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I fear that they do not.PS: no marzipan in the US? Boy that should be a tough life...They truly live a benighted life across the Atlantic.Do you think they don't have "toad in the hole" or "spotted dicks" either???
Bocklin
Ah, but you would be wrong. There is a town near me, Rhinebeck NY, where I have eaten spotted dick and toad in a hole.
So there. phhhhbt!
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I am concerned about the way things seem to be going. Your suggestion that D&D needed a turnaround in regard to volcabulary usage just seemed to me to be the exact wrong direction.So Jade, you would say that Dungeons vocabulary needs to increased? Or, that the words in a typical Dungeon adventure need to be more obscure? I mean simpler is the wrong direction so then even more complicated words would be the right direction?
You assume my point is that I'm saying Dungeon's word usage needs to become more obscure? Are you serious? I refuse to believe that's where your reading comprehension is at. I think you're twisting the reality of my argument against me, assigning values to my argument that you know I never intended because it's easier to argue that way. It's also an ideal way to ensure never finding common ground.
I will spell this out for you. Simpler isn't the wrong direction. Your attitude towards learning the language is the wrong direction. It's quite a popular attitude these days and the long term effects are storied throughout history. When the intellectual class collapses, so follows the society in short order.
Hear hear! Well said, Jade! Well said.
Do you think they don't have "toad in the hole" or "spotted dicks" either???Em... should I recognize these (as a fellow european:-)) ?
Not really, I was just tickling Aubrey's over-developped sense of UK Pride. ;-)
By the way: Niederegger as reference? Well chosen. Probably the best marzipan producer ever...
Bocklin
While I was first tempted to write a response in regards to the merit of various types of marzipan (which you would be more likely to put in the tureen, not vice versa, unless I miss my mark) and their availability in the US, I had to remember there was a topic in there somewhere.
I love Neideregger myself, I currently am working my way in incremental bites through one of their dark-chocolate cappucino marzipan bars. The thing is so intense I can only really eat a square or two a day. This also proves that marzipan is fairly commonly available, at least here in NY, as are (as mentioned above) spotted dick, sticky toffee pudding and as of the last few years, petat. Having spent the first ten years of my life in the UK and the Netherlands, I actively seek out these treats and I could see how someone who didn't grow up with them would never think to look for such things.
We live in a multicultural, globo-local, globally loco world, and I applaud Dungeon for not dumbing down in the face of the greatest info-paradigm conflation of the last 2,000 years. So many are tempted to use their own lack of intelligence as its own defense when all around us, the walls of ignorance are being dismantled. Information floods us every day in multiple languages, idioms and styles. I was in Times Square last night and the place looks like a set from Blade Runner. All around, news tickers and billboards deliver information at breakneck pace, and we as a species are micro-evolving into information sucking cyborgs. Who isn't wired into multiple machines at any given time? PDA's, Cell Phones, iPods, GPS's, not to mention artificial hearts, pacemakers and the lot of those miniature life-saving computers, which feed data to our very bloodstream.
I know I am struggling to get back to the original gist, but I wanted to say that I support Dungeon's staff 100%. I wouldn't want to read a Dungeon that was dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. There is too much of that in the world as a reaction to the breakneck pace of globalization and the breakdown of cultural barriers. I want to be challenged while I play an imagination-driven game to imagine, to think, to learn, to adapt. I often think of the differences between a video game and PnP, one of the most poignant is that aside from hand-eye coordination (arguably not learned, but trained), I have learned little, if anything from video games.
Since its inception, over 30+ years ago, and since I started playing 24 years ago, D&D has helped teach me and others like me mythology, drawing, drafting, vocabulary, math, group skills, people skills, among many many other valuable things... I would hope that Dungeon would continue to carry on that proud tradition and help to challenge and educate people, rather than bend one inch towards the middle of the curve. I have faith that the folks at Dungeon won't be swayed and will continue delivering high quality, well written material. After all, it is a compliment to us gamers that they feel that we are capable of handling that level of product.
Thank You for that and everything else,
-Sylvan
...awesome Zork reference and funniest overstatement of the century
lol!
If anything hanexes, Jade's point is proven by how effectively he is able to accost you with his arguments due to his use of language that is at once advanced and tittilating.
I liken to my own means of teaching children. I purposefully use "big words" when I teach my high school classes out here in Hawaii.
That way when a kid goes: "What does redoublement mean?"
I get to go: "That's a very good question Suzy. Redoublment is a removal of your blade from your opponent's to choose a new line of attack for a thrust often executed in a piston-like movement. In the case I just used it Suzy it simply means to continue your attack on someone/something in a physical or abstract ideological or verbal engagement with a change in tact that will hopefully see you to victory."
Then I say: "Or in other words Suzy, it means: IT'S ON LIKE DONKEY KONG GIRLFRIEND!!!"
Then Suzy never forgets what redoublement means ever again.
Wow, Nic. I hope a kid named Johnny never asks that question. He's gonna be really confused why you keep calling him Suzy.
:D
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PS: no marzipan in the US? Boy that should be a tough life...
They truly live a benighted life across the Atlantic.
Do you think they don't have "toad in the hole" or "spotted dicks" either???
Bocklin
I fear that they do not.
Ah, but you would be wrong. There is a town near me, Rhinebeck NY, where I have eaten spotted dick and toad in a hole.
So there. phhhhbt!
I'm afraid that eating a toad whilst sitting in a hole doesn't count. Nor does a dose of the clap.
The main thing I notice is that roughly half those words in the third linky about Gene Wolfe's arcane verbiage aren't so arcane to me for some reason....
Well, yes, of course. We all read DONJON magazine, don't we? ;)
Ya know...there's reasons that we don't have many English dishes over here... ;)
I've had a few English dishes in my day.
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I fear that they do not.PS: no marzipan in the US? Boy that should be a tough life...They truly live a benighted life across the Atlantic.Do you think they don't have "toad in the hole" or "spotted dicks" either???
Bocklin
Were it not for Patrick O'Brien and his character's passionate love of a good pudding, I would have sworn you guys were being dirty.
I'd still love to know what a 'drowned baby' looks and tastes like.
Have you gotten over them yet?Ya know...there's reasons that we don't have many English dishes over here... ;)I've had a few English dishes in my day.
Other way around m'boy, other way around. ;)
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"snicker-snack!"I'd be more worried about the gyre and gimble attack of the slithy toves.
Or is that a movement form?
Feh, they'll be no problem with my vorpal sw....
...wait a second...
You've just inspired me to include a +1 vorpal longsword in my next campaign. When the party gets it legend lore'd, they will learn that its name is 'Snickersnack' and that it was used by an ancient gnomish warrior against a mythical creature known only as the 'Jabberwock.'
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You've just inspired me to include a +1 vorpal longsword in my next campaign. When the party gets it legend lore'd, they will learn that its name is 'Snickersnack' and that it was used by an ancient gnomish warrior against a mythical creature known only as the 'Jabberwock.'"snicker-snack!"I'd be more worried about the gyre and gimble attack of the slithy toves.
Or is that a movement form?
Feh, they'll be no problem with my vorpal sw....
...wait a second...
I've heard that the creature was very manxome.
cso
Wow, this post keeps growing. In response to the comments about the words:
melee, grapple, thaumaturgy. eldritch, kukri, falchion
and indeed (bit, byte, relational database ect).
Those words are a part of the system. They are central to the POINT of the text. While a manual on how to install a toilet might have words I do not know, I expect them to be toilet related (e.g. flange, flush valve, flapper).
I obviously am in the minority here, and I think my frustration is that I want some simple path to an adventure that I have little time to prepare. I am not reading dungeon for the fun of reading it, or for artistic value, or to educate myself (thats why I go to school), I am reading it quite simply because in a few hours I have a game to run. Over the years I have noticed Dungeon come closer to having a format that is meant to quickly help me run a game. This whole thread has enlightened me that this is not the publishers only goal, and most of the readers agree with that. I disagree.
I own all those AEG 6 page adventure pamphlets, I thought they were awesome because in minutes I understood the adventure. Sure I had to make changes/additions, but I have to do that to Dungeon adventures also.
With regards to Jade's quote "if D&D offers the chance to expand one's capacities in any manner, especially in children who could always benefit from the best education possible, it's a bleepin' miracle product." I agree, but the first step is to get them actually reading the magazine, which the editors seem to be saying isn't really happening. Perhaps dumbing down the text might actually help the children by encouraging them to read it. It works with comics right?
Anyways, enough with this thread :) You guys win, tureen is a hugely popular word that everyone knows, I just ate some tureen today. (hah) While I may want Dungeon to be simpler, shorter and more to the point of the actual adventure, that is not what the editors want, and it seems not what the majority of the readers want.
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You've just inspired me to include a +1 vorpal longsword in my next campaign. When the party gets it legend lore'd, they will learn that its name is 'Snickersnack' and that it was used by an ancient gnomish warrior against a mythical creature known only as the 'Jabberwock.'
Glad to help Fatespinner, though someone else started the jabberwocky theme before me.
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PS: no marzipan in the US? Boy that should be a tough life...They truly live a benighted life across the Atlantic.Do you think they don't have "toad in the hole" or "spotted dicks" either???
Bocklin
I fear that they do not.I'm afraid that eating a toad whilst sitting in a hole doesn't count. Nor does a dose of the clap.Ah, but you would be wrong. There is a town near me, Rhinebeck NY, where I have eaten spotted dick and toad in a hole.
So there. phhhhbt!
ROFLMAO!
I agree, but the first step is to get them actually reading the magazine, which the editors seem to be saying isn't really happening. Perhaps dumbing down the text might actually help the children by encouraging them to read it. It works with comics right?
Don't worry... me again, but the main subject is dropped. :)
Perhaps volcabulary frightens some off, but I'd assume the main reason why a multitude of children aren't rushing to the newstands for their latest copy of Dungeon may attribute to some other reasons entirely:
a) Dungeon does not provide cheat tips for videogames and worse, is not a videogame magazine. I'm no expert but I'd imagine most kids don't regularly keep up with anything but videogame and music mags. Kids at the Wind in the Willows reading level probably aren't looking to read D&D adventures for fun. I was, but then I was a strange child kept chained in a basement and fed traveling salesmen by my mom. It was a non traditional upbringing and the blood... all... that... blood...
b) They're may not be a wealth of young DMs with a working grasp of the rather complex canon.
c) Dungeon may be a bit pricey for a kid. Then again, that depends on allowances. When I was a kid I did chores for nothing and the lazy kid next door got a crisp twenty dollar bill every Friday just for bein' special I guess.
d) Because this adventure I'm writing has yet to be pitched, accepted and printed. I hear tell through the grapevine that until I start pumping adventurey goodness through Paizo's veins kid's just aren't going to bite.
I agree, but the first step is to get them actually reading the magazine, which the editors seem to be saying isn't really happening. Perhaps dumbing down the text might actually help the children by encouraging them to read it. It works with comics right?
Don't worry... me again, but the main subject is dropped. :)
Perhaps volcabulary frightens some off, but I'd assume the main reason why a multitude of children aren't rushing to the newstands for their latest copy of Dungeon may attribute to some other reasons entirely:
a) Dungeon does not provide cheat tips for videogames and worse, is not a videogame magazine. I'm no expert but I'd imagine most kids don't regularly keep up with anything but videogame and music mags. Kids at the Wind in the Willows reading level probably aren't looking to read D&D adventures for fun. I was, but then I was a strange child kept chained in a basement and fed traveling salesmen by my mom. It was a non traditional upbringing and the blood... all... that... blood...
b) They're may not be a wealth of young DMs with a working grasp of the rather complex canon.
c) Dungeon may be a bit pricey for a kid. Then again, that depends on allowances. When I was a kid I did chores for nothing and the lazy kid next door got a crisp twenty dollar bill every Friday just for bein' special I guess.
d) Because this adventure I'm writing has yet to be pitched, accepted and printed. I hear tell through the grapevine that until I start pumping adventurey goodness through Paizo's veins kid's just aren't going to bite. Poor deprived scamps. Please, won't you give?
Wow, Nic. I hope a kid named Johnny never asks that question. He's gonna be really confused why you keep calling him Suzy.
:D
lol!
Or I could shape the rest of his life for him by steadfastedly refusing to call him anything but Suzy. ;-)
Perhaps dumbing down the text might actually help the children by encouraging them to read it. It works with comics right?
No, the median age of the average comic-book reader is now the mid-twenties (early 30s is what some comic book dealer told me once). That's probably similar to the average D&D player.
Kids don't generally don't play D&D, or read comics, or play with marbles any more. They play videogames in vast quantities, especially the ones that - like GTA - they can't legally play. I'm glad there are still magazines like Dungeon that can tempt a few kids to read and exercise their minds and imaginations, and I certainly wouldn't want to dumb it down even one notch for them.
I would like to say that I am currently 18, and have been playing D&D for 7 years. Now, upon seeing the words the OP uses to show the esoteric and confounding vocabulary within the text, I was flabbergasted.
Enough lip. I knew all three of those words, however, I also read books at a speed most people associate with magazines. So I took a quick check on...sigh...MySpace. Of the responders, 5 in total, who were aged between 16 and 18, 4 knew marzipan, 3 knew proboscis, and one knew tureen.
So these aren't exactly the toughest cookies.
Anyways, enough with this thread :) You guys win, tureen is a hugely popular word that everyone knows, I just ate some tureen today. (hah) While I may want Dungeon to be simpler, shorter and more to the point of the actual adventure, that is not what the editors want, and it seems not what the majority of the readers want.
I do hope that "we" did not "win", as this means that you "lose". This thread is not a competition who knows the most obscure words, or who talks the loudest. You voiced you complaints, and most of the posters here disagreed with your PoV. What it comes down to is obviously different expectations on your part from the majority of posters and readers, even if it proved difficult to pin down the core of the disagreement.
Stefan
By the way: Niederegger as reference? Well chosen. Probably the best marzipan producer ever...Bocklin
Well, marzipan from Lübeck has a quite a name. And why aim for less than the best?
Stefan
who will probably go and buy some Niederegger stuff today, just to honot this thread.
(...)even if it proved difficult to pin down the core of the disagreement.
Stefan
I thought it was about little Johnny eating Marzipan in a Mancunian Pub while Nic Logue calls him "Suzy" and we throw tureen at each other??
(...)even if it proved difficult to pin down the core of the disagreement.
Stefan
I thought it was about little Johnny eating Marzipan in a Mancunian Pub while Nic Logue calls him "Suzy" and we throw tureen at each other??
Now that's my kind of game.
...and we throw tureen at each other??
Oh yeah, lets make tureen throwing an olympic discipline!
Two categories come to mind: empty and filled tureens, filled varies between solid (like marzipan) and liquid (like brains after reading this thread - now that would be a treat for Aberzombie - liquefied brains with marzipan toppings:-))
Stefan
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You guys win, tureen is a hugely popular word that everyone knows, I just ate some tureen today. (hah) While I may want Dungeon to be simpler, shorter and more to the point of the actual adventure, that is not what the editors want, and it seems not what the majority of the readers want.
Echoing another poster, this is genuine conversation, so it's not about 'winning'. Here's my sincere question for you, Hanexs. Regardless of the reasons and after reflecting upon this thread, do you still feel that the Dungeon writers/editors are somehow 'wrong' for using words that you don't happen to know?
Here's a good recipe for marzipan; it is a popular dessert item in continental Europe, but I've never seen it here in the US. Which is a shame, 'cause it is DELICIOUS. Yum!Seriously?
The USA (and Canada) does not stock Marzipan?
Wow! I've never felt so priviledged to live in the UK before...What about christmas cakes over there? In the UK we have big fruit cakes, with Marzipan on the top, and then covered in a dense layer of icing. Do you not have this either? Or is there a substitute when it comes to the Marzipan layer? Intrigued UK readers want to know...
Personally, I hate marzipan. It ruins cakes. The worst offender of all being the half an inch thick marzipan under the rock hard icing on those equally digusting fruit cakes you find at christmas. Those overly rich blocks of barf should be punishment not treats! :P
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Fruitcake with marzipan and icing? Wow... that sounds like quite the workout - one I have never seen anywhere before. Being Norwegian, I can't really speak for what Americans consume for Christmas treats, but the Norwegian tradition is to trade marzipan figures (pigs being the most common)with your friends and then eat 'em. Some cover their marzipan with chocolate, but I prefer it "natural". Also, a popular summery treat is baking big cream cakes with a thin top layer of marzipan. Gotta agree with R-Type here: too much of the stuff becomes rather unappealing.
I'm hungry now...
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Personally, I hate marzipan. It ruins cakes. The worst offender of all being the half an inch thick marzipan under the rock hard icing on those equally digusting fruit cakes you find at christmas. Those overly rich blocks of barf should be punishment not treats! :P
Bestow Marzipan
Conjuration (creation, EVIL)Cleric 5
Components: V,S,M/F
Range: Touch, no touchbacks
Duration: Permanent until eaten or special
Saving Throw: None
SR: None
As Bestow Curse, but victim is forever saddled with a fruit cake covered in thick marzipan and icing. Not even a Wish or Miracle will rid the target of this great burdon. Only those with stong enough stomachs to actually consume the sickly sweet confection (usually fiends, aberrations and any character with the Canadian template) can ever hope to rid themselves of this sugary lodestone. The only other way to rid onself of this curse is by taking the "regifting" hellspawned feat, where the curse of marzipan may be bestowed upon another unsuspecting fool in one year's time.
Material component: ground almond paste, sugar, and concentrated hate
Actually, I enjoy the stuff in small amounts. Probably because of my inherited template. :)
Here's my sincere question for you, Hanexs. Regardless of the reasons and after reflecting upon this thread, do you still feel that the Dungeon writers/editors are somehow 'wrong' for using words that you don't happen to know?
Well I don't know. It appears some readers subscribe to Dungeon to extend their vocabulary. It appears some readers subscribe to Dungeon for the joy of reading. I am not one of those subscribers. I subscribe to dungeon for adventures, the kind that are easy to run and implement (aka I do not need to open a dictionary to understand them). The endless architecture jargon in Dungeon for example annoys me. I would rather the attention be on tactics, dm only maps, charactter motivations, which are sometimes notably absent in adventures than on the particular architectural style of the rooms or the dish a waiter is carrying.
I have always loved Dungeon, but occasionally I read an adventure and say, "man they screwed this up". What I realize after reflection is that the publishers are not only out to make easy and fun adventures (which is what I want). They have other priorities and the readers are ok with that. For example:
Another priority that has been mentioned in this thread is to extend the vocabulary of their readers.
e.g. "part of the joy of reading is learning new words." - Erik (I am not looking for this joy)
"Part of [being] a gamer, is to be constantly on the lookout for ways to expand your verbal/written skills," - 13garth13
I thought the youth was a very important demographic to Dungeon and therefore they strived to make adventure as clear as possible, I appear to be wrong (e.g. "Our target audience is not kids" - James Jacobs, "we're not really worried about shooting over anybody's heads" - James Sutter).
I thought the read aloud parts were meant to be read aloud, it appears many readers change them to suit their players vocab and that they are fine with that. (e.g. "I usually try to prep enough for an adventure that I can paraphrase or ad-lib these descriptions" - Mothman)
So what I am saying is I had assumptions about Dungeon that were wrong. I am not subscribing to this magazine to expand my vocabulary, but it appears I am in the minority.
Whats a "Tojbasrrige"?
Good evening hanexs- there's a dish called gooducken which is a goose with a duck stuffed in it and a hen stuffed inside both - all the carcasses are boned. Tojbasarrirge is a tojanda wth a basilisk with an arrowhawk with a stirge in, folowing the same logic. As to the other words, I remember the quote at the start of sinister secret of saltmarsh:
'Now this module is written in the English which I use and may therefore appear slightly different in flavor from the language
to which the majority of its readers will be accustomed. In one sense I make no apologies for this; it is an English module and it
would be less than representative if it did not carry something of that atmosphere. In another sense, I am aware that some
readers might therefore find the reading slightly unfamiliar, and if this in any way detracts from their enjoyment of the module,
then my apologies are due'
I'm afraid words like pavonine, brobdingnagian and etiolated will continue to surface from time to time in my original submissions as, like Erik, I enjoy using these words and D&D paid a big part in giving me the love of the language and its use, which is one reason why I think roleplaying is so awesome. I hope that you'll have fun telling your players what these things are and they don't detract from the adventures:)
Rich
And I love the tureen story further down the boards - splendid!
So what I am saying is I had assumptions about Dungeon that were wrong. I am not subscribing to this magazine to expand my vocabulary, but it appears I am in the minority.
No one subscribes to Dungeon to expand vocabulary, Hanexs. Most people don't buy books, newspapers, comics, etc. with the sole purpose of expanding vocabulary. What you should already understand is that you'll find new words in all texts, and it's up to the reader (you) to do your part and educate yourself. As many have said, that's part of the importance of reading.
The fact that you're subtly implying that Dungeon is somehow wrong for daring to introduce you to new words (essentially asking you to educate yourself) is rather lame, and I'm surprised you'd expect any sympathy here or on any gaming forum.
Only those with stong enough stomachs to actually consume the sickly sweet confection (usually fiends, aberrations and any character with the Canadian template) can ever hope to rid themselves of this sugary lodestone.
Heh. Silly non-Canadians, fruitcakes aren't meant to be eaten, they're meant to be inherited. Mine was passed down from my gran' pappy to my pappy, even when he was imprisoned in Vietnam. You don't want to know where he hid it.
I didn't catch anyone saying that the joy of reading or volcabulary building was THE reason they subscribed the Dungeon. Misunderstanding the very clear thoughts of these contributors causes every potential path to resolution to mist over.
As I've said, there are words one doesn't know everywhere and anywhere but if most of the readership understand the words presented then the responsibility must sit squarely with the reader who finds themselves unversed.
And Rich, there is nothing wrong with Brobdignagian. Worry not. I use it in every day speech when I'm feeling colorful and if someone needs a primer in Swift, I give it to them on the spot in under ten seconds. No harm done.
Obviously expanding their vocabulary isn't the ONLY reason people are subscribing, that is not what I meant to imply. I read plenty of books to broaden my horizons, I am currently reading "Right side up" by Paul Wells, and just bought "Fiasco" by Thom. Ricks. If these books have words I don't understand, then that will be acceptable to me. They are both political books and I am sure there are plenty of political words I do not know (caucus, hah).
But Dungeon has never been in the same category as books like these for me. It is a tool for me. I do not read adventures to for the fun of reading them. I go through the mag and read the synopsis of each adventure, if it seems like something that would fit my campaign then I read it (I find half the adventures are indeed ones I would like to run btw). I almost never read the eberron or the oriental adventures (although one day I might in a new campaign).
I do not want anything in the adventures to get in the way of me running them as quickly as possible (yes even big words). I do not want anything in the adventures that I have to modify for my players (yes "plinth" I am looking at you here). So upon reflection of this thread and the joy everyone has related when they encounter a new word, I realize that the other readers and indeed the editors view Dungeons purpose differently than I do. Oh well. :)
Then I guess it's just a difference in our expectations from Dungeon. Fair enough.
Personally, my eye can't read through crunch with color, so I'm a pig in zen whenever a Dungeon arrives all dripping in spicy brilliance sauce.
Mmm... taste the eloquence.
Oh and Richard I loved the adventure! It was a breath of fresh air in my campaign. My players all left amazed. One of my players that always plays a barbarian said to me, "You know, I realize that there is more to D&D then just fighting and dungeons....." That was priceless.
I also loved 99% of the words in it :) j/k
Jade, I don't have the same feeling when Dungeon hits my door. I keep them for the days when I need a quick adventure. If I were reading, I would much rather read political, philosophy or even fantasy books. In fact, sometimes while I am reading it, I am annoyed that I have to, I would much rather pay for someone to put the idea in my head. Suffice it to say I really resent the prep time of being a DM. I just got the new Dungeon in, and the only adventure I read was "Riding the Rails", it just seemed so cool and different. I am also staying away from Savage Tide adventures as the prophecy of doom, and one theme campaign idea is starting to wear really thin on me.
PS. Oh and I always read campaign workbook. It is just so darn usefull. I would definetely buy a book with a collection of all these articles.
Jade, I don't have the same feeling when Dungeon hits my door. I keep them for the days when I need a quick adventure. If I were reading, I would much rather read political, philosophy or even fantasy books. In fact, sometimes while I am reading it, I am annoyed that I have to, I would much rather pay for someone to put the idea in my head.
Well since Lawnmower Man/Matrix uploads aren't the order of the day I'm afraid it's still going to be symbol recognition for the time being. I myself wouldn't mind slamming techincal information into my brain in a modified tanning bed.
I certainly read things besides Dungeon as well, though truth be told, I spend most of my time writing, not reading. I'd say I understand at least 70 percent of the words I use. The remainder are just fancy guesses and I'm hoping no one out there will notice or call me on them.