Five ships? That's the invading force? Give me a freaking break! Why would the PC's even bother with all of the side quests when they will have two battle ready ships to fight them with (More if they capture one of the ships from the CBH ambush in SWW). I'm going to have to at least double the number.
Five ships? That's the invading force? I'm going to have to at least double the number.
Five ships, 3 golems, and 3 (or potentially up to 6, with "summon demons" ability) vrocks. And the vrocks are REALLY nasty at the end, when your PCs have already used all their good spells against the ships and the yuan-ti, and are at reduced hp to boot... I see the demons as the main threat to the party; the lousy pirates are just there to pillage the place after the PCs are dead and the settlement is near-helpless. If you allow each vrock to summon one fellow, then 5 ships is MORE than enough to wipe Farshore off the map.
OOOOOOOOOOOh.
Can Vrocks shape change? Having them turn into anthropomorphic albatrosses instead of vulture men might be powerful psychological warfare...Nobody wants no Ryme written about their Ancient Mariner self.
you're one weird wolf, h-man...
Creative Director
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Five ships? That's the invading force? Give me a freaking break! Why would the PC's even bother with all of the side quests when they will have two battle ready ships to fight them with (More if they capture one of the ships from the CBH ambush in SWW). I'm going to have to at least double the number.
The secret is this: it doesn't really matter how many ships invade Farshore, since the PCs don't ever really interact with the bulk of the invading force. They're supposed to take on the key high-level encounters (golems, yuan-ti, etc.), not waste their time blowing up pirates.
If they DO waste their time trying to kill all the pirates for the colonists, they won't get the Victory Points for the majority of the encounters during the battle. If they've built up enough points during the adventure, that won't matter, but if they haven't done well to that point, the battle becomes more key to them.
In any case, if the PCs don't bother with side quests or rebuilding Farshore, and only focus on the battle at the end, they won't be able to protect Farshore. The best they can hope for is a Pyhrric victory in which many of the colonists are killed and buildings are destroyed.
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I think the point is that the PC's at that level might be able to take down the 4th level pirates as a whole. What they wouldn't be able to prevent is the massacre of the citizens of Farshore by said pirates before that point. There is only about four of them (PCs), after all - they can't be everywhere. The pirates are effectively an amorphous mob attacking the town - the PCs are specifically challenged by the vrocks, Vanthus and a few other nasties, which would obliterate low level commoners and experts with ease. The pirate stats are given more for the odd incident where the PCs might come across them - but it should be the citizenry fighting the bulk of them off, off-screen.
If the PCs don't care about the citizens of Farshore, of course, then maybe you need more pirates to "challenge" them if they are feeling genocidal. But I presume enough would get through to torch an undefended, unfortified Farshore, rub out any useful NPCs, and generally make the Isle of Dread that much more dreadful for the PCs, even if they would have their victory in the end.
I think the point is that the PC's at that level might be able to take down the 4th level pirates as a whole. What they wouldn't be able to prevent is the massacre of the citizens of Farshore by said pirates before that point. There is only about four of them (PCs), after all - they can't be everywhere. The pirates are effectively an amorphous mob attacking the town - the PCs are specifically challenged by the vrocks, Vanthus and a few other nasties, which would obliterate low level commoners and experts with ease. The pirate stats are given more for the odd incident where the PCs might come across them - but it should be the citizenry fighting the bulk of them off, off-screen.
If the PCs don't care about the citizens of Farshore, of course, then maybe you need more pirates to "challenge" them if they are feeling genocidal. But I presume enough would get through to torch an undefended, unfortified Farshore, rub out any useful NPCs, and generally make the Isle of Dread that much more dreadful for the PCs, even if they would have their victory in the end.
And what if they Take Farshore out of the equation all together? It has a protected bay. Two or three ships could mount a defense outside of the bay itself making sure no one gets to land. Turning the beaches into Normandy would bottle neck an invading ground force and they could be cut to pieces by archers. With the way that the Crimson Fleet aproches the Island, there is no reason to assume that the Pc's or the Island defenders will wait for them to land on the island. Especially if they have close to equal numbers (Like taking one of the Scarlet Brotherhood ships from SWW). IF this isn't added into the equation of posibilities it should be. Otherwise you risk railroading you players into following the scenario exactly the way the modual is laid out, and with experienced players this will piss them off, even if they don't say anything.
True, but that just means the key adventure points (Vrocks, Vanthus, etc) just happen earlier. Sure, a PC could fireball a ship or two, but consider the following:
Round 1, ship A is fireballed by PCs, most on deck die from blast, some survive due to cover and size of blast limits. Ships B-E lock in course, all hands go below deck.
Round 2, another fireball, but most targets are no longer vunerable, being below deck. Potions of fire resist are being drunk (the crimson fleet is a well funded and experienced pirate crew, nothing like the ratty scarlet brotherhood ship the PCs encountered in SWW).
Round 3+, ships continue on course, which either results in collision with PC ships, or sailing past into the harbor. Battle commences as written.
This also takes not at all into account the Vrocks and the Yuan Ti "Artillery". If the PCs have two or three ships, good for them. The Yuan Ti can fireball them just as well as they can fireball back, and you bet the Yuan Ti will drink a potion of fire resist. Or the Vrock battle can happen early, with the Vrocks distracting the PCs while the ships sail past merrily. If anything, this works better for experienced players, because after dealing with the vrocks and the ships getting past, it makes sense to them why the encounters are set up the way they are, rather than a meat grinder battle with pirates. They might decide to get back to Lavina (if she isn't already with them) making for a dash through town, stopping what pirates they can, and getting to Lavina just as Vanthus does.
Hope these ideas help! Any sarcasm I use is entirely for theatrical purposes, and my opinions are just that: opinions. Good gaming!
(SPOILERS)
I agree with Blackdragon: the party could attack the invading force before it enters the bay. Think of the druid or the wizard PCs, polymorphed into aquatic monsters or summoning some dinosaurs, that try to sink the ships. Think of the great Control Winds spell, used to block or sink the entire fleet! The only hope for the Crimson Fleet would be to counterattack with the teleporting vrocks.
This is the most logical way of facing the attack, because it leaves the village mostly untouched. Why not? Some of the combat encounters, especially the climax fight, could then take place there.
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Creative Director
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(SPOILERS)
I agree with Blackdragon: the party could attack the invading force before it enters the bay. Think of the druid or the wizard PCs, polymorphed into aquatic monsters or summoning some dinosaurs, that try to sink the ships. Think of the great Control Winds spell, used to block or sink the entire fleet! The only hope for the Crimson Fleet would be to counterattack with the teleporting vrocks.
This is the most logical way of facing the attack, because it leaves the village mostly untouched. Why not? Some of the combat encounters, especially the climax fight, could then take place there.
This is certainly an exciting option for PCs who feel tough, but remember, if they face down the 5 ships on the open sea (or even just in front of the harbor) they'll basically end up having to fight, at the same time:
150 CR 4 pirates (many of which will be using ballistae and catapults against their ships)
4 flesh golems (good for defending ships, or if the pirates get crazy, they're scary imprompto catapult missiles)
4 yuan ti (one of which has a wand of enlarged fireballs, which'll hurt any defending ships)
3 vrocks (or 6 if they summon aid successfully)
Vanthus himself
All in all, that's about an EL 16 or 17 encounter. Pretty rough stuff for a group of 10th level characters.
The primary reason we DIDN'T go with this scenarior is that it absolutely relies on ship-to-ship combat rules, which are rather extensive. We printed some pared-down from Stormwrack rules in "Sea Wyvern's Wake," but that was for a simple one-on-one ship battle, not a mass battle like this one. Since we can't assume all readers have Stormwrack (or some means of running naval battles), and since the adventure was already very huge and didn't allow us to reprint the rules, we decided the best way to present the final battle was to have the PCs defending Farshore.
Honestly, either way works fine. In my Saturday "Savage Tide" campaign, I'm going to let the PCs decide how to confront the pirates. They might choose open sea confrontation, or they might choose to fight from Farshore.
Keep in mind also that an open sea confrontation is a lot more dangerous for the PCs, since they're outnumbered and probably outmatched by the pirates, at least as far as sea battle resources are concerned. And not every group is going to have a barrage of fireballs handy.
When I first got my notes for writing this adventure, I thought "There's going to be a ton of posts on the Paizo boards about how to handle the end battle."
Simply put, what is presented in Tides of Dread is an easy way to handle the pirate battle without forcing the DM into running a whole lot of complicated fights. If you like more complex, crunchy stuff and are a competent enough DM to pull it off, then go for it!
To answer the original poster's complaint, 5 ships full of experienced killers bolstered with spellcasters and backed by the Demon Prince of the Abyss himself is more than enough to handle a bunch of farmers and a few competent warriors. Which is how they will be looking at it.
As to outmaneuvering the invading force and winning the battle before it reaches Farshore, well, like I said what is presented is the most probable way of handling the fight and probably the easiest. However, if you decide to get all clever on the pirates, just keep in mind that they're pretty clever too. Vanthus has been one step ahead of the PCs throughout the entire AP up to this point. Don't rob him of his craftiness and ability to plan for all contingencies at this point. It's assumed that he will be killed here, but that doesn't mean it's not going to cost the PCs dearly.
Doh! James beat me by 44 seconds!
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Creative Director
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Doh! James beat me by 44 seconds!
HA!
Nevertheless... Steve's words are good.
And finally, it bears repeating from other threads: If you allow your PCs to build characters using the entire range of WotC releases (PHB2, Complete Mage, Psionics, Incarnum, etc.), keep in mind that they'll be able to focus and power up their characters far more than if they were limited to just the Core Books. In this case, you should certainly extend the same access to the Savage Tide's villians. The mooks don't matter, but Vanthus and the other named NPCs could certainly benefit from some number crunching...
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When Morgan assaulted Panama in 1670, he assembled the biggest buccaneer fleet to ever sail the Caribbean; this consisted of 38 ships and 2,000 men, to attack a city of 6,000.
5 ships and 150 men, plus a passel of demons and yuan ti, doesn't sound too bad. What's the pop. of Farshore, anyhow?
Farshore's population is 220. Most of whom aren't that much in a fight.
but i bet someone has seen Evil Dead... "this is my boomstick.. shop smart, k-mart, 99,95.. shells.."
And defeating a beseieging enemy using technology :D
Every time I read this chapter, I had the theme from "The A-Team" running through my head.
Ultimately, it just depends on how big of a threat the PCs make of themselves. Technically, the only enemy who even remotely knows of their strength is Vanthus, and he hasn't personally seen them since they were level 2 (Parrot Island trapdoor scene). There's a big difference between burning hands or 1 attack a round, and empowered fireball and 3 per round, maybe more. (Wizard and Fighter for 2nd to 11th level comparison.)
So, if the PCs make a lot of noise, they could be noticed by Vanthus, who would then probably adopt a "They survived Parrot Island, and are here?!?! Take no chances! All guns, fire!!" mentality.
As tough as the PCs are, an alpha strike of yuan-ti fireballs, ballista, flaming catapault pitch (or flesh golems, as mentioned earlier), a host of pirates with crossbows and scimitars, 3 to 6 dancing vrocks, and a cold hearted "take no prisoners" half-fiend with a personal vendetta (they did escape Parrot Island, which means they thwarted one of his brilliant plans!) might be a bit much for even heroes to weather at this point.
Especially considering the only other truly combat oriented NPCs are the Jade Ravens, who are experiencing internal friction, and Lavina, who as their boss should be protected, not on the front lines. The defense of Farshore is the PCs priority, and while an all out assault on the ships before they land is a theoretically good idea, it definitely counts as an "all eggs in one basket" plan, if the PCs don't have a way to quickly regroup in the city, recover, and then meet the pirates on land. And barring heavy transportive magic, healing, and solid planning, that might not be likely.
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When Morgan assaulted Panama in 1670, he assembled the biggest buccaneer fleet to ever sail the Caribbean; this consisted of 38 ships and 2,000 men, to attack a city of 6,000.
I've read somewhere that a large pirate 'fleet' was anything with more than 10 ships (that could carry cannon) - and when you start thinking of pirate tactics, they try to scare their oponants, not face them head on. Also if you sail your ships out to meet the pirates, depending on how well you have outfitted the ships, and what crew from any captured ships are trained gunners? how many of these gunners stay on once reaching fareshore? Do the captured ship(s) even make it or were they lost in the storms? I have a feeling that the pirates have more guns and more traind gunners then the PCs plus 2-3 more ships...
You can always increase the numbers involved, if it makes the battle more believable, even if the local militia gets to handle them instead of the adventurers.
Perhaps the @150 level four fighters are simply the first wave and if the players do poorly more will follow? After all, it isn't the total crew of the ships, which is probably well above 150 strong, but how many can be brought ashore by rowboats in one movement?
If the first wave is wiped out, the top dogs(yuan-ti, golems, vrocks, and Vanthus) are taken down, rapid surrender and flight would be the most likely response.
I don't know where Farshore would get many ships of their own. As best I can see, if the party salvages their own ship, Farshore has ONE to stand off the pirate fleet at the entrance to the harbor. A few fireballs followed by a boarding party could be an exciting battle sequence, and if the party counterattacks and takes the enemy ship, then takes out a second, have the remainder begin to fight among themselves as the rank and file face stubborn officers. This would lead to the many prizes and salvage for Farshore.
Just as mopping up begins an enraged Vanthus flies over the party with his vrocks to target his sister.
Farshore's population is 220. Most of whom aren't that much in a fight.
Why wouldn't more of the population be skilled with combat? They are living on the Isle of Dread! Even with the wall, there are huge amounts of dinosaurs that can fly or swim around it. There are all of the intelligent tribes, including lizard men, and the demons from HTBM, never mind pirates as a whole. I would think that these people have rudimentary combat skills, spell casters, druids and healers of their own. Most evey farmer would have a bow (Or a musket if your using firearms). I really think you are comparing the population to a regular city of comparable size and not an extreme outpost on one of the most dangerouse islands D&D has ever created.
Farshore's population is 220. Most of whom aren't that much in a fight.Why wouldn't more of the population be skilled with combat? They are living on the Isle of Dread! Even with the wall, there are huge amounts of dinosaurs that can fly or swim around it. There are all of the intelligent tribes, including lizard men, and the demons from HTBM, never mind pirates as a whole. I would think that these people have rudimentary combat skills, spell casters, druids and healers of their own. Most evey farmer would have a bow (Or a musket if your using firearms). I really think you are comparing the population to a regular city of comparable size and not an extreme outpost on one of the most dangerouse islands D&D has ever created.
Blackdragon, the colony is not ON the Isle of Dread. Rather it is on a small islet called Temute about 8-10 miles away from the southeastern peninsula inhabited by some of the Olman tribes. Thus, it's a fairly "safe" place from which to mount small expeditions and to trade with the natives around them.
Have you actually read the adventure yet?
And even if they did know how to defend themselves, you're talking at most one or two levels in Warrior. Sure, they might be able to defend themselves somewhat but they are no match for pirates, vrocks, and flesh golems.
As has been posted up-thread, five armed vessels is quite a fleet for a small-scale invasion. Most pirates controlled only a few ships, after all, and we are talking about an attack on a couple-hundred colonists.
Edit: Got the numbers backwards. Oops!
Farshore's population is 220. Most of whom aren't that much in a fight.Why wouldn't more of the population be skilled with combat? They are living on the Isle of Dread! Even with the wall, there are huge amounts of dinosaurs that can fly or swim around it. There are all of the intelligent tribes, including lizard men, and the demons from HTBM, never mind pirates as a whole. I would think that these people have rudimentary combat skills, spell casters, druids and healers of their own. Most evey farmer would have a bow (Or a musket if your using firearms). I really think you are comparing the population to a regular city of comparable size and not an extreme outpost on one of the most dangerouse islands D&D has ever created.Blackdragon, the colony is not ON the Isle of Dread. Rather it is on a small islet called Temute about 8-10 miles away from the southeastern peninsula inhabited by some of the Olman tribes. Thus, it's a fairly "safe" place from which to mount small expeditions and to trade with the natives around them.
Have you actually read the adventure yet?
Have you? what is ten miles to a Teradon or an aquatic dinosaur? We're talking about an archipelago not a seperate continent.
That's funny.
Anyway, your prior post seemed to indicate that you thought the colony was situated on the actual Isle of Dread, so I figured I'd ask the obvious question. Not trying to insult you.
There are a lot of questions you can ask about the whole D&D experience as a whole. There's a lot of things that simply don't make sense, but that's where you use your creative reasoning to invent your own logic and make it work for you in your campaign.
Why do the dinosaurs not simply find a way around the Great Wall? How come the monsters that can fly don't simply swarm over the Olmans and colonists? Coulnd't aquatic creatures crawl up on shore and start picking people off?
For me, it's going to be because of extremely low intelligence and lack of problem solving skills, preferred hunting grounds, an abudance of other tastier things to eat, instincts, etc. For you, it can be whatever you want.
Like all published adventures, keep what you like, change what you don't. If you're the DM, you're in charge of taking this material and making it your own.
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what is ten miles to a Teradon or an aquatic dinosaur? We're talking about an archipelago not a seperate continent.
not to kick a dead horse here, but who knows for sure how far the hunting grounds of dinosaurs were. We know there is plenty of large marine life in the area (evidenced by the random encounter tables) and many "swimming" dinosaurs don't seem to have feet... so once the colonists got up on land and threw some alchemist fire on the water, what reason would the dino have to stay? even if you make them cunning creatures like the jurrassic park raptors - they would still wait offshore for a vessel of a size they can attack (like the canoes that are supposed to bring the PCs over - those were conoes right? hmmmm.... ) and after a while they may get scraps from the colonist and be made into a 'town pet'/'watchdog' for the colonists... when they tell of the first raid you can add weaping about their beloved pet dinosaur (especially if you don't think your players would think to recruit them to help defend the city) as to the flying monsters... would they really go over 10-15 miles of ocean to get to land when there is abundant animal lifeo n the island around them?
I am running this, but if I were playing, my thoughts would go to a reconnacence coupled with guerulla warfare.
You know, a couple of well placed divination spells get you in the general area of the fleet. Next up - you set the group up with flying and invisibility. Then you scry the area, then pop in via teleport and you strafe them (or hole thier ship or otherwise make yourself a pain in thier piratical bottoms). At two attacks a day the PC could probably (given enough warning) take out all the ships.
Keep in mind this can occur WELL before the fleet gets even close to Farshore, and the minimal engaement helps keep the PCs healthy.
Of course my group ain't gonna think of this (I doubt I would were I not GM and privy to all that is going on in the adv.) But if they do, I will surely let them get away with this. I might even give them extra VP for just being awesome!
I still would have some destruction oriented pre-programmed flesh golems showing up some days later (assuming the PC didn;t kill them.) And Vanthus would likely escape as well.
Anchoring the Wyvern and the Nixie outside the harbor isn't necessarily a good idea, nor is attacking a fleet of five ships with two or three poorly manned ones (the colony might be able to produce enough sailors to get the ships back to Sasserine, but not to fully man the ships with marines.) If the harbor entrance is blocked, it's quite a simple matter to land the troops at a beach on the other side of the island, march 3-5 miles through the jungle, and attack from the landward side. Sure, there's a palisade, but the vrocks can parachute in and take a gatehouse in about 5 rounds or less, then let the mooks in. And if the PCs take their tiny squadron to sea to chase the pirates there is no guarantee they'll even find and catch up with the pirates, not to mention the long odds to overcome them noted by James & c. above. And Lavinia, Manthalay, and other colony leaders will surely object to dividing the colony's forces in this way and weakening the defenses of the town. It makes much more sense to hold the fort and let your enemy come to you, in this situation, and it should be easy for DMs to use the NPCs of farshore to urge this course of (in)action on the PCs.
Morgan's buccanneer fleet is probably the rough equivalent of the entire Crimson Fleet. The pirate admirals aren't going to commit such a huge force to take out a small, isolated outpost as Farshore. Five ships, 150 battle hardened pirates, the Yuan-ti, golems, and vrocks for special forces, and (they think) the element of surprise ought to make this a cakewalk, in the mind of Vanthus and his bosses.
I'm not too worried about my PC's fireballing the pirate ships into oblivion, since they have no arcane spellcaster in the group. The warlock can dish out damage to individual targets, and the druid may have some decent spells prepared, but the ranger, monk, and rogue will most likely be waiting for the rush of the land attackers, or be taking on the monsters individually.
I'm not too worried about my PC's fireballing the pirate ships into oblivion, since they have no arcane spellcaster in the group. The warlock can dish out damage to individual targets, and the druid may have some decent spells prepared, but the ranger, monk, and rogue will most likely be waiting for the rush of the land attackers, or be taking on the monsters individually.
I'm not too worried about the party's warmage fireballing the ships either, but only because she will probably be a level higher than the adventure calls for and will have access to spells like blade barrier and disintigrate. I'm fairly certain that a blade barrier centered in the rigging would stop a ship pretty quickly, and disintigrate would make quick work of the wooden hulls.
My PC's are canny enough to figure out that the beach is the best place to attack the pirates - beach landings are historically difficult to accomplish without lots of losses - and the protected cove is a good choke point for the ships to be unable to easily escape, should any be able to do so.
Dispite their probable course of action aligning with the adventure, I feel that the battle should be easily won, and that is not something I'm willing to allow the PC's to get away with often.
I have 5 players in my group:
Human warmage
Human Cleric
Human Fighter (archery spec)
Human Paladin
Xeph Scout/fighter
How I intend to accomplish the battle [/i]feeling[i] harder than it is probably going to go, will be to split up the party into groups. The archer can 'lead' a token force of warriors, Olman hunters, and the squirrel/monkey-folk to repel groups of pirates that reach shore. The warmage can deal with the yaun-ti, while the cleric and paladin deal with the Vrocks and their successfully summoned minions. The Scout will help out guarding Lavinia and the Jade Ravens and helping to mop up pirates. Everyone useful and highly important, and at least artificially in support of the others (deathwatch and similar cooperative spells will make coordinating the "units" easier).
Other Ideas are always welcome!
Celric
One of the PC's in my campaign is going into Legendary Captain, and will have a few levels in that class by the time of the attack on Farshore. I am quite certain that he will want to take the fight to them at sea, so I'm going to work out a way to make this profitable. I think if he and one or two other PC's are at sea commanding ships and fighting that battle, while the other PC's are defending the beach, it will work out. With spells like Teleport and Dimension Door they should be able to reposition quickly enough to get where they're needed.
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My PC's are canny enough to figure out that the beach is the best place to attack the pirates - beach landings are historically difficult to accomplish without lots of losses - and the protected cove is a good choke point for the ships to be unable to easily escape, should any be able to do so.
Dispite their probable course of action aligning with the adventure, I feel that the battle should be easily won, and that is not something I'm willing to allow the PC's to get away with often.
Having one of my PCs being a US history buff... I have a feeling that their goign to make a chain across the river that can be raised to trap the ships in, and then try to capture the ships intact... we have one wanting to be a dread pirate and one a legandary captain... so they need more then one ship..