I just had a guy leave my AoW game who's been complaining for the last 15 levels that the loot provided by the campaign as written has been woefully inadequate. Have any other DMs here gotten this complaint?
I have one player that thinks the same. But we checked wealth levels as new characters were introduced into the campaign and found that as a group they were well over the suggested wealth levels. The complaining player was low, but others were high. So at best the player could probably only complain that the spread of items wasn't fair (ie more items useful to certain classes only).
I think a thread stating the complete opposite can be found. I even think that Erik Mona and James Jacobs said that the treasure in the AP was higher than the proposed wealth per level on purpose, because the AP was tough.
So really those players are complaning about nothing...
I think you have a sour grapes player.
Our group finished the AoW AP and they are sitting on a horde of treasure that would be the envy of any ancient dragon.
Lack of monetary or magical resources is NOT a issue in AoW, unless the DM has downscaled the treasure award in the adventure, or the party simply hasn't make any effort to collect it.
Now, if the treasure distribution has not be equable, he may have a complaint but it is not the fault of the adventure - rather, he should take up the issue with his fellow party members and/or the DM.
And to walk away from a wonderful 15 levels of fun from the AoW because you are not getting your due....well, that just seems extreme when a frank discussion can patch the matter up.
I think you have a sour grapes player.
And to walk away from a wonderful 15 levels of fun from the AoW because you are not getting your due....well, that just seems extreme when a frank discussion can patch the matter up.
To be fair, that's not the sole reason why he left, but it was a point he repeatedly brought up.
Many gamers seem to be of the fickle lot. There are many type of gamers that have earned some type of name, but what about the drifting gamer?
I do think it's a good idea to tailor some of the treasure so that each party member gets something especially useful to him or herself once in a while. But some players want you to be a "Monty Haul" type DM--sometimes this complaint is a symptom of munchkinism--the player really wants to be decked out better than everyone else.
If anything, though, I think there's plenty of treasure to be had in this AP, enough that if you want different stuff from what you found, it's easy enough to buy what you want in the Free City or Alhaster.
Edit--did your party take advantage of Manzorian's trade-in offer for the Rod of Seven Parts fragment? And did you give your dissatisfied player something good?
we are just barely through the whispering cairn. While we have had a lot of item drops, the actual GP drops are few and far between. If my archivist would have taken the 3 statuettes to town to sell, he would have kept the cash for scribing things into his prayerbook. Not having the cash to scribe for an archivist or a wizard sucks. Hopefully it will change.
My players haven't had problems with the provided loot; I even added a few things here or there to make things interesting, like legacy weapons and the full Rod of Seven parts, and they haven't had any munchkin-like symptoms. Altogether, the only complaint (and it wasn't really a complaint) was when the wizard wanted to make everyone +1 Soulfire Bracers of Armor to guard against negative energy and death attacks. They were in a time-sensitive part of the adventure, and we compromised by finding a plane of existence they could reach where time was sped up.
I started with 7 PCs in my group, so the treasure as written was actually not enough. I've added things every adventure in order to keep them up with the DMG expected PC wealth guidelines. We're in AGoW right now, and a powerful weapon was just destroyed by an ooze, plus they're skipping past a lot of stuff instead of doing their more typical room-clearing drill - so I'll probably have to add a fair amount of extra treasure this time.
Edit--did your party take advantage of Manzorian's trade-in offer for the Rod of Seven Parts fragment? And did you give your dissatisfied player something good?
Yeah, I basically made up 3 nice items for each player to choose from. He got his choice of 1) a suit of hide armor +3 that made you immune to crits & sneak attacks from your favored enemies, plus all weapons you wield are favored-enemy bane, 2) a cloak of resistance +3 that absorbs 50 pts of energy damage (any type) a day, and 3) a flaming frost keen mighty composite longbow +1 that adjusts its Str bonus to whatever the wielder's currently is. He thought these were all useless, which might be indicative of something else entirely, but in general he used comparitive gp values of items versus the recommended treasure levels in the core book when making his argument.
But from the sounds of the posts here, it appears he's in the vast minority.
Yeah, I basically made up 3 nice items for each player to choose from. He got his choice of 1) a suit of hide armor +3 that made you immune to crits & sneak attacks from your favored enemies, plus all weapons you wield are favored-enemy bane, 2) a cloak of resistance +3 that absorbs 50 pts of energy damage (any type) a day, and 3) a flaming frost keen mighty composite longbow +1 that adjusts its Str bonus to whatever the wielder's currently is. He thought these were all useless, which might be indicative of something else entirely, but in general he used comparitive gp values of items versus the recommended treasure levels in the core book when making his argument.
This person likes to play MMORPGs or the likes of Diablo I bet. I mean those items are ubber in the extreme.
**Quote** He got his choice of 1) a suit of hide armor +3 that made you immune to crits & sneak attacks from your favored enemies, plus all weapons you wield are favored-enemy bane, 2) a cloak of resistance +3 that absorbs 50 pts of energy damage (any type) a day, and 3) a flaming frost keen mighty composite longbow +1 that adjusts its Str bonus to whatever the wielder's currently is. He thought these were all useless, which might be indicative of something else entirely, but in general he used comparitive gp values of items versus the recommended treasure levels in the core book when making his argument. **UnQuote**
He thought the three items were useless? Holy Crud....that player redefines 'jaded' player.
What...he expected a +5 Vorpal Weapons of Speed? Sheesh. Some people's kids. IMO, you are better off without him.
Yeah, I basically made up 3 nice items for each player to choose from. He got his choice of 1) a suit of hide armor +3 that made you immune to crits & sneak attacks from your favored enemies, plus all weapons you wield are favored-enemy bane, 2) a cloak of resistance +3 that absorbs 50 pts of energy damage (any type) a day, and 3) a flaming frost keen mighty composite longbow +1 that adjusts its Str bonus to whatever the wielder's currently is. He thought these were all useless, which might be indicative of something else entirely, but in general he used comparitive gp values of items versus the recommended treasure levels in the core book when making his argument.But from the sounds of the posts here, it appears he's in the vast minority.
Wow, those items are awesome! Very creative and quite powerful, too. Personally, I wouldn't want to play with someone who couldn't appreciate those.
He thought the three items were useless? Holy Crud....that player redefines 'jaded' player.
Well yeah, he was very jaded. His rationale was:
1) Useless because his favored enemies were "animal" and "aberration", and there haven't been many of those. Also, the hide armor slows his movement.2) Useless because he had evasion.
3) Useless because he already had Improved Critical (longbow) and it wouldn't stack.
Out of curiosity, did anyone else make up items for Manzorian's trade?
I made up some tailored items for the PC's prior to that - just before the Champion's Games to be precise, after a small side-quest. The main reason was the group was getting too many "junk" items with +1 or thereabouts - amulets, rings, weapons, armours, there was only so many of these things the party could use and then any extras became useless to them. Although in general the campaign has been pretty much OK, not too much stuff the group can't use, lots they can and have made use of (although they generally find it hard to use all the expendables like potions, wands etc, these seem to be building up faster than they can ever get used).
So I had Eligos help them get "trade-ups" as part of a reward from a neighbourhood of the Free City - their reward was boosted by the items that Eligos "trade in" on their behalf. So the group got rid of their extra "junk" magic, and I gave them all something worth around 8-18,000 gp each in return. From memory, the items I gave out were as follows (keep in mind a lot of these were enhancements to existing items):
+1 frost seeking longbow for the elf druid / wizard / MT / AH.
+1 undead-bane longbow for the Ogre, with various types of ammunition (cold iron, adamantium, some flaming).
+2 glamoured elven chain shirt and girdle of giantess strength (+3) for the Cleric/Rogue
+2 ring or protection and cloak of resistance +2 for the paladin.
+2 gold medallion (amulet) of natural armour for the chimp animal companion (to go with his studded leather armour).
plus a couple of scrolls and potions to round things out.
Everyone seemed really happy with those, I guess it was better than they expected, and for example the Cleric/Rogue had previously been trying to find something to help boost her Str which was only a 7, and the Ogre/Ftr had only just got his custom-made bow completed after a 6 month construction time so having it magical made him real happy. We all don't like the "shopping trip" approach to buying and selling magic items, so finding stuff or having things custom-made (by you or someone else) is about the only way you get cool magic items in my campaigns.
When they get to Tenser's place (Manzorian), my current thinking is items as follows:
Ogre/Ftr/Kensai: Mithral Full Plate of Speed +3 / Mithral Full Plate +5 (he needs medium armour to use his Spring Attack feat).
Cleric/Rogue: boost her headband to +8 Wis total (the one found in the Whispering Cairn, which will be +4 by this stage -she really has poor wisdom even with +4).
Druid/wiz/MT/AH: Periapt of Wisdom +6 or Int +6 (depends on her major spell-casting class, seems like Wiz at moment).
Paladin: Gloves of Dexterity +2, Cloak of Charisma +4 and Girdle of Giant Strength +4 (she's a follower so lower level, and needs some general boosts rather than just one thing).
Chimp: Scarab of Protection (to help keep him alive).
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I made the sword that was found in 3FoE, I think it was a Cold Iron Longsword, a Weapon of Legacy Holy Avenger. One thing that was missing, and I did limit my PC's on what they could buy, was a really good bludgeoning weapon to use against Dragotha. They beat him anyway, because the spirit pieces of Balakarde saved their butts. As for Epic weapons, there are none. The worst fight they have had so far was against the Carrion Crawler in Kongen-Thulnir. I could have had a TPK with Brazzemal as well, but they have been using the same characters, except for 1 retirement, since the beginning. If I gave Brazzemal the heals he had, he would have wiped them. They were low on magic with the Warpriest, and the Wizard already used alot of his powerful spells. I think so far, through all the campaign, Brazzemal is even tougher than Dragotha. They know they are going to fight Dragotha, Brazz was a shock.
The treasure is OK, but it is lacking in high end items, unless you let the PC's buy them. I don't like letting them buy really powerful stuff, because to me, it would not be for sale. I let them get +4 weapons, the 2 warriors got holy ones, and +5 armor.
Wow some players are really misunderstanding how RPGs work. Maybe the player in question should go back to playing MUDs or other such computer games where computers judge the gold prices and all that, as opposed to a fluid and dynamic environment of a in person role palying game. If I ever GM'd or played alongside a player who made the exact treasure GP amount anything but a odd tiny side issue, I would proptly show that person the door and tell them to go do something like count beans.
As far as my campaign goes (we are only on TFOE and have only 2 players so the treasure levels are low so far, although most likely above level as they are splitting it 50/50 and I am not cutting back significantly on the amounts of treasure), I have given each player a weapon of legacy (using somewhat bastardized and simplified rules from the Weapons of Legacy book, talk about a book that jumped the shark, eh?) from the start of the game. I really like the idea of a player coming to gain a personal interest in their items, and not simply see them in economic/power terms. Instead I want them to have emotional impact, just like I want my players to have an emptional connection to their characters.
Otherwise I think that AOW has high treasure amounts, but it will be no problem as one of the players is planning to open a magic shop. He is trying to open it in the Free City of Greyhawk, but the Magic Guild there is not interested in increased competition. Instead they told him of a shopkeeper in Alhaster who is looking to sell. Always looking to work the plot a little closer.
My group just finished Whispering Cairns and the loot total was pushing 30,000 gp. Divided amoung 4 players that's roughly 7500 each, far above what 3rd level players should have.
On the other hand, they have struggeled against many of the creatures.
Jason
Woah. 30K at third? That sounds a bit extreme, but then again I could be wrong. I seem to recall my group had less than 10K when they finished the module, and they were just glad to be alive ;)
I plan on adding quite a bit of loot the next time my group gets together. They used evasion tactics to get past most of the dragons and giants in Kings of the Rift, and left three of the named dragons alive (Brazzemel the Burning, Vermirox the Blue, and XyZanth the Fang Dragon). They and the remaining dragons have gathered at Brazzemel's Aerie in the Wormcrawl Fissure, and were waiting when the players flew in with their airship.
Now, the gear on those dragons only makes up a portion of their CR treasure, if I understand the way things have been written. Because the encounter is going to be so HUGE, I plan on giving the players the combination of all three named dragon's hordes hidden inside Brazzemel's Aerie.
That's going to be one huge chunk of change... but at this point, I have no problem giving my players all the cash they think they can handle. They've more than earned it.
Hehe.. my group is just so happy to be in a loot-ridden dungeon in the Whispering Cairns. Even divided between the seven of them, they still find it's a lot more than what I put into my previous campaign. At the mention of selling an Owlbear Cub for 3,000gp someone almost fainted. Gold is like candy in that game.