I read your editorial piece in the new Dungeon and I thought to myself, "I have connection to none of these things." I had never heard of Dragotha, I never played in the Tomb of Horros. The first Forgotten Realms thing I bought was the revised campaign setting in the late days of TSR. For me "classic" D&D (from middle school, when I was in my height of playing) is the original Dark Sun adventure series, Dragon Mountain, Undermountain, and Player's Option books. While I understand your desire to design the classic D&D campaign, for me it doesn't have that same feel. This isn't classic D&D. For me, until 3e came out, this was the D&D of the old guys who wouldn't leave the old game behind (though, oddly, the same guys entrenched themselves even deeper when 3e came out).
Now this isn't a negative critique. The Age of Worms is awesome, as I wrote to you a couple of months ago. I just wanted to remind you that D&D isn't the same thing for all people and I, for one, miss some of the more epic things that TSR was trying to do in the late days (even if they weren't exactly succeeding at them). I feel like the Greyhawk setting is generic and my love of D&D wasn't forged in the dungeon crawl style, but rather in a Dragonlance or Dark Sun style of epic adventure. While I love the Age of Worms, it really never tugged any of those heart strings that connect me to the old games.
Keep up the good work. Go Vikes. ;)
-Phil
I enjoy reading the editorials. They take me back to a time before house payments,40+ hour weeks,and wondering what time the kid's track practice ends.
I miss the days when my biggest worry was whether or not I would have the adventure ready before the game on Sat.
Thanks for reminding me how cool ninjas are.
The OP made a good point here. My oldest D&D memorys are some Forgotten realms SSI computer games on the Commodore 64. I asked my players what they consider "the ol`D&D days". A lot of them said "The epic adventure in the Baldur`s Gate computer game!" (PC).
Think about it! "D&D - The next generation"
Keep up the good work. Go Vikes. ;)
-Phil
And if the Seahawks have anything to say...
Go Vikes - straight to the 666th layer, in a rickety handbasket! :)
I don't disagree with the OP (and others since) who different opinions of what the "classic" era or "classic" setting is, since its all relative to your own memories of the game. Or memories of the computer game based on DnD, since someone brought up Baldur's Gate, and the great line of SSI DnD games.
But I personally think that classic DnD for me is Greyhawk. I can remember a time before the Forgotten Realms (or at least before the first box set anyways) and a time when Dragonlance was just starting out. When Ravenloft was a creepy adventure and not a campaign setting. Hell, I remember being excited when the "new" Fiend Folio or Monster Manual II came out, since we now had more monsters to slay.
But my favorite memories are of Greyhawk adventures. The Temple of Elemental Evil, Slavers adventures, Against the Giants, the introduction of the drow and underdark.... now that was a great campaign arc. Saltmarsh. Tomb of the Lizard King. Tomb of Horrors.
Those were the adventure that still stand out from my early DnD days. And those are the adventures that I've converted from AD&D into 2nd edition, and then again into 3.0/3.5. And my players (from differing generations) now have fond memories of those adventures as well.
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So basically, I agree with Eric's editorial. Classic DnD is Greyhawk. At least for me anyways.
With all respect to the younger generation gamers, I'm with Talion - I grew into D&D with Greyhawk and all of the 1st Ed. modules...you name it, I either read it, played it or ran it, all the way through 2nd Ed. - although, strangely, I've avoided Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Dark Sun and pretty much everything outside of Greyhawk.
I might be lacking for knowledge by focusing on a single campaign setting for 25 years, but by golly, I know that world like the back of my hand.
Without having read that particular piece, I think that Erik wrote from his own frame of reference, and thus, all of us should reminisce from our own places and appreciate how the game now crosses generations, in its own way for each of us.
M
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I, too am having a blast re-running classic 1st Ed. adventures for my group, some of whom have played for 25 years, some who are completely fresh.
I picked Saltmarsh, thinking it would be so obscure... then it appeared in Dungeon in the 'Best Adventures Ever!!!!' article. And other posters have expressed their fond memories of this module and sequels, to the extent that it became the example town in DMG2!
I am quite astounded; by current standards, it's quite small and simple, but I suppose it marked a change from the 'go down the hole, beat things up and take their stuff' mentality of previous releases, so in 1981, it was probably seen as radical.
I had thought it had never appeared on the radar of US players, since it was released by TSR UK, who seemed to operate on a shoestring budget.
What I find totally surreal, is that another DM in my town started a campaign the same week I re-started mine, using the same adventure! We share a player, but I was modifying the intro and encounters for level 3 PCs anyway.
Not a bad bit of nostalgia for a slim module that's a quarter century old!
With all respect to the younger generation gamers, I'm with Talion - I grew into D&D with Greyhawk and all of the 1st Ed. modules...you name it, I either read it, played it or ran it, all the way through 2nd Ed. - although, strangely, I've avoided Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Dark Sun and pretty much everything outside of Greyhawk.
I might be lacking for knowledge by focusing on a single campaign setting for 25 years, but by golly, I know that world like the back of my hand.
Without having read that particular piece, I think that Erik wrote from his own frame of reference, and thus, all of us should reminisce from our own places and appreciate how the game now crosses generations, in its own way for each of us.
M
I just want to add that I do have fond memories of Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, the various computer games... but to me, they came after the originals, thus they are relegated to a lesser status in my mind when talking about classic dnd.
* I've had the most fun I've ever had playing 3.0/3.5 in Eberron... but I can hardly call a setting that has been out for only two years a classic. Ask me again in a decade or so, lol
The OP made a good point here. My oldest D&D memorys are some Forgotten realms SSI computer games on the Commodore 64. I asked my players what they consider "the ol`D&D days". A lot of them said "The epic adventure in the Baldur`s Gate computer game!" (PC).
Think about it! "D&D - The next generation"
I've got a feeling that the "next generation" of designers are probably going to be guys like me who grew up on that late TSR stuff. In many ways, I think that 3e gives us the tools to do what couldn't be done then. I find it interesting that D&D has sort of "reverted" to an earlier style, when you truly can be so much more epic, so much more fast paced.
Not that I'm not having a good time with this stuff, as I said before. I really am enjoying it and I'm sure I'll have fond memories of it in the future. It just doesn't tug on the heartstrings.
Maybe I'm just retro. My oldest memories of D&D were flipping through the 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual at Boy Scout camp and playing Baldur's Gate. But you know what? I love the "old" D&D. I own a copy of Palace of the Silver Princess (the second, edited edition, alas). I ran my players through the Tomb of Horrors and had a great time. I love all the little shout-outs to the Against the Giants days that are making their way into Dungeon.
So it could be that I'm feeling nostalgia for a time I wasn't alive, I don't know. I'm just saying that the classics can even be classic for those who weren't around to experience them the first time.
Gosh I feel old. Real old. Older than ... well not that old.
To me classic D&D was the game I never played but saw. I started with AD&D 1st edition in 1980. I played each and every edition of AD&D and played the New D&D or 3E and 3.5E.
Classic D&D was a few small paperback books, where elves were a "class."
AD&D, on the other hand was a sophisticated game best played by mature college students. (Until that fateful day when I saw E.T. and thought ... how can kids know the subtlies of ROLE PLAYING. And yes that was in 1E when role playing really was roll playing. My how times have changed.)
Now when I mention "roll" playing I mean the process of character creation where you literally had to use one hundred custom tables taken from whatever third party designer had the time to write them up to make your character. Race, class, height, weight, number of brothers and sisters, family's rank in society, and all that sort of stuff.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Playing several hundred RPGA games in about a dozen states across the USA and interacting with international gamers as the co-founded and campaign manager of Living Greyhawk, I have a deep appreciation for the different ways people play D&D.
Age of Worms is my chance to give a hurrah for the type of game I was raised playing, and the type of game that was most popular when the game itself was most popular. Given the demographics of the magazine, I think a large number of our readers probably appreciate what we've been doing, at least in part because of nostalgia.
And, really, you're getting in on things like Dragotha now. I think it would be cool if, in 20 years, someone who got started with this run of Dungeon published a "return to the Age of Worms" or some sort of follow-up that continues to build on a shared mythology that is now more than 30 years strong.
That said, we'd be foolish to follow up the Age of Worms with twelve adventures along the same bent, so expect something different for the next Adventure Path.
--Erik
Age of Worms is my chance to give a hurrah for the type of game I was raised playing, and the type of game that was most popular when the game itself was most popular. Given the demographics of the magazine, I think a large number of our readers probably feel the same way.
Yup, it was a great Ed. and its nostaglia of those early memories reminded me of why I started playing again after a long absence with the 3rd Ed release. As long as you're putting out stuff like AoW, you got my money.
No offense, Phil C, but I'm not sure I grasp the purpose of this thread. Maybe I'm just dense but are you saying that Erik was wrong or even inaccurate to equate "classic" DnD with stuff from first and 2nd edition, mythology from 20 years ago just because you personally didn't happen to be involved then? That seems a little egocentric to me. I'm sorry if you didn't feel the tug of heartstrings or experience the nostalgia that the authors were going for with this AoW but why complain against those who did?
My Dad tells great stories about old cars that he had back in the "good ol' days" and though I've only ever seen a deuce coupe in parades and at car shows I can appreciate the nostalgia HE feels when he sees one.
What I'm trying to say is that it is impossible to give the "old time feeling" to everyone because, after 30 years, you can't cover all the bases from the person who bought the first boxed set to the person who just picked up the magazine for the first time yesterday. I think it's fair and accurate to give a nod to those of us who *were* around in the early days and are still enjoying the game - we are a significant portion of Paizo's readership, after all. And don't worry, in no time at all there'll be *flashback* references to such "oldies but goodies" as Baldur's Gate and even Eberron!
Playing several hundred RPGA games in about a dozen states across the USA and interacting with international gamers as the co-founded and campaign manager of Living Greyhawk, I have a deep appreciation for the different ways people play D&D.
Age of Worms is my chance to give a hurrah for the type of game I was raised playing, and the type of game that was most popular when the game itself was most popular. Given the demographics of the magazine, I think a large number of our readers probably appreciate what we've been doing, at least in part because of nostalgia.
And, really, you're getting in on things like Dragotha now. I think it would be cool if, in 20 years, someone who got started with this run of Dungeon published a "return to the Age of Worms" or some sort of follow-up that continues to build on a shared mythology that is now more than 30 years strong.
That said, we'd be foolish to follow up the Age of Worms with twelve adventures along the same bent, so expect something different for the next Adventure Path.
--Erik
I think it's cool that you're in a position where you can do that, and you're right, I'm totally getting into this campaign. These adventures are great, and as I said in my letter, these are some of the best issues of Dungeon and Dragon that I've ever seen.
I'm not sure why I felt compelled to make the post, but I just thought it was interesting to sort of see that generational gap that has appeared in Dungeon/Dragon material. If you think about everything as cyclical you see certain things coming around for a second swing every 20 or 30 years. In pop music that means you have bands like Franz Ferdinand or The Killers who have an 80s New Wave bent to them. In D&D it means Dragotha rises from the mists of old school Dungeons & Dragons. But then, there's always a disconnect for some people.
I hope I didn't offend anyone with my observations. I just thought it was curious. I don't feel like it was selfish to point this out because in some ways I was writing for an entire generation of gamers who missed the early stuff.
The classics for me were the old boxed sets. My brother and I and our friend down the street first played "Expert" D&D during a vacation week at the shore with some guys across the street with a run through Castle Amber. Our friend DM'd for us after that. We used the coffee table and played after school. The first adventure my friend ran for my brother and I was B2 Keep on the Borderlands, followed by B3, B4 and X1. Lots of other adventures after those early days.
Erik (and the rest of the Dungeon staff) keep up the great work. I haven't had the time to run a Shackled City or Age of Worms game but hope to some day. This latest issue rocks. Dragotha is awesome and his treasure horde is SWEET!
L
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...
Age of Worms is my chance to give a hurrah for the type of game I was raised playing, and the type of game that was most popular when the game itself was most popular. Given the demographics of the magazine, I think a large number of our readers probably appreciate what we've been doing, at least in part because of nostalgia.
...
That said, we'd be foolish to follow up the Age of Worms with twelve adventures along the same bent, so expect something different for the next Adventure Path.--Erik
To that end I may have to switch from my monthly hunt to a subscription just to cast my vote of appreciation for the way things are going!
Age of Worms is my chance to give a hurrah for the type of game I was raised playing, and the type of game that was most popular when the game itself was most popular.
I just want to say that I am loving the Age of Worms AP. I ran a homebrew world for seven years before i even knew what a campaign setting was. I just created my own world and went. When I read Erik's editorials, I can just imagine the flare in his eyes remembering his first days of gaming. That thought then hits me and I see myself buying my first D&D product. A copy of the AD&D PHB in the Denver train station on somewhat of a whim.
Almost ten years later, by a friend of a friend, I was introduced to Greyhawk. I immediately loved the setting, especially since my DM is a meticulous historian of his world and makes it come alive. Since then I have grown more curious of Greyhawk and began running my own Greyhawk campaign.
When Age of Worms came out, I felt that I was finally gonna be able to live my own "Glory Days" of Greyhawk. They truly are memorable already as my current group is just finished with The Whispering Cairn and loving it.
Thank you to the entire Dungeon staff for making the magazine so great and for giving those of us who found Greyhawk shortly before 3rd Edition, a chance to create our own Greyhawk moments.
The classics for me were the old boxed sets. My brother and I and our friend down the street first played "Expert" D&D during a vacation week at the shore with some guys across the street with a run through Castle Amber. ...
L
Funny, but off topic:
My first experience was playing AD&D, and *then* I went to the boxed sets (basic, expert, etc)... and then I went back to AD&D, then on to 2nd edition, 3.0/3.5, etc.
I guess the AD&D stuff was a little harder for a 10 year old kid, so I was given the good old boxed sets... This just got brought back to mind from the "elves as a class" comment
My first experience with D&D was the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief. I was about ten years old, had a thin grasp of the rules, and was utterly absorbed by AD&D and all it had to offer. I left the game in 85' to chase girls, start college, and live overseas, but I finally returned to the fold in 2000. It was worth the wait, though, especially since I had fifteen years of material to catch up on.
Great game. Great campaign. Can't wait to run it for my players.
You know, its funny. I was talking to Erik the other day. I consider him a friend. And in the "gaming industry (dont get me started on that) he is about one of the coolest and most tuned in guys you will meet. I am all about "classic D&D." Heck, I run a d20 company that has classic D&D nostalgia as a prime component. I just published Judges Guild's gi-normous Wilderlands setting.
But yet here I am about to run Shackled City.
Why?
Because one of the coolest things that I loved about classic d&d was the "shared experience" of those 1E modules. Everyone had gone through the Giants and Drow, Tomb of Horrors, etc. They were a common reference.
Today, I think the Drizzt novels and Baldurs Gate are probably the shared common base of reference.
But Erik added to that (and Chris before him). Erik added Shackled City (shepherded it to completion anyway) and now Age of Worms.
To me, those campaigns are going to be the new shared experience of current D&D. That is why I am running them. I want to be a part of that shared experience.
Clark
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Great, great thread! Makes me feel kind of "old" though ;)
The above is all correct and brings back font memories of past days.
One thing I would like to add:
Even if I haven't started the AoW-AP (I will, don't worry), I still feel kind of sharing the memories and belonging to all those AoW-players (or SC-players)!
Why, you might ask?!
Because of the Dungeon Magazine, these messageboards and the letter-section in both, Dargon and Dungeon (never skip these, as it was requested in #134)!
Reading stuff and sharing experiences, even if I presently can't contribute to them in regard to AoW is very nice, and realy gives me this community-feeling which I thought long dead. But nowadays, as I said before in another thread - your magazine makes me feel closer to the game than ever before!
you've got to love Age of Worms as well if you're a big fan of D&D nostalgia.
i mean come on; kyuss is the main villan, dragotha is the secondary, and you've got things like froghemoths and thessalhydras (Clark might recognize those two; seen the Tome of Horrors lately?) roaming around.
that's got first edition nostalgia written all over it! :)
I'm just saying that the classics can even be classic for those who weren't around to experience them the first time.
that's how i look at it. i mean, i never even played first edition AD&D once. :)
As a DM running the Age Worms (just a little under a third of the way through 3FoE right now) that is somewhat new to the DnD realm (started with 3rd edition), I was puzzled when I got the latest issue of dragon out of my mailbox and it heralded something about the original undead dragon. Knowing that one of the final installments of the AoW's was in the issue I was skeptical they were refering to Dragotha. Then I read Erik's Editorial.
Wow.
As I said, I'm somewhat new to the DnD Landscape. But the players in my group have been playing DnD for as long as I'm alive. They all fondly remember DnD before there was such a thing as an edition of it.
After reading erik's editorial, and the new perspective I have on the people of the AoW . . . even though I'm converting it to Eberron as we go, i'm sure my players will get even more out of the adventure than I originally thought.
Granted, I should've gotten a hint of it when they immediately recognized the green worm in filge's possession. (Not that their characters knew, they still needed allustan for that.)
So, in fear of startingto ramble i'll cutt his short. Whether the origins of the AoW are "classic" DnD or not . . . It's definately someting that will be fantasticaly entertaining.
Thank you Erik & Co.
Johnny-
I'm with you. I think Dungeon has never been better. And it is because Erik Mona has big huge balls. He has taken some risks and changed a bunch of things. He has not been afraid to just make the mag the best it can be. Chris did a great job before him with the Adventure Path idea getting started. But I really think Erik is the man. Dungeon is, IMHO, essential. I wouldnt be cought dead without it.
And the adventures are just getting better and better. It used to be every now and then you got a good one with some mediocre ones. But now a days, just about every adventure I read I say "man that was good." Now most of that is a credit to awesome submissions. But the editors at Dungeon are really on their game and Erik's direction (and willingness to change direction to improve the mag) are the primary reason.
Dungeon rules right now.
Clark
When I was really getting Necromancer Games up and running I considered Dungeon to be my biggest obstacle. Why would someone spend $8+ for my adventure when they could spend $6 or $7 for an issue of Dungeon and get three adventures in full color that are not limited by d20 and are "official"? That was a big design question I faced. As a result, I left the smaller adventure format because I felt no one could do it better than Dungeon. And I think I am right on that. Particularly under Erik's stewardship, Dungeon is an amazing value and an amazing product. So I moved to "mini-campaigns" and larger books.
So maybe it is funny for me to pump up a product (Dungeon) that I compete with for purchasers. But in my view, I am a gamer first and a d20 publisher second. And D&D would be worse without Dungeon, in particular without Dungeon as Erik currently has it running. The mag is just P-H-A-T fat!
I havent alwasy liked everything Erik tried, but he had the balls to try it and find out if it worked or not. I hated seeing Polyhedron go. But it made the mag better. I personally loved the minigames. But he kept a razor focus on what Dungeon needed to be and he was right. Heck, how many times did he change the format? Normally that is suicide for a publication. But he stuck with it until he found the right recipie. And man, did he ever find it.
I just cant say enough good thinks about the job the guys have done at Dungeon. I mention Erik because he and I are friends. But really the whole staff is just kicking major a&& right now.
You guys over there have a whole lot to be proud of. And if you know me, you know I am not one to throw out praise lightly.
Clark
I've got a feeling that the "next generation" of designers are probably going to be guys like me who grew up on that late TSR stuff. In many ways, I think that 3e gives us the tools to do what couldn't be done then. I find it interesting that D&D has sort of "reverted" to an earlier style, when you truly can be so much more epic, so much more fast paced.Not that I'm not having a good time with this stuff, as I said before. I really am enjoying it and I'm sure I'll have fond memories of it in the future. It just doesn't tug on the heartstrings.
Your right of course that eventually there will be a next generation that got into the game when Dragonlance had just come out and later there will be those that started to play after Eberron had been out for 5 years etc.
That said your not going to see that day anytime soon. The old Red Books and the first Edition Players Handbook roped in a lot of kids that were oh roughly about 8 years old then. Most of use would be in our 30s now - writing is one of those jobs you can do into your sixties and seventies furthermore, on average, the older you are the more senoir a position you have with a company - so one can expect that many of the most influential writers for D&D will generally be those 8 year old kids for another 30 years or so. Of course not every good writer will be from this demographic - some one could start playing today and be making a big splash in the industry in 5 years, good writing will obvously stand out no matter the demographic. But I think you will be an old man yourself before the current generation really exits the field.
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I hope I didn't offend anyone with my observations. I just thought it was curious.
Be not down-hearted Phil C, I am largely with you. D&D really began for me with 3E, so lots of the "in-jokes" or whatever are lost on me. Like you, I have utmost respect for the history of the game and the experiences of those who enjoyed it in its earlier incarnations. But there does feel, to me, a slight disconnect between the "Oh, I remember that" stuff, like the fuss over the froghemoth, and me seeing it as just a slightly dumb monster.
I've got no problem with it - D&D has a history, and it should be enjoyed and used to the fullest. But I also think that people need to be careful that it doesn't turn into a nostalgia-fest. The hobby won't attract new blood if all anyone ever sees is oldtimers going on about how great it was in the 80's, and designing adventures to bring a warm glow to those who were at GenCon '82.
That said, Dungeon is in the best state it has ever been, in my opinion (and I subscribed, if didn't play, for years before 3E). I don't think there is a problem with the AoW or the editorial policy or anything like that. But I think we would be better concentrating on the glorious future of D&D rather than its past, sometimes.