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So my group hasn't had too tough of a time in Spire of Long Shadows, they had the most difficulty with the Swords of Kyuss and Kelvos, the wormtouched. We had one death that was long coming, by a PC that like to take ALOT of gambles. Anyway they have had little difficutly with the Overworm and are heading straight towards the Harbinger. I want to throw the book at them with the Harbinger and see how they do. He will be prepped to the gills with advanced knowledge they are here (As they've made no effort to conceal themselves during the Sea of Worms battle and he's only 40 feet away) In effect (when they bust the doors open for a little telepathic Q&A) are all spells listed in text
with the addition of spell turning (which is swapped out for limited wish,- wish spells dont exist in my games)

I'll probably start off Maze on the biggest the threat ( An archer with an Undead Bane/ Holy bow who just chews up undead)
following up with the Prismatic spray, then Enervation and Sorching Ray in round 3,

I am saving a DC 24 plane shift to the Negative Energy Plane
for anyone that gets throught the repulsion and tries to base him in melee combat.

One question I had about that was IF there was way possible way to survive being transported to the negative energy plane or was it an auto kill? how could one be retrieved from such a fate by their comrades if at all?

Any other advice on running this encounter is appreciated.

I'm 25 sessions and roughly 100 hours in and we just completed
HoHR tonight!

1.Greyhawk-
2.Ravenloft-
3.Forgotten Realms-

This about as uncomplicated as it can be-

Scarlet Brotherhood-

A mysterious organization of disciplined Human monks and assassins, they are subtle conquerors who use the politics of religious dominance and racial purity to hatch their evil schemes. Worshiping various evil dieties (primarily Lawful) they kill or enslave any that oppose them. Their nation far to the south of the Vast Swamp on a naturally protected jungled penninsula. Their holdings stretch far across the islands and jungles of the southern Flanaess including the recently conquered Hold of the Sea Princes.

I don't have much experience running high level characters but again- how the heck do you get a touch AC of 50??????

In a core game the way I read it, A 20th level monk who some how attains a 30 Wisdom and Dexterity has a +24 AC bonus..then add +15 for natural armor amulet, Ring of Protection, and Bracers of armor at + 5 each and that's a AC 39...throw some more buffs on there like +5 for Barkskin from a high level druid and +1 Prayer for good measure...and your at AC 45, that's already a stretch right there as I don't see how you get to AC 50!! not to mention the highest individual stat you can get naturally is a 23, so you need a +7 artificial in your main and +14 in the second to get to dual stats of 30. Unless you use crazy speciality items that fall outside the rules like a +15 ring of protection or some nonsense..I don't get it, what am I missing?

To assume that the $30 max on Demo is because the price was $30 on Paizo when it was last polled is a fairly minimal assumption.

Well you know what they say about assumptions, the Paizo data isn't used for calculating rare prices due to the fact it so out of wack with the standard market .

That "fig or two" turns out to be a real pain in the butt. .

I hope you don't think anyone actually does that? People buy their boosters by the case and then trade or buy the missing figs on ebay, nobody with brain shops for there last two figs by buying individual boosters, Twice now I've gotten a full set with just two cases and a few randoms I've won or got thru a pre release event. I sell extras on ebay as well where there is a huge secondary market. Most current DDM rares(last 3 sets) can be had on ebay for between $8-$12 dollars, some of older rarer figs are in the $20 range..there are a few pieces that command crazy money $40+ range. But the most expensive Fig in DDM is Drizzit and he can readily be found for $100.00, but here at Paizo he is $200. Statistics, set rarity, or whatever the heck has been speculated here, arent a justification for Paizo's prices. It's a sellers market, they charge what they think they can get. it's not a big deal, if you don't like the price shop somewhere else. If you want a DDM Demogorgon for your Savage Tide AP, check ebay there are a dozen "buy it now" auctions in the 20-$30 price range today.

Ulch! No, that's now how statistics works! ;)

Probably not, but that's how the price guide works, It uses a random # of shops to compile the data on each fig out of the pool of 12. The data I link to is recent and updated automatically and Paizo mini prices have been this high for quite some time. All I can say it the paizo data probably isn't used for rare figures (due to it being to high) in the price guide while it is for common and uncommon figs ( where the prices are more reasonable)

There seems to be serious lack of information here about the DDM minis game and it collectable nature, I doubt many are aware that it is the #2 money maker for WotC right behind Magic and ahead of their RPG books. If your interested in the game check out these links for more info Maxminis. and
Hordelings.

I usually get get a complete set (within a fig or two) from buying 3 cases ( 36 boosters) so 24 rares in a set is good number rarity and collectibility wise.

Back OT, there is no way around the fact the Paizo marks their DDM rares up 100% above the standard market value. As Lisa explained above, it seems that's the case because people are will to pay that, in order to buy those minis from Paizo. there it is, no excuses.

I'm confused. If it uses Paizo's data, and Paizo charges $60, why isn't the high price $60?

If you look at the figures prices you see numbers are based on (X)# of shops, OF the 4 they used for the fig in question, Paizo data obviously wasn't one of the shops selected. I doubt they could use Paizo data for all the figs as some of the prices are so high it would skew the whole market. I am not sure "how" it selects what data to use (it's automated). I would "think" the average would be the total of all shops, But you're right outside of the average price, It doesn't look like Paizo data was used for the fig.

Here is the most up to date mini price guide collectors like myself use a guideline, Price Guide
It updates all the time and uses data from a dozen stores/websites (including Paizo) to give a low /medium/ high prices for figures in the current market. As you can see the $60 price for Aspect of Demogorgon (Archfiends) is 100% higher then the current high price ($30.00) for the figure with Paizo's own data in the equation. Apparently people who shop here are oblivious to actual prices of the fig or just don't seem to care because as stated above, it wouldn't be $60.00 unless someone was willing to pay it. $60.00 is outrageous for this fig ( I got one for $18 on ebay a couple months ago and it can routinely be bought for $15) but it's a sellers market with a captive audience. That fact they can sell at these inflated prices speaks to the loyalty of the Paizo fanbase, so Kudos for that! Impressive.

Definitely bump it up, I didn't after reading how "tough" it was and I went with 5 players (plus one being a druid some animal companion makes 6) and have regreted it. My players (well rounded, very experienced) have not had too many close calls. I've had to adjust alot encounters ( put solo bad guys in with the henchman, etc when the encounters originally listed them seperately)to make it challenging. I also bumped up HP considerably of some NPC's to average HD+1 to give them some survivability.
I'm in Hall of Harsh Reflections now and finally seeing them challenged properly, so much so I fear a TPK, damn this ones tough, Whispering Cairn is probably fine as is. but the 2nd 2 adventures I would definitely bump things up a little.

My players are quickly headed for their showdown with Zyrxog
I fear a TPK due their overall low will saves +9,+8,+7,+1,+1
his Mind Blast at DC23 is pretty overwhelming and without above average dice rolls they are going to all get smoked on that initial encounter after Telakins defeat. Question- why is his DC23? as opposed to the standard DC17, I realize he has 7 level of Sorceror but whats pumping up his mind blast DC by 5, what am I overlooking?
I don't want to just arbitrarily make it 17 without a good reason.
I just fear Zyrxog "initative" roll 18+8 = 26, "Unleashes mind blast 60 foot stun cone" DC 23" players throw some bad dice" GAME OVER brain sucked and coup de grace'd by the thralls...ouch. at DC 17 they got a chance...

TSR published an old adventure or module that centered around a travelling circus. There is also a good circus theme in the Palladium games Rifts: vampire Kingdoms.

Any idea on what the TSR product was??

I need a some background material for a side trek involving a traveling circus...anyone have any suggestion from Dungeon back issues(or anywhere else for that matter) Kind of in a time crunch.
Thanks

Well I have a weird conundrum with the Ilthane’s black egg. My PC’s took the egg and carefully placed inside the Handy Haversack. (which I allowed after they stated how carefully they picked it up and even having them make a series of rolls to see if they fumbled or dropped it. They somehow passed them all) They have been now carrying it with them for over 2 weeks.

They showed it to Allustan who told them to get it out of his house, and if they were smart would destroy it. Not taking the hint, the PC's are currently in line waiting to enter the Free City, and are planning on selling the Egg, thinking it’s a normal dragon’s egg and it’s quite valuable. Since nothing happening with Egg, left the finale of the Twisted Branch lair, somewhat anti-climatic. I am trying to come up with something exciting, that won’t get them immediately thrown in jail. For instance I thought about the Gate guards, declaring it contraband, seizing it and having it abruptly shatter all over everyone at the gate. Not the best way to start out, their adventures in the Free City. Has anyone else had similar problems with this? How did you handle the Egg?

No offense to anyone who prefers to play the type of games or characters I'm about to dismiss, but are there any other iron-fisted DMs out there like me who groan when someone brings up the idea of playing a half-dragon/giant warmage or a half-fiend/drow lich?

I am so with you there, although I may be a "double iron fisted DM. I run 3.5 games in the 1st Ed tradition so it's only core classes/races allowed and only PrC's that would be realistic (thru game events ) for the PC to have access too.

I will allow some PC classes or PrC's that are campaign specific, depending. I also don't allow use of most of the splat books either, with the exception of some things from the "complete series" if I think they are "balanced".

I wont even allow a Paladin unless the player can convince all the other player to play "lawful" characters. (which is why I am happy about the PHBII, Knight class)

I also am planning on banning druids given huge problems in my current game, (or at least write my own house rules for animal companion as IMO the rules for 3.5 are wildly unbalancing) so my friend, you are definitely not alone.
Iron Fist all the way!!

I've worked in publishing for years, and I can tell you that "fair use" is extremely vague, although it is usually applied to educational purposes. I have no wish to continue the debate, except to say that if you are distributing something for free to people that might have purchased it otherwise, you're not helping the hobby. Besides, PDFs are cheap. 'Nuff said!

Yes, its unfortunate I couldn't seem to get the point across,(although I felt I made it numerous times) that the people I gave the cheap as dirt PDF to, would NOT have otherwise purchased the product without my input. Now that I have gotten them interested, they are buying numerous other products that support the Greyhawk setting. It's like I gave them a demo, and now they are buying the game. Thanks for pointing out that "fair use" is extemely vague and thus completely subjective to the case by case context.

Can we get back to the Greyhawk argument now? ;)

By all means, I certainly would not object to an updated 3.5 Greyhawk source book. I think WotC would be suprised on how well it sold. Personally I'd buy 3 copies, 1 for myself and two to give away! (LOL!)

The problem is that you do not have a complete understanding of how these factors are used

The problem is I beg to differ with your analysis and have the personal experience to back it up. I won't bother beating a dead horse where #1 and #4 go, quality of fascimilie and lack of licensing aside. #3 is hard to get away from and is where I conceded above I should have taken the time to only use relevant sections and thus kill the argument.

Unless you'd like to take me to court to prove your assertions, lets loosen up a little bit and look at this way. I gave out 5 PDF's as a game aid to group of people I know very well who are all ethical professional people and gaming enthusiasts (Not one of whom said to me, "How dare send this to me and make me a participant in your behavior!")

All of them spend countless dollars of disposable income various things we all support. Two of them had never been played in Greyhawk and now are fans who'd like to support the setting and are currently buying old books, PDF's etc. Did I cheat some distibuter out of $20?? no, In the long run I made them money and we have two more supporters of the setting. So I gave them something they never would have purchased anyway and in turn they are interested in alot more, everybody wins. You can disagree with my methods, sure that's fair. But tell me I am breaking the law? sorry only in some fantasy court where iron masked judges throw down absolutisms without ever considering the context.

Hell after I tell them about all the grief I've gotten I can probably guilt them into paying for it and re-download it, as it's $4. Call me a criminal if you want, but I say the complete lack of understanding that context is the key to this debate, is the real crime. D20 and an open gaming license wouldn't even exist, period with the lines of thinking I see here.

I can guarantee it's a violation of the terms of the license you agreed to when you downloaded the .pdf.

Except there wasn't a "terms of license", No such stipulation was put on the purchase. you usually find that with new products released on PDF, in term of watermarks,etc. We're talking about old out of print books here made of crappy not printable scans. Anyway, I'm done on this, I made as much of a point as I can. To all- thanks for being civil about it.

For the record, farewell2kings is a police officer, and has a commendable appreciation for the law as a result.

yes, cops and educators rarely see to eye to eye, thus is life. I appauld his public service thou, thanks F2K

Even in educational settings it's not fair use.... colleges and universities spend a fortune on copyright permissions fees for a reason.

True but you aren't totally correct here are the basic tennants of fair use we use.

1-the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

2- the nature of the copyrighted work;

3- amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

4- the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work

if you apply these rules of thumb, my definition of fair use clearly holds up in my situation, I won't bother talking about consumer "fair use" which far more broad.

I once had a colleague who taught in public school who consistently was forced to make copies of books to make up for supply shortages. shall I call her to tell her she's a thief?

let me concede, that I will in the future be more sensitive to the issue as I only sent the whole PDF out of sheer laziness when I could have spent 30 mins creating the relevant sections. While what I did isn't a big deal, it does seem to push people buttons correctly or not.

I do wish you guys were more sensitive to the realities of what "is" and what "isn't" piracy the lack acceptance of context is frightening. I find this almost draconian black and white view of things held by many fellow gamers I meet on the net to be quite unsettling. This has an overall negative effect on spreading interest in PNP gaming.

You also seem to think making copies of game CD's is okay as long as you don't share the "key". Not every game required a key in order to work. Your self-rationalization knows no bounds, apparently.

If I signed an agreement not to distibute it I wouldn't. are you confusing shareware with a licensed product? I don't think it's ok to share licensed software. Are there exceptions?, probably.

You say all this is good for the creative arts. Bulls%~@--freely distributing someone else's intellectual property because YOU think it's okay is wrong. Ask all the musicians out there who can't sell more than a few hundred of their CD's because everyone burns copies of their work and shares it with friends.

Your misconstruing the context and don't have very open mind It's not all black and white as much you fight to maintain that it is. Nothing is black and white my friend, especially in the world of intellectual property.

Should we start charging our players to attend gaming sessions and send the proceeds to the publishers because the players used material they didn't pay for?
Should we tax virtual facsimiles of printed material on the internet to subsidize publishers who fear of losing money to internet piracy?
That's a dangerous road and one you seem more than willing to walk to enforce your morality.

Musicians can't make money because the music industy is an overblown, bloated and broken. It's run by mega-corporations that made an industry on exploiting artists. It's not because people are burning CD's. I say that as a former working musician who knows a zillion out of work musicians.

You say that's not the same? Once again, bulls%~@. Low-grade quality justifies stealing? Bulls%~@. Your intentions are honorable? Perhaps, but it's still wrong.

Think about that for moment, quality is absolutely relevant just because someone uses abode acrobat to assemble a PDF doesn't make the content the absolute same as the physical book. There is a big difference otherwise you'd have to consider that passing xerox'd copies is illegal too. Its the same as if I printed the PDF and faxed it (although in this case it's unprintable) Again we aren't talking about "selling" anything here.

I resent your use of the word "stealing", its not, it's "sharing" the two are mutually exclusive. Stealing is that of malice and potential for profit. Sharing, within reason, is for goodwill and to educate.(or in my instance turn new people on to greyhawk, so they buy more old books, or hopefully new books)

You know there was movement back in the 15th century called "The Renaissance" where the free exchanging of ideas led to the greatest cultural explosion in human history you should check it out sometime.

Seriously you're right about the tennis thing so lets drop it. feel free to email me at oldcoast@comcast.net should you wish to convince me I am participating in an ongoing criminal enterprise. It's not that I don't like what you have to say, it's that I don't understand your closed mindedness.

It's not "fair use" to make multiple copies or take multiple downloads of a PDF, even if you don't resell it. The multiple downloads are a courtesy extended by the seller in case your computer crashes or there's a technical glitch, it's not a free license to download the PDF multiple times and share it with your gaming group.

Again context, I am not distributing in it mass. They are very low quality scans the text barely being print quality. in the old days we used to rip the covers of books we didn't want resold. The same argument can be used toward the quality of a PDF.

No matter how innocent your intent.....you are trying to inject a grey area into something that is quite black and white. You're doing it to soothe your own conscience and because "everyone else is doing it" (which may or may not be true, I don't know).

Not true, what I am trying to is explain the misconception of what "is" and "isn't" piracy. You're letting your idealogical believes override the reality of the issue. You honestly think money is exchanged for every PDF floating around the nethersphere?. better yet, you think someone is entitled to make a buck off every single piece of copyrighted information exchanged in goodwill on the internet? This is why copyright laws have been in a state of overhaul since the late 90's

PDFs are just a more convenient way to deliver a written word product--but it's still legally a book. If someone is selling it for money, PDF or not, it's not out of print as far as the copyright law is concerned.

Untrue. there is line between a facsimile and the copyrighted product. It has to deal with quality, use, effect on the market, etc. If what you say was true, fax machines and copiers would be outlawed many years ago.

It's the same as making a copy of a computer game CD to share with your friends....quite illegal.

Wrong, Software had CD Key's sold as licenses that allow you to use the software If I give away copies of my CD Key, yes that is illegal. We dont buy individual licenses for books. I do have some licenses "watermarks" for a few new PDF's of books that at are "in print" they have your name and license stamped on them. That is becoming more prevalent. again there is difference between PDF's some are facsimiles, some are the definitive published legal works. If it had a watermark, I wouldn't share it.

Sure, it isn't practical or realistic to expect you to delete a PDF off your hard drive that you just e-mailed to your friend so he can read it, but technically you should. Making a bunch of spare copies of a copyrighted product is just as wrong, morally and legally, when done electronically.

Why not? PDF's are as disposable as anything else I have deleted many I no longer wanted or were not useful when cleaning up drives. You seem to want to inject a moral argument into where there shouldn't be one.

"Fair use" and all that stuff is just a smoke screen. As far as you being "concerned" by my hard-line stance on this issue...well, you should be....if someday the publishers find a way to figure out who's pirating PDFs the way they figured out how to catch illegal music file sharers, then your concern and "fair use" excuses won't hold any water either.

Yes the law is always smokescreen when it doesn't agree with your political or moral viewpoint, modern technology has and will be rewriting copyright law for years to come and it will have no greater impact on anything more then the creative arts.

Think about it this way--the "fair use" copy you gave to your friends now means they have a full fledged copy of the PDF you bought. They quit your game and move to another town. Are they going to buy this same PDF? No...now they share it with their new gaming friends...you know "fair use" and all. Pretty soon your one illegally shared copy of a PDF is being "fair used" all over the f'ing place. Now say that your PDF has your name embedded a a watermark, the way...

Here's where you're wrong and you again lump me and my friends in with the people that steal for profit. As collectors and game enthusiasts I expected them to buy the book if it comes there way and I don't expect them to re-distibute it. I also expect them to buy their own copy should they lose it and to also continue to buy the tons of other PDF's and books we all buy on a regular basis from lots of D20 publishers.

You seem very quick to label everyone who doesn't abide by your "morals" as crimimal, maybe we should just tap their phones and computers to make sure they don't give that PDF away, right?

Again its about context, if I was distibuting 1000's of PDF's to strangers, sure, big problem. Sharing things you legally purchased with your friends and family "is" ok to certain extent under the "fair use" entitlements of any consumer. Sharing a couple copies of a low grade, cheap facsimile of a product you already own is not like stealing someone's car.

Scanning books that are not public domain and selling the PDF is illegal; doesn't get much more simple than that.

Absolutely, that's the kind of piracy I was wondering about. Does it exist in any real extent.? You need to go to alot of trouble to scan a book and assemble a PDF to resell it. the scanner, the software, the trouble, the time. Are there bootleg PDF'ers out there selling homemade PDF's of new books?.

In my own case I refering to sharing the PDF of an out of print book (that I own as a hardcover as well) with my gaming group. Many RPG PDF's of old books come with multiple downloads for the one time small fee you pay. I consider my own action appropriate under the "fair use" entitled by any consumer who buys a copyrighted product, while I see what you describe above as piracy. My concern, which has been totally confirmed here, is that people confuse the two, or even worse see no difference.

I'm sure all the employees and owners of smaller game companies who distribute their product only in PDF appreciate your rationalization of law-breaking, especially when they fold and have to lay people off due to lack of revenue or repeat sales

Hey, no one supports the little guy more than more me, you mentioned Goodman games, I own probably 20 of their products

Let me be clear in no way shape of form am I condoning illegally distributing current products someone is trying to make a living on (particulary current PDF only releases)or distributing things you don't own.

My point again is people flipantly throw the word "piracy" around totally out of context, huge difference between sharing what you paid for with your gaming group, and stealing someone elses product for profit.

What right do you have to the material? Do you steal cars?

Umm, I purchased it legally not only once, but twice. You want to equate sharing information that you legally purchased multiple times with your fellow gamers to that of stealing cars??

Please try not to respond while brain's switch is in the "off" position. What If I am only lending it?, what if I sold it to them for a penny. You have you never lent a friend a CD or book. This kind of archaic and somewhat fascist thinking is what stifles growth in the creative arts , it doesn't encourage it.

Public domain applies to printed products, but only after some serious conditions have been met, time wise and otherwise. As far as D&D/AD&D products are concerned, Wizards bought the entire line from TSR and still has copyrights to ALL of it.

If you don't think sharing a cheap PDF for free with your friends is a big deal and there's a "nobler" purpose of supporting or enriching the campaign setting, then "support and enrich" it by paying for additional copies of the PDF. Companies that put the PDFs up for downloading for a price do so to make money, support themselves and their employees and conduct legal business.

OK so because I bought, "Greyhawk the Adventure begins" when it came out for $15 or what not, all those years ago and I recently again bought the PDF's for $4 and gave a copy to my 5 players. am I'm thief or am I a pirate? because I owe some distibuter (whom I've probably spent $100's of dollars with already) another $20????

That is a political argument my friend not a legal one.
And I would argue in court that PDF use falls under the same "copyright and fair use clauses" I subscribed to as a teacher.

Copyright laws these days have more shades of grey that any other single field. "Totalitarian" enforcement of outdated copyright laws is as unethical as the people that malicously abuse them.

My point being that "piracy" is a dirty word, that is often taken out of context. What I do, I don't consider piracy and I sleep very well at night. If people are scanning "in print" books, assembling PDF's and illegally selling them or distributing them. (I'd be suprised but it's possible)
I'd be the first guy in line in the lynch mob, even if it was Ebberon books.

Yes, it is piracy--you're distributing a copyrighted product to an unauthorized party without the effective consent of the copyright holder. Just because it's easy to do and you won't get caught and even if you get caught, you're likely to just have to pay a fine, it's still illegal.

Just because PDF technology makes it easier to share books and just because it's only $2 doesn't make it any different than photocopying an entire hardcover book and giving your friends the copies.

If you want to sell your PDF of an out of print book for a penny, is that any different than selling the book itself for a penny on ebay? if its out print, it's out print. Public domain takes over after time, PDF's ( virtual facsimiles) are nothing more than advertisements for the sought after originals.

My point is there is a huge difference between sharing a resource to help perpetuate the setting and helping it thrive to a new audience and maliciously pirating books out of greed or for personal gain. While I think swapping out of print low quality PDF's isn't a big deal (especially when all of us when presented a case to buy the physical books jump at it. We've all purchased hundreds of PDF's and have many thousands of dollars of printed prodcuts).

Stealing a PDF of a newly released book or even buying it and putting it for free download is whole another story. How prevalent is that? does it happen to a larger extent?
As far as I know WotC makes very few of their current books available on PDF to begin with. Are people seriously scanning in new books assembling PDF's and distributing them illegally?
or is the word "piracy" just being casually thrown around without thought of the proper context. I wonder.

Maybe this is an odd or dumb question. But who the hell is "pirating" Greyhawk PDF's that have an average cost of $2-5? while some books are super rare ( yes call me crazy, I recently paid $25 for an excellent condition "Baltron's Beacon") most GH books on ebay can be found at a very reasonable price. I can see the potential of piracy for newer WotC material as they charge full price for PDF's, but access to these books in PDF form is very limited, so unless your talking about secret mass illegal sharing or what not I just don't get "piracy" angle here. Maybe I am just being naive but I see roleplayers as pretty damn supportive of the industry being its such a niche market. It's way less likey that piracy has any significant impact.

Here's a question: As most PDF's are not not serious print quality anyway, and collectors still covet the physical book. Does anyone think sharing a $5 PDF of an out of print book with your fellow players is piracy?

I didn't get much mileage out of Kullen and the Gang, well I guess I did, it's just somewhat-anti climatic. Initially my group was quite intimidated by the gang (rightfully so) and avoided them.

Since most of the group are Diamond Lake natives the gang's reputation fro trouble and murder was well known. When it came time to follow up on Skutch's arm from the Land Farmstead. The PC's managed to stike a deal with the gang ( who were freshly aggravated by Filge's behavior and the ordeal with Owlbear) Kullen was convinced that Smenk and filge didn't have there best interests in mind and offered to tell the PC's everything they knew in exchange for that "Thin bastards eyes" when the PC's balked at murdering Filge, Kullen basically said you'll do it, "or else". The PC's figured they it was going to end bloody anyway and went about cleaning out the observatory, killing Filge in the process and giving Kullen his "Eyes".

The PC's now have a truce with the gang, and Smenk is soon to be turned over to the authorites as we wrap up 3FoE. SO what of the gang?, I hate to leave them in limbo. The PC's are more than a match for them at this point, Kullen and company have zero interest in tangling with the PC's and have split town temporarily shacking up in the abandoned mining office (Fant Manor) once occupied by the PC's until the fallout from 3FoE has died down.

I had a few ideas for the future of the group

1. They turn up a few level's higher in Greyhawk as one of the teams in the Champion's Games. maybe even fighting the PC's directly.

2. They stick around Diamond Lake causing trouble using Fant Manor as they're base. Illthane following up on rumor that the PC's once used it as a base. Plants numerous potions and liquor nearby that all contain slowworm and that would be easily discovered. The gang of course finds the stuff and greedily ingests it. When the PC's travel to the Whispering Cairn to look for Allustan, they'll notice some movement around their old hideout, Finding 5 Spawn of Kyuss to greet them.

3. maybe a combo of both?

Questions- Is Spawn of Kyuss a template that can be applied to a leveled character, or do you just become the 4 HD spawn as listed in issue 126 when your turn?

Anyone else have anyother interesting resolution with the gang other than a direct confrontation with the PC's?

It's unfortunate that Greyhawk didn't take off in third edition,

Couldn't disagree more, third ed is what unretired myself and many other old timers who wanted to dive back into Greyhawk with the new rules after a long absence. The LGG was just a bonus.

With Faerun, they had a certain level of popularity there thanks to existing fans of the Baldur's Gate games and all those Forgotten Realms novels. Even so, the market for those is limited compared to the entire market for D&D fans, and there's the problem again that old fans already know a lot about the setting. Thus, they avoid writing more Forgotten Realms books, because the money spent on one book could be better spent on a book which will sell at least twice as well.

Huh? last time I checked Salvatores books were more popular than ever, there are 15 FR novels coming out in 2006. I don't really get what your trying to say here.

With Eberron, what I think they're doing is trying to target the modern gamer, the roleplayer.

I think you're giving WotC way too much credit there. They needed a new setting to pump out more product and the more different the setting the better so there would be less overlap with the core material and that means even more splat books. More books = More cash, if they can drum up the interest. If anything Ebberon is geared toward a younger video game crowd not traditional roleplayers. That's not a slam on it's writers or the setting just the way it comes off. Getting new players into game anyway possible is great, but whether the setting can hold its salt, lets check back in 15 years or so.

As for the initial graph it's kind of silly, people who play Greyhawk for the most part aren't out googling "Greyhawk" as the half dozen of sites that support are pretty common knowledge and are well linked. The Greyhawk fanbase in reality is probably the smallest, but I'd say the most vocal and defintely has lots of expendable income to support the setting.

Yeah, the training thing was a dilemna for me too, as I have always used it in some aspect. Since I always calculate XP after the session, and I don't allow PC's to level up during a session. It has become that you simply level up between sessions if you have XP. Example in 3FoE my group hit level 4 after a harrowing battle in the main temple. (Were my PC's made the bad mistake of splitting up- 3 three of them falling into Theldricks Ambush, while other two were locked out of the room. Thankfully some good rolls and quick thinking prevented the apparent TPK.) Since they cleared the entire area and the nights game came to a close, they are safe to rest there and continue on at 5th level when we start next time. Leveling up for us has become more of an organic progression as the players naturally evolve as it's always taking place outside the game.

The formatting does not carry over as accurately as it does from a web browser. For example, line returns are generally added after every line, making it difficult to insert into other documents. I don't see the advantage to using a pdf if you're only dealing with text.

Thats a very minor point to justify doing two different supplement releases. (text and graphics) You're right there is not advatange to using PDF with just text. However as we know supplements contain both.

What do you mean by "formatting the supplement for release"?

I mean assembling the PDF for release, it takes time to lay it out. Gathering your source material that was already completed when the magazine went to print isnt a big deal, It's putting togethtr the supplement package that time consuming.

It isn't twice the work. 95% of the work for the adaptation notes are writing, editing and approving them. This isn't twice as much as that.

It's twice the work to release a seperate webpage supplement

While understand your desire for detailed conversion notes for all settings. I just don't think its practical as these supplements are provided outside the magazine itself. Frankly its alot to ask, especially when those of us who have been doing this for years, don't need them. For instance if AP3 was totally generic and I needed to do a Greyhawk converison, no problem give me an evening and I'd have it done. I am sure you being an Ebberon authority could do the same. Again, so why the firedrill over conversion notes?. They are nice sure, but do they make or break the AP?, I'd say no. granted its nice to know what your favorite authors think, but being an obligatory requirement that Dungeon Editors provide just is not realistic. I know you will just continue to argue until someone agrees with you, so kindly have the last word.

-Appending: You can cut and paste the notes into a word processor and expand them with your own notes

just some FYI on PDF's use "hand tool" and "select" you CAN copy and paste out of any PDF with just the free reader download. For graphics, use camera tool to copy and paste on the clipboard to any graphics program, works like a charm.

-Print Formatting: It is easier to format text that is cut and pasted than it is to format pdf documents

Not particulary.

-Independent: Paizo can publish the notes without waiting for the maps and handouts to be available

Doesn't make much sense, unless for some reason the conversions are done before the magazine goes to print, which I seriously doubt. Once the art's done the time consuming thing is formating the supplement for release, not juggling the content.

Ideally Paizo could publish the notes online as a web enhancement and then bundle them in later with the pdf supplement.

Twice the work why? Just for you?, No one else seems to be demanding this. You could also do your own Ebberon conversion notes and be done with the thing as soon as you see fit. With Savage Tide being set on the edge of civilization I dont see much demand for rigid locations with any sort of Canon continuity. There are only so many places it could be in either

A bit off topic, but probably of interest to Takasi. I never would have paid any attention to Eberron if it wasn't for Paizo and Dungeon or Dragon magazine. However, having read some of the cool Eberron adventures that Paizo published and reading some of the Eberron articles in Dragon (most notably, the Lords of Dust by Mr. Baker), I've come to the conclusion that Eberron might be worth exploring as a future campaign world....at least it's cool enough for me to plunder if I'm not going to run an Eberron game outright.

I have the Sharn HC and I have the ECS on order, due to arrive in 7-10 days. So, despite your apparent belief that Paizo isn't doing enough to support the "official and professional" game settings (whatever that means), they have exposed me to enough Eberron material in the last year and a half that I've gone out and bought it.

Funny, Until about a month ago I was pretty "neutral" on Ebberon as I just haven't had the need or interest to get into a new setting. However, thanks mainly to Takasi's hamfisted trolling on three different message boards, I now loathe it and have no interest in it to the point of readily partaking in the backlash against it as it concerns Dungeon. I always thought Dungeon had a pretty good balance of material setting wise, I am looking forward to the new WotC Ravenloft material coming up in fall and thought maybe we might see an adventure in pages of Dungeon to coincide . ( Point being I never assumed any type of bias within Dungeon, I just always assumed they will cover the bases as they see fit and as material is available) If I thought for one second Erik and James were doing anything other than laughing at Takasi's monotony , I'd be canceling my subscription in a heartbeat. I can't believe I am alone there.

Some great ideas there, thanks! Nixing the teleporting is a great idea, that with Ziggaraut and Library as time sinks, real overland travel and a side trek or two could stretch the the time between arriving in Magepoint and discovering existence the pyhlactery to quite a while. In the end I just want the epic feeling of the campaign to continue to really mount, if it all comes too fast it ends up seeming a bit too linear or directed. To me a nice sense of time gives it that epic scope. Good point on LotR, I think the whole LotR sage takes place over 18 months or so, if can get that Im good.

I am a couple months into our AoW AP, and one of the things that concerns me is the overall sense of time in the game. Running in Greyhawk we started in the begining of the year 595 to coincide with the weather in real life. Chronologically I have been keeping a very realistic track of time, and we are about 1 month into the campaign (game time) and currently into "Three Faces of Evil".

That seems on track timewise as the Champions Games will be in the Spring, as I think they should be. After that is where I forsee problems. Personally I have an issue with my players PC's shooting from level 1 to 20 within the course of one game year.

In past my campaigns that where module based. There were long spans between adventures (and in real life) where PC's did other things, phasing in new / replacement PC's, regrouping only to head out on the next adventure. entire campaigns could have a timeline of 5 to 10 years or longer.

With the urgency of AoW and wealth of material I have prepared, running the AoW has become one long 20 level Mega Adventure with one group of PC's

Currently I am looking for ideas on how realistically increase the span of game time and still keep the momentum of game going.

One of the obvious ideas I had was making the Ziggaruat in the "Spire of Long Shadows" a time sink where while inside the obsidian ring time came to a crawl, While the time on Oerth rapidly passed the group by. The result being while the adventure seem to only last several days for the PC's, Six months had passed in the outside world. Tenser ( manzorian) and the rest have assumed the PC's were destroyed.

During the groups abscence several new prophecies have materialized and stopping the Age of Worm's has become ever so more urgent. Outside of that and possibly running a side trek to Hellspike Prison while the PC's wait for Tenser to return to Magepoint in the opening of the "Spire of Long Shadows"
I am stumped on idea's on how to push the whole path to hopefully at least a two year game timeline.

I am curious if anyone else has had a similar dilema? What options have you used?

No, he heavily implied that is was MORE difficult:

"I've purchased at least 10 download supplements and spent hours on Cannonfire and several other Greyhawk websites to get things like maps for overland travel to the Free City, city maps of the Free City, background on the politics of various relevant places, background on the Amedio Jungle, the Rift, and the Cairn Hills, etc. No nice, neat little detailed campaign handbooks to allow plug and play!"

Well again, the LLG gives a nice brief overwiew of those locations plus the continent map.

anyways, if you keep going here's the rest of it.

"It's been fun, mind you, and it gives the DM some flexibility instead of having everything completely canned, but it is time consuming, and it would have been hard to do AoW with the kind of verisimilitude I like in my game if I were having to do the research in support of a weekly game. So please don't complain too much about Greyhawk getting all the support from the Dungeon staff."

I took his entire post as leaning towards my take it on it. Realisitcally we are probably just reading what we want to read out of it.

FR is far more popular than Greyhawk or Eberron. Go into any hobby shop and show them a picture of Drizz't and Elminster and ask them to identify them. Show them maps and ask them to identify them. Among the hardcore grognards yes Greyhawk is more popular than ever, but new players know much more about the worlds of Baldur's Gate and D&D Online.

Hobby shop walls filled with WotC products are not an indication of whose playing what, they just indicate how much stuff WotC is pumping out. If you've noticed most FLGS these days are on the way "OUT" not "IN" as discount book sellers just crush them unless the store has stong community support.

Without hard sales figures you don't just really know. I won't deny FR isnt popular ( I'm suprised we haven't seen Drizzit doing a Calvin Klein underwear ad on the side of a city bus.)

We are talking about who is using FR as a setting for Dungeons AP. I own about a dozen FR books, but haven't run an FR game since 3rd Ed game out, I bought some books, but just don't play the setting. I am sure I am not alone in that. From the general posts on this board, it looks to me as people are Running the AP in Either GH or Ebberon with FR being a solid third, maybe I am wrong?, but that's how it looks to me.

You cannot hold computer games to any kind of standard of whats being represented in the PNP world the crossover is limited. While exposeur to D&D via computer games is a good thing, the percentage of people that actual move to the gaming table is small. While the Baldur's Gate and IWD games were wildly successful it's setting was largely irrelevant to its success. As for D&D online , they can't give that thing away, I played the beta and in 2 weeks I was bored to tears on top of that the Ebberon influence is very limited at best, my bet it's servers wil be offline this time next year.

As you can see from the post that I originally replied to, that DM claimed it was more work to put together his campaign in Greyhawk than it would be in the more mainstream settings.

I wasn't taking that to be his meaning at all. I thought he was saying that it took just as much work to put the Campaign together as he had used another licensed setting. Essentially what he was saying is, When Dungeon is using Greyhawk as the base for the AP is not like they are giving a "free ride" to the DM. There is still alot of work to do what ever setting you use.

I assume by mainstream you mean current? as in Ebberon?
Otherwise how is FR any more mainstream then GH, despite WotC not supporting it, it doesn't seem to have lost it's popularity, in fact its more popular than ever.

The Central Authority is WotC, not the FRCS, and possibly the RPGA and occasionally Paizo, though I'm not sure if that's centralized because I'm not sure if they work together on their updated canon.

Ok, I misunderstood you there. I do agree that GH needs another

The FRCS is available as a new book from most online sites and has updated 3.5 books. The LGG is much more difficult to find and again very little support from the retail shelf.

The LGG Less than 8 bucks from numerous sources on Amazon isnt hard to find. The FRCS still holds at $25. Remember the flexibilty of Greyhawk canon is part of its appeal. The amount FR canon material certainly has been know to be a turn off to the setting as well.

As the editors have said, even if they make one reference with a proper noun from a campaign setting then the adventure leaves the reader with the impression that they would need to purchase additional source material to get the most out of the adventure.

I agree, so if they are going to name drop. Why not Greyhawk ?It is cheapest to get into,. The material is readily available and is "as" easy to access as any other setting. The AP's are designed to be able to be run with just the core books. Greyhawk is the setting that is considered "core" as it's deities and characters are referenced in the core books. Greyhawk is still a very popular setting and is supported by Dungeon. Seems like a "No Brainer" to me. Again sorry, I just find zero merit and no irony in your arguments that somehow it would be easier on the DM if the AP was set in FR or Ebberon, I think people that dont like either of those settings would just not subscribe or look somewhere else for there adventures.

You've been playing in Greyhawk for 20+ years, so arguably you don't even need that.

True for myself, I meant for the uninitiated. Example.

The material you're pointing to is outdated, spread out and lacking of a central authority for clarifying the shared world save the RPGA.

Not anymore outdated than the Core FR material. LGG came out around the same time as the 3rd Ed. FRCS. Why is the LGG any less a central authority than the FRCS?

Look at the Bibliography for the Savage Tide; already there are half a dozen references that to be tracked down and scoured through As you've said, they're also very difficult to get in print format, which is the preferred method of using RPG material. You could print them yourself, but even that can be more expensive than buying a few sourcebooks.

From what I briefly see mentioned about Savage Tide and its GH references it seems this AP is going to be even more generic than the last. The more generic they are the more flexible they are to adapt to any setting. That just means more work for the DM. Why would you need to print PDF's out? printing a page or two (or a couple dozen) of reference material for a game is still alot cheaper than buying any settings core and splat books.

Dungeons premise is not to require players to hunt down obscure source material from decades of collected works either, yet you'd prefer they only choose to connect their backdrops to a world that recommends this?

No, the OP's detailed resource gathering is strictly his choice. Dungeon's premise is to run the AP using the Core Rules as a guide. You can have as little or as much setting as you desire. If you want to dig up old reference material or go by the newest license setting, great. They're are both mutually exclusive and the choice is yours . You tend to play what's familiar to you.

Your claim that some how Ebberon or FR is somehow easier to run as you have better access to background material just isn't viable. Any of the stuff is as easily available as you want to make it. You either go buy the books or dig up a few things on the net, again I'd say the latter is easier for the uninitiated, its certainly the cheapest.

Then it doesn't matter if they provide these references from Greyhawk, Eberron, FR or all three does it?

Hey I think the supplements are great, however the more "generic" they make AP there more people will ask for "Greyhawk" conversions as well. Then they'll need to do three conversions instead of two. So why not use generic GH references as base?, As its been shown here, a few GH references in the AP does not somehow make the AP a "Greyhawk" Adventure. You still have to tailor it to your game to the exent of detail you're comfortable with. Greyhawk is just the easiest setting to convert from as its the most generic, out of date or not. Eberron is hardest setting to convert from as its the most specific.

The bigger issue as I see it is that dropping references from WotC newest setting as the basic references in the AP would be seen as bit suspect. It would look like effort by Dungeon to push the new WotC material, and push its readers to "buy more books". Feeling like you had to go out and purchase the ECS in order to play the AP wouldn't be very cool. I don't know what would turn off people to the magazine more than that.

AFAIK Dungeon is under zero obligation to promote one setting over another. We are all free to take their published material in which ever direction we wish, I find your continued arguments to quanify Ebberon as somehow "core" in the pages of Dungeon somewhat bizarre, sorry.

Ironically, the set world they've chosen is more esoteric and difficult to find support for; they could have chosen other licensed settings that are much easier to obtain information on. As you pointed out, it took you a great deal more work to flesh out our campaign.

Takasi,

While I admire your campaign and your over the top dedication to Ebberon that's simply not the case. Even you aren't like me and others here who have been playing Greyhawk for 20+ years. All you need to get tons of ready made background material for AoW in Greyhawk is access to Canonfire, The Greyhawk Adventure begins PDF which is $4 dollars and optionally the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer (cheap). I even argue all you really need is the $4 PDF, thou the other things are nice.

Jumping into Ebberon or FR from scratch costs you a ton of money buying the campaign setting and all the various supplements. What's easier tracking down a few readily available PDF's on this site? Or forking over a few hundred on a licensed setting? Having to do the latter is actually the Antithesis of Dungeons premise to be able run the AP from the Core rulebooks alone. There is no irony there, sorry.

That's my PC's did. They ended up killing Filge in combat after making a deal with Kullen and his gang for information. As no one knew anyone was living there, they moved themselves in and cleaned it up and puts some new locks on it. No one in town really knows they are staying there, except Smenk who of course has other plans for our PC's. Once they clean up Diamond Lake, should they decide to stay there in their new found celebrity I will probably have Mayor Neff Tax them retroactively if they want to keep it.

Is anyone using the Seekers in their game?

The WC mentions a Seeker Lodge in the Free City, where one can find details on Ulavant's band.

So how are others using the Seekers?

I used the Seekers as my initial hook as one player (the PC leader , a Cleric of Pelor from GH ) came to Diamond Lake on the trail of his missing mentor ( a Cleric and budding Archeologist) This fellow discovered mention of Ulavant's band in old tomes of the Seeker Lodge in Greyhawk went exploring after them and disappeared.

Our young Cleric followed up on his mentors note's and followed him to Diamond Lake where he recruited a group of locals ( the rest of my PC's ) and off to the Whispering Cairn they went to look for the missing priest. (who actually never even made it to the WC, as he was tricked by Smenk and ended up as the experiment in the Faceless One's lab, a whole nother story)
Anyway it worked out quite nicely.

The PC's all seem to think the Seekers are all involved in AoW's greater plot. We are only the middle of 3FoE right now, So I have alot of time to expand. I haven't made use of Khellek yet and not sure I will as my people seem to be afraid of Auric and his group and are avoiding them like the plague. I was thinking about changing up the HoHR and adding a Seeker subplot, having the Sodden Hold baddies being replaced Seekers or even Telakin being affiliated with the Seekers himself. Since I gotten zero milage out of our rival adventures, I was thinking about even throwing Khellek into the mix having him involved in HoHR then escaping only to turn up as an opponent in the Champions Belt.

I , for the most part, love Dungeon Crawls, so maybe I'm not to best person to give you the answer you're looking for. However, I have often thought about what I think you're trying to get at. I see the thing that separates the great dungeon crawls (i.e, Tomb of Horrors, White Plume, etc.) from the average is the narrative that is carried along during play . If the story/hook/concept are great that's not all that matters. That great narrative has to be sustained throughout all the encounters in the game. Even if the story is light and concept is good, (for instance Goodman Game's DDC line is quite popular.) The game can still be very enjoyable, again when that sense of urgency is always present.

When things actually become a "crawl" in a negative sense is when the games become exactly that. You're limited to room after room of oddly placed things that don't make sense in the narrative or things seem to just be an exercise in endless combat. When encounters, or too many encounters allow the narrative to get lost is where problems set in. I find the Return to Temple of Elemental Evil's Crater Lake region to be an prime example of this. The narrative gets lost to hordes of endless combat and you quickly find yourself saying "why are we here again?".

Even the greatest Dungeon Crawl of all time (IMO), Necromancer Games, "Rappan Athuk" suffers from this to an extent. (Although if you sign up for Rappan Athuk you already know what you're in for, just plan on bringing a six-pack of replacement characters).

I have often found investigative, heavy dialogue, or adventures that require lots of non-combat related role playing tend to become "Crawls" of another kind. I hate to say it but I find both types of games are somewhat mutually exclusive with a very thin line of overlap. Striking that balance is key and rare. Overall the narrative and the concept override the physical setting everytime as long as that narrative is sustainable. I think if anyone doesn't think "The Whispering Cairn" contains the best balance of material in a single adventure in years, then you shouldn't worry about getting across to them as they are looking for a different kind of game.

Age of Worms is my chance to give a hurrah for the type of game I was raised playing, and the type of game that was most popular when the game itself was most popular. Given the demographics of the magazine, I think a large number of our readers probably feel the same way.

Yup, it was a great Ed. and its nostaglia of those early memories reminded me of why I started playing again after a long absence with the 3rd Ed release. As long as you're putting out stuff like AoW, you got my money.

Hi,

I've read through this numerous times and am running it tomorrow night . One minor detail is escaping me. What is the purpose significance of the broken marble index finger in area 5 from the sarcophagus in area 7 ??. The text mentions it's clue to the true tomb, but I seem to be missing "what" that clue is. Any input is appreciated.

FYI for Vic W, I received my #133 on monday so my #132 100% for sure disappeared somewhere, so thanks again for quick #132 replacement.

Thanks Vic!,

OK, it's official no issue 132 for me either..I find this really strange as I live 100 miles from where it's shipped from, in a major metro area (chicago) I noticed last month issue arrived on the 11th so about month after shipping, this one seems to have disappeared into winds. If you guys would kindly send me new one, IF my #132 does somehow show up one day I will gladly ship my extra back to Paizo on my dime so your not out two copies of the mag.

Let me know thanks!

Ok, I see in another thread the mags are shipped from Mendota, IL???? That is about 100 miles away from me and my issue # 132 shipped over a month ago!!. I think its reasonable if I don't see #132 today, I should be able to request an issue be re-sent to me directly, Last month I got # 131 around the 10th-11th so even by that standard mines late or lost.

I think one of the benefits of subscribing is the savings. You pay about $40 for 12 issues. If you bought 12 issues through a store, it would cost over $80. And if you bought them one-by-one over the Paizo website, you would have to pay $11 an issue after shipping and handing. I also do not see where it says you will get the magazine before the newsstand.

excellent point I was not thinking about the cost savings. I just "assummed" (ha-ha) that as az subscriber I would get the magazine before the newstand, just like every other magazine I subscribe to!. Regardless this isn't a huge deal, I am just wondering if something is wrong with the distribution. And it appears from Vic's answer there is not. So it's really boils down to do I want to pay 200-300% more for the magazine in order to get it a week or so earlier.

as a Dungeon subscriber living in chicago, I am finding it odd you guys are shipping my issues around the middle of the month and its taking a month to be delivered? As a subscriber aren't I supposed to get my issue before it hits the newstands?
(otherwise whats the point). Consistently I am receiving my issues 3-5 days after it hits newstands, but you're advertising it shipped to me a month ago. If I order direct from the Paizo store I get always get things within a week.

Can you guys help me understand this? as I am seeing zero point in subscribing when I can either order the issues from the store or just buy it on the newstand and get the issue earlier than I do as a subscriber

Thanks