One of my players had become obsessed with finding out what lay bwyond the impassible collapse in chamber 3 of the Whispering Cairn. She is a druid, and apparently unimpressed with the other numerous draws of the dungeon, applied her daily alotment of spells to solving this riddle.
She approached the cave-in and stated that she was casting SOFTEN EARTH AND STONE (pg 280). I quickly reviewed the spell and told her that she achieved no effect beyond softening up a few feet of stones and digging through to find more stones barring her way.
This caused her to accuse me of cheating (because she admitedly glimpsed at the area beyond when I held up the map once), caused me to dodge a pencil thrown at me, and ultimately resulted in postponement of the game until next week. AND THEY WERE SO CLOSE TO Z'S TOMB!
After a night of reflection, I've come to the conclusion that I was technically, if not thematically (probably not a word but...)right in denying the party access to the chamber and pulling out AGoW prematurely. Still, the spell is a tricky one to read. My arguments are as follows -
1) SOFTEN EARTH AND STONE explicitly states that "When the spell is cast, all natural, undressed earth OR stone in the spell's area is affected."
The word "OR" suggests to me at least one or the other. The cave-in is most likely comprised of both.
2) Furthermore, it strikes me that this spell is designed for a solid two-dimensional surface, say the ground under one's feet. While it can affect depth (1 to 4 feet) it seems unlikely that the collapse would be affected greatly due to it's density and the variety of it's makeup.
3) The campaign states that it would take weeks to tunnel through. Even if the PCs in my campaign could alter the physical makeup of the collapse wouldn't it still be as difficult to tunnel through? All they did, in essence was turn 20 tones of rubble into 20 tons of clay.
Please my fellow DMs, my campaign needs your help. I look forward to reading your numerous and various responses.
She had no idea how big the collapse was, until she saw your map? There's your problem and your answer right there. You're simply exercising your right as the DM to put that room somewhere else, and her spells simply can't reach it.
She needs a good cave-in, sounds like.
I had a similar problem with my players. They spent days digging at them rocks! I simply didn't give them a chance to get through (so I'm a bastard).
The reason, in my case, for the obsession was that I showed them the map of the cairn which I downloaded from paizo, and showed them the "player" version. On that map, they show a cave-in but they also show a room beyond the rocks. I didn't realize that until they noticed, and of course they wanted to see what was on the other side.
So word of advice to any who haven't started the Whispering Cairn: If you print out the player map, be sure to erase the room behind the cave-in before you show it to the players.
Let them through! But don't change the encounters on the other side. When they can't get past the Abyssal Ghoul, they'll get the hint to take a different course. And the ghoul can't chase them down and TPK them, so big deal. A mystery for another day.
One of my NPCs is an ex-miner.
During his downtime he and the NPC wizard (Alahaster?)
were digging out the area.
The portal does not have to be activateable till the
adventureres are of a high enough level.
Note that if the area is not reinforced as it is dug out, it will collapse again.
In my game I am not letting them go after the dragon's treasure yet.
Neither should you let them jump to the next Wind Duke's tomb.
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As Goth Guru suggested, DMs can simply have them find an inactive gate on the other side of the cave-in. Describe it as an undamaged but otherwise unremarkable version of the ruined device in the opposite alcove.
The only way to really get past the rubble with Soften Earth and Stone would be to cast it at the top of the cave-in, which I believe is 20' off the ground. Multiple castings are also likely needed.
Reading the spell description I'd say it affects *all* natural, undressed earth or stone...meaning both. If it were to affect either one or the other at a time the description would've made specific mention of this limitation.
I agree with Vyvyan; let them through if they spend the time & energy on it. Spending weeks on tunnelling is their perogative but it could come with a price:
1) The amount of effort the party is putting into the cairn will increase the chance that the location becomes known to others. They'll quickly return focus to the cairn proper once rivals show up!
2) The gate itself will pose an unsurmountable barrier once they get to it. A couple deaths to the Abyssal Ghoul might put the gate onto their 'to do later' list.
In other words, focusing their efforts in the dig may have detrimental consequences...but they brought them on themselves ;)
J-
Okay, she's metagaming on you (using player knowledge as though it were character knowledge, which is one of the few ways to "cheat" at D&D) and then accusing you of cheating? If you want to really give it to her, then you should definitely have the abyssal ghoul emerge from the portal, maybe even kill (or curse or disease) one of the characters. Or just leave it inactive, as said. If they're dead set on clearing out the cave-in, you should let them. But maybe have some encounters around Diamond Lake to increase the urgency; Sheriff Cubbin is getting suspicious and is looking to take his cut of their "claim", the Free City adventurers are realizing that they've been fed bum information and, hey, where did that group of hicks get that brand new magic short sword? Maybe if the group is discussing their plans in a tavern, they can make a spot check to notice Tirra listening in. Give them lots of hints that maybe they should concentrate on the areas of the tomb they can explore right now rather than the stuff that requires boring grunt work to get to.
In my game, I've had Khellek actively threaten a party member after noticing the Seeker ring they found in the Cairn. That lit a fire under their butts and got them moving. If after all that they decide that they still want to excavate the tunnel, have the Free City trio march right into the tomb while they're working, check the place out, find Zosiel's tomb and waltz on out with his circlet and everything. Competition can be great for motivation.
She approached the cave-in and stated that she was casting SOFTEN EARTH AND STONE (pg 280). I quickly reviewed the spell and told her that she achieved no effect beyond softening up a few feet of stones and digging through to find more stones barring her way.
1) SOFTEN EARTH AND STONE explicitly states that "When the spell is cast, all natural, undressed earth OR stone in the spell's area is affected."
The word "OR" suggests to me at least one or the other. The cave-in is most likely comprised of both.2) Furthermore, it strikes me that this spell is designed for a solid two-dimensional surface, say the ground under one's feet. While it can affect depth (1 to 4 feet) it seems unlikely that the collapse would be affected greatly due to it's density and the variety of it's makeup.
3) The campaign states that it would take weeks to tunnel through. Even if the PCs in my campaign could alter the physical makeup of the collapse wouldn't it still be as difficult to tunnel through? All they did, in essence was turn 20 tones of rubble into 20 tons of clay.
I think your initial response was quite correct - the spell would turn some of the broken stone into clay to a depth of a couple of feet, over a 10-foot-square area. Note that the passages are 20 feet wide and tall, so this would definitely risk causing a further collapse, if the digging wasn't shored up properly.
1) I diasagree with you here. I think the spell would affect any earth and and any stone in the area.
2) The spell also states that it can be used on cavern ceilings or cliff faces, so I think your druid's use is a reasonable extension of that.
3) Multiple applications of the spell would be required to dig all the way through the collapse; this would reduce the digging time somewhat, but it would still need to be done very carefully.
I think your best bet is to let the druid dig through if she really wants to - it will still take several days, and likely collapse again if she doesn't have experienced help.
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One of my players had become obsessed with finding out what lay bwyond the impassible collapse in chamber 3 of the Whispering Cairn. She is a druid, and apparently unimpressed with the other numerous draws of the dungeon, applied her daily alotment of spells to solving this riddle.
She approached the cave-in and stated that she was casting SOFTEN EARTH AND STONE (pg 280). I quickly reviewed the spell and told her that she achieved no effect beyond softening up a few feet of stones and digging through to find more stones barring her way.
This caused her to accuse me of cheating (because she admitedly glimpsed at the area beyond when I held up the map once.
<snip>
1) SOFTEN EARTH AND STONE explicitly states that "When the spell is cast, all natural, undressed earth OR stone in the spell's area is affected."
The word "OR" suggests to me at least one or the other. The cave-in is most likely comprised of both.2) Furthermore, it strikes me that this spell is designed for a solid two-dimensional surface, say the ground under one's feet. While it can affect depth (1 to 4 feet) it seems unlikely that the collapse would be affected greatly due to it's density and the variety of it's makeup.
3) The campaign states that it would take weeks to tunnel through. Even if the PCs in my campaign could alter the physical makeup of the collapse wouldn't it still be as difficult to tunnel through? All they did, in essence was turn 20 tones of rubble into 20 tons of clay.
You didn't cheat. She did by using player's knowledge instead of character's knowledge. Beyond that, you're the DM. If she doesn't get the hint that not allowing her access means they're not supposed to go there (yet), that's her problem. Not yours.
Onward with specific pts:
1) The way I understand the spell, both earth and stone will be affected. That said, two points:
a) the depth affected is 4 ft at best. No way she is going to go through the rubble without a great many casting of the same spell.
b) the spell's description states ".. all natural, undressed earth or stone..". The rubble she is trying to affect is NOT "natural, undressed" since it results from the collapse of walls that were man-made in the first place. She wouldn't be able to affect a floor made of flagstones, whether they were intact or broken. This isn't different.
2) Indeed.
3) Exactly, that alone should give them pause.
When your group meets again and she insists on digging through, the best way to handle this is to ask her "Do you really want to? 100% certain you wish to do this now?" while fetching your Fiend Folio and starting to open it. If she still doesn't get the hint, time to bring the abyssal ghoul to the fore and end the charade in a world of pain. That should cure her with extreme prejudice.
I say let them work on it. Make the portal inactive has it takes the "approbation of Icosiol" first. There's nothing wrong with it being non-functional until the events at the Champion's Games unfold.
Think about it this way, the Wind Dukes probably didn't want tomb robbers to enter the resting place of their greatest hero (Icosiol) and made the portal activate only in time of need...which isn't the case before the whole big undead maggot release. That event "triggers" the opening the portal, because it represents a great leap in the advent of the AOW.
The spirit of the Wind Dukes then release the magical defenses on the tomb enabling the weapons and treasure within to be passed on to whorty heroes in this time of need.
To make it non-rail-roading, make the magical propreties dispellable (CL 20th), put a symbol of pain or fear when someone touches the portal, put a Repulsion spell, or make Hurricane force winds blow everybody in that section (they're Wind Dukes after all), or any other non-lethal protection you want.
Don't deny your players the fact that they want to know what's behind the rubble. But you should make it difficult.
Hope it helps.
Ignoring the metagaming aspect, because that's what this is, let them at it! There's no way a low level party can (or would want to!) get past the abyssal ghoul portal. They will be dead within rounds of attempting to do so. Be careful what you wish for...
One of my players had become obsessed with finding out what lay bwyond the impassible collapse in chamber 3 of the Whispering Cairn. She is a druid, and apparently unimpressed with the other numerous draws of the dungeon, applied her daily alotment of spells to solving this riddle.
She approached the cave-in and stated that she was casting SOFTEN EARTH AND STONE (pg 280). I quickly reviewed the spell and told her that she achieved no effect beyond softening up a few feet of stones and digging through to find more stones barring her way.
This caused her to accuse me of cheating (because she admitedly glimpsed at the area beyond when I held up the map once), caused me to dodge a pencil thrown at me, and ultimately resulted in postponement of the game until next week. AND THEY WERE SO CLOSE TO Z'S TOMB!
After a night of reflection, I've come to the conclusion that I was technically, if not thematically (probably not a word but...)right in denying the party access to the chamber and pulling out AGoW prematurely. Still, the spell is a tricky one to read. My arguments are as follows -1) SOFTEN EARTH AND STONE explicitly states that "When the spell is cast, all natural, undressed earth OR stone in the spell's area is affected."
The word "OR" suggests to me at least one or the other. The cave-in is most likely comprised of both.2) Furthermore, it strikes me that this spell is designed for a solid two-dimensional surface, say the ground under one's feet. While it can affect depth (1 to 4 feet) it seems unlikely that the collapse would be affected greatly due to it's density and the variety of it's makeup.
3) The campaign states that it would take weeks to tunnel through. Even if the PCs in my campaign could alter the physical makeup of the collapse wouldn't it still be as difficult to tunnel through? All they did, in essence was turn 20 tones of rubble into 20 tons of clay.
Please my fellow DMs, my campaign needs your help. I look forward to reading your numerous and various responses.
A quick reference to the DMG page 18 "DM cheating and player perceptions" paragraph 2 lines 1 and 2 clearly state that as the DM you CAN'T cheat!
'Fraid I have to agree with the posts concerning your "metagaming" druid. Her character would not have a clue concerning what's on the other side.
If she wants to continue, however, that Abyssal Ghoul or (if they somehow get past him-you just never know with good players LOL) any of the other critters waiting within should do the trick.
Now, you don't want a TPK, so it's a tough call. Perhaps another encounter in between? Or, Allustan or someone sends them a message concerning a race against another band, such as the Seekers or Kullen's boyz to beat 'em to the punch?
The point is, they apparently need some urgency to stick with the (albeit) linear plot line. We're just finishing the Cairn & it's a bit of a linear dungeon crawl without some work, though well rewarding to get through it.
BTW, we hosed Kullen's boyz & Filge (in separate encounters). Both were highly rewarding:) Color spray is a greatly unappreciated spell against the right foes...
I would just be honest with the player: take her aside and say, "look, the area beyond the cave-in is the location of another adventure - but you're not ready for it yet, so just pretend the cae-in is impassible for now."
This is a little off-topic - but a similar issue that may come up later is in 3FoE. There are 3 passages leading out of the Dark Cathedral (one for each cult of the Ebon Triad). Ideally, the PCs need to explore these in a particular order, but there's really nothing to stop them from randomly picking the "wrong" one first. Be prepared to alter the map on-the-fly as necessary. For example, if you want them to fight the cult of Hextor first, then place that area behind the first door they open - regardless of which door they choose!
In general, any player that 1) looked at my maps, 2) used that information to benefit their character, and 3) threw stuff at me based on that information, would be 4) out on their ass never to return.
This is a little off-topic - but a similar issue that may come up later is in 3FoE. There are 3 passages leading out of the Dark Cathedral (one for each cult of the Ebon Triad). Ideally, the PCs need to explore these in a particular order, but there's really nothing to stop them from randomly picking the "wrong" one first. Be prepared to alter the map on-the-fly as necessary. For example, if you want them to fight the cult of Hextor first, then place that area behind the first door they open - regardless of which door they choose!
My group went through the Vecna area, the Hextor area and finally the Erythnul area, and I found that there wasn't really any problem (past keeping track of where which item came from, and having to flip around the adventure). No temple seems to be that much more difficult than the others, so I don't think order is really critical.