|
2nd edition Paladin Handbook indicated paladins were immune to green slime and several other things due to their disease immunity....3.5 says this includes Mummy Rot and Lycanthropy...green worms are killed by remove disease, so is a 3rd level paladin immune to worm infestation due to their Divine Health ability?
I say "no" because the worm is an actual creature who causes damage by gnawing its way up into and through your brain. Not really a disease.
I say "no" because the worm is an actual creature who causes damage by gnawing its way up into and through your brain. Not really a disease.
I second that -- paladins are out of luck.
Jack
I never liked those self-righteous do-gooders anyway. Let's feed them all to Kyuss' worms :)
is a 3rd level paladin immune to worm infestation due to their Divine Health ability?
I would say yes, as the worm is treated as a disease by the remove disease spell. Effectively, the paladin's divine protection destroys it as soon as it enters his body (still dealing the 1 point of damage, but then destroyed).
Essentially, paladins are almost built to destroy the Spawn of Kyuss. With their immunity to fear and disease, and the ability to use remove disease as a spell-like ability (an AoW paladin would do very well to pick up a feat to increase his ability in this regard), as well as turning (at higher levels, anyway), this is what they live for.
Any official word on this (looking at you guys, Paizo)?
Ooooo this is a good question. This is from the SRD
Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
The worm crawling through the body is not a disease so I would say that still happens (and should scare the crap outta them)... but when the worm gets to the brain what happens? Does the worm take over the body? or does it spread it's disease to the brain?
It eats their brain.
|
|
I prefer the middle ground:
Kyuss' worms need to make a Fortitude save (based on the Spawn/original host) vs. a DC 10/paladin's level to be able to overcome the Divine Health. The more advanced the worm, the more bonuses I give on the Fortitude save (say +2 for slow worms).
It's good to give the paladin some bravado in his attacks so you can later crush it as the you describe the worm burrowing through the paladin's musculature, tingling the spinal cord and the increasing ringing sound in the ears as the brain is replaced with a writhing mass of Kyuss-goodness as you explain to the player their paladin's remove disease isn't working either... *cue evil laughter*
It eats their brain.
Oh... nevermind then. They're screwed.
(I don't have the magazine on hand to reference)
I thought it was because of some infestation that they became Kyuss spawn. My players haven't made it that far yet... this is good to know.
It's good to give the paladin some bravado in his attacks so you can later crush it as the you describe the worm burrowing through the paladin's musculature, tingling the spinal cord and the increasing ringing sound in the ears as the brain is replaced with a writhing mass of Kyuss-goodness as you explain to the player their paladin's remove disease isn't working either... *cue evil laughter*
In regards to remove disease not working...
I've had this sort of thing happen to me so many times that I can tell you from experience: Having your character's abilities denied just because you wanted your [u]hero[/u] to be a certain class is very, very frustrating. Especially if the campaign is set around the creature/thing that is denying your character's abilities. Especially if no one else in the party is as affected as you are.
If you're going to do this to your player, please inform him ahead of time so that he can make the decision as to whether he wants to play a character who will be crippled in comparison to the rest of the party beforehand.
|
|
In regards to remove disease not working...
Let me clarify as the brain is thinking faster than the fingers can type. If a Kyuss worm is able to overcome the Divine Health of the paladin, I would also suggest that the worm is allowed a saving throw versus the paladin's remove disease with a bonus equal to how much the worm was able to overcome the Divine Health in the first place. Hopefully the cleric on hand has a remove disease of their own prepared and this is all moot.
As for crippled in comparison to the rest of the party, most of my players would suggest that's the case by just playing a paladin to begin with. ::sardonic grin::
As for clarifying the scope of a paladin's Divine Health application, it's good to cover all the bases up front. For example, I totally forgot about the 2E resistance to green slime and the like. Does that still apply? ::rubs chin::
Although the worms are destroyed when in a victim's body by casting Remove Disease and Remove Curse, they are neither a disease nor a curse. Per Dungeon 126, they are "a Fine vermin," per Dragon 336 "they are a strange symbiotic form of vermin that subsists upon the decaying flesh of the spawn." Also, per Dragon 336, "Once the worm reaches the brain, ... it begins to consume..." I propose Remove Disease and Curse are applicable per gaming rules because there is no "Remove Vermin" spell. A paladin would not be immune to the worms.
I say "no" because the worm is an actual creature who causes damage by gnawing its way up into and through your brain. Not really a disease.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't (most) diseases really just living organisms (i.e., creatures)?
I'd say the worms are a disease for purposes of remove disease, immunity to disease, etc.
Then a clarifier: May an invasive organism, rather than just a microrganism, be called a disease and not just a parasite? If someone has parasitic worms vining up their gastrointestinal ductwork do they have a disease?
The magical effect the worms provide post mortem doesn't make their initial method of killing the victim seem magic based so I don't know why their attack would be considered a magical disease, if a disease at all. These worms aren't just a momentary swarming phantasm; they are real worms that burrow their way to a noodle chomp.
I say just pour salt in your ears when you feel them working their way up. That'll stop em. ;) Paladins can pour salt with the best of them.
Lemme go read up on these things... I'm talking outta my duct. Quack!
Yes, diseases are living organisms. So, using that logic, paladins are immune to tigers, as well.
The worms must also be a curse, as Remove Curse works. Also, they are a poison - Neutralize Poison effects them.
The worms' attack is not treated as a disease, which involves an immediate Fort save, followed by daily saves. There is no mention that the character's "immune system fought off the infection" (DMG).
I can find no instance where the worms are described as acting like a disease, except for the fact that the spell Remove Disease kills them. They are, however,clearly described as vermin, which actually has its own MM subtype.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
|
Yes, diseases are living organisms. So, using that logic, paladins are immune to tigers, as well.
The worms must also be a curse, as Remove Curse works. Also, they are a poison - Neutralize Poison effects them.
But your average tiger doesn't infest it's host. It simply rends it limb from limb and feasts.
Remove Disease means that it for the purposes of the rules a worm infestation is a disease thereby making paladins immune. Unless Remove disease handles tigers in a way I missed.
I would go so far as to say that if you are somehow immune to the either one of the other two effects I would allow that immunity to protect you as well.
|
Hmm.. so half-fiends and half-celestials would both be immune then, but for different reasons. It's not unreasonable that paladins would be safe... between that and the Immunity to fear, they're the only thing that's truly immune to the Spawn of Kyuss. Boccob knows (everything ;)) that there simply aren't enough paladins around these days ;)
|
|
They are, however,clearly described as vermin, which actually has its own MM subtype.
yes but very unusual vermin, in that they die after 6 seconds exposed to air..I don't know any worm that does that in real life...there's definitly unnaturalness about them, so much so that curing magic (or DIVINE health)would stop them...a paladin's body effectivly has remove disease active internaly at all times, else they WOULD get diseases...bear in mind that Mummy Rot and Lycanthropy are also unnatural...
though 2nd edition, heres the Paladin's Handbook outtake:
Immunity to Disease
A paladin has complete immunity to all forms of organic disease. This immunity includes diseases from rat, otyugh, and neo-otyugh bites, as well as nonlethal but disabling maladies like measles and earaches. A paladin never catches a cold or suffers from tooth decay, and is unaffected by parasitic monsters such as green slime, violet fungi, gas spores, phycomids, and rot grubs. His wounds never become infected.
The process occurs instantly, automatically, and painlessly; the paladin isn't even aware of exposure to a disease. A paladin's disease resistance is divinely given and can't be transferred to another character. A magical blood transfusion, for instance, would not grant disease immunity to the recipient. Nor are a paladin's progeny automatically immune to diseases, unless they
become paladins themselves.
A paladin experiences the normal consequences of the following:
Physical trauma. All wounds inflict normal damage. A paladin is as susceptible to concussions, broken limbs, and exhaustion as any other character, and also suffers the normal effects of extreme temperature, such as sunburn, heatstroke, and frostbite.
Poison. A paladin is vulnerable to nearly all types of ingested, injected, and inhaled toxins. These include irritants (acids, mercury), organic toxins (poison mushrooms, snake venom, crystal ooze), nerve poisons (belladonna, arsenic), and poisonous gases (vapors that stop the heart or inhibit breathing).
The paladin can become intoxicated by drinking too much alcohol, and may experience allergic reactions to pollen, dust, or
other substances, but does not suffer from virus-based or bacteria based toxins, such as the saliva of a rabid dog or bat.
Curses and magical diseases. Lycanthropy, mummy rot, and similar afflictions are curses and not diseases. A paladin suffers the normal effects.
Note that paladins are immune to the cause disease spell. The DM may decide that very powerful diseases, like mummy rot, may override the paladin's natural immunity, but could be cured by the paladin's cure disease ability.
Effects of aging. A paladin ages at the normal human rate. Age brings the ability penalties given on Table 12, Chapter 1 of the PH, and also the normal debilitation associated with aging. For instance, even though the paladin's teeth resist bacterial decay, they may still fall out as a result of enamel erosion. A paladin whose body wears out dies, at the same age as a normal human.
Psychological disorders . A paladin is as prone as anyone else to hallucinations, nightmares, memory loss, insanity, and similar mental and emotional disorders, providing the disorder isn't a consequence of a disease (such as a fever-induced delirium).
Creative Director
|
Paladins aren't immune to Kyuss worms. Disease in D&D is a specific game mechanic; you suffer ability damage once per day after an incubation period until the disease is removed or you make your 2 Fortitude saves in a row to recover. Kyuss worms, while they are destroyed by remove disease function in a completely different manner than an actual disease.
Now if you want to say paladins are immune to Kyuss worms in your campaign, that's cool. But keep in mind that once you start to blur things like this, there will be ramifications. If you make a paladin immune to Kyuss worms, then why aren't they also immune to green slime, brown and yellow mold, chaos beast bites, and slaadi egg implantation?
Hm . . . off topic, but that means . . . you may be able to spot a Paladin by his nice teeth!
Looks like we need a ruling from sage advice on this one!
I would tend to rule that the parasite is, as the MMII states, a fine vermin and not a disease, and that remove disease is merely one of several spells that happen to have special effects on that creature (like disintegrate slowing a clay golem).
MMII makes it clear that if you don't panic, and your whole party isn't infested at once, you have a reasonable chance of surviving a Kyuss worm delivered by a Spawn of Kyuss. Besides killing it outright with remove disease or remove curse, it can be stopped in its tracks for 10d6 minutes by dispel evil or neutralize poison. In that time, one should be able to make the DC 20 heal check to remove the worm and kill it. Even if you don't have any of those spells handy and no one has ranks in Heal, the worm doesn't start burrowing until the round after the slam attack, touch attack, or ranged touch attack that delivered it.
Since the PCs have by this point in the adventure at least seen the "worm in a jar" at Filge's place, and probably have heard a little about Kyuss, they probably know the worms are dangerous. (MMII says the worms crawling in and out of the Spawn of Kyuss's skull become apparent when you're within 20 feet). Presumably, they'll have a good chance to spot the delivery of a worm and try to scrape the thing off their skin before it can burrow in.
So, as long as they don't panic, a worm delivery really just means losing an action on their next turn (probably a move action--I'd rule it's similar to picking up an object because you have to look down to see where the worm is), possibly having to drop a weapon and/or take an attack of opportunity. If you can stay out of melee range, you're OK, if not, you might have to deal with multiple Kyuss worms per round, but even so, you can use two move actions to pluck worms, taking 2 slam attacks per round, in which case you might be in trouble if your comrades can't dispose of the nasty thing for you.
Now if you want to say paladins are immune to Kyuss worms in your campaign, that's cool. But keep in mind that once you start to blur things like this, there will be ramifications. If you make a paladin immune to Kyuss worms, then why aren't they also immune to green slime, brown and yellow mold, chaos beast bites, and slaadi egg implantation?
My thoughts exactly. Paladin's Divine Health doesn't help against the Worms, since its a parasitic, discrete organism that's EATING YOUR BRAIN!
|
|
If you make a paladin immune to Kyuss worms, then why aren't they also immune to green slime, brown and yellow mold, chaos beast bites, and slaadi egg implantation?
Uh..they were in second edition (immune to green slime and yellow mold)....I don't see why that would be diffrent in 3.5...it IS a divine ability, after all, just as the Kyuss worms are derived from an evil deity....I mean, to be immune to diseases, a paladin would have to ahve SOMETHING thats constantly 'removing' disease...and the worms are killed by 'remove disease'...
Now if you want to say paladins are immune to Kyuss worms in your campaign, that's cool. But keep in mind that once you start to blur things like this, there will be ramifications. If you make a paladin immune to Kyuss worms, then why aren't they also immune to green slime, brown and yellow mold, chaos beast bites, and slaadi egg implantation?My thoughts exactly. Paladin's Divine Health doesn't help against the Worms, since its a parasitic, discrete organism that's EATING YOUR BRAIN!
Thirded!
Rot grubs--I had the image (from 1E MM I had in high school)when I was trying to think out this problem by analogy, and couldn't remember the name. Have these nasty things reappeared anywhere in 3/3.5E? I think I'd like to try throwing some at my party.
Hm . . . off topic, but that means . . . you may be able to spot a Paladin by his nice teeth!
Yeah, but the immunity to disease wasn't an ability until much later in life, so they still had plenty of time to look like Austin Powers.
Now if you want to say paladins are immune to Kyuss worms in your campaign, that's cool. But keep in mind that once you start to blur things like this, there will be ramifications. If you make a paladin immune to Kyuss worms, then why aren't they also immune to green slime, brown and yellow mold, chaos beast bites, and slaadi egg implantation?
Of the examples you mention, only green slime and slaadi egg implantation are affected by remove disease. Yellow mold is poison (and so a half-fiend would be immune), brown mold is only affected by temperature, and chaos beast slam attacks are specifically not a disease or curse.
I agree, Kyuss worms work differently from normal diseases. But so does lycanthropy. Personally, I would be fine with extending Divine Health to cover anything that remove disease would cover. It's one of the reasons to choose the class, and endure all the mocking from players who don't understand that lawful good doesn't mean lawful stupid. While they're writhing on the floor, covered in green slime and kyuss worms and slaadi eggs, the paladin can get a good chuckle in (and then get to work saving the day, of course).
If this subject comes up in my campaign (when I finally do get around to playing the AoW), I’ll have the worm be able to burrow up to the paladin’s brain and eat away. If the player doesn’t get the point that he’s in trouble when his PC is having trouble putting 2 and 2 together, then he deserves what he gets. I’ll have the divine health kick in when there’s no more brain to eat. It will stop the magical transformation into an undead, BUT the paladin will still die. Now the only question is do I want the worm to survive in the dead mans skull to be present when he’s resurrected?
I agree with Achilles and will adjudicate that the Kyuss worms do not affect the paladin IMC. I agree with the entire "active remove disease" from a divine source encompassing the paladin's innerds and ...outerds at all times premise. Yes, this does mean that the paladin is also immune to green slime and other infections that would automatically be destroyed by a remove disease spell.
Of course... I should also admit that we play 2nd edition with only a handful of 3.x modifications so it's easier to justify this decision.
I think paladins, truly heroic and noble ones, are extremely hard to play and are already pretty rare. A player ought to get certain benefits from choosing this difficult class - this being one of them. Sure paladins have cool abilities but they also have harsh drawbacks and restrictions (at least IMC they do) so I like to give them the full affect of every benefit they deserve.
I agree with Achilles and will adjudicate that the Kyuss worms do not affect the paladin IMC...
That's a house rule for SirMarcus' campaign (which is OK).
But isn't the question "do Kyuss worms affect paladins in D&D 3.5?" The answer to that is "yes." Kyuss worms are not a disease, thus the paladin's class ability offers no protection.
Regards,
Jack
But isn't the question "do Kyuss worms affect paladins in D&D 3.5?" The answer to that is "yes."
No, the answer to that is "some people say yes, some people say no."
But isn't the question "do Kyuss worms affect paladins in D&D 3.5?" The answer to that is "yes."
No, the answer to that is "some people say yes, some people say no."
I thought James Jacobs said it pretty succinctly -- the class ability grants immunity to disease (only); the worms aren't a disease. The only contradicting arguments invoke 2/e rules.
Not trying to be argumentative :)
Regards,
Jack
I thought James Jacobs said it pretty succinctly -- the class ability grants immunity to disease (only); the worms aren't a disease.
Yes, he did. But he is no more the "final word" on such things than I am.
The only contradicting arguments invoke 2/e rules.
That's incorrect. My argument is based on the fact that the worms are affected by remove disease. The 2e rules are perhaps interesting, but ultimately irrelevant.
Not trying to be argumentative :)
Me, neither. :)
The only contradicting arguments invoke 2/e rules.
That's incorrect. My argument is based on the fact that the worms are affected by remove disease...
My mistake :)
I certainly see your logic, but I'm not convinced that being affected by remove disease means they should be treated like a disease in other ways.
Though I am starting to agree that the rules don't clearly answer the question.
Regards,
Jack
PS I still think, in the interest of wiping out any and all paladins, that we should go ahead and let Kyuss worms affect them.
PS I still think, in the interest of wiping out any and all paladins, that we should go ahead and let Kyuss worms affect them.
Agreed... good thing I don't have those pesky Paladins in my group.
yes but very unusual vermin, in that they die after 6 seconds exposed to air..I don't know any worm that does that in real life...
Roundworms, the kind for which you get your dog or cat "de-wormed," quickly die in air (not surprising, as they're technically an "aquatic" creature).
I thought James Jacobs said it pretty succinctly -- the class ability grants immunity to disease (only); the worms aren't a disease.
Except that over half his examples were obviously not applicable (sorry, James). Lycanthropy does not work like other diseases, yet Paladins are immune due to Divine Health. Lycanthropy can also be cured with remove disease.
Are contagion, lycanthropy and mummy rot the only things Divine Health covers other than normal diseases? That's awfully specific. Just something to think about.
|
|
Let me guess, Thanis you are playing a paladin in an Age of Worms campaign? I can understand your desire to have paladins immune to Kyuss' worms. I guess the be-all-end-all statement needs to come from Erik Mona as he was the catalyst of the whole Adventure Path. I'll use my middle-road approach if it becomes an issue which is doubtful with a soulknife/cleric/wizard/rogue party make-up.
Let me guess, Thanis you are playing a paladin in an Age of Worms campaign? I can understand your desire to have paladins immune to Kyuss' worms. I guess the be-all-end-all statement needs to come from Erik Mona as he was the catalyst of the whole Adventure Path.
Actually, I'm playing a chaotic neutral warforged artificer/warlock named Lune, who wouldn't care if people were falling over from worms anyway (as long as the birds are okay). I am merely expressing my interpretation of the kyuss worm effect on paladins. Also, I don't think that Paladin should be a base class, but rather a prestige class open to any alignment (with different abilities for each alignment, of course).
I have played a number of Paladins in the past. (my 3rd character was a paladin) I've never had one encounter a Spawn of Kyuss. I just think that there are people who are biased against paladins - unreasonably. The lawful good alignment turns people off of the class; no one wants to play (or deal with) a stick-in-the-mud. But a paladin doesn't have to conform to that stereotype. See the Paladin class acts in Dragon #s 323, 327, 329, 330, 334, 336 and you might see what I mean.
As for Erik Mona, I will accept his word as official if his reasoning is strong and evidence is valid. Not that it will likely change my point of view on the subject.
Lycanthropy does not work like other diseases, yet Paladins are immune due to Divine Health.[/i].
Edit: I had to edit my post because I was using the SRD, and the SRD doesn't specifically mention that a paladin is immune to lycanthropy, but the PH does. Weird.
Anyway, it's actually debatable whether paladins _should be_ immune to lycanthropy. There's plenty of evidence that lycanthropy is a curse, _not_ a disease, and paladins shouldn't be immune to curses.
|
|
True, but then a monk's Purity of Body reads: "She gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy) {PHB 41} (Bolding is my own).
Actually, the paladin's Divine Health reads the same way, but notes that he/she is also immune to supernatural or magical diseases, again "such as mummy rot or lycanthropy". {PHB 44}
I agree, paladin's get the short stick sometimes, though I honestly am more likely to follow what the AP's creator's (i.e. James et al) had intended for the campaign, but at least give them protection from becoming a were-toad :)
It's actually debatable whether paladins are immune to lycanthropy...
...While you can cure lycanthropy with remove disease (if your level is high enough), you can also use remove curse or break enchantment, neither of which affects diseases.
Sorry, wrong.
At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).
Also, mummy rot doesn't work like a normal disease either... it can only be affected by remove curse iirc.
EDIT: Ah, caught yourself. But regardless of whether they should or should not be immune, they are according to the 3.5 PH, which is the standard I go by.
|
|
Actually, I'm playing a chaotic neutral warforged artificer/warlock named Lune, who wouldn't care if people were falling over from worms anyway (as long as the birds are okay). I am merely expressing my interpretation of the kyuss worm effect on paladins. Also, I don't think that Paladin should be a base class, but rather a prestige class open to any alignment (with different abilities for each alignment, of course).
Ah! That's cool. You're championing the paladin cause like some folks champion their piece of the budget here at the office, thus my failed "sense motive". ::smirk::
I empathize with your sentiments about paladins as a prestige class; assassins became one, why not paladins? Most likely they survived as a core class because they're fairly iconic. Dragon 106 had a fine treatment of holy knights of various alignments (Garath, Myrikhans, Paramanders, Lyons, Illriggers, Fantra, etc.) which I'll get around to converting one of these days unless the folks at Paizo beat me to it in a subsequent Dragon Compendium.
|
|
Edit: I had to edit my post because I was using the SRD, and the SRD doesn't specifically mention that a paladin is immune to lycanthropy, but the PH does. Weird.
That is strange... doesn't seem to be a licensing issue (like beholders, mind flayers, etc.)... *shrug* I've seen SRD and PHB rules confusions before, so it's understandable.
|
Creative Director
|
My list of alternate disease-like things that paladins "could" be immune to is intended to include things that aren't diseases, since Kyuss worm infestations, despite the fact that remove disease works on them, are not diseases, any more than they are curses or poisons (even though remove curse and neutralize poison both cure or slow the infestation).
And I'm not just saying this because I'm biased against paladins. I might be biased agaisnt wizards, but paladins? They're awesome! Not as awesome as druids or bards, but they're still pretty neat.
So the paladin's divine health would not protect him from kyuss worms, but his remove disease ability would kill the infestation. That is my interpretation, anyway.
I would rule that paladins are immune, on the basis that the worm is killed by Cure Disease. I was looking over the stats for SoK awhile back, & I think I decided that they would be affected by Kyuss's Gift, but not by the create spawn ability. Don't remember why--don't have the stuff in front of me right now.
So the paladin's divine health would not protect him from kyuss worms, but his remove disease ability would kill the infestation. That is my interpretation, anyway.
Sounds right to me and I just happen to be a worm of Kyuss.
The pay sucks.
ive been a dm since the early 80s,and having all those years xp i would say the worms do 1 point of damage as it burrows in then dies from the paladins divine health.
crippling the character class by making exceptions is a good way tp lose your players
|
|
My list of alternate disease-like things that paladins "could" be immune to is intended to include things that aren't diseases, since Kyuss worm infestations, despite the fact that remove disease works on them, are not diseases, any more than they are curses or poisons (even though remove curse and neutralize poison both cure or slow the infestation).
Well, Kyuss Sonsa re basically 1st ed. zombies wich throw green rot grubs...at least thats probably the idea behind them, as rot grubs did the same thing as kyuss worms...I don't see why the 2nd ed. divine health should be heavily modifed for 3rd....the real question is, is divine health effectivly the same a remove disease....they affect the same things the same way, why not the worms? For taht matter, why WOULD Kyuss worms be affected by remove disease, if they are tiny creatures and not a true disease?