205 posts and still going.
Yep, that article was a waste of print<----sarcasm :)
Thought I'd start a new one since the current is taking forever to load.
The only problem I have with the article this month is mentioning Steve Jackson and Gary Gygax in the same breath. I friggin hate GURPS. Other than that the article is an entertaining read IMO.
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Alright, I've followed this tread and it sure seems that the love Will-Hate Will groups are pretty evenly matched here.So, I'll throw my opinion int the ring.
I fall into the get rid of Will Save category. While I do find myself drawn to read the column every month, its more of that I-want-to-watch-a-train-wreck desire rather than gleaning anything from the column. After reading that column, I always feel pretty good. My life could be signficantly worse. I could be Will Wheaton.
I suggest Paizo dump Will Wheaton, dummp the guy who draws his picture on that column, and get rid of Downer while their at it.
Stockdale
Agreed on all counts.
Mystery Man- Just because an article gets alot of posts pertaining to it on these boards does not mean its worth the paper its printed on. Going through the thread you'll see that for every person supportiong Wil there was another well articulated argument about how it was turning a completely different set of readers off from the magazine.
definitely not turning me on...
diaglo "needs a more relevant column to get him excited" Temporado
Mystery Man- Just because an article gets alot of posts pertaining to it on these boards does not mean its worth the paper its printed on. Going through the thread you'll see that for every person supportiong Wil there was another well articulated argument about how it was turning a completely different set of readers off...
Sean -
While I agree that the posting for and against will does not itself prove that the article is worthwhile, the mere fact that there are two fairly evenly matched sides to the issue also doesn't prove that it should be discontinued.
Mystery Man- Just because an article gets alot of posts pertaining to it on these boards does not mean its worth the paper its printed on. Going through the thread you'll see that for every person supportiong Wil there was another well articulated argument about how it was turning a completely different set of readers off...
If Dungeon discontinued a fun column like "Wil Save" because they were afraid some people don't like it, it would turn me off. So I guess there's two sides to everything.
"While I agree that the posting for and against will does not itself prove that the article is worthwhile, the mere fact that there are two fairly evenly matched sides to the issue also doesn't prove that it should be discontinued."
Doesn't it? It seems to me like a magazine should focus on providing features that a clear majority of its readers enjoy. You can't please all of the people all of the time, but you should at least shoot for pleasing most of them most of them time.
It seems to me like a magazine should focus on providing features that a clear majority of its readers enjoy.
As it turns out, that describes Wil Save pretty well. Most people like it.
Commence flames and accusations... : )
"As it turns out, that describes Wil Save pretty well. Most people like it.
Commence flames and accusations... : )"
Why flame when I can just ask you for some proof?
"As it turns out, that describes Wil Save pretty well. Most people like it.
Commence flames and accusations... : )"
Why flame when I can just ask you for some proof?
He doesn't have to proof diddly squat.
Lest we forget the silent majority who either doesn't care, or who likes the article and therefore has no reason to whine. The burden of proof is on the one who does the whining.
I have disliked this article since its inception. As Samantha so eloquently said in another post, the article's purpose is misused by Wil in an attempt to keep his life on the front burner for all to see...
*theme music plays*
It's the Wil Wheaton Show! With this week's guest star, D&D! Also starring, a lame tacked-on sub-plot somehow envolving Star Trek! Don't worry, folks! Wil will make it work!
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I enjoy the column. I never knew who Wil Wheaton was, but thats probably because i never really watched star trek all that much. but as a longtime gamer and a father of three gamers- in-training, I find his column an amusing end piece for the magazine. much has been said about his writing skills and subject choices. I just wonder is it really that bad if he doesnt write about gaming in every issue? when most magazines give a writer a column they usually give them a bit of leeway in subject matter as long as the writer doesnt stray too far off from the subject matter too often. my thoughts are to give the guy a chance. those who think he should be dumped just because they feel he isnt worthy, seem to just be bitter individuals who dont have a column of their own in a major gaming publication. if you really think he's so bad then put finger to keyboard and start your own article to submit to Dungeon and show them that you can do better.
It's a quiet morning here in Seattle and, well, I don't really have what one could term a "life" anyway, so I collected the proof. Yes, I went through all 200+ posts on the first thread and tallied For/Against/Don't Care. It was hard, and I expect an error of about 5 votes in any given category, either high or low (because so many people posted more than once, or changed their minds halfway through.) People who said stuff like, "Well, at least it isn't Downer," got put in Don't Care.
FOR 'Wil Save': 49
AGAINST 'Wil Save': 19
DON'T CARE: 11
So if the message boards are even slightly representative of the feedback Paizo gets overall, Robert Head is right. More people like Wil Save than don't. PS I did not include the votes of the staff in this tally, leaving it solely up to the readership.
Edit: Added The Evil DM's 'vote'.
FOR 'Wil Save': 49
AGAINST 'Wil Save': 19
DON'T CARE: 11
Thanks, Medesha. You rock.
As Medesha has demonstrated, the evidence, for what it's worth, is on the boards here.
Plus, all the... you know... super secret information we have here at Paizo. : )
Cheers!
Rob
Plus, all the... you know... super secret information we have here at Paizo. : )
I assume you use a Cone of Silence when talking about that stuff, right? :)
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I love movies, but I'd make a terrible movie critic. It's often just too dang hard to distance myself from what I myself like to perceive what others might enjoy. A tendency to look for the good in things rather than nitpick over "the bad" would also be against me.
I enjoyed Star Trek TNG, but didn't watch it regularly enough to form a really strong opinion on Wesley Crusher. If nothing else, I have that lack of bias going for me here.
I enjoy 'Wil Save'. For me, it's an understated celebration of geek-dom in the name of having fun, and as a person of about Wil's age, I appreciate the ability to relate to a lot of what he writes.
Yep, every paragraph aside from this one began with "I". That's the only perspective from which I can weigh in, after all, like everyone who has previously posted on this topic. If we are going for a tally, fine. If we want to debate this, I'm not sure it can be done in such a way where anything will really come of it. A dozen people making posts bemoaning the column is not going to get things changed, I believe. Write a well-crafted letter and send it by mail to the editor if you're really intent on Wil's column being snipped.
Count me part of the "For 'Wil Save'" group.
Threadnapper! Threadnapper! ;-)
Can I at least get a favarable count on the I hate the art for the Wil Save page?
Theatrical characters played by Wil Wheaton in the past have no relevance on Wil Save, except that he feels a need to periodicly mention them.
Wil Save is DUNGEON Magazine's Jar-jar Binks.
ASEO out
I love movies, but I'd make a terrible movie critic. It's often just too dang hard to distance myself from what I myself like to perceive what others might enjoy. A tendency to look for the good in things rather than nitpick over "the bad" would also be against me.
Actually, I don't listen to reviews unless they find something positive about a movie. In virtually every movie (Battlefield Earth excepted) there's something redeeming that a good review should point out, so whenever I read a review that has nothing good to say, I know the critic is full of poop and just being contrary to make himself feel better about the fact that he's reviewing movies, not making them. ;-)
Back on topic (sort of), I totally agree with ASEO. The art for Wil Save just doesn't cut it. My vote: Get Ramon Perez to do the art for a little bit. I always enjoy his work whenever I see it. :-) Alternatively, have the cover artist do an extra little illustration for Wil Save, so they cap both the front and back of the magazine.
Better art will, in no way, save an otherwise crappy column. Might pretty it up for a while, but that's about it.
I second the motion on renaming Wil Save "Jar Jar Lives!"
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Heh, I'm forced to agree with the "minority" here. But right now I'm not going to argue about the feature itself but rather I have a question. Exactly what is the name of this innovative business practice Paizo has been using lately where its Editors and other big guys subtly insult their customers. Honesty, there is no reason for Paizo employees to get involved in this argument. Read our arguments and make your decisions. But everytime you chime in with support for one side, your hurting your cred with the other. Hating "Wil Save" might not make people stop buying the magazine, but getting message board pwned by a Paizo employee certainly will. Might might happen if someone is the owner of an independent comic and gaming store eh? ;) But do tell, I want to show my bussiness degree friends this new idea but I need to know the theory behind it first.
Ok, lets (try to) ignore the argument of whether Wil Save is good/bad/evil etc. My problem is not with Wil or his article, I feel that it is not right for Dungeon Mag. What is Dungeon about? My answer (yours may vary) is DM related resources for D&D adventures. Is Wil save a DM related resource? My answer: No. While he may speak to gamers it isn’t from the point of view of a DM nor does it provide any kind of resource to run games. Wil Save may be brilliant, but why is it in Dungeon? If it was in Dragon, I would have no problem at all with it.
Personally (while I have been a gamer for 20+ years and have every issue of Dungeon) my opinion is that the nostalgia of Wil’s articles actually alienates new gamers who would rather be doing (or finding tools to play the game) rather than reminiscing about the history of gaming and gamers growing older. As I’m guessing Paizo would like to increase their market, I wonder if Wil Save is a good idea for them.
Robert Head, I'd like to send you an email if I might. Would you mind emailing me at medesha@yahoo.com if that's cool? Sorry to spam up the thread but I figured you'd be likely to read it. Thanks!
And for all the people who disliked 'Wil Save' but didn't kick up a fuss about the numbers (ASEO, I'm looking at you. ;-) ), my hat is off to you. It's harder than one might think to resist the urge to be petty and go for grace instead, especially on an anonymous medium like the internet. I admire your class.
So why does no other features generate hundreds of similarly-heated posts? I still think the feature is clearly too problematic and polerizing to warrent a place in the magazine.
So. No need for further discussion. No need for further posts on the topic. Wil Save is a hit with readers. Eh, Rob?
We love the discussion. That's why we made the messageboards.
8)
rob
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First of all, since I am German I hope you understand my english; it may be a bit rusty sometimes :)
...my opinion is that the nostalgia of Wil’s articles actually alienates new gamers...
Sorry, but it doesn´t. I´m not really a new gamer, but the fact that I had to stop playing for some years and Dungeon 119 being the first issue I´ve bought for more than ten years allows me to introduce myself as such.
I´haven´t read all the articles within 119 yet but I actually read the Wil save column and I found it most enlightening. And this column will absolutely not "alienate" me from bying the next issues. I guess that interested new gamers aren´t either cause interest in a role-play game means interest for its history as well.
Having stated this, I admit that I really don´t care for one page of "fluff" in a magazine with 90+ pages full of adventures and helpful game-related stuff. It is nice to read and even if it´s a bit off-topic it does not matter for I am no all-day-long gamer myself.
I feel rather amused about the fact that this one-page-column has created two threads full of pro and contra. I know that Wesley Crusher has no good reputation in Germany but I didn´t know that it´s the same in the U.S. And I didn´t know that this role disqualifies Wil Wheaton as a writer (and in my opinion he is a good one).
Some people argue that the column should be stopped since it is not game-related. I understand the point even if I don´t share it. But since no game-related stuff seems to have been omitted in favor of the column I don´t think this point is crucial.
Other people have only this argument against this column : they don´t like the writer (seems to me that there is more than mere dislike). I don´t care why this is the case, but I don´t care for these opinions either. Those people even ignore the fact that most people seem to like Wils Save (thx for counting, Medesha :) but this has been stated in the former thread as well) and they don´t get tired to repeat their "arguments" over and over again. I call this behaviour ignorant and intolerant, cause it serves no purpose other than to silence other people.But each forum has its fair share of those users so I will stop whining ^.^ .
I remember Kim Mohan (former editor of the Dragon magazine) stating more than one time that it is impossible to make all readers happy. Actually he said they wouldn´t even try to do so (knowing that it is impossible indeed).
I am glad to see that this policy holds until today. The so-called "fluff" has not damaged the reputation of the "Dragon", so why should one page damage the Dungeon´s? In my opinion, "Wil's save" proves that gamers are humans and this alone makes the column valuable.
Exactly what is the name of this innovative business practice Paizo has been using lately where its Editors and other big guys subtly insult their customers. Honesty, there is no reason for Paizo employees to get involved in this argument. Read our arguments and make your decisions. But everytime you chime in with support for one side, your hurting your cred with the other. Hating "Wil Save" might not make people stop buying the magazine, but getting message board pwned by a Paizo employee certainly will.
No offense intended. I simply pointed out that more people like it than not. Folks asked for evidence. Medesha provided some. I appreciated not having to do it.
Obviously, nobody on either side of this discussion is "right" (including me), so no judgement either way.
As far as my being a passive-aggressive jerk... I can't say that that's my self-image, but it's probably true. : ]
Kind regards,
Rob "just the Web guy and definitely not a big shot in the gaming industry" Head
Wil Save ain't floating my boat.
it is a waste of space.
Medesha,
move me from the "don't care category" to the "get rid of this POS" group.
Wil Save should be removed. It is a waste of space that could probably be better used, if only on stat blocks.
Hell, while I'm at it, Downer should be moved. No, not RE-moved, just moved. Not "Fire this guy", but rather, "Find a better outlet for what is an obviously talented artist, because two pages in Dungeon each month isn't cutting it." Espicaly considering what happened to Floyd, i'd like to see Downer in an environment where it could thrive. Not sure what that is, but I just thought i'd bring that up, since the two subjects seem to be hopelessely entangled...
Put me in the keep it camp, though i will continue to by dungeon regardless if its there or not. I have enjoyed a majority of the Will saves. There have been a few that I havent enjoyed but I realize that other people may have. Same with critical threats and maps of mystery. well ok, i have never used a critical threat feature but i have used several maps of mystery. I like them but i understand that not everyone gets use out of them.
oh and WormysQueue are you sure your German????
Wil Save ain't floating my boat.
it is a waste of space.
Medesha,
move me from the "don't care category" to the "get rid of this POS" group.
Man, I'm going have to update this puppy too? That's what I get for being helpful. ;-) I'll do it for you, diaglo, cuz I like you, but I don't indend on keeping my little stat-post up to date. I'm sure the Paizo guys are handling that at the office. :-)
Edit: Actually, I found I can't edit posts after they get old. Huh. Everyone who reads my above post, change one don't care to a hate it!
Good, bad, or indifferent, Wil Save has garnered more "ink" than even the talk about publishing a separate edition of the Adventure Path, or the possibility of the Second Adventure Path. What's that phrase about "no such thing as bad press"?
For my part, I read the column like I do everything else in the magazine--even though I am not a "long time reader" (sorry, I've been away from the game for almost twenty years). Sometimes I'm interested in what he writes, sometimes not. Perhaps the column would be better received if there weren't a website devoted to people talking about individual experiences and gaming anecdotes.
Why not give a column to The Rock? . . .(smiling quietly to myself)
WormysQueue are you sure your German????Yes I am, being born in Giessen/Hessen in 1973 and living there for 32 years now. I assume this qualifies me as being german :)
just teasing...you said in one post your english might be rusty or something to that extent...when its most diffently not :)