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The Pazuzu article is nothing short of a masterpiece. If there are followup articles, this sets an incredibly high standard. I loved this article. I never found Pazuzu a particularly compelling demonlord. This article changes that by deeply exploring the character. This was not just a once over but a wonderfully indepth look at the character. I particularly like that the Aspect was included. The Miniatures Handbook was a terrible product, so bad I found a stack on sale for $5 each in my FLGS. The Aspects, along with the classes, were the only redeeming feature of this product. Every demonlord article should include an Aspect. The PcC Thrall as also exceptional. While the BoVD introduced thralls, I felt many were not worth the levels. The Thrall of Pazuzu is worth the levels; to me, that is the test of a good PrC - will you trade levels in your base class for what is in the box? I also very much appreciated that the author cited to where he was drawing material from the various official products. This is very, very useful. This article was amazing. I can’t wait to see more. The tie-in Kenku ecology and the Dungeon adventure were the icing on the cake. It’s Pazuzu-Fest! Perfect for bringing the material to maximum appeal and utility. As a rule, I do not care for ecology articles. I find them of little practical utility. When an ecology article can be paired up with another article, however, on a related topic, especially if the related article is more crunchy, I think the ecology article then makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts. The coordinate Dungeon adventure that utilizes both is just wonderful planning. This was a bravura performance. Two ears and a tail! Samantha
I’m a Greyhawker and my favorite part of the setting has always been the Great Kingdom. I was therefore anticipating the Flanaess map in Dungeon 120. Well. It is a great map. Beautiful. Very useful. Much thanks to Erik. But. Looking at the 120 map and the previous two maps, I can’t help but wonder if the Flanaess isn’t getting a little crowded. I can’t help but ponder if some of the magic and wonder haven’t now been made to evaporate to a degree. So much is quantified. So much open range is fenced. I’m not saying this has happened universally. I’m not saying the maps should not have been done or that they should have been done differently. I’m not saying the bud is off the rose. Still. Samantha
Sean Reynold’s has, IMO, done a fantastic job with the Demogorgon adventure. I love the background. I love the way he imagines Demogorgon. I love the use of apes. It reminds me of good ol Gorilla Grod (Flash) and the Red Ghost et al. (FF), always quirky villains. I’m also reminded of Thak from REH’s Conan story Rogues in House, one of my favorites. I can’t recall another ‘ape adventure’ quite like Demogorgon. Nice use of Demogorgon’s motif too. All around a class act. Having said that, the Pazuzu adventure is very nice on its own terms but suffers from comparison. I’d love to see SKR take a run at Pazuzu. IMO, Pazuzu is another difficult demonlord to get a good grip on. The included adventure was good but no Demogorgon. While I’m on the topic, how about a Bahomet or Kostiechie adventure? Some of the lesser known of the major demon lords could use the SKR treatment. Samantha
Wil Save, circa Dungeon 120. This is too easy. Like shooting ducks in a barrel. It is the worst to date. Disjointed, pointless, rambling. Read Erik Mona’s Castle Bristol editorial. Then read Wil Save. Wil needs to take a lesson from Erik in how to connect with an audience. But then Erik is D&D to the core. Wil is SJG to the core. GURPS! I mean, OOPS! Wrong mag, Wil. Samantha
Otter, This is a masterful post. My compliments on what is, IMO, the best defense of or rationale for Wil Save I have read to date. What also impresses me is that you have also made one of the best indictments of Wil Save I have read. This is a very well balanced post. Let me quote. “Most of us read fantasy novels. We've all had the experience of reading a really fantastic book that sets your imagination on fire. We've also read books that are... fun, yes, but when you put them down you don't really think about it other than wanting to get to the next one. . . .They're fun, they're exciting, they've got massive scope, but let's face it, they're fluff. On the other hand, we have writers like Terry Pratchett. . . . It's rare that people come away from Pratchett's writing without a new insight into whatever the book was about.
What does all of this have to do with Wil Save? . . . Wil Save helps provide a connection between that fun, exciting adventure and our own lives. It bridges the gap between fantasy and reality, helping to bring the content alive. It takes Dungeon from a Salvatore level (goofy fun) to a Pratchett level (goofy fun that makes you think, too).” This is simply the best defense or rationale for Wil Save I have read. While it is always possible to quibble about the qualities of various fantasy authors, and who is a standin for who, I take your more generalized point and will not quibble. Quoting again from your post. “Of course, not everyone can relate to Wil's stories. That's where he's really failing. I'm still enjoying the stories, but they're not really up to the level they should be. Wil can do better; it's a shame he's not improving. We'll see.” This is one of the best indictments of Wil Save that I have read. I find particularly noteworthy - “it’s a shame he’s not improving” and “we’ll see.” What I read you as saying is that, while you are willing to give Wil Save a chance, you hope that the articles will improve from where they are now. I think, at the risk of being severely upbraided, that we have at least a small community of agreement that Wil Save should be better than it presently is. Where we differ appears to be in our willingness to await improvement. However unflattering, I appear to be less generous than you are with respect to waiting for Wil Save to improve. Your comment, however, expresses better than I have why I think Wil Save is doomed to failure. As you note, it is not improving, and while some people will be more patient than I am, eventually, if Wil Save does not improve, more people are going to come to find it not worth being included in Dungeon. My impatience is born of two impressions. Reading the Wil Save columns that have been published so far, I see an amazing consistency in tone, style and delivery. While I do not care for it, these columns have a very distinctive voice. Reading the author’s website, I find the same voice consistent over a period of years. Given these readings, I do not think it is reasonable to expect Wil Save to change or improve and thus, I decline to wait, hoping against hope for improvement. The column will remain what it is and people will either like it or not. Those hoping for improvement will eventually be disappointed and when that number of people reaches critical mass (with those already disenchanted with the column), the column will be cancelled, if the contract for the column does not first expire without being renewed. While I have not changed my thinking that Wil Save should be terminated immediately for reasons I have earlier set out, I find I do not disagree with your post, as I read it, but rather, I agree. It would be great if Wil Save were improved to make a connection that I now don’t feel, but not feeling that connection and holding out no reasonable, IMO, hope for such an improvement, I am forced to remain in the No-Wil-Save column. However, that in no way detracts from my appreciation of your, IMO, outstanding post. Very well written. Samantha
No time to play wrote:
I don’t know the answer to your specific question. I can say that I think that, right now, Dungeon is the superior magazine and that may have something to do with it. While I don’t think either Dungeon or Dragon is inherently a better magazine or concept, I think Dungeon has executed its concept better than Dragon. I find Dragon nearly unreadable in its present incarnation. For me, this is quite a flip-flop. Until fairly recently, I never read Dungeon. As a DM, I figured I had no need for ‘canned’ adventures and hence no need for Dungeon. My attitude was changed by three things. Dungeon started including adventures for low, medium and high levels in every issue; this meant that at least one adventure in each issue now had the potential to be useful, everything else being equal. Dungeon began to include substantial Greyhawk content; as a longtime Greyhawker, this makes my toes curl up. While on that topic, I’d love to see some support in Dungeon for other old but good settings like Birthright, Al-Qadim and Oriental Adventures. Finally, Dungeon began to include non-adventure content - Critical Threats, Maps of Mystery, little articles like Wolf Bauer’s article on artist treasure. Meanwhile, one door down, Dragon was self-immolating. There are issues of Dragon where the pages are so darkly coloured or oddly patterned or strangely laid out, with print that seems to all but vanish into the background, that you wonder if this is a gaming magazine or a Rorschach Test. That the content was often lackluster, disjointed or downright contemptible helped matters not at all. Before the relaunch came about, the Dragon seemed aimless, without direction or a sense of its own identity. Apparently, the Rorschach Tests were unrevealing. Unfortunately, the kindest way to describe the relaunched Dragon would be ‘busy.’ This continues to date. There seems to be a whole lot of small things going, often oddly partnered with a vaguely amorphous lead article, that all taken together don’t sum up to a good magazine. To be fair, many of the individual Dragon articles are okay on their own but either somehow don’t add up to a compelling whole or are more than counterbalanced by articles that fall flat. If there was one criticism I would make of Dragon articles generally, divorced from any specific reference to any one article or another, it would be that many of the game effects presented are muted, so much so that they appear all but bland. Blah is the way I would describe many of the actual gameplay features of too many Dragon articles. It is as if the authors were afraid to push the 3E rules set. The idea for an article and its description will sound cool but the execution will be timid, failing to deliver on the cool. These articles are all dressed up but go nowhere special. Once, Dragon kicked, took chances and pushed boundaries. Each issue was exciting in that it dared the heights, even if the attempt to summit was not always successful. By comparison, Dragon has now made base camp at the Days Inn 12 miles from the foot of the mountain and spends its days in the room drinking soda, eating chips and watching daytime TV, rousing itself only long enough to turn the channel to next month’s issue. Too often, its like the energy of the past is gone and the Dragon is just going through the motions. As I understand it, things are to change starting with Dragon 230. I will certainly look forward to seeing what Erik can do with the venerable Dragon. His touch with Dungeon has been nothing short of magic. I never thought I would buy an issue of Dungeon. While I have collection of gaming magazines, I never collected Dungeon. Now, I’m thinking about acquiring the back issues of Dungeon (I’m a completest, actually, I’m obsessive compulsive:-) but I have yet to acquire the much smaller number the back issues of Dragon I need to bring my collection up to date after a layoff. I hope Erik can ‘save’ the Dragon. Samantha :)
I am a late-comer to templates. Heck. I am a late-comer to 3rd Edition. I've only lately become comfortable with templates. In that regard, I recently purchased Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary, which is a book of templates and example templated monsters. It is a very good book to my mind. My question is this - In Dungeon, can an article submitter use templates, or monsters, from third-party publishers, like Green Ronin etc.? Or do all templates and monsters have to come from Wotc books? Thanks. Samantha
I don't know a great deal about Eberron. From what I do know, there seem to be some very unique aspects to the setting that are taken as a given. When an Eberron adventure clearly revolves around one of Eberron's unique features, for example the Warforged, I don't think there is a need for a sidebar on how to convert or adapt it to another setting. The uniqueness is likely not going to translate well in any event; it is truly a Eberron adventure and if you want to convert it to another setting, it is going to have to be done so carefully that no sidebar will be of much help. On the other hand, if an Eberron adventure is 'average' and does not take advantage of something uniquely Eberron, but rather simply assumes the givens of the setting (and could otherwise be set almost anywhere), then I think a sidebar would be helpful because what is taken as an Eberron given may need to be changed for another setting (probably) and could be handled in a sidebar. I am thinking here of the magi-tech of Eberron and of some of the more unique national-racial setups in the campaign that form a backdrop for the setting, even if they do not take center stage in a given adventure. It may seem counter-intuitive but the less Eberron-specific the Eberron adventure, the more I think a sidebar would be appreciated. Of course, I say this with less familiarity with Eberron than with other, longer established settings. In time, maybe no sidebars would be necessary for any Eberron adventure. Samantha
Grognard wrote:
I was taught to game at a very early age by my brother and sister. My brother needed another PC in the party he was running. I think I was 7 or 8. The oldest member of the party might have been 12. Gaming was like playing with dolls, except it was all in my mind. It was fun. When my brother moved from D&D to AD&D, I ‘inherited’ his D&D box and booklets. Soon enough, I was the DM for my friends and my younger sister. I would later take up AD&D but I started as a D&D DM. The World of Greyhawk folio was the first published ‘setting,’ and the first gaming product I bought with my own money. I have been a Greyhawker ever since. While I have gamed in practically every setting that has come along for D&D or AD&D, Greyhawk is special to me and is synonymous with gaming as I think of it. Being a Greyhawker has not always been easy. Because Greyhawk was closely associated with Gary Gygax, when he was no longer a part of TSR, Greyhawk suffered for it at times. While there were still Greyhawk products being published after EGG left TSR, they were not always very good. Even at a young age, I could figure this out. I became a careful purchaser, because I did not have a lot of money to spend for games. In this way, I developed an ability to critique gaming products. I knew what I liked and what I didn’t like to begin with, but gradually developed a greater appreciation for good game design more generally - how well did something achieve its stated goal and how well did it work within the game. When From the Ashes came out and ‘blew up’ the Greyhawk setting, I was very distressed, although I have since developed an appreciation for FtA. When the Greyhawk line was canceled because FtA sales were not what TSR wanted, I was even more distressed. How could TSR jettison the very first published setting? I have always loved history and this seemed wrong, not just because Greyhawk was my favorite setting. Somewhere around this time, the early 90s, although I forget whether it was late or post-FtA, I went online with AOL. I discovered, Folder One, that there were other Greyhawk fans out there and that they were just as upset as I was about what was happening to Greyhawk, particularly when it got cancelled. I became a regular poster to the AOL message boards, which at first were independent of TSR (I believe) but were later taken over by TSR. While a Greyhawk fan, I have never been a ‘purist.’ If a game was good, I’d play it happily. If I thought it was really something, I try to bring the parts I really liked into my longest running game, my Greyhawk campaign. When TSR took over the Greyhawk folder on AOL, or at least when they got the fancy interface, all TSR worlds had folders that were grouped together. This was cool! I could now chat about any AD&D or D&D world - remember this was when TSR had a monopoly on all things AD&D or D&D. TSR ‘pros’ even showed up, albeit without any particular regularity. Well. A funny thing happened. At first, I was only too happy to speak well of products I particularly liked. I even offered reviews of these products, which were well received. I guess I was egotistical. No. I was definitely egotistical. I was getting warm fuzzies from the positive responses to my reviews and so, foolishly, I began to review other products which I had purchased but with which I was less than totally happy. Silly goose. I thought I’d get warm fuzzies. Um. No. The ‘pros,’ who were only too happy to be praised, were not happy to be critiqued. They responded. So did I. Critique became criticism. One thing lead to another. I went from being the belle of the ball to being the b@~%@-queen. I am not a shrinking violet, and having other issues at the time that didn’t help matters, I was too stubborn (stupid) to simply back off. This nonsense mattered to me. Part of what drove me on (aside from ego, stubbornness and stupidity) was the certainty that, from years of gaming and having to be a careful purchaser, I was right, which I wasn’t always but I wasn’t always wrong either. Part of what drove me were personal demons that I would exorcize only after I went offline for a number of years. Part of what drove me was a sense that having TSR ‘get it right’ mattered, was important, because TSR had a lock on my favorite game. In the end, I burned out. I went offline. I got healthy. I got perspective. I played The Sims. When I came back, the world had changed. 3rd Edition was D&D, not AD&D. And there was this d20 thing and this OGL. Anybody could do D&D! The monopoly TSR had on my favorite game was broken. Gone. For all time. Wotc had no monopoly either. If a 4th Edition changed the rules, the OGL would keep going so long as there was a company who wanted to use it. In the old days, I said that part of what drove me to flog dead horses and to make posting decisions that were contrary to my own best interests was, in part, a sense that things mattered because TSR had a lock on my favorite game. When I came back, I was pleasantly surprised that I had inadvertently scored a hat trick. Perspective? Check. Demons slain? Check. And guess what? No more monopoly! It did not ‘matter’ in the way I used to think it did! Check. And. Mate. Even better, my beloved Greyhawk was back! While I was on AOL, I made a number of friends. Among these, I count Erik Mona. While we have never been mall buddies, we usually got along, except for that one time when we really did not. I was hugely happy to see Erik in charge of Dragon and Dungeon and overseeing a return of Greyhawk material, as Greyhawk is the ‘core setting’ for 3rd Edition D&D. So. I don’t need Wotc. Not for D&D. Not for Greyhawk. Not for Dragon or Dungeon. Not even the Wotc website. Wotc doesn’t matter the way I thought old-TSR mattered. It feels so good to say that! Please forgive me if I say that again. They don’t matter. And their present employees and those old ex-TSR/ex-Wotc employees don’t matter, not to me, not anymore. They matter even less, actually. So, Grognard, whoever you are, I am smiling and I am laughing. :-D You have no more power over me; if you ever did, it was my own stupidity, and those at TSR’s cupidity, that let them get under my skin. No longer. Your memory is selective. Your axe ground to nothing. I am neither buying nor biting. LOL. :-D When I first posted to this thread, I prefaced my comments with - my two cents. And I meant it. While I responded to other’s responses to my initial post, I don’t hate Wil Wheaton, despite any ‘spin’ anyone wants to put on my comments. I do happen to think Wil Save is a) poorly written (from a non-grammatical perspective), b) reflects badly on gamers and the hobby and c) has no relevance to Dungeon, and hence no business in Dungeon. That doesn’t mean I hate the author of Wil Save and I will certainly continue to buy Dungeon for its Greyhawk content. I am not going to stop buying Dungeon just because there is one page I don’t like. Wil Save is merely an annoyance, and unless improved will become an embarrassment and sufficiently divisive that the plug will get pulled, however that decision is ultimately represented. Just like old Ed Greenwood’s Wizard’s Three. While I’m happy to participate in this or any other thread, if anyone wants a fight to the bitter end over anything, thanks but no thanks. Perspective. Similarly, if anyone wants to ‘spin’ what I said to find personal offense where I was purely discussing the topic at hand (albeit discussing the particulars of the topic none to gently) or to make the issue the messenger and not the message, I will leave them to it. My two cents. Wil Save is worth nothing more to me, unless the conversation itself is fun or interesting on its own merits. I cannot muster the same passion against Wil Save as those for Wil Save seem to possess. So. Grognard. Go in peace. Or stay, if it suits you. But do neither on my account. I’m in a happy place. Everybody else. Be happy. Nothing about a game is worth high blood pressure or worse. It’s a difference of opinion, not a duel of honor. As befits a discussion of Wil Save, “Live long and prosper.” ;-D Until next time. Samantha :-D PS - I would echo the sentiment expressed that it would be interesting to know how Wil Wheaton was chosen by the Dungeon staff (as he credits them on his website) to write Wil Save. This information would not necessarily be pro or con Wil Save. It is purely factual. Erik? You post to these message boards. Give your most popular (to judge by number of posts) thread some love. How and why was Wil Wheaton chosen to write Wil Save? Maybe those who object to Wil Save are all turned around and would appreciate the column if they understood how it came to be and what you see in it. Erik?
Robert Head (Paizo Webmaster (?))writes: "As it turns out, that describes Wil Save pretty well. Most people like it. Commence flames and accusations... : )" And Robert continues: "Thanks, Medesha. You rock. As Medesha has demonstrated, the evidence is in plain sight on the boards here. Plus, all the... you know... super secret information we have here at Paizo. : ) Cheers!
So. No need for further discussion. No need for further posts on the topic. Wil Save is a hit with readers. Eh, Rob? Okay fine. Paizo is a business. Samantha
Paul McCarthy wrote:"I think she is using whatever connection in the past she had with Erik and the Dungeon staff to somehow promote her viewpoint and give it credence. By doing that she is placing her viewpoint above everyone else's on this board. Although I certainly don't like Wil's article, I can't approve of Samantha's methods. I do realize there are other people on this board who approve Wil's article and kudos to them for defending him. Samantha stepped on toes with her haughtiness and she deserves all the flame she gets." Yes. Paul. Its true. Erik and I are lovers. And I have pictures of Lisa and James. Lot's of pictures. I also hold the bank loans on Paizo. That's why I post to these forums. Its the best way to bring my amazing influence to bear. You'd think a phone call would be better, but no. Publically posting. Taking the time to write lengthy posts. Asking. Not ordering or directing. That is how best to leverage my great influence. Whenever you have a special relationship with someone or a hold over them, you always want to leverage that in public. Pillow talk? An envelope slipped under the door or over the transome? A quiet word in private? NAH! Blat it out in public! That can only increase your chances of influencing things to go your way. Otter writes: "I sure read that paragraph as being insulting... Probably because she clearly intended it that way. Probably not in a mortal-offense sort of way, but in a petty, spiteful way." Yes. Otter. It's true. Its a well known fact that you can best persuade people to your way of thinking by being as offensive and insulting to them as possible. Doubtless, that was my intent. Well, actually, my intent was doubtless to go for over-the-top b#@#&y drama queen but I guess I blew it if I came off as petty and spiteful. Rats! If I had just flamed to perdition, maybe swore at people too, I'd have had everybody eating out of my hand. I guess I will have to rely on my "special relationship with Erik" to pull me through. Damn, I hate those spurs. Well, I'd really like to stay on this side of the looking glass and continue this tea party but as the White Rabbit (or was that Bugs Bunny?) would say, "I'm late, I'm late! For a very important date!" Please make my apologies to the Red Queen. Fnord. Samantha "Alice" Quest
Koldoon writes:"I have acknowledged that there are parts of the magazine I don't like, but wouldn't ask to be removed, because I know there are people out there, in that audience (like you) who like features such as Map of Mystery. You have failed to have that respect for me. Your last post explicitly asks James to actively work to remove the article. " LOL! I was unaware that this was an academic conversation with no basis in reality. Of course, I would like to see Wil Save retired. I don't like it. Do you honestly think that everyone who has groused about Wil Save wants to see it stay or has no opinion on the matter? Please. The natural consequence of the criticism Wil Save has received is either Wil Save improves or it is retired. I just said it plainly. It has nothing to do with respecting you or disrespecting you. The kind of 'respect' you ask for would have a natural consequence of seeing Wil Save stay. Sorry. Wil Save doesn't deserve that kind of respect. I respect your opinion but that doesn't mean I will give up mine. We can agree to disagree and do so without mudslinging each other; that is respect. But either the pro-Wil Save or anti-Wil Save voices will ultimately prevail. No amount of respect will paper over the fundamental disagreement - some want to see Wil Save stay, while others want to see Wil Save go, unless it improves. This isn't personal unless you are Wil Wheaton, I suppose. And speaking of Wil Wheaton, I decided to visit his website (being an open minded sort). This guy is pathetic. He specifically invites readers to read an intro as first time visitors. Therein, he treats them to his celeb romp at Hooters where the waitress is all over him. This is in the newcomers intro mind you! Wil is DA MAN! And by god you can ask the waitresses at Hooters! And it goes on from there! This is just pathetic. Apparently, Wil has to prove his manhood in much the same way he has to prove his gaming chops. Dungeon really knows how to pick'em. I am reminded of the "Greenwood Incident" back on AOL where Ed Greenwood discovered there were those who did not find his rape fantasies cute or funny and his Wizards Three articles got jerked shortly thereafter. And now Wil Wheaton. At least he hasn't gotten his freak on in Wil Save yet. Yet. The more I discover about Wil Save's author the more I am convinced of what an embarrassment he is to gamers, Dungeon, and Paizo if they are not paying attention. Erik, James, Lisa. Its time to send Wil home to momma and put Wil Save is the trash heap of dumb marketing ideas that sounded good at the time. You are known by the company you keep. However much fun the Wil Save controversy may be in generating posts, if you look at Wil Save and Wil Wheaton, you will, I believe, find someone with whom you do not want Paizo's name associated. You can find a better mascot (note Wil Save's constant mention on the cover of Dungeon). Please. Get rid of Wil Save. IMO and Your Mileage May Vary, Samantha
Koldoon writes: “I will not bother doing a literary analysis to prove that Wil is speaking to more than Wil. You would disagree with it, because you have already made up your mind. Suffice it to say that while I respect your opinion, I disagree with it.” If I disagree with you, it will not be because I “have already made up [my] mind;” it will be because I do not find your reasoning persuasive. If you would like to do a literary analysis, please feel free to do so. I may be persuaded. I may also offer an alternative reading. Until you do offer a persuasive “literary analysis,” I have to this point found no reason to see Wil Save as other than I have described it. I respect your opinion, as well, even as I disagree with it. Please don’t patronize me with the suggestion that there is some “literary analysis” out there that, except for my closed mind, you would write and which would have me, or anyone else, singing Wil Save’s praises. If you can make the point, make it, if it is worth making. Otherwise, please don’t chalk up the effort I have made to explain my thinking to just a “closed mind.” I think I’ve offered a reasoned analysis for my opinion that deserves better. Sean writes:
Hi Sean. Please allow me to return the compliment. :D
Every issue there is a Wil Save. There is not a Map of Mystery every issue. There is not a Critical Threat every issue. The space that Wil Save occupies every month could be devoted to a monthly Map of Mystery (which I would prefer) or a monthly Critical Threat. Or a Map of Mystery could alternate months with a Critical Threat every other month. Wil Save, by occupying a monthly page, reduces the likelihood that we will see a Map of Mystery or a Critical Threat as often. That is my problem with Wil Save. Wil Save is occupying space when there are clearly better uses for that space that are not seeing monthly publication. That Wil Save is poorly written and contributes almost nothing to almost anyone only exacerbates the wasted opportunity to publish more Maps of Mystery, Critical Threats or what have you. James Jacobs writes:
Hi James, Its not replacement that is at issue. It is that the space could be used for something else. I have socks in my sock drawer. If I get rid of all my socks, the drawer is still there and I can put something else in it. If Wil Save ceases to be published, the page is still there and something else can go on it. As Dungeon Editor, I hope you will do what you can to retire Wil Save. Samantha PS - I hope you will also maintain the emphasis on the Core Setting. Can’t let that 4 part map go to waste! :D
I'd be interested in the original castle, which must be fairly elaborate. Its now ruins but I'd still like to see a map of its floors. It would make a good time travel possibility. Maybe a portal in the lower dungeons leads through time back to the original castle held in stasis. Or what not. I like floorplans! Samantha:D
Otter writes: "I love the idea of having a monthly column about gaming and the gaming life, and juggling other aspects of life with gaming." “The gaming life,” that phrase gives me the creeps. Is there such a thing as “the fantasy football life?” How about, “the stamp collecting life?” “The bowling life?” “The videogame life?” Any hobby that has “life” attached to it seems out of place to me and suggests a creepy fixation on what is a pastime. IMO, there is no such thing as “the gaming life,” unless you have no life. Life is not a game and a game does not make for a life. Gaming is like a condiment, not a meal. Koldoon writes:
I agree that something need not be part of the game mechanic to have something to do with gaming. That is not the issue. The challenge of finding time to game as an adult is obvious. Wil offered no insights. He stated the obvious and went on to talk about his real subject - Wil Wheaton. So, even to look at what he wrote from a non-mechanical standpoint, he failed. Dice possessiveness? That is a gaming cliche. So much so that it made fodder for lampooning in the Knights of the Dinner Table. Wil, again, offered no insight or even humor; he just dusted off an old cliche and used it to talk about his real topic - what Wil Wheaton is up to. The importance of having fun? We need someone to devote an article to this? Wil is the master of the painfully obvious. But that’s okay because we quickly move on to the fascinating life of Wil Wheaton. I have no objection to anyone liking Wil Save. But let’s be honest about what Wil Save is and is not. It is an article where Wil Wheaton talks about being Wil Wheaton, with some mention of gaming tossed in. It is neither useful from a mechanical standpoint nor insightful from a non-mechanical standpoint. If someone enjoys Wil Save, they are enjoying it for Wil Wheaton, which is exactly how I think he wants and likes it. This is where Wil Save is inappropriate for Dungeon, or Dragon. It is a celebrity puff piece. And it is not well written. Well written means more than proper grammar, a spell check and the ability to connect thoughts in sentences and paragraphs. Good writing has those characteristics but is distinguished by an expression of thought that is immediate to the reader in a more than casual fashion. Wil’s writing is superficial; I described it as panting; one might also say breathless. By way of example, read his “getting my geek on” comments. What he is doing is trying to be either hip or cute, straining to have the reader understand that he is “for real.” Rather than simply let his narrative speak for itself, he feels the need to tell the reader how he is to be read and how they should understand what he has written. This is bad, self-conscious writing. Wil Wheaton is to gaming as Vanilla Ice is to rap. He’s Ice, Ice, Baby! The harder he tries, the more obvious it is that he is a poseur or a wannabe. And the writing in service of his attempts to fit cannot be described as good in anything but a grammatical since. Wil Wheaton’s writing gives gaming a self-absorbed, desperate, pathetic, creepy quality. By way of contrast, look at ASEO’s “cartridges as minis” writing. The 50-caliber barbarian story line could have been ruined if ASEO had felt compelled to explain why using a 50-caliber shell for a barbarian was worthy of note. Instead, he just laid it out and left it to the reader to get it. This is good writing (I laughed my head off when I read that and could immediately imagine the scene). Wil could take a lesson. ASEO’s writing was natural and unforced. Wil’s writing is forced, and self-referential. ASEO let the soldier with the 50-caliber barbarian have the spotlight. Wil always has to see himself in the spotlight. It all comes back to Wil and in the end is all about Wil. You can also look at almost any of Erik’s editorials. An editorial, because it sets out to be an editorial, is always to a degree forced. However, Erik writes through the forced premise with amazing ability. By the time he is done, he leaves you feeling included in his comments. This is way more than merely being natural. At his best, Erik’s editorials draw the reader in, make them forget the forced premise and leave them feeling like they just had a conversation with Erik. Wil’s writing is hopelessly devoid of anything of the sort; he relies on being Wil Wheaton to engage the reader. He’s Ice, Ice, Baby! Samantha
Paul McCarthy wrote: I would not consider it hankering, Qsamantha, just curiousity to see these old modules revisited in a new format. . . .That's why I would give Dungeon the vote to rewrite them. I like new material too, but I would like to see just a few classics like Saltmarsh or the Master of the Desert Nomad series revamped for third edition rules. By all means, keep the new material coming but maybe one edition with these adventures included or any other series the readers would like to see done. Hi Paul, By hankering I just meant being desireous of seeing, that's all. :D I think Erik has mined this territory for as much as he can with Maure Castle etc. and that further efforts would yield diminishing returns and could even be counterproductive. All the same, if they wanted to do something like what you suggest in an Annual, then I would be all for it. Both Saltmarsh and Nomads are terrific series but Nomads would need to be developed for Greyhawk, of course. ;-D Samantha
I like this idea! And they could all be set in Greyhawk! I mean the "core setting." You - will - be - ASSIMILATED! Samantha ;-D PS - Any Eberron adventures, any adventures for that matter, but especially Eberron, should have "core setting" sidebars, explaing where they would be set and how adapted. Core is core.;D So, let's core the Realms and Eberron. :-D
Thank you, Erik. I was feeling a wee bit dumb looking at the Sheldomar map section, as I did not immediately, or upon reflection, recognize all of those places. Your list of sources is very useful. It does give me pause, however, to offer a tinsy bit of criticism of the maps. As opposed to cataloging every middlesex, village and farm, it might have been an idea to create something new, that no one had seen before but which would then be meaningfully developed. Most of the obscure places on the map are obscure for a reason, nothing much happened there. New places, where something will be developed to happen and to matter (more than a mention here or there), would have been pretty cool foreshadowing. A tinsy criticism. But I love the maps and appreciate the effort both to put them together and get them in the magazine. Samantha :-D
My two cents, Wil Wheaton's articles are all about one thing. Wil Wheaton. They really, IMO, have very little to do with gaming. Gaming is just an excuse for Wil Wheaton to talk about Wil Wheaton. So, not only is Wil Save irrelevant to gaming in a direct way, it is irrelevant to gaming even tangentally. Gaming is just the vehicle for Wil Wheaton to tell you what he did on such and such a date or occasion. This kind of article couldn't even make it in Entertainment Magazine or that sort of celeb watching magazine, as it has no general interest unless you are interested in Wil Wheaton as Wil Wheaton. Wil Wheaton was obviously given Wil Save because of his celebrity. He has no gaming credentials other than having rolled dice like millions of other gamers. His only distinguishing feature is a minor celebrity, now in the past. This is no reason to continue to indulge his musings on what it is like to be Wil Wheaton. But it is only one page. Why should anyone care? If you don't like it, don't read it. Right? Wrong. Wil Save is embarassing to all gamers because Wil Wheaton is being held out as a kind of Everygamer or Supergamer or Celebgamer. He is not any of the three, not even a celeb any more. And the actual context, where Wil Wheaton talks about Wil Wheaton, is written in a fashion that is so self-obsessed, so panting and so lacking in anything that could be called insightful as to be a poor representation of gaming or gamers. It is not even low comedy because Wil Wheaton obviously takes his subject, Wil Wheaton, so seriously. Wil should tell it to his shrink or get one. He has no place in any gaming periodical. To those who like Wil Save, I honestly don't think you will miss just one page. You can read Wil's blog. The page would be better used for a Map of Mystery, every issue, which is actually useful and has something to do with gaming. My two cents. Samantha
With all respect for those hankering to see old modules revisited, I would not be interested in seeing this. Old modules are available. You can buy them for a fair price from any number of online dealers in used games. Or you can buy many of them dirt cheap in PDF format from e-tailers. In most old modules, which were site based, the sites will be static. Any revisting will involve restocking the dungeon which is ho-hum if you have the adventure, either buying it originally, buying it used or buying it in PDF. A very few old modules might have been good enough to revisit, beyond those that already have been, but many of those would not translate well to a magazine, IMO. Many are too large and would require an issue to themselves. I'd prefer new material. Samantha
Omand wrote:
I just got Dungeon 114 this week and wanted to comment on the Isle of Dread material. I sort of agree with Ormand. The Demogorgon material would benefit with a bit more fleshing out. Overall, however, I really liked the Isle of Dread material. I wonder, however, about merging material that has previously been identified as part of another setting with Greyhawk. Raiders of the Princess Ark? As a Greyhawk fan, I'm pleased. If I was a Mystara fan, I might not be. There any number of no longer supported setting materials that might be moved into the "core D&D setting" (if I understand correctly that this means Greyhawk). I have a suggestion. Run a readers poll, in the magazine or on the web. Ask readers to name their top three modules for settings that are no longer supported that they would like to see revamped as part of the "core D&D setting" (ie Greyhawk). Tally the results and, once a year, do one of the top three vote getters, just like Isle of Dread. I bet people would get interested. Samantha
I just got a copy of Dungeon 112 this week, so please forgive the revival of an old thread. I was fascinated by Maure Castle, in that because I have WG5, the Dungeon adventure holds a lot of promise for running some kind of a time travel adventure or flashback adventure. I also think that Maure Castle could be the super-Dungeon that Greyhawk has never really had. Castle Greyhawk was promised but haphazardly delivered in two modules. Maure Castle, to judge by the hooks, could be developed for quite some time. In such case, I do not think waiting on EGG or Rob Kuntz should be a prerequisite. If they can submit say once a year, that would be great. If their schedules will not allow that, then someone else should be allowed to develop a level. Mauce Castle could be Dungeon's continuing super-Dungeon. I really liked the background material on the Maure's as well. I would like to see more of that with any future expansions of Castle Maure. Samantha
“I will say that 3E is more work in the beginning, especially for DM's of course, but certainly I think it is a better platform for Greyhawk to build off of, anyway I hope you can give it a try. :-)” Thanks, Craig. :) I probably will, if I am being honest about it. When I went to the store to get a copy of Dungeon 118, I sort of had a shopping spree. :/ All those pretty games to go with my pretty map. :) I know what I got probably won’t fit in the Hyborian Age but Greyhawk is elastic. I think I am doomed to be a GreyHeretic, however, as I just can’t see some of the 3D&D options fitting in Greyhawk Classic either, but unlike the Hyborian Age, I do not think Greyhawk really has a style guide in its source material beyond a certain “here there be medieval fantasy” feel, that feels like it could be real if dragons etc. actually existed. “It wasn't a server problem - we were making a few too many database queries each time we generated a page - especially the front page. We just rolled out changes that should substantially reduce page-load times, and we are planning changes that should provide a further speedup in the near future.
Thanks for the clarification. It seems a bit more reliably quicker now, I think. “The Dungeon Folder is really the place for Greyhawk talk related to new modules in the magazine. The best place for Greyhawk discussion is at Wizards' Greyhawk Forum.
Thank you for the recommendations. :) I am looking at both sites. Things sure have changed. I can appreciate that the Paizo site is primarily in the business of supporting Paizo magazines. Paizo is expanding into selling games, however, and Paizo’s magazines provide content that is directly useful in a game, not just a good read. It is their business but I could see a place for a broader discussion on Paizo’s site that would maybe benefit the company by drawing more people in. Come for the entertainment, stay for the food. The store announcement seems to suggest some kind of expansion of their message boards to include more about just games, but I could be reading it wrong. “QSam - Please take Canonfire only in moderation. We just got you back, I'd rather not overwhelm & burn you out too soon!!
Hi Nell. :-) Duly noted. And thank you! I read the FAQ and the help folder and see that I recognize some of the Powers That Be from old times. Moderation would seem to be in order. Even caution. :) We don’t want Psmedger to get his undies in a bunch. Samantha
Erik Mona wrote:
Thanks, Erik. Thought so, but I think I will look to rethink the LoBI. Art spurs the imagination. Samantha
Comparing the Land of Black Ice (LoBI) on the new map with the Darlene version, I note that the LoBI is not entirely black. I count 5 types of ice: blue-black, light blue-black, grey, white and blue. Is this artistic licence or is this an intentional move away from the idea of a solid mass of blue-black ice? I really like the way the new LoBI looks. Samantha PS - I buy my own copy of the new map tommorrow!!! :-D
"It reminded me of the old AOL days and perhaps in small measure made me feel a little old, a lot less energetic. But it certainly brought a smile to my face.
Same here.:-D What’s the quote from that Star Trek movie? “Time is the fire in which we burn?” We were younger. I know I was dumber. But we could dance. ;-) Now, you’ve got me waxing nostalgic. It was a lot of fun. Mostly.:) And look who’s here! "Wow. You could knock me over with a feather right now. It's really great to see you're still around, Sam.
OMG! Nell! Stone, indeed. It is great to “see” you too.:-D Greyhawk is one of those things that gets under your fur. Games come and games go. Styles change. Greyhawk is constant. They say your first love is always special. Whether it’s a matter of the latest dog having had its day, or something that comes along to energize the setting, like the new map, it seems that once a Greyhawker, always a Greyhawker. While I am really impressed with the effort that has gone into the Conan rpg and as a huge Howard fan, when someone asks about gaming, I answer reflexively, “I am a Greyhawker.” I can’t see that ever changing. I think Greyhawk is in some way a statement about how you approach gaming as much as just a description of a preferred setting. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I have not been around much. Second only to Greyhawk, the Sims really got me hooked, to the point that I pretty much stopped roleplaying. While video games can be fun, they are not a real substitute for the social interaction of roleplaying. When I heard about the Conan rpg, that realization quickly dawned. I will say this, however; getting away from it all for a while does bring a greater appreciation for getting back to roleplaying. I know video games way outsell rpgs but I can’t help but think that inside every dedicated video game player is someone who could really get into roleplaying if they were properly exposed to it and had a good group with which they could experience rpgs. While I enjoyed the Sims, I am really having a great time getting back to rpgs. And boy has that world changed! I feel like I am almost discovering it all over again! :-D Strand. Strand. Strand. Tusking Strand. Gimme a minute and I’ll get it. Beyond the details of the Tusking Strand, I really like that the obvious circumnavigation of the Land of Black Ice, for at least part of the year anyway, raises a host of possibilities. Ice Barbarian longboats meet Baklunish dhows off the coast of Hyperborea (aka Telchuria, aka Polaria)? Now, this is cool. :-D And the Utter West awaits! Gods, that gets the juices flowing! Kickstart my heart! I really can’t wait to see the rest of the maps to see what surprises they hold in store.:) ""Awakened" this is reference to a spell in the Player's Handbook called Awaken. It gives an animal human-like intelligence. "Titantic" this is a template that you can apply to certain monsters to make them bigger than giant-sized. It was first published in the back of the current Monster Manual II. "Horizon Walker" this is a "prestige class" available in the Dungeon Master's Guide. A Horizon Walker is essentially a specialized Ranger class." Thank you, John. While I have the basic books, I have really only skimmed them for the most part. Its like a new world.
"Reading this I could only think how sad that QSamantha missed Maure Castle, Dungeon 112. Certainly my largest highlight for Greyhawk in 3rd edition rules so far. Hopefully she can search that one out.
LOL! Thanks, Craig.:-) While I was bsing with my gaming group this past weekend, I got an earful of, “Look what you missed.” Well. Yeah. That’s what I get for literally not stepping into a game store (rpg kind) for years. I knew I was missing stuff after I started roleplaying again from comments but had not pursued it. Call it Sims withdrawal. Now. ::looks in wallet:: I see I have lots of “fun” in store, as I get to play catch-up.:) Thank you for the recommendation. Thankfully, back issues of Dungeon and Dragon are not too hard to find, I think, and may cost less than cover, if prior experience holds. Oh, yes! With respect to 2E, it was never anything but 1E’s cousin. I think of 2E and 1E as essentially the same game, that being 1E, but then I started with 1E and just kept on in that vein with 2E. It was 3E that was a departure for me; one which really turned me off until Conan. I do not know the real difference between 3E and 3.5E, so I will call them both 3E. If 3E is more Grey, I think it is because of things like the map and the Castle Maure article you mention. I do not think it is the rules. The addition of elements in 3E (and how those feel in play) that were not present when the majority of Greyhawk material was written, IMO, lends 3E a sense of otherness with respect to Greyhawk. This is one reason I really like the Conan rpg; it feels more natural. I know that is awfully vague but there you go. :) If/when I get back to Greyhawk, I think I would use a modified Conan version of 3E or go back to 1/2E. I should probably add quickly that I am not dissing 3E. I was there when that started and got my fill.;-) I am simply too unfamiliar with 3E, except in its Conan incarnation, to do other than give you my basic sense. Erik, maybe you should add a Greyhawk folder to the Paizo site. :-O Or would that be the Dungeon folder? ;-) One thing you guys at Paizo should do is get your servers upgraded. Logging onto this site, even when I use a T1 line, seems painfully slow. It’s the peddle on right. ;) Samantha PS - Congratulations to your grandmother. :) That's a pretty cool thing to do for her birthday!
Hi Iq, December is a fittingly 'grey' month, with lots of clouds that, this year, have brought one rainstorm after another. Frighteningly, it is possible to get used to a cold damp. I’m dreaming of a wet Christmas? Not like the kind I used to know. We never had snow but it was dry at least. I guess the UK was ahead of the global warming curve and everybody else is just now starting to catch up. But you can get used to it and eventually the rain will turn to snow. For my purposes, the poor weather is perfect for good gaming. Everyone is glad to be warm, dry and the weather outside contrasts with the game inside. I think bad weather may tend to spur people to be more imaginative. As DM, I had already done considerable imagining. The party was going to be adventuring in the Rabirian Mountains. They have been trying to impress the Count of Poitain. Since retiring from playing the Sims, I have been playing the Conan RPG, IMO, the best rpg to come along since Greyhawk and the one that finally got me to purchase anything connected with the 3rd Edition of Dungeons & Dragons. So the players start to arrive and Terry, shrugging out of a damp overcoat, says, “Sam, you’ve got to see this!” As it turns out, 'this' is a copy of Dungeon Magazine No. 118 and, more specifically, there is a map of northwest Greyhawk. Now, I have not played in the World of Greyhawk since the late 90's, but my friends know that I was and am a huge fan of the setting. I was burned out on Greyhawk and found the Sims, which is as addictive a video game as can be imagined. Best of all, you get to design your Sims clothes, houses and furnishings! For a detail oriented gamer, the Sims is crack. That there is a huge online Sims community is frosting on the cake. I was also not enamored of the then forthcoming 3rd Edition of D&D. It looked like a different game from AD&D and one that did not appear at all Grey. From what I’ve seen of the basic 3D&D game since taking up the Conan rpg, I was right. Thankfully, the Conan rpg does justice to Howard’s stories and makes the rules work for the setting, along with some just really top notch designs like Across the Thunder River. Greyhawker’s looking for a Flan sourcebook would do well to take a look at Across the Thunder River. The Picts have a similar Native American/Celtic vibe going. So, I am presented with a copy of Dungeon 118 and a new map of part of the World of Greyhawk with three more installments to come. One thing leads to another and we never did end up playing the adventure I had prepared. We wound up talking about gaming instead, which can be just as fun. I asked to borrow the issue and I thought I would share my thoughts. First off, congratulations on being named the Dungeon editor and now Dragon editor. It could not have happened to a more deserving person. Second thing, thank you for finding a way to include Greyhawk material in the Dungeon and particularly the new map of the Flanaess. On to the map. As you may recall, I was always very strong in favor of good looking maps, for the exact reason you mention in your editorial. Maps help you visualize the setting and spur the imagination. (BTW, your folio must be a different one than mine as mine makes no mention of the Iron League on the map itself as you indicate in the editorial. ;-)) The new map of the Flanaess is beautiful. I would rank it third on my list of best maps. Darlene’s would come first, followed by the Al-Qadim map and now the new Flanaess map. It is really fantastic. It is also extremely useful in defining much that has been vague. In terms of an essential map of the Flanaess, you have produced it. Everyone will have their own view of what is best and not so best about the map segments. For me, the thing that makes this first map segment, besides the art, is the depiction of the Tusking Sound. The Flanaess has the capacity to feel developed, even over developed, as if the wilderness where monsters hold sway is being hemmed in or pushed back by an ever increasing number of towns, villages or other sites. I thought FtA-era products really started this trend. The Tusking Sound runs the other way. It is undeveloped wilderness and I think the Flanaess, or any setting, benefits from having areas like this, areas wide open for DM and player development. Here there be monsters. The Tusking Sound is also reminiscent Norwold from CM1, Test of the Warlords. I love that module and I think the Flanaess is enriched by having its own Norwold. If I had to find something wrong with the first map segment, it would be the failure to include two, IMO, very neat sites. Radruundar from Axe of the Dwarvish Lords is said to be “in the Yatil Mountains northwest of Exag.” Mathghamhna from College of Wizardry is said to be in “the northwesternmost spur of the Yatmil (sic) Mountains.” I think both of these sites are very cool but they can also shed potential light on the Exag mystery. I’ll guess that these places may have been classed with Places of Mystery and thus omitted. With respect to the magazine itself, some notes. Box of Flumph harks back to Roger Moore’s irreverent take on AD&D, but not quite to his extreme. The Flumph as even a semi-serious monster? That’s a matter of taste. IMC, like calamari. I really liked the map of Stillsquall. That is very useful. Shadow of the Abyss gets high marks from me for the use of the kaorti from the new Fiend Folio, a cool monster. It would be interesting to see if this goes anywhere or if the kaorti is just a throwaway. I tend to think throwaway, which is unfortunate. The adventure strikes me as sort of all over, but I am coming in midway through. The maps are, again, great. It is really nice that you can take away useful maps, on top of the adventure. The Statement of Ownership caught me off guard. Not even 50,000? Ack! Back in the day, I seem to remember a high of 112,000 and several years between 50,000 and 100,000, but I could be hallucinating. The Throne of Iuz is fantastic! This is a really well conceptualized and developed adventure that reeks with cool possibilities. King Bog reminds me of Jabba the Hutt. He passes the villain test with flying colors. He is too cool to kill. The maps are, again, superior with continued utility, especially if you do not kill King Bog. I must confess, however, that I am no 3rd Edition expert. Can someone tell me the references for “awakened,” “titanic,” and “horizon walker” as King Bog is described? Dungeoncraft is pointless. Alert the Watch is okay. Instant City Shopping is filler. Art and Other Fancy Loot is great! Now, this is a good article. I absolutely loved this! Very useful and, to my knowledge, unique. Leave it to Wolfgang Baur, one of the best! Pilgrims on the Road is okay. Larsa Essinel is interesting. Oh, god. Wesley Crusher on D&D? Except, it is not about D&D. What is this about? Why is this here? The article does not even offer the hope of an answer. This seems like a stream of consciousness snipet from this dufus’ so-called life. Did someone start to think D&D was cool because Vin Diesel once played AD&D and so it was determined to bring on Wil Wheaton to dweeb things back up? I cannot tell you how poor a taste this leaves in one’s mouth. There is something maudlin, sweetly cloying and flighty about how Wheaton writes. He brings together the worst stereotypes of lame Star Trek fans, who think they are Vulcans, and nerdly, adenoidal D&D geeks, who will drone on in a breathlessly excited twitter about their 55th level ninja/paladin and the time they shattered the multiverse by accident through the too clever use of a passwall spell. Yuck! This article is an exercise is bad judgment. The Paizo Catalog. Speaking of poor judgment. I have no problem with a catalog but make it meaningful by being selective about what you choose to advertise. This looks like a grab bag or an upending of the hopper. And don’t just polly-parrot the ad copy, put some spin on the entries that will be informative beyond what’s on the back of the box. Crack the shrinkwrap, so to speak. Otherwise, this catalog has little place in the magazine as self-promotion that comes across needlessly crass. Overall then, I really thought this was an excellent magazine. One really ripping adventure (Throne of Iuz). One really ripping article (Art and Other Fancy Loot). A brilliant map. You can be sure I will buy my own copy and one of each of the other issues with map segments. I start to get that old Greyhawk feeling. :-D Very, very nice job. You’ve done well, Erik. Congratulations and many thanks! Samantha |
