Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Book of the Damned (PFRPG)

Apparently the 3 BotD PrCs will be getting reprinted, will there be any other PrCs, and if so, are they similar to those but perhaps more generic, or something else entirely?

No; just those three prestige classes. No additional prestige classes.

Mr. Jacobs,

Are we getting any information about the gods that reside in the Lower Planes? Like Camazot, Droskar, Dahak, etc.

If I could be more specific, will there be any mention about their relationship with the denizens of these planes and how they are affected by the presence of these gods?

Not much. A few are mentioned in passing, but this book is not focused on them at all.

So if it is not to late some things I hope make it into this book:

- Manifestation Rules and Manifestations of some of the big bads
- The Kobold Quarterly articles covering Golarion's Lords of Hell (Not the articles as exact copies, but generally the information about Barbatos and Dispater included in them) also the new Devils and manifestions included in them.
1. Manifestations of Barbatos: Bearded Prophet and The Eyes and Name
2. New Devil: Edavagor
3. Manifestations of Dispater: Crown of Fire and Molten Throne
4. New Devil: Ascensoriel
- The 5 part web article about Golarion's Wayward Children of the Abyss (again not exact copies of the articles but generally the information and new monsters included in them)
1. Peacock Spawn
2. Smoldering Host of the Risen (Template)
3. Child of Malignant Symmetry
- Voice of the Damned, the Book of the Damned's self actualization (see Hell Unleashed)

Keeping my fingers crossed, at least until expectation management says otherwise :)

Of this, only the Book of the Damned demiplane info and the Voice of the Damned will be in the book; the rest of it is either not really associated with the book's topics or is content we don't own and thus isn't something we can "reprint".

James, will the Diabolist and the Souldrinker be updated to incorporate Obediences?

James, will the Diabolist and the Souldrinker be updated to incorporate Obediences?

And maybe fix the glaring prerequisite problem with Souldrinker, in that it should require spellcasting but doesn't.

Ooh... looks pretty awesome. Definitely something to look out for.

James, will the Diabolist and the Souldrinker be updated to incorporate Obediences?

Yes.

Paladinosaur wrote:

James, will the Diabolist and the Souldrinker be updated to incorporate Obediences?

And maybe fix the glaring prerequisite problem with Souldrinker, in that it should require spellcasting but doesn't.

That's been fixed, as well as the fact that giving them an at will energy drain ability is over the top (instead of an at will energy drain ability, they gain a limited number of enervation spell like ability uses per day).

Things we already know that aren't in the product description. Feel free to correct me or add anything that I forgot.

1) Two pages for each of the archdevils, demon lords, the horsemen, queens of the night and the lord of all divs, containing domain, subdomain, favored weapons and other cleric/faith information, as well as obedience and boons. Comes with illustrations.

2) Small summaries for fiendsh demigods and quasi-deities, including asuras, daemons, demons, devils, kytons, onis, etc. Includes obedience, and boons in the form of three spells.

3) Revisited rules for the prestige classes in the original BotD book trilogy. Includes new rules for using obedience.

4) Informations about (and maybe stats) the Voice of the Damned and the demiplane inside the BotD.

5) Bestiary doesn't include creatures from the original trilogy, opening space for completely new threats from the various fiendsh races.

Brinebeast wrote:

So if it is not to late some things I hope make it into this book:

- Manifestation Rules and Manifestations of some of the big bads
- The Kobold Quarterly articles covering Golarion's Lords of Hell (Not the articles as exact copies, but generally the information about Barbatos and Dispater included in them) also the new Devils and manifestions included in them.
1. Manifestations of Barbatos: Bearded Prophet and The Eyes and Name
2. New Devil: Edavagor
3. Manifestations of Dispater: Crown of Fire and Molten Throne
4. New Devil: Ascensoriel
- The 5 part web article about Golarion's Wayward Children of the Abyss (again not exact copies of the articles but generally the information and new monsters included in them)
1. Peacock Spawn
2. Smoldering Host of the Risen (Template)
3. Child of Malignant Symmetry
- Voice of the Damned, the Book of the Damned's self actualization (see Hell Unleashed)

Keeping my fingers crossed, at least until expectation management says otherwise :)

Of this, only the Book of the Damned demiplane info and the Voice of the Damned will be in the book; the rest of it is either not really associated with the book's topics or is content we don't own and thus isn't something we can "reprint".

Thanks for your previous answer about the gods Mr. Jacobs.

Now, as far as we might be making too many questions, I just remembered the rules for using the BotD as an artifact from Artifacts and Legends. Are those also included here?

Now, as far as we might be making too many questions, I just remembered the rules for using the BotD as an artifact from Artifacts and Legends. Are those also included here?

Yes

Of this, only the Book of the Damned demiplane info and the Voice of the Damned will be in the book; the rest of it is either not really associated with the book's topics or is content we don't own and thus isn't something we can "reprint".

Sorry to be a little off topic, but I am a little confused and hope you can bring me greater understanding.

What are the lines of ownership for official Paizo/Golarion material published by Kobold Press. I imagine at the time Kobold Press had to get a License/Permission to publish material that is specific to Golarion (see the below quote from one of the articles).

"This article contains proper names (characters, deities, etc.), dialogue, plots, storylines, locations, and characters owned by Paizo Publishing, LLC. This content is used with the express permission of Paizo Publishing, LLC."

So because this material was originally published in a Kobold Press publication does Paizo in turn need to get permission from Kobold Press to print material form it in a Paizo publication?

Doesn't Paizo already own the content since it uses Paizo IP and was published with their permission? Or is it more of a courtesy thing where you would still want to check in with Kobold Press first, just to be good neighbors.

Or am I completely missing the mark and their are other legal concerns that I am not even thinking of?

Sorry, I love it when things are compiled and since those specific articles specifically deal with Golarion's Hell and Abyss they at least fit the theme.

Any insight you can share will be greatly appreciated.

James Jacobs wrote:

Of this, only the Book of the Damned demiplane info and the Voice of the Damned will be in the book; the rest of it is either not really associated with the book's topics or is content we don't own and thus isn't something we can "reprint".

Sorry to be a little off topic, but I am a little confused and hope you can bring me greater understanding.

What are the lines of ownership for official Paizo/Golarion material published by Kobold Press. I imagine at the time Kobold Press had to get a License/Permission to publish material that is specific to Golarion (see the below quote from one of the articles).

"This article contains proper names (characters, deities, etc.), dialogue, plots, storylines, locations, and characters owned by Paizo Publishing, LLC. This content is used with the express permission of Paizo Publishing, LLC."

So because this material was originally published in a Kobold Press publication does Paizo in turn need to get permission from Kobold Press to print material form it in a Paizo publication?

Doesn't Paizo already own the content since it uses Paizo IP and was published with their permission? Or is it more of a courtesy thing where you would still want to check in with Kobold Press first, just to be good neighbors.

Or am I completely missing the mark and their are other legal concerns that I am not even thinking of?

Sorry, I love it when things are compiled and since those specific articles specifically deal with Golarion's Hell and Abyss they at least fit the theme.

Any insight you can share will be greatly appreciated.

If it's something we retain the ownership of, we can still use it. I'm not sure off the top of my head of the status of all the things the original poster asked about, but if we wanted to re use some that content in a book we're publishing... I think we could but we might still have to chat with Wolfgang about it. I'm not sure. It's irrelevant, in any event, since we're not picking up any of that content for Book of the Damned.

Brinebeast wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Of this, only the Book of the Damned demiplane info and the Voice of the Damned will be in the book; the rest of it is either not really associated with the book's topics or is content we don't own and thus isn't something we can "reprint".

Sorry to be a little off topic, but I am a little confused and hope you can bring me greater understanding.

What are the lines of ownership for official Paizo/Golarion material published by Kobold Press. I imagine at the time Kobold Press had to get a License/Permission to publish material that is specific to Golarion (see the below quote from one of the articles).

"This article contains proper names (characters, deities, etc.), dialogue, plots, storylines, locations, and characters owned by Paizo Publishing, LLC. This content is used with the express permission of Paizo Publishing, LLC."

So because this material was originally published in a Kobold Press publication does Paizo in turn need to get permission from Kobold Press to print material form it in a Paizo publication?

Doesn't Paizo already own the content since it uses Paizo IP and was published with their permission? Or is it more of a courtesy thing where you would still want to check in with Kobold Press first, just to be good neighbors.

Or am I completely missing the mark and their are other legal concerns that I am not even thinking of?

Sorry, I love it when things are compiled and since those specific articles specifically deal with Golarion's Hell and Abyss they at least fit the theme.

Any insight you can share will be greatly appreciated.

If it's something we retain the ownership of, we can still use it. I'm not sure off the top of my head of the status of all the things the original poster asked about, but if we wanted to re use some that content in a book we're publishing... I think we could but we might still have to chat with Wolfgang about it. I'm not sure. It's irrelevant, in any event, since we're not...

I wrote the KQ content in question fwiw. Back at the time iirc Wolfgang ran it past you all for Golarion lore cohesion purposes.

If it's something we retain the ownership of, we can still use it. I'm not sure off the top of my head of the status of all the things the original poster asked about, but if we wanted to re use some that content in a book we're publishing... I think we could but we might still have to chat with Wolfgang about it. I'm not sure. It's irrelevant, in any event, since we're not...

Thank you for the insight! Those articles are good stuff (Wes and Todd did write them after all) and since they are Paizo IP please keep them on your radar for future Book of the Damned content. :)

Super excited about this book and hope we see more "chapters" of The Book of the Damned in the future!

I wrote the KQ content in question fwiw. Back at the time iirc Wolfgang ran it past you all for Golarion lore cohesion purposes.

Pardon me for my earlier post and let me clarify. I wrote the 'Wayward Children of the Abyss' stuff in KQ, not the other material from KQ mentioned as well.

Sorry Todd, poorly stated on my part. I meant that of those articles the Abyss ones were written by Todd and the Hell ones were written by Wes. It was perfectly clear in my head :)

James, what can you tell us about the Oinodaemon in The Book of the Damned?

It doesn't sound like an equal amount of demigod two page spreads and full obediences. Based on what's been said the demons are getting a huge number, the devils at least a dozen, and the daemons maybe not more than four. Everyone else (dukes of hell and daemonic harbingers) is getting scrub-tier treatment equivalent to nascent demon lords. Hope I'm wrong and this has been poorly communicated.

It's not like each one has an equal number of Demigod type beings in Pathfinder, do they?

The Abyss is huge, it surrounds the other planes, so we shouldn't expect a balance in number. It's also not static, the amount of full Demon Lords could grown or shrink as I see it. Two Nascents could be promoted tomorrow, or a dead Demon Lord could have no replacement in it's role at all.

Hell is Hierarchical- it allows only so many at the top, and allows for their rapid replacement, but not expansion. So it's dukes are truly waiting in the wings.

The Horsemen, too. They're unusual in that all four are tightly allied and work together in a more... trusting manner than the others. But they're also a tight cabal and would turn on one not in their circle rivaling their power.

Not that I'd call nascents and dukes 'scrub tier'. Especially the strongest, some are only a hair below Demigod.

Well...IIRC some of the dukes are already CR 25+ power already, they just are not necessarily as high up in the hierarchy as archdevils.

- 2 pages for the Lord of All Divs;
- 8 pages for the Queens of the Night;
- 8 pages for the Four Horsemen;
- 16 pages for the Archdevils;
- 62 pages for the Demon Lords.

96 pages. All of which are also getting illustrations. This alone already rivals the number of pages and content for major campaign setting products.

I can't even imagine the size and price of this product if we had 2 pages + illustration for each of the other fiendish demigods and quasi-deities...... ^v^'

At least we are getting their names, lore/flavor summaries, and the necessary statistics so that their worshipers are actually playable. That's already a lot more than we got on the bestiaries and other products... =D

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

I'm very sorry to hear that all of the daemonic harbingers are getting the treatment of low CR, also-ran, nascent demon lord chumps. A decent proportion should be senior guys who are potential horseman replacements and deserving of full boons. I'd like to have seen them developed further.

The same applies to a lesser extent with Dukes of Hell, but with 12 archdevils and queens getting the full treatment I can see why you stopped here rather than add in Furcas and several other senior dukes.

You tell Vorasha or Folca that they're also-ran chumps! >:)

I don't think anyone wants to get near that windowless, brown panel van Folca drives through Abaddon, EVER.

James, what can you tell us about the Oinodaemon in The Book of the Damned?

Nothing new from in previous publications. That's a character we're more or less deliberately choosing to leave vague and mysterious.

Well...IIRC some of the dukes are already CR 25+ power already, they just are not necessarily as high up in the hierarchy as archdevils.

Yea, that makes a lot of sense. In Hell, you cannot advance until there's an opening, no matter how strong you are (because boss Asmodeus may not... *like* it if you jump the line).

In the Abyss, you advance when *something* pushes you over the edge and it's hard to tell what.

In Abaddon... you advance if you survive.

Prince Setehrael wrote:

James, what can you tell us about the Oinodaemon in The Book of the Damned?

Nothing new from in previous publications. That's a character we're more or less deliberately choosing to leave vague and mysterious.

We could at least have an illustration for him... =/

Or should I picture him like this.

I'll be interested to see how the devils in this who already have full deific obediences (Geryon, Moloch, Mephistopheles, Mahathallah) get revised for the more condensed but generally more powerful design of the demonic obediences. Mahathallah should be particularly different, as her basic boon is by far the most powerfully unbalanced and the only one I know of not approved for PFS.

James Jacobs wrote:

Prince Setehrael wrote:

James, what can you tell us about the Oinodaemon in The Book of the Damned?

Nothing new from in previous publications. That's a character we're more or less deliberately choosing to leave vague and mysterious.

We could at least have an illustration for him... =/

Or should I picture him like this.

I think it's more like this.

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Prince Setehrael wrote:

James, what can you tell us about the Oinodaemon in The Book of the Damned?

Nothing new from in previous publications. That's a character we're more or less deliberately choosing to leave vague and mysterious.

We could at least have an illustration for him... =/

Or should I picture him like this.

I think it's more like this.

Well, we have the miniature of Oinodaemon and the crucified Lilith. If we combine the two I'm sure it will be close to perfect. XD

We could at least have an illustration for him... =/

I thought he was visible in the skies of Abaddon?

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

We could at least have an illustration for him... =/

I thought he was visible in the skies of Abaddon?

Unfortunately not, there's no illustration/depiction for Pathfinder incarnation of the Oinodaemon.

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

We could at least have an illustration for him... =/

I thought he was visible in the skies of Abaddon?

Yeah, that omnipresent eclipse in Abaddon's skies is pretty much a lidded eye of the dead/imprisoned Oinodaemon. The Four have to worry about if they won so long ago or if they monumentality screwed up. Campaign fodder right there.

Now that it's been revealed that the Horsemen will be statted in Bestiary 6, I look forward to running a combat encounter between an optimized level 20 party against all four of them at once.

Now that it's been revealed that the Horsemen will be statted in Bestiary 6, I look forward to running a combat encounter between an optimized level 20 party against all four of them at once.

I suspect the Four will feast. :)

Axial wrote:

Now that it's been revealed that the Horsemen will be statted in Bestiary 6, I look forward to running a combat encounter between an optimized level 20 party against all four of them at once.

I suspect the Four will feast. :)

Todd Stewart- Daemon symathizer? ^^

Todd Stewart wrote:

Axial wrote:

Now that it's been revealed that the Horsemen will be statted in Bestiary 6, I look forward to running a combat encounter between an optimized level 20 party against all four of them at once.

I suspect the Four will feast. :)

Todd Stewart- Daemon symathizer? ^^

Now might be a worthy time to look up the author credits for the third Book of the Damned.

Short answer: yes. ^_^

Dark Midian wrote:

Paladinosaur wrote:

James, will the Diabolist and the Souldrinker be updated to incorporate Obediences?

And maybe fix the glaring prerequisite problem with Souldrinker, in that it should require spellcasting but doesn't.

That's been fixed, as well as the fact that giving them an at will energy drain ability is over the top (instead of an at will energy drain ability, they gain a limited number of enervation spell like ability uses per day).

The energy drain feature is the only thing making the souldrinker worthwhile. Everything else is too uninteresting.

James Jacobs wrote:

Dark Midian wrote:

Paladinosaur wrote:

James, will the Diabolist and the Souldrinker be updated to incorporate Obediences?

And maybe fix the glaring prerequisite problem with Souldrinker, in that it should require spellcasting but doesn't.

That's been fixed, as well as the fact that giving them an at will energy drain ability is over the top (instead of an at will energy drain ability, they gain a limited number of enervation spell like ability uses per day).

The energy drain feature is the only thing making the souldrinker worthwhile. Everything else is too uninteresting.

A) I'm adding in support for boons and obediences for the souldrinker, and...

B) Not every class has to be of equal value to every gamer, and...

C) Being potentially able to inflict one negative level per round (and later 2 per round) is more than "worthwile..." It's fundamentally over the top compared to pretty much every other class option we've published. That is an ability that should be limited to monsters. As for the rest being uninteresting... I can't help but read that as "not overpowered" in the context of your quote.

Feel free to change the more limited enervation ability that I'm replacing the limitless energy drain power with back to the prior version if you wish, but for the baseline assumptions? It's way too much.

I suppose it will also update some info and rules to go with some of the RPG line books that came out since then?

There will be some table appendixes like that for the less-well-documented demigods and quasi-deities (such as the oni daimyo and the asura ranas and the rest), but not for demon lords or archdevils or the like... there's just no room for that, and those tables already exist in Inner Sea Gods if you need them. All of the domain and favored weapon and other key information for clerics IS included for each of them in their own entry though.

No room for things like sacred animal or color or the like. It's not a case of being inappropriate info for the RP line, but a case of physics—those tables take up a lot of room (see Inner Sea Gods for proof) and I'd rather use that space on other things.

Increase page count to 320? It could also allow some extra artworks and/or (undeleted) texts.

Well...IIRC some of the dukes are already CR 25+ power already, they just are not necessarily as high up in the hierarchy as archdevils.

The CR part might have been retconned since Mythic Adventures.

@ Axial, I think all four of them at once would be over CR 30...

I suppose it will also update some info and rules to go with some of the RPG line books that came out since then?

James Jacobs wrote:

There will be some table appendixes like that for the less-well-documented demigods and quasi-deities (such as the oni daimyo and the asura ranas and the rest), but not for demon lords or archdevils or the like... there's just no room for that, and those tables already exist in Inner Sea Gods if you need them. All of the domain and favored weapon and other key information for clerics IS included for each of them in their own entry though.

No room for things like sacred animal or color or the like. It's not a case of being inappropriate info for the RP line, but a case of physics—those tables take up a lot of room (see Inner Sea Gods for proof) and I'd rather use that space on other things.

Increase page count to 320? It could also allow some extra artworks and/or (undeleted) texts.

MMCJawa wrote:

Well...IIRC some of the dukes are already CR 25+ power already, they just are not necessarily as high up in the hierarchy as archdevils.

The CR part might have been retconned since Mythic Adventures.

@ Axial, I think all four of them at once would be over CR 30...

If we increase the page count to 320, then why not to 360, and if we got to 360 why not to 512, and so on. No, it's better to pick a pagecount and aim for that, since that lets us plan responsibly for things like production time, print time, the physical size of the book (it costs more to print and produce and store and ship books with more pages), to say nothing of the fact that every page we put in a book requires time from artists and authors and developers and editors and art directors and so on.

And beyond that, the time to "increase" the page count should be when we're assigning the writers for the book... which was close to a year ago. If we were to assign another 32 pages of authors to the book at this point, the book would be more expensive, would miss its ship date, and cause a host of other ripple effect problems.

I'm a little confused because this strikes me more as a campaign setting book.

I'm a little confused because this strikes me more as a campaign setting book.

That's probably because this book is close to what you would expect from a compilation of the three campaign setting books with the same name; but with more content and revisited rules.

The best part about this book being in the RPG line is that its contents are probably going to be REALLY useful for those using the PRD or designing their own books.

- Rules for obedience.
- 3 new prestige classes.
- Spells, equipments, feats...
- New creatures to fight.

And so on...

Lore about the three major evil aligned planes is surely going to be pleasant as well, as it can easily fit in any setting where planes exist.

Okay, while I concede that a core hardcover manual that covers the fiendish planes of the multiverse was probably inevitable and ultimately probably necessary for the setting, I will never the less say that I fully expect the Chronicle of the Righteous and Concordance of Rivals to ALSO GET HARDCOVERS sometime afterwards.

Expectation management: I wouldn't get your hopes up too much. It's sad, but I just don't see it coming to pass.

I don't think it's fair that the fiendish planes of the Multiverse and the vile powers that dwell there get a full-blown hardcover and yet the celestial planes as well as the planes of law, chaos, balance, elements, and energies don't get the same treatment. Of course I realize that life isn't fair but so far Paizo has been kinda neutral on the let's produce content for adventuring parties of both good and evil alignments. I don't want that balance to shift towards primary evil aligned content. We'll have to see I guess.

*has expectation management as a class skill*

I don't think it's fair that the fiendish planes of the Multiverse and the vile powers that dwell there get a full-blown hardcover and yet the celestial planes as well as the planes of law, chaos, balance, elements, and energies don't get the same treatment. Of course I realize that life isn't fair but so far Paizo has been kinda neutral on the let's produce content for adventuring parties of both good and evil alignments. I don't want that balance to shift towards primary evil aligned content. We'll have to see I guess.

Well...the thing to keep in mind is that we don't even have CS books for all those yet. We basically have Chronicles of the Righteous, and this past year we finally got books for the elemental planes and First World.

I could definitely see a Planar hardcover at some point down the line, but not for a while yet. Also The Books of the Damned has three CS books to draw from. Probably easier to hardcover-ize than the single Empyreal Lord book. Way Way more new material would need to be developed.

I mean don't get me wrong, I would buy a Hardcover Chronicles of the Righteous. But it might be better to sell that content as an overall more general "Heros of Righteousness" PC focused hardcover than something like what we have in the Books of the Damned.

I'd expect more small 'Books of the Damned' covering Kytons and perhaps other evil outsider groups, before a hardcover book of Empyreal Lords or whatnot.

Of the neutral outsiders, Psychopomps and Proteans *might* be ready for the softcover treatment (Inevitables and Axiomites, which could share a book, or Aeons, not so much), and I'd expect at least three softcovers and a couple of years to pass before a hardcover is even warranted.

Gosh, now I've jazzed myself up for a hypothetical 'Book of Balance: Proteans...' which is not even a gleam in the mailman's eye, at this point.

Gosh, now I've jazzed myself up for a hypothetical 'Book of Balance: Proteans...' which is not even a gleam in the mailman's eye, at this point.

Oh the lengths to which I would go to write that book...

I don't think it's fair that the fiendish planes of the Multiverse and the vile powers that dwell there get a full-blown hardcover and yet the celestial planes as well as the planes of law, chaos, balance, elements, and energies don't get the same treatment. Of course I realize that life isn't fair but so far Paizo has been kinda neutral on the let's produce content for adventuring parties of both good and evil alignments. I don't want that balance to shift towards primary evil aligned content. We'll have to see I guess.

Well, the thing is that this book is primarily content for adventuring parties of good alignment...it's just focusing more on areas and creatures for those parties to adventure in/against. Which is probably the reason why we're less likely to get a hardcover about the celestial planes and such...good-aligned adventurers are less likely to adventure there or combat their inhabitants, though I'd still love to see it, but I manage my expectations there for the above reasons.

And, for what it's worth, it does say, "...for use by characters who both fight against and serve the forces of darkness." Not sure on the exact ratio, but still.