Dealing With Evil Outsiders

Is there a way to make deals with demons with low level spells? I want to trade souls for favors but will have to wait a while as is.

Details in case you're interested: I'm in a homebrew mix of Pathfinder & something else. My character is a caster who gets an extremely limited number of spells but from any list. The highest level of which can be half my character level. The character is level 5, so atm I can cast 2nd level spells.

I imagine I'll have to wait until I can get Lesser Planar Ally at level 8. But was hoping I missed something. Maybe common Summon Monster spells could work? Can those bring items back when dismissed? I'm pretty sure not, since they're basically tokens being summoned. I forget where I heard that, so I may be wrong. Is it possible to make deals with an outsider and have it message its superiors when it gets back? So a high-ranking daemon could teleport to the party or something? And yes, I know how insanely risky that can be for a level 5 party.

Anyway sorry for any rambling. Help plox!

Well, level 7 you can grab an imp familiar, which you might be able to have him give you the hook-up since they can commune with their creators.

do you need a special spell to make a deal with an elf? Not really. You don't really need a spell to make a deal with a demon, Planar Ally/ Binding provides a direct way to do it. It also has the effect of actually summoning the outsider in the first place. Dealing with creatures that tend to not be on the same plane of existence as you makes it tough to get started. ... but if you can find one...

As far as summon monster spells, yeah you could summon a dretch and ask it to go talk to its a more powerful demon on your behalf, however, once the summon spell ends, it's not in any particular compulsion to obey you. So it may, it may not do as you ask.

Any outsider that has the power to help you out probably also has the ability to kill your entire party at this level. Or at the very least: kill you in your sleep.So you better be sure you have something it wants bad enough that it wont just decide to kill you for interrupting its day =p.

In essence talk to your GM about it. RaW, no, you cant really do what you want until lesser planar ally/binding, but theres not necessarily any reason that it's impossible.

Sadly I don't have a familiar so I can't get Improved Familiar. I didn't know Imp's had that ability tho, tis good to know.

Thank you for confirmation that Summon Monster might work awp832, as risky as that is. I was worried the summoned creature would indeed be a token of the original creature & have no memory of summoned encounters.

So I think I will risk a deal with this information, if the DM allows it. But that raises a new question: Who or what is safe-ish to deal with? I can't say the party would appreciate an astradaemon killing us (or just me if we're lucky) in our sleep. I don't suppose there are any moderate evil outsiders out there with interdimensional travel? Ahah... maybe we are best off waiting. Still, I wanna know.

Another member of the party is a mad scientist type, so I was hoping for something along the lines of a disease blessing. Or succubi that could grant us their Profane Gifts. Have them sign contracts to ensure they don't do their 2D6 charisma damage taking it back. Thank you, any ideas are appreciated, even insane ones!

Well, duh, EVIL. Not safe. Good outsiders are not safe either, but they're less likely to be inclined to rip your guts out just for disturbing them..

Talk with the GM. I'd probably start with a Knowledge check to see if any local outsiders are around or accessible.

Note that any 9th level cleric or wizard can probably contact an outsider for you, but you'd have to find one willing to cast the spell and not betray you (again, duh, EVIL), but you might be able to find one who will take your gold and just cast the spell, letting you do the negotiating.

What do you want? How much are you willing to pay for it? How well can you trust the outsider to follow through on their end of the bargain? What will happen if other people find out you're doing this?

1. Acquire scrolls of lesser planar ally (lesser planar binding if you're an arcane caster or a risk-taker) and magic circle against evil. That second scroll is not a luxury: don't attempt anything without invoking a circle first!
2. You'll want to do what you can to pump up your Charisma and your Diplomacy.
3. Prepare a suitable gift (a heap of treasure, a magical item useful to such beings, a helpless screaming victim). This gift is in addition to the actual fee you intend to pay for the benefits you receive - it's a happy little bribe that you're offering the fiend for the privilege of negotiating with it.
4. A Faustian bargain is a situation where the GM will insist on specific wording and exploit the letter of the agreement over the spirit every time. You're voluntarily submitting to an agreement with an embodiment of evil and the GM is not "cheating" or "being unfair" by exploiting every possible loophole to complicate your PC's life.
5. These bargains carry a very high chance of collateral damage. Ideally you should conjure the fiend while you're miles from the rest of the PCs, and for the sake of party unity it's best to specify in the bargain that your travelling companions are not subject to any penalties or requirements that the bargain lays upon you.

Don't forget the scroll of dimensional anchor, either...

I'd be careful with succubi Corwin! They are demons, not devils. Contracts mean little to them. They'll break an agreement in a heartbeat if they feel its in their best interest.

Which ones to choose? Well, its hard because other than the succubi, what they can do is vague, there's some that can cast wish/miracle.

In general I'd go for Devils over demons. Devils will keep their word. They'll keep their word only as far as the letter of the agreement, and utterly disregard the spirit of the agreement, but it's something.

Demons offer power, but the reason they're offering power is not for you, it's for themselves. Every demon you make a deal with thinks they can get the better of you in the long run, and is most likely going to attempt to ensure that is the case.

That said, it can be a really fun rp opportunity, so from that perspective, I encourage you to go for it. If you are just looking to power up your character though, stay far, far away.

Another helpful note - it may be marginally less risky to get what you want from a genie. The marids and shaitan are indifferent toward mortals rather than being actively malevolent: it may take a higher price to get the power you want, but the odds of blowback are considerably lower.

Well my first piece of advoce is to not make deals with demons -- they are terribly bad at keeping a contract... almost as bad as good outsiders (yeah all they want is "one simple little favor" my butt). That said getting a deal with a devil really isn't a problem. We do have means in our humanoid resources department (yes that's resources for helping humanoids) to facilate deals with mortals. Generally the costs of this is absorbed on our end to help ensure goodwill and help you make the best decision based on your individual circumstances.

Generally if you simply contact a devil and let them know you are interested in our services they will pass the word to someone in my department so we can get you the best and fastest service possible.

Use enchantment spells on them? Hypnosis etc??
And if they are immune, some spell or trait to bypass that?

I believe that Ultimate Magic has rules and what the various outsiders like for gifts when attempting a planar ally spell.

As for the soul trade... look kid I get it. You see me and you think, "hey what a great role model I want to be like him when I grow up." It's cute and flattering... but let me save you some heartache.

1. Souls are't really worth that much. I mean really we are going to get at least some of them all the time anyways, and there is all the overhead that goes with it followed by how many there are and the fact that the number of souls keeps increasing and the individual soul jsut isn't worth much. A little known fact is a large number of our soul contracts are charity work. The soul involved just isn't worth the time and magic involved, but hey it makes for good PR and is a... I believe mortals call it a "tax write off". You figure the overhead and plentiful supply and there just isn't much room to profit for a middleman such as yourself.

2. We tend to prefer our own methods and contractors. It means we have all the proper paperwork done, know where the soul is coming from and aren't going to have as many last minute appeals or random paladin's kicking around for some "innocent soul".That some moron stole. And don't get me started on those "soul gems" the daemons peddle... those things aren't worth crap on our end. Little more than cheap knock offs.

3. Let's face it, mortals in the business have a short life span. You risk too much without enough back up. Face it I've been in the business longer than your ancestors have been molded from clay and I'm one of the nicest pursuers of souls you'll find. You start with the "beggars can't be choosers" method and start trading with daemons, demons or hags and you are probably going to end up being the merchandise.

Honestly if you want in this business the safest and best way for you to do it is as an old fashioned cleric. Why knock what works?

Thank you everyone for all the new advice, it inspired several ideas & gave many answers! I kept getting surprised at all the help. Anyway, I'm still convinced I'll try for an early-ish deal. Likely with a devil or genie. Thanks Lincoln for the idea! An efreeti does look tempting, despite it's obvious likelihood to try & pervert any wish I make.

Although the Broker is biased (obviously!) it is sad to hear he values soul gems as near worthless. Because that is indeed what I have to bargain with, the soul (gem) of an ancient red dragon. CR 19. It's a long story, but suffice to say, summon cacoedaemon is very amusing. Happily any evil outsider would likely consider such a thing a delicacy, even if it's listed value is 1-5K in the soul trade.

But yes, I will talk about it to the GM. He's pretty lax about things, tho I'd never expect it to be an easy task.

Not all souls are equal. Perhaps if you were to increase your AIV (afterlife index value)?

Also to consider: how many kilo-nazis do you expect this endeavor will require to get off the ground? What kind of kN return do you expect on this investment? You'll be in the red for awhile.

Ok, first off, what sorta favours are we talking about? Certain types of evil outsiders can do certain things(assassinate, gather info, seduce, etc.) And certain favours are more expensive then others, also, a quick tip: depending on the favour, employ the cheapest outsider possible to do it. Also, leverage can be acquired depending on what you want. For example, asking them to kill a priest of a good god might be cheaper then asking them to kill a cultist who worships a arch devil. Finally, what rank are you planning to employ? Powerful ones, or lesser ones?

Also broker is wrong about one thing, certain souls are far more expensive on the planar market then others, your dragon soul would actually be quite expensive. I mean, if you had a squirrels soul or something, yes he's absolutely right, but a dragon soul? That's pretty expensive, you could broker servitude for the rest of you life with a lesser outsider(lemure, imp, quasit, etc.) with no repurcussions besides. Also, one last tip, broker with a cacodaemon first, and acquire as many expensive soul gems as you can.