Regarding the Martial Maneuvers (Ex) class ability at 1st level. I foresee a whole lot of discussion and FAQ requests on what feats are or are not considered part of the subset of combat feats allowed. I would like to suggest that the wording be changed to combat feats (all) rather than an undefined subset.
-- david
i think it will effect most people's (maybe everyone's) builds... the questions of whether or not Brawlers qualify for weapon specialization, or what level they can take crane riposte, or how many stunning fists they get per day are going to affect a lot of the ways people might use this class...
I created a Brawler for a playtest last night, and wanted to share my impressions:
-I love this concept. I'm so excited that it's here.
-We did 15 point buy. I elected to use a Human because looking at the class, I wanted to make the most of the Martial Maneuvers, and so I wanted to get some prerequisites in place early.
-To that end, my initial concept was going to have a low intelligence, but I bumped it up to 13 so that I could get Combat Expertise. If he wanted to trip or disarm (which I do) without the attacks of opportunity, he'll need Combat Expertise. I actually think that an ability that would allow him to take the Improved (Combat Maneuvers) feats without the prerequisites would be more helpful than the potentially long list of Combat Feats he can get currently.
-I'm concerned about his survivability. Having a high strength was a priority, and then my stats were spread out across Dexterity, Constitution, and that 13 Intelligence. As such, at 1st level: I have 13 Hit points (respectable) but only a 14 AC. My barbarians might also be about this low, but typically have 16 or so hit points - more when they go into a rage. At first level, it doesn't sound like much, but in my experience, that's one likely hit that you can survive before going into negatives. That makes the difference. That being said: I could never imagine this character wearing medium or heavy armor. He's lightly armored and mobile. I'm wondering if a d12 hit die might be out of the question, or perhaps something else to mitigate damage (damage reduction, toughness, etc.)? I initially took Toughness, but swapped it for Power Attack to allow me access to more manuevers
-Being a human with a 13 intelligence, I feel that I have a ton of skills. I have good ones to put them in (Acrobatics, Perception, Sense Motive, etc.) but it just feels like a lot compared with the Fighter, and I don't feel that I need to rely on them as much as the Monk. Additionally, it may just be my concept: but I think that Knowledge (Local) would fit better than Knowledge (Dungeoneering).
-I am both daunted and excited for the level of options with Martial Maneuvers. I would feel even more daunted as a GM trying to figure out how that obscure feat from the newest book is going to effect the adventure Path - let alone the conversations about allowing 3pp material. That being said, I don't feel more or less daunted than a wizard going through potential spells. I'm wondering, though, if there could be a shortened list - emulating a spell book, or combat style that I could choose from. I know that this might require constant updates as new books come out, or to have yet another classification of feats (Brawler feats), but I feel that it might help me to 1) narrow my focus as a player 2) set my DM up for success by allowing him to understand what my options are, and 3) make the class more accessible to people who are a bit newer. The list can still be broad, but I think better defined than "feats that improve your attack, defenses (including Toughness), or Maneuvers.
-I'm ignoring the monk weapons, as they really don't fit my character concept. If I want to throw shuriken: I'll play a monk or a ninja. If this guy is going to throw something, it's going to be a bottle, a bucket, or perhaps a person (friend or foe).
-I'm super excited to play a character concept that both Fighter and Monk wouldn't have done justice to. I'm not trained with anything elegant like a blade, or Crane Style Knife Hand Strike. I punch people in the face, break bottles over their head, and otherwise fight dirty. In fact, I wish there were more elements in the class that exemplified the dirty fighting - other than of course, the Combat Maneuver, which of course I'm going to take. I wonder if I could choose to use impromptu weapons and still deal my unarmed damage to them, but perhaps change up what type of damage I deal (Broken bottle for slashing, Crowbar for bludgeoning/piercing, etc.
I think that's it for now. Excited to report back how he does in an actual playtest.
Regarding the Martial Maneuvers (Ex) class ability at 1st level. I foresee a whole lot of discussion and FAQ requests on what feats are or are not considered part of the subset of combat feats allowed. I would like to suggest that the wording be changed to combat feats (all) rather than an undefined subset.
it looks from the text like part of the reason they didn't do that is because they wanted to include feats that aren't technically combat feats (like toughness- which IMHO seems like a terrible feat to get temporarily in the first place). but yes, it definitely needs to be better defined!
Regarding the Martial Maneuvers (Ex) class ability at 1st level. I foresee a whole lot of discussion and FAQ requests on what feats are or are not considered part of the subset of combat feats allowed. I would like to suggest that the wording be changed to combat feats (all) rather than an undefined subset.it looks from the text like part of the reason they didn't do that is because they wanted to include feats that aren't technically combat feats (like toughness- which IMHO seems like a terrible feat to get temporarily in the first place). but yes, it definitely needs to be better defined!
Agreed with Toughness should not be there either.
I see Improving Defense as Dodge, Mobility, etc. feats since that helps Armor Class. Toughness does not "help defense" in that it DOES NOT make you more difficult to hit, it just makes you "tougher".
I can see the argument:
Player: I am taking Iron Will as my defense minded feat.
GM: That does not help with your defense.
Player: Yes it does, it improves my will save, which defends against xxxx effect.
GM; Argh!
So is Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, and the other "saves" improvement feats considered "improving defense"?
Too much leeway, imo, and not enough definitive.
But, I do live the class !!! In was thinking of trying Champion of Irori (cleric/paladin/monk/coi) for the next AP, starting in March or so, but this looks more like the concept that I had in mind.
-- david
edit: Yea, what Victor Zajic said. Although, having yet another "sub-list" of feats would be annoying, it probably is the better option.
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The examples given (Dodge, Toughness, Blind-Fight, Power Attack, maneuver feats) show quite well what is possible; and by that reckoning I think it is fair to think of feats as more inclusive than exclusive.
But...
What is really a challenge is determining when a feat is conditionally allowed to be selected with Martial Maneuvers. For example: Skill Focus (Sense Motive), I would typically say "no" - however in a Brawler that uses the Snake Style feat tree Skill Focus (Sense Motive) is in fact a very good defensive feat.
Similarly, at higher levels where you can take multiple feats at once: can you take feats that are obviously not defensive/offensive/maneuver-orientated if those feats are a prerequisite for other feats you are selecting that do qualify? (e.g. taking Fast Learner and Improvisation to qualify for Improved Improvisation, to reduce non-proficiency penalty with weapons).
I really think Martial Maneuvers would work better if there was a list of feats you could get with it, instead of any combat feat. It would work more like monk bonus feats, and it would be easier to allow it to ignore pre-request (so that you don't need combat expertise and int 13 for a brawler to get improved trip out of it), and at higher levels you could expand the list, also like a monk's bonus feat list.
So very much this. With this feature, the class no longer requires Combat Expertise to do its thing, it can use Martial Maneuvers to decide to have Improved Trip/Disarm/Whatver without needing intelligence. As is, this is one of the more MAD classes. Requires 13 Int for Combat Expertise, uses Strength to attack and damage, and as a front-line warrior with light armor, it needs both huge dex and huge con to not die.
Also, as a DM, there is nothing more annoying than a character who can, in combat, choose any X from any splatbook. It takes forever for them to decide, and they always have the perfect silver bullet at any moment that I didn't even know existed because that "+10 to hit werewolves with silver rockingchairs on a tuesday in december" feat was in some obscure pathfinder companion book that my local store never even ordered.
I really think Martial Maneuvers would work better if there was a list of feats you could get with it, instead of any combat feat. It would work more like monk bonus feats, and it would be easier to allow it to ignore pre-request (so that you don't need combat expertise and int 13 for a brawler to get improved trip out of it), and at higher levels you could expand the list, also like a monk's bonus feat list.It could be reworded to just grant access to X monk bonus feats chosen on the spot without problems actually, as far as I can tell. You get a +1 from me.
I disagree.
Any set list would generally not be updated with new material that comes out (see monk bonus feats). Having a fixed list (that is not also exhaustive) would plummet the charm of this class ability from something awesome to something mediocre.
Reading the Martial Maneuvers and bonus feats over, I think a list of allowed feats should be made for each.
The Brawler's flurry is fine as is, and follows closely with the Monk's flurry of blows, so it's easy to make a Master of many styles achetype for it.
I can understand why Brawler's strike is different from Ki Strike, but monk is not the only class with Ki strike, so I would like to so some cross compatability with Ki strike.
Awesome blow could work, but requires some big fixes,
1 upgrade the size it can be used targets one or two sizes bigger than the character,
2 make the damage twice the weapon/unarmed damage,
3 increase the distance the target moves based on size difference,
ie, if the creature was her size if move 20ft, if it was smaller if moves 40ft.
More later
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One thing I think should be taken into account is the useability of brawler's flurry with weapons that the brawler is proficient in but aren't monk weapons (short swords, maces, daggers and handaxes for example). There are currently workarounds for monks who seek to use non-monk weapons for their flurries, but these either require multiclassing (Crusader's Flurry feat), an archetype (Sohei) or a particularly weapon enchantment (ki focus/ki intensifying).
Otherwise, what's the point of being proficient in those non-monk weapons in the first place?
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I really like Martial Maneuvers a lot. Brilliant was to add a class feature that is unique but not complex. Seems fairly simple as a class, which I also like. Bonus feats are spaced to not step on fighter toes.
I wish it was less monk weapon focused, but I can see the intent and it would be a pain to have a separate "Brawler weapon" category so I get it.
But I like it. Another good job. On to the next one.
I agree about the monk weapons. If this class is supposed to be a general unarmed fighter, it seems odd to tie it to so many Tian region-specific weapons. Rather than a "brawler weapons group", I'd love to see bonuses for using improvised weapons like beer steins, broken bottles and bar stools.
I agree about the monk weapons. If this class is supposed to be a general unarmed fighter, it seems odd to tie it to so many Tian region-specific weapons. Rather than a "brawler weapons group", I'd love to see bonuses for using improvised weapons like beer steins, broken bottles and bar stools.I really like Martial Maneuvers a lot. Brilliant was to add a class feature that is unique but not complex. Seems fairly simple as a class, which I also like. Bonus feats are spaced to not step on fighter toes.
I wish it was less monk weapon focused, but I can see the intent and it would be a pain to have a separate "Brawler weapon" category so I get it.
But I like it. Another good job. On to the next one.
I think the rationale here is that a dedicated improvised weapons "Barroom Brawler" will be one of the archetypes for the class in the actual ACG.
Rather than monk-weapon group, though, why not take a page out of the brawler (fighter archetype) from Ultimate Combat and use the close weapon group. That seems most appropriate.
The Brawler's flurry is fine as is, and follows closely with the Monk's flurry of blows, so it's easy to make a Master of many styles achetype for it
I, respectfully, disagree:
The brawler gets plenty of feats already (a legacy of his fighter heritage), as such getting even more (pseudo)-feats in the form of brawler's flurry is rather redundant. I'd much rather see something more original, perhaps expanding on the Martial Maneuvers concept.
That, and expanding the class to get rogue-talent-like class options that allow me to customize and distinguish my brawler from the next.
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My pre-build impressions
1) I don't like Martial Maneuvers. I like the idea but a lot of feats qualify for it and even more may or may not qualify for it which is going to lead to a lot of questions. If it were keyed off of style feats only or something like that it would be perfect but "affects or improves her defenses, melee attacks or performing or resisting combat maneuvers" is super broad and a tad to vague for it to not cause tons of questions from my players and flame wars online.
2)Knockout seems a bit off. The way it scales down with each use seems inconsistent with how other abilities work. Also it feels like the ability assumes that you fight a big bad monster first and little minions later, when usually the opposite is true.
Everything else seems great and I cant wait to see how my players build it.
The Brawler's flurry is fine as is, and follows closely with the Monk's flurry of blows, so it's easy to make a Master of many styles achetype for itI, respectfully, disagree:
The brawler gets plenty of feats already (a legacy of his fighter heritage), as such getting even more (pseudo)-feats in the form of brawler's flurry is rather redundant. I'd much rather see something more original, perhaps expanding on the Martial Maneuvers concept.
That, and expanding the class to get rogue-talent-like class options that allow me to customize and distinguish my brawler from the next.
I have to disagree on that since monks do get bonus feats at every 4th level after the second, not as much as the fighter but still close enough.
That and the two-weapon feat chain gets expensive feat and stat wise.
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Agreeing that Awesome Blow is a horrible capstone and that Knockout comes way too late... also, why is it a Supernatural ability?
Speaking of that, I really don't like that an otherwise mundane class gets something like Brawler Strike. I understand why it's included, but if something like fist wrappings or brass knuckles that use unarmed strike damage existed (at least, outside of houserules) this ability would be completely unnecessary and would free up slots for more interesting abilities.
Agreed on knock out. It should be an extraordinary ability
The Brawler's flurry is fine as is, and follows closely with the Monk's flurry of blows, so it's easy to make a Master of many styles achetype for itI, respectfully, disagree:
The brawler gets plenty of feats already (a legacy of his fighter heritage), as such getting even more (pseudo)-feats in the form of brawler's flurry is rather redundant. I'd much rather see something more original, perhaps expanding on the Martial Maneuvers concept.
That, and expanding the class to get rogue-talent-like class options that allow me to customize and distinguish my brawler from the next.
I have to disagree on that since monks do get bonus feats at every 4th level after the second, not as much as the fighter but still close enough.
That and the two-weapon feat chain gets expensive feat and stat wise.
The monk's bonus feats are from a very small list. There are some handy go-to feats in there, but the list is still exceedingly small and doesn't as a rule allow for choosing feats with the character build in mind. A brawler can easily use his bonus feats to get TWF tree, or a style feat chain, or feats that combo with his concept, a monk can get Dodge and Improved Disarm and Improved Critical. The monk's feats are handy, but not integral to his build.
Agreed that the TWF tree is prerequisite intensive, but I'd still rather take those feats manually if I plan on making a Bruce Lee style brawler. But when I make a Zangief style brawler, I do not want to be burdened with the flurry.
Players can stockpile a list of feats that have limited application but are really great in specific circumstances, which threatens to make this OP. I look at it more as causing problems for GMs and the flow of the game, making it harder for the GM to create balanced encounters, as well as upsetting the balance between characters.Martial Maneuvers is going to be a headache with 1) people asking what feats apply and 2) people re writing their character sheets/die rolls as they add feats on the fly.Not any more than people casting buff spells and having to add the bonuses on the fly. Most brawler players are going to look up interesting feats beforehand, make a list, and then apply as needed.
I really like Martial Maneuvers. Lets you use all those situational feats without having to cripple yourself.
In theory I can see where you are coming from, so I did some pondering and I find it hard to come up with plausible examples. Any feats powerful enough to imbalance a particular encounter are also sexy enough to have permanently.
What is nice is the ability to adapt to a situation: many mooks? Expand Power Attack into Cleave and Great Cleave. One big and very mobile boss? Take Improved Vital Strike. I think those examples are kind of the level of impact that the class is designed around.
Perhaps some of the Style feat chains could be imbalancing - but consider also that those typically have high other requirements (like 9+ skill ranks). Those things aren't a given in the average brawler build and thus cannot be used to imbalance arbitrary encounters.
So... can you think of where this would be absurdly powerful?
Like Swashbuckler, this class is pretty MAD and needing 13int for Combat expertise is painful. Please make it a level 1-2 bonus feat.
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He gets those skills because of his int, not the class.
This would be valid if his class didn't require him to have a high Int.
Again, what about being hit in the head= more training for skill points? This isn't a tactician, a noble, a general, or an officer and a gentleman. This is not the very model of a modern major general. This is someone running up to monsters throwing them in a headlock and giving them a noogie.
So thematically, besides "i want them", how does that lend itself to more skill points?
How do you know he's not an officer, a tactician, a general, etc.?
Nothing in his class description says he's limited to being a tavern thug. Nor would that be a valid reason to prevent him from being anything else either.
I would argue that being versatile, agile, and adaptable (a description that actually DOES exist) lends itself well to the ability to know your enemy and deal with unexpected circumstances.
I'm surprised that no one in four pages has posted a build. Is it not appropriate to the discussion of the class to share actual examples of what you can do with it?
I'm working on one for actual play through Reign of Winter. Probably won't get past level 5 by the time the playtest is over, but I'll do a level by level bit.
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The thing that turned me off about Martial Maneuvers is that I couldn't see an in game reason to take and lose feats in a minute increment. What is the actual intent for this ability? I am trying to wrap my head around the explanation of the ability, rather than the mechanics.
However, it gave me inspiration for two character concepts.
Martial Maneuvers #1: An aged or forgetful classically trained warrior that muses, "How did that lesson go again... Ah, there you go!" Then he sort of forgets about it when he doesn't need it anymore...
Martial Maneuvers #2: A fighter that reads opponents' styles, and "copies" some feats that the opponent knows...
Hmm, I guess I need to let these stew a bit...
Like the lore warden, if you want it to be able to do maneuvers, you've got to give up Combat Expertise one way or another. Either throw it in or allow them to bypass.
But like I said, if it's not going to be better, or at least as good as, the lore warden, then why do we even need it?
Is everyone firmly set in favor of the brawler's unarmed damage? What if instead the die damage capped at 2d6, but the crit range also increased? Say it starts at 20/x2, increases to 19-20/x2 at 5th, then 18-20/x2 at 9th, 17-20/x2 at 13th, and 16-20/x2 at 17th (and does not stack with Improved Critical, the keen weapon property, or similar effects)? Would the brawler benefit from this improved synergy with Critical Focus and dependent feats?
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But I'm a bit disappointed in the weapon proficiencies. I don't see why it gets the eastern proficiencies (kama, katana, nunchucks, siangham) but doesn't get similar western ones (throwing axe for example).What about instead something like:
A brawler is proficient with all simple weapons plus the handaxe, light flail, short sword, and spearstaff. When using brawler's flurry, she treats the dagger, dart, handaxe, sickle, light flail, quarterstaff, short sword, and spearstaff as possessing the "monk" special quality. The unshackled monk also treats the kama, nunchaku, siangham, and shuriken as if they used the sickle, light flail, short sword, and dart (respectively) weapon proficiencies and feats.
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...I really don't like that an otherwise mundane class gets something like Brawler Strike. I understand why it's included, but if something like fist wrappings or brass knuckles that use unarmed strike damage existed (at least, outside of houserules) this ability would be completely unnecessary and would free up slots for more interesting abilities.
Perhaps they should instead have something similar to a "Clustered Shots"/scalable Penetrating Strike ability to get through DR?
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My one problem with the class more than anything else is that it didn't address the problem with the monk in the first place.
Monks at all levels have an accuracy problem. This is compounded by three factors. 1. their standard action and AoOs are at 3/4 BAB, 2. Their flurry is at a -2 and 3 cost of magic enhancement bonus. Now a monk is basically a 2 wpn fighter using unarmed and the unarmed damage scales but it lacks the inherent accuracy additions that other melee classes have:
Fighter Weapon Training, bonus feat for weapon focus,
Barbarian Rage
Paladin Smite Evil
Ranger Favored Enemy
Now some of these are highly conditional but in many cases they come into play more frequently than you would think.
Monks lack these options, Brawler only added to fix this in two ways:
Full BAB so their AoOs and Standard actions are more accurate
Bonus feats for Weapon Focus
Unfortunately I can see Brawlers have the same issues as monks at higher levels because they still have to pay double for AoMF (which 1. costs a neck slot, 2. is twice as expensive, 3. in PFS is available much later and never always because of Fame.) Problems with DR (gaining the monk benefits even later)and the accuracy still being in the same place (AoMF, no feature to improve it)
Awesome Blow and the vagueness of the Martial Maneuvers ability has already been addressed. So moving on...
Overall I like the mix of Fighter and Monk. It seems to sacrifice some of the defense and special abilities of the Monk for more combat power from the Fighter. It removes the "all over the place" problem of the Monk for more focus. That's generally a good thing.
I don't understand the MAD arguments. It is absolutely not MAD. You need a good Str and a decent Dex and Con. That's it. If you want Combat Expertise and a 13 Int that's great, but you don't need it any more than a Fighter does. There are a lot of maneuvers that don't require Combat Expertise. With a good Fort save and 1d10 hit die Con is less important for the Brawler than for the Monk or Rogue.
I also don't understand why people would want heavier armor. You can put the Brawling property on light armor. That gives an untyped +2 to hit and damage with the Brawler's primary attack. That is too good to give up. Also look at the total AC armor provides. A mithril chain shirt allows a total of +10 (4 armor, 6 dex), mithril allows +12 (9 armor, 3 dex). By 9th level the brawler will equal the +12, by 13th he will exceed it. You will need a 22 Dex, but a high Dex is it's own reward.
One change I would make would be to switch the Brawler's Strike Adamantine and Alignment. Adamantine should come first, then they can get Alignment at 17th. This is similar to how it only takes a +4 to overcome Adamantine and a +5 to overcome alignment with weapon enchants. The reason it is different for the Monk is because they are aligned with Law. The Brawler isn't aligned with any alignment.
Someone mentioned wanting to make a Captain America type character. That sounds like the perfect idea for an archetype. Also perhaps a Bruiser that sacrifices Brawler's flurry for a two-handed unarmed strike where they can add 1-1/2 times their Str to their unarmed attacks.
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I'm surprised that no one in four pages has posted a build. Is it not appropriate to the discussion of the class to share actual examples of what you can do with it?
..I Posted one..
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Xp: 0
Favored: Brawler
Favored Bonus: +1 Hp
Female Varisian Human Brawler 1
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses: Perception +5
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AC 19 (Touch 12, FF 17)(+2 Dex, +6 Armor, +1 Trait)
Hp: 14 (1d10+3[Con]+1[Favored]
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1;
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Speed: 30 ft (20 ft Armored)
Melee: Unarmed Strike +5 (1d6+4/x2) or Cold Iron Cestus +5 (1d4+4/19-20x2)
Ranged: Shuriken +3 (1d2+4/x2)
SA: Martial Maneuvers (1/day, 1 Minute)
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Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
BAB +1, CMB +5, CMD 17
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike(B), Medium Armor Proficiency(1st), Power Attack(Human)
Skills(3)(4[Base]+1[Human]): Climb[1] +8(+3), Swim[1] +8(+3), Perception[1] +5, Sense Motive[1] +5, Acrobatics[1] +6(+1)(-3 Jumping)
Languages: Common, Varisian
SQ:
Racial: Skilled, Bonus Feat
Traits: Defender of the Society, Serpent Runner(-1 penalty on main hand attacks when dual wielding)
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Carrying Capacity:
Light (0-100); Medium (101-200); Heavy (201-300);
Current Load: 77 lbs (Light)
Weighs: 146 lbs
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============================================================
Combat Gear: (46 lbs)
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Four Mirror Armor (45 lbs)
Cold Iron Cestus (1 lb)
Ammunition: (5 lbs)
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Shuriken [50] (5 lbs)
Magic Gear: (--)
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Consumables: (3 lbs)
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Potion of Cure Light Wounds (--)
Flask of Acid [3] (3 lbs)
Other: (23 lbs)
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Backpack (2 lbs)
Cold Weather Outfit (7 lbs)
Waterskin (Full) (4 lbs)
Bedroll (5 lbs)
Trail Rations [5 days] (5 lbs)
Jewelry: (--)
-----------------------------------------------
Wealth: (--)
-----------------------------------------------
0 pp
5 gp
9 sp
0 cp
Total Coins: 14 (--)
Do note, that THIS brawler was not built in mind for Combat Maneuvers beyond the ones linked to Power Attack or Improved Unarmed Strike - tripping and such she has left to others. This is quite simply a "I'm going to make you taste my fist" build. I do not believe she is PFS Legal, as I built her specifically for my Shattered Star self run - she's using a 25-point build, two traits, Human only, and maximum starting gold.
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I agree about the monk weapons. If this class is supposed to be a general unarmed fighter, it seems odd to tie it to so many Tian region-specific weapons. Rather than a "brawler weapons group", I'd love to see bonuses for using improvised weapons like beer steins, broken bottles and bar stools.I really like Martial Maneuvers a lot. Brilliant was to add a class feature that is unique but not complex. Seems fairly simple as a class, which I also like. Bonus feats are spaced to not step on fighter toes.
I wish it was less monk weapon focused, but I can see the intent and it would be a pain to have a separate "Brawler weapon" category so I get it.
But I like it. Another good job. On to the next one.
I think the rationale here is that a dedicated improvised weapons "Barroom Brawler" will be one of the archetypes for the class in the actual ACG.
Rather than monk-weapon group, though, why not take a page out of the brawler (fighter archetype) from Ultimate Combat and use the close weapon group. That seems most appropriate.
Using the close weapon group sounds perfect to me. It contains a wider mix of Eastern and Western weapons.
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Female human brawler 10
N medium humanoid
Init +4; Senses Perception +13
-=DEFENSE=-
AC 26, touch 20, flat 21
HP 104
Fort 12; Ref 13; Will 8
-=OFFENSE=-
Speed 30ft
Melee unarmed attack +20/+15 (1d10+9 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Melee brawler's flurry +18/+18/+13/+13 (1d10+9 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
-=OTHER=-
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
BAB +10; CMB +16; CMD 31
Feats weapon focus (unarmed), toughness, combat expertise, power attack, combat reflexes, dodge, intimidating prowess, iron will, hammer the gap
Traits reactionary, threatening defender
Favored class brawler
Favored bonus 10 hit points
Languages common, varisian, shoanti
Brawler abilities martial maneuvers 5/day; brawler's flurry (two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting); maneuver training (+2 disarm / +1 grapple); AC bonus +2; brawler strike (magic, cold iron, silver)
Skills
Trained acrobatics 16(10); climb 14(5); escape artist 16(10); intimidate 19(10); perception 13(10); sense motive 13(10); swim 14(5)
Untrained bluff 0; diplomacy 0
Wealth 1000ish gp
* +2 brawling mithril chainshirt (10100)
* +3 cloak of resistance (9000)
* +2 belt of physical perfection (16000)
* +2 amulet of natural armor (8000)
* +2 ring of protection (8000)
* dusty rose prism ioun stone (5000)
* armbands of the brawler (500)
*
Martial Maneuvers
By far the funnest part of the brawler, the Martial Maneuver ability. The core feat selection on Berklyn (and to some extent the skill ranks) ensure a broad range of feats that can be acquired on the fly with martial maneuvers
- complete style trees for Boar Style, Crane Style, Dragon Style, Snake Style, Snapping Turtle Style, and Tiger Style
- Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp
- Improved Sunder/Disarm/Steal/DirtyTrick/Drag/BullRush/etc, Greater [...], [...]
- Cleave, Great Cleave, Cleaving Finish
- Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Rapid Grappler
- Step Up, Following Step, Step-up and Strike
- Catch Off Guard, Throw Anything, Improvised Weapon Mastery
- Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, [...]
Expected DPR
The DPR when using Martial Maneuvers for increased damage output is respectable (exceeding 50 DPR), albeit this comes at a penalty to AC which isn't high to start with. The DPR can easily increase further when using an amulet of mighty fists instead of natural armor, but this goes hand-in-hand with even lower AC.
Using a brawler's flurry vs an AC 24 enemy: = 38.0625
Using Dragon Style: = 48.3
Using Tiger Style and Power Attack (-3 to AC): = 53.8125
Using Combat Expertise and Crane Style (-3 to attack): = 28.9275
Varying AC
AC is perhaps the hardest part to safeguard on a brawler. An unarmored brawler is almost untennable without some tricks. A brawler with light armor is still very vulnerable due to the lack of shields. A brawler of any type needs to think hard whether she uses an amulet of mighty fists or amulet of natural armor.
Using Combat Expertise (-2 attack, +3 dodge): AC 29, touch 23, flat 21
Using Crane Style: AC 31, touch 25, flat 21
Using Snapping Turtle Style: AC 28, touch 22, flat 23
Combining Combat Expertise and Crane Style (-3 attack, +8 dodge) will grant 34 AC; which is quite a lot for level 10; albeit at a big hit to damage output
Limitations
The Martial Maneuvers is a very fun mechanic that opens up the adaptability of the class in combat situations; however any serious use of the ability will have to be limited to around 2 encounters. A "serious" use of the ability at level 10 is using it to gain a full set of feats, for example the Crane Style feat tree to keep alive. Unfortunately that uses up 3 of the 5 uses that the brawler gets in a day (at level 10). A "minor" use, in comparison, is getting just Vital Strike to break through high DR, or just Improved Disarm to make sure the kid doesn't hurt himself.
The problem is not just in the limited number of uses, but also limited time. A 1 minute duration is likely enough for smaller encounters - but many serious or extended encounters can exceed the 1 minute duration. Especially intelligent foes that have no pressing need to engage the brawler immediately can simply wait a minute to have the brawler expend his energies. Stealthy enemies (ninjas!) likewise have no compelling reason reason to fight the brawler in her prime.
Closing Thoughts
There is a challenging interplay of restrictions that vie for attention on the brawler. It isn't easy to push the damage output of the brawler upwards, and its nearly impossible to do so without sacrificing AC. The AC of the brawler is barely middling, which is a problem for a front-line melee specialist. The problem is aggravated by the reduced avenues of acquiring better AC. From the fighter's side, the brawler loses medium/heavy armor as well as shields, from the monk's side the brawler loses Wisdom-based AC. She may or may not lose out the neck slot's amulet of natural armor, if she wants to use that slot for an amulet of mighty fists. She does gain an AC bonus, but it doesn't go very far to compensate the loss of AC sources. This poor AC can be alleviated with certain feat choices, such as the Crane Style feat tree, but this in turn limits the combat presence of the brawler.
The potential of Martial Maneuvers is incredible, it is a very fun mechanic that can allow the brawler to really shine in situations that require the character to adapt. It can temporarily eliminate most short-comings. Unfortunately the number of uses as well as the duration of the ability is very limited, which make the ability only relevant in one or perhaps two encounters a day.
That's a lot of bolding codes there LoreKeeper. Are your fingers hurting?
The limited use of Martial Maneuvers has been a big concern to me as well. I think getting a full line should still only take one use of the ability. Either that or it should last a lot longer. Then it might make up for the lack of AC potential. And giving up that much damage for AC isn't a good thing for a class called "Brawler".
Edit: Also I'm seeing that the lack of an ability that boosts the Brawler's attack is severely hampering the Brawler's ability to freely use power attack as it rightly should be able to. Maybe if we knew if we could take greater weapon focus............! Really the Brawler should have weapon training. Weapon Training Focused on unarmed counts towards basically all combat maneuvers anyway so I see no reason not to give the Brawler a limited weapon training.
That's a lot of bolding codes there LoreKeeper. Are your fingers hurting?
Believe it or not, I have a template for that. So it ends up being easier than it looks :)
My Brawler is almost definitely gonna have to nab feinting flurry to offset the power attack penalty.
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Three things.
1 it's been brought up that the Brawler's bonus feat section say it gains a bonus feat at 2nd level and every two levels there after but the table doesn't reflect that. Which one of those is correct?
Jason has edited the sticky post to indicate the correction.
2 Does the Brawler's flurry allow the Brawler to take two weapon fighting feats such as two weapon rend?
As written, the brawler is treated as having TWF when using brawler's flurry (this may change in later development). So, she could use it as a prereq... but would only be able to use feats from later in the chain when she was using brawler's flurry, as that's the only time she actually has the feat.
3 Shouldn't the Brawler focus more on style feats considering the line that states that the Brawler focuses on "perfecting many styles of brutal unarmed combat."
The brawler already gets 6 bonus combat feats, and has the martial maneuvers ability to temporarily pick up other combat-oriented feats; between those two abilities, a brawler should be able to use at least one style all the time, switching in and out other styles as needed.
1. Do the Brawler levels count as monk levels for the number of stunning fist or elemental fist attempts you get a day?
2. Do the Brawler levels count as fighter levels for the purpose of taking fighter feats such as Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus?
As written, no, but that's something we should specifically address.
Why? Well Lore Warden gets a bonus to CMB on ALL maneuvers, it's a bigger bonus, and it's in ADDITION to their weapon training. Not to mention they can make a knowledge check for another +2 on top of that.
That actually suggests to me that the lore warden is too good; its maneuver master ability gives it +2 on ALL combat maneuver checks and CMD, which is the equivalent of the Improved Bull Rush, Dirty Trick, Disarm, Dragon, Reposition, Overrun, Steal, Sunder, and Trip... just for the cost of armor training 1. (Okay, slightly less than each of those feats because it doesn't make them AOO-free, but still...)
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Update:
* We've made an official update to the sticky post at the top of this thread: brawler levels count as fighter and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. Likewise, a brawler counts as a monk for the purpose of Stunning Fist (which calculates your uses/day differently if you're a monk).
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I'd like to acknowledge the following issues people have brought up (however, I'd still like to hear playtest feedback based on the abilities as printed, without altering based on my comments below):
Acknowledged Points:
* Awesome blow was a capstone added late in the process, and we're not satisfied with it.
* Martial maneuvers is going to be fiddly, and some players will slow down the game hunting for the perfect feat for that round. But this is the Advanced Class Guide, and someone playing this should have superior knowledge of the game that doesn't require spending 10 minutes on his turn paging through all the books. And if the player is taking too long, the GM needs to skip to the next person. As someone else mentioned, a brawler player will probably pick a few favorite feats to use with this ability and stick to those most of the time. The fact that you still need to meet the feat's prereqs means the player can't just grab any sweet feat they find in a new book.
* I can see why people don't like the "Eastern" weapon selection, and we'll be discussing that. I like the suggestion of giving them proficiency in the "close weapons" fighter weapon group (but not just close weapons). Likewise, allowing brawler's flurry to work with close weapons would be interesting.
* Knockout is built similar to a monk's quivering palm, but not fueled by ki, so rather than giving it a specific number of uses per day, the DC gets easier each time you use it.
* I see the point about martial maneuvers potentially being used to gain Iron Will as it "improves defenses." We'll discuss that ("defenses" in this case should be AC and perhaps DR).
* I get that some people don't like a "magical" ability like brawler strike being part of this class, but we need to make unarmed brawlers viable at overcoming DR (just as we do for monks), so it has to stay.
-=OFFENSE=-
Melee unarmed attack +20/+15 (1d10+9 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Melee brawler's flurry +18/+18/+13/+13 (1d10+9 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Dumb question time, but how do you get four attacks on brawler's fury? (sorry if I am being dense).
-- david
-=DEFENSE=-
AC 26, touch 20, flat 21
HP 104
Fort 12; Ref 13; Will 8
It looks like you shorted yourself 1 AC from your Dex. You have a 16 Dex, not 14.
-=OFFENSE=-
Melee unarmed attack +20/+15 (1d10+9 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Melee brawler's flurry +18/+18/+13/+13 (1d10+9 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Dumb question time, but how do you get four attacks on brawler's fury? (sorry if I am being dense).
-- david
Brawler gets Improved Two Weapon Fighting at 8th. So +10/+5 from BAB becomes +8/+8/+3/+3.
Brawler gets Improved Two Weapon Fighting at 8th. So +10/+5 from BAB becomes +8/+8/+3/+3.
-=OFFENSE=-
Melee unarmed attack +20/+15 (1d10+9 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Melee brawler's flurry +18/+18/+13/+13 (1d10+9 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Dumb question time, but how do you get four attacks on brawler's fury? (sorry if I am being dense).
-- david
Ah... I was thinking of Monk Flurry of Blows and didn't pay attention to the feats. Now I get it, thanks,
-- david
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* I get that some people don't like a "magical" ability like brawler strike being part of this class, but we need to make unarmed brawlers viable at overcoming DR (just as we do for monks), so it has to stay.
Not if they're using close weapons, that's the beauty of it. They can use magic/special material brass knuckles, cesti, rope gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, etc... All the things that RAW, no monk would ever touch. And that just scream "Brawler!"
"The brawler inflicts their brawling damage instead of the normal weapon damage when using any close weapon." Give 'em proficiency in those and improvised weapons and simple weapons. Done.
Thank you and thank you.
* I get that some people don't like a "magical" ability like brawler strike being part of this class, but we need to make unarmed brawlers viable at overcoming DR (just as we do for monks), so it has to stay.Not if they're using close weapons, that's the beauty of it. They can use magic/special material brass knuckles, cesti, rope gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, etc... All the things that RAW, no monk would ever touch. And that just scream "Brawler!"
"The brawler inflicts their brawling damage instead of the normal weapon damage when using any close weapon." Give 'em proficiency in those and improvised weapons and simple weapons. Done.
And since they now count as fighters they can just pick up penetrating strike.
Edit: Even better. Run into a creature with an annoying amount of DR. Martial Maneuvers gets you penetrating strike and Greater Penetrating Strike.
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I get that some people don't like a "magical" ability like brawler strike being part of this class, but we need to make unarmed brawlers viable at overcoming DR (just as we do for monks), so it has to stay.
There is another way. Given that magical enhancement already overcomes these DR issues, and AoMF is now clarified as working the same way, I'm not sure it is as much an issue anymore.
But it isn't really a big sweat off my back either way as I think you can fluff the overcoming DR as training rather than mystical.