Pathfinder Player Companion: Dirty Tactics Toolbox (PFRPG)

4.60/5 (based on 5 ratings)
Pathfinder Player Companion: Dirty Tactics Toolbox (PFRPG)
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There are those who fight and die honorably, and there are those with pockets full of dirty tricks who live to brawl another day. Embrace the subversive with Dirty Tactics Toolbox, a player-focused manual filled with loads of deliciously devious tips, tricks, and rules options to ensure that your character never has to face a fair fight. Delve into the art of the ambush, research new poisons, and discover ways to enhance your sneak attacks and dirty trick combat maneuvers. And if none of that suits your sly sensibilities, arm yourself with magic that targets your enemy's jugular or turns her sword into an angry snake. Dirty Tactics Toolbox contains everything you need to gain the upper hand and then exploit the advantage mercilessly. Inside this book, you'll find:

  • Tips for using all manner of poisons, including feats that empower envenomed weapons and infuse magic with toxins, plus details on a bevy of new poisons.
  • General and specific tactics for using sneak attacks, plus new feats for characters who specialize in dealing precision damage.
  • Expanded ideas for using the dirty trick combat maneuver, plus ways to combine combat maneuvers with guile and a new combat style for those who admire the cunning kitsune.
  • Options for characters who worship trickster gods, such as manipulative Asmodeus and chaotic Calistria, plus a wasp familiar for the faithful of the Savored Sting.
  • A wide range of new equipment tricks, including novel uses for boots, cloaks, nets, thieves' tools, and wondrous items, plus new equipment, magic armor and weapons, and spells for your crooked arsenal.

This Pathfinder Player Companion is intended for use with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and the Pathfinder campaign setting, but can easily be incorporated into any fantasy world.

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-763-5

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Player Companion Subscription.

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4.60/5 (based on 5 ratings)

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Good, but not spectacular

3/5

Read my full review on Of Dice and Pen.

Dirty Tactics Toolbox follows in the vein of its predecessor “Toolbox” books: Ranged Tactics Toolbox and Melee Tactics Toolbox. And much like those two other books, I have the same basic issues with it. While it’s a perfectly functional book, there’s not a lot in it that really stands out and is memorable when compared with the vast amount of other options already available in the game. That said, I do think it edges out the previous two books by a small margin by having a few more things that did catch my attention and a few more instances of nicely integrated world flavour.


Tactics Toolbox series keeps getting better

5/5

It started with Melee Tactics Toolbox, then Ranged Tactics Toolbox, now Dirty Tactics Toolbox makes a excellent line turn STELLAR.

When a Player Companion has feat/archetypes/spells that make you want to start a new character JUST TO USE THE OPTIONS, then it is a great one indeed.

A few stand-outs are the Poison spells (a category of spell I thought was previously lacking), Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat (the Boon Companion feat for multiclass rogues and single class slayers), Dirty Fighting feat (as mentioned everywhere, a long waited for alternative to Combat Expertise) and the Monk of the Mantis archetype (monk with sneak attack PLUS options to work with Unchained Monk? Yes Please!!).

And there are a great number of other gems in here (for example the Sapping weapon property and sniping feat of which I forget the exact name).

The only downside is now my expectations for the next Tactics Toolbox are sky high.


A grand success!

5/5

This player companion is to-date my favorite player companion yet. The new format and the new methodology really paid off with this winning design.

The content walks a fine line between too much crunch and too much fluff by having a ton of both and making sure that the fluff options are still good options! The feats and archetypes are rich with character building ideas, setting lore and still great, viable archetypes that stand up well.

Overall, I don't have much to say other than buy this book! Its not just for Rogues, there are plenty of character options for anyone willing to fight a little dirty.


One of the best Player Companions yet

5/5

While I don't want to go into too many details prior to a broader release, the entirety of this book seems designed to enable builds and approaches that have been conventionally undersupported in the Pathfinder ruleset, and it accomplishes its goal admirably. I think this is one of the best purchases I've made in this line, and strongly suggest it for anyone considering playing a character following one of the concepts it focuses on: poison, sniping and sneak attack, dirty tricks, and ambush/surprise rounds.

I'm particularly fond of the additional sniping support, which has been direly needed for some time. The Dirty Fighting combat feat has the potential to steal the show, though, and may become a staple of various combat maneuver builds for years to come. Like most of the options in this book, it's probably not going to be overpowered; it just makes a previously hard-to-build concept be more effective and efficient.


Wily Options for Everyone

5/5

(I'll be intentionally vague on specific items, feats, and spells until the release date)

With Dirty Tactics Toolbox, Paizo has redeemed a number of design choices that arbitrarily limit those who favor stealthy, indirect, or clever approaches over more traditional "hit it with a big sword/spell" tactics. Dirty Tactics has options for virtually everyone, and a lot of the feats, spells, and abilities are less about power creep and more about bringing the less viable options into parity with the default "tetori monk, ragelancepouncebarian, archery ranger" tropes.

Not surprisingly, The book spends significant page count on the Dirty Trick combat maneuver, providing options to make it significantly more viable and interesting. There's even a feat for Swashbucklers (and Amateur Swashbucklers) that makes Dirty Trick pretty good starting from level 1.

Additional attention and love is given to poisoners - casters and mundanes alike - and all are given options to make poisioning... well, less bad. I still think Paizo's unreasonably concerned about making poisoning a valid tactic, but at least now there are a number of options that make poisoning an acceptable, if not optimized choice.

Stealth options are also present in the book, with feats that give rogues a reason to want to crit on their sneak attacks as well as making sniping a more viable strategy.

There are several creative and interesting spells as well. Nothing's too spectacular or "OMG Overpowered", but a number of options continue the book's general theme of making some less-viable character concepts more viable.

As a penultimate note, one particular feat solves a whole host of commonly brought up issues with combat maneuvers. Without getting too detailed, it satisfies many of the more silly prerequisites for combat maneuver feats, as well as lessens the penalty for being untrained in a given combat maneuver. Love the feat, hoping this gets made PFS legal.

Finally, I'd like to call out the Equipment Trick section for providing some genuinely useful equipment tricks - looking at you, Cape and Thieves' Tools. The existing equipment tricks were nothing to write home about, but these you could easily incorporate into any character that would fit the theme.

I heartily recommend this book to anyone who loves making stealth checks, ambushes, combat maneuvers, or who enjoys casting subtle spells. Get this book and help win the table focus back from the boring two-handed strength based types!


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Volvo: Boxy but good

Contributor

Gisher wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Shadow Jumper's Tunic: Good for anyone, but better for a Shadowdancer. More love for Prestige Classes.
I practically begged my fellow designers to try to sneak in some prestige class support as an on-theme experiment. Of the list, the only one that I wrote was the ranged chicanery equipment trick. My hope is that the options that made it in will get enough love that customers will be open to more prestige class support in the future, because currently that isn't a very nested area. In 3PP, there's a strong generalization among game designers that prestige class content won't sell to players, so I was curious to see if that would hold true if Paizo published some support. The comments I've seen so far have been interesting.
Thanks for this!

Don't thank me, Andrew Marlowe wrote it!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Gisher wrote:
Thanks for this!
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Don't thank me, Andrew Marlowe wrote it!

Alex thanks for the nod, but your suggestion to include prestige class support was a good one and I'm thrilled it seems to have payed off.


Locke1520 wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Thanks for this!
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Don't thank me, Andrew Marlowe wrote it!

Alex thanks for the nod, but your suggestion to include prestige class support was a good one and I'm thrilled it seems to have payed off.

Yes, that was what I was trying (unsuccessfully) to say. But help for Shadowdancers is great. Especially with Unchained Rogues as an option. :)

I think the nudge toward making the CRB prestige class designs workable may have carried over to Heroes of the Streets. I hear that it has a functional "Arcane Archer" Magus archetype. I don't think there was any way to "patch" that one the way you could with the Arcane Trickster.

Contributor

Gisher wrote:
I think the nudge toward making the CRB prestige class designs workable may have carried over to Heroes of the Streets. I hear that it has a functional "Arcane Archer" Magus archetype. I don't think there was any way to "patch" that one the way you could with the Arcane Trickster.

Yes and no. Owen's wanted a functional bow-magus to be in the game for some time now; I think that it functions as arcane archer support is a happy coincidence for him. (We talked shop about it at either PaizoCon or GenCon. I can't remember which.)

But as long as people continue to react positively to it (and as long as I keep getting Paizo writing credits and allows them to live through development) I'll continue to do what I can to support prestige classes. Even if its just a small nudge here or a neat feat there. :-)


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Gisher wrote:
I think the nudge toward making the CRB prestige class designs workable may have carried over to Heroes of the Streets. I hear that it has a functional "Arcane Archer" Magus archetype. I don't think there was any way to "patch" that one the way you could with the Arcane Trickster.
Yes and no. Owen's wanted a functional bow-magus to be in the game for some time now; I think that it functions as arcane archer support is a happy coincidence for him. (We talked shop about it at either PaizoCon or GenCon. I can't remember which.)

Hmmm. I think you are suggesting that this could be a good class to transition to the Arcane Archer prestige class. A similar build is possible with a Myrmidarch, but it is kind of an awkward fit. Now I am even more intrigued by the Eldritch Archer.

Alexander Augunas wrote:
But as long as people continue to react positively to it (and as long as I keep getting Paizo writing credits and allows them to live through development) I'll continue to do what I can to support prestige classes. Even if its just a small nudge here or a neat feat there. :-)

Great! I know that I'm not the only one who would love to get more use out of the Prestige Classes chapter of the CRB.


A certain podcast critiqued the lack of a color boarder on many of the pages, but I have to say that I really like the cleaner look. Also, I sometimes like to print out individual pages of the PDFs to keep with my PFS characters, and this style will use less ink and definitely look better when printed in black and white.

Scarab Sages Developer

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Certainly part of the design goal of the eldritch archer is to allow a bow-armed martial-focused spell caster beginning at 1st level (as the standard magus allows with melee weapons), without invalidating the arcane archer PrC (as the magus doesn't invalidate the eldritch knight).


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
(as the magus doesn't invalidate the eldritch knight).

spock eyebrow

Scarab Sages Developer

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
(as the magus doesn't invalidate the eldritch knight).
spock eyebrow

The eldritch knight has a greater BAB, can be used with a range of class combinations, has greater spellcasting if you come into it as a 9-level caster (a fighter 1/wizard 5/ek 5, for example, has 5th level spells, a 10th level magus just has 4th), and if you really want to you can take it as a single-class magus just to boost your bab.

There are lots of reasons not to choose to play the ftr/wiz/ek, but it still does things a magus of the same level can't.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

EK is pretty much the only way to get BAB 16+ (four attacks) and 9th level arcane spells. Magus doesn't get either of those.

Shadow Lodge

Or need them.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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I really hope the majority of this book gets PFS-legalized. There is so much good stuff here!

In particular, I really like the Admodean Advocate cleric archetype. It screams flavor! (And remember that clerics of Asmodeus *are* legal in PFS as long as they are Lawful Neutral.)


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
(as the magus doesn't invalidate the eldritch knight).
spock eyebrow

The eldritch knight has a greater BAB, can be used with a range of class combinations, has greater spellcasting if you come into it as a 9-level caster (a fighter 1/wizard 5/ek 5, for example, has 5th level spells, a 10th level magus just has 4th), and if you really want to you can take it as a single-class magus just to boost your bab.

There are lots of reasons not to choose to play the ftr/wiz/ek, but it still does things a magus of the same level can't.

Before the magus came out I'd seen a fair bit of them. Afterwards.. not so much. Extra BAB is nice and all but the action economy is absurdly better on a magus. An EK can both fight and cast but there aren't a lot of opportunities to do both in a round. The magus manages to combine them.

They have a smaller variety of weapons but that list includes the best one for them. (They had their own pew reserved in the temple of saranrae until fencing grace...)

Scarab Sages Developer

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I've actually seen some devastating magus 7/eldritch knight x builds. It keeps you in medium armor, but you can gain additional magus arcane with feats if you need them and end up with a lot more bab and some more hp. And while m7/ek 10 is only a concern in high level campaigns, combining spell combat, spell strike, and spell critical is amazing. :)


I'm unable to properly link due to mobile, but how does dirty fighter, orc archetype, level 13 ability work with kitsune tricks?


They look like they do the same thing so probably wouldn't stack.

Scarab Sages Developer

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For the curious, this has now been added to the Additional Resources section of PFS.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
For the curious, this has now been added to the Additional Resources section of PFS.

I am curious, so thanks for the heads up. :)

Edit: It looks like my favorite stuff was approved. I'm pleasantly surprised.


awwww... too late for the con though. The party probably appreciates the iron will though...


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
For the curious, this has now been added to the Additional Resources section of PFS.

"and Wasp Familiar feats are not legal for play"

Aww :(


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
djones wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
For the curious, this has now been added to the Additional Resources section of PFS.

"and Wasp Familiar feats are not legal for play"

Aww :(

That is no surprise if you think about it.

While it is an absolutely awesome and flavorfull feat, it gives you a familiar with a +4 initiative boost for the price of one feat. Compared to all other options, that is a bit too cheap and powerful.

There might be a chance this appears on some boons in the future though.


There are already familiars that give +4 for no feat at all


djones wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
For the curious, this has now been added to the Additional Resources section of PFS.

"and Wasp Familiar feats are not legal for play"

Aww :(

This just makes me very happy I don't play PFS.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
David Neilson wrote:

There are already familiars that give +4 for no feat at all

They still require you to have the familiar class feature. This one gives you the class feature, plus just about the best (non-Improved) familiar possible, for the cost of one feat.

The Familiar Bond line takes three feats to accomplish the same thing - and the scorpion can't even fly.

So, I'm sad it didn't make it... but not terribly surprised, in retrospect.


Kalindlara, did you ever get a response for your "Awareness" question?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Scott Romanowski wrote:
Kalindlara, did you ever get a response for your "Awareness" question?

Nope. I'm pretty sure it just means Alertness, and Hero Lab seems to be in agreement, but... it'd be nice to have confirmation. ^_^


Page 2 says "Rogues are the quintessential dirty fighters, and for good reason: their sneak attacks can be deadly, and they can acquire the poison use class feature by selecting the appropriate rogue talent."

My question is... which rogue talent is that? The only one I've found so far is an advanced rogue talent from Rogue Glory by Drop Dead Studios. Since the DTT is by Paizo, I can't imagine they're referring to a third-party product, so I must be missing something. Can anyone point me to what it is?

(Asked on Facebook's Pathfinder RPG group, but I figure I might get a better answer here.)

Contributor

Keldin wrote:

Page 2 says "Rogues are the quintessential dirty fighters, and for good reason: their sneak attacks can be deadly, and they can acquire the poison use class feature by selecting the appropriate rogue talent."

My question is... which rogue talent is that? The only one I've found so far is an advanced rogue talent from Rogue Glory by Drop Dead Studios. Since the DTT is by Paizo, I can't imagine they're referring to a third-party product, so I must be missing something. Can anyone point me to what it is?

(Asked on Facebook's Pathfinder RPG group, but I figure I might get a better answer here.)

Seems like an error to me, as you're correct; rogues can't take poison use as a rogue talent. (Only slayers can.) Poison use is sort of unfairly tied up in the fact that the game currently balances it against trapfinding, and two separate archetypes (the poisoner and the ninja alternate class) grant it as a feature.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Poison use is sort of unfairly tied up in the fact that the game currently balances it against trapfinding, and two separate archetypes (the poisoner and the ninja alternate class) grant it as a feature.

The spy archetype also grants it, but at 3rd level. Unfortunately, this character is in an urban campaign, limited to core rules for classes (but not archetypes or anything else), and is the only 'sneaky' character in a balanced party. So, I need to keep trapfinding and can't take any archetypes that replace it. Which is the reason why I was looking for whatever rogue talent was being referred to. Poison isn't a *great* thing in-game, but it fits the character concept. I guess I'll just have to stick with assassin (if the DM removes the evil aspects of it).

Contributor

Keldin wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Poison use is sort of unfairly tied up in the fact that the game currently balances it against trapfinding, and two separate archetypes (the poisoner and the ninja alternate class) grant it as a feature.
The spy archetype also grants it, but at 3rd level. Unfortunately, this character is in an urban campaign, limited to core rules for classes (but not archetypes or anything else), and is the only 'sneaky' character in a balanced party. So, I need to keep trapfinding and can't take any archetypes that replace it. Which is the reason why I was looking for whatever rogue talent was being referred to. Poison isn't a *great* thing in-game, but it fits the character concept. I guess I'll just have to stick with assassin (if the DM removes the evil aspects of it).

Ask your GM if you can take Poison Use as a rogue talent. You never know; she might say yes!

Shadow Lodge

Can someone help me understand what Befuddling Initiative is even supposed to do?

Core Rule Book, Page 178 wrote:
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.
Core Rule Book wrote:
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.
Dirty Tactics Toolbox wrote:
You treat each opponent that begins a surprise round flat-footed as being flat-footed until its action in the first full round of combat, even if it acts on the surprise round.

So basically this feat duplicates a rule from the CRB that already exists?


The way I see it is this:

Normally, your opponents FF condition is removed as soon as she acts.

With Befuddling Initiative three bonuses occur:

1. You LOSE initiative and your opponent doesn't get to act in the surprise round. In this scenario, your opponent is FF to your surprise round attack AND your first round attack even though she went before you in the first normal round (and normally should have the FF condition removed as soon as she acts).

2. You WIN initiative and your opponent acts in the surprise round, but remains FF until the opponent gets to act in the first round of combat. In this scenario, you get your surprise round attack AND full attack from the first round against a FF opponent.

3. You LOSE initiative and your opponent acts in the surprise round, but remains FF until the opponent gets to act in the first round of combat. In this scenario, your opponent is STILL FF to your surprise round attack even though she went before you (and normally should have the FF condition removed as soon as she acts).

Contributor

CanisDirus wrote:

Can someone help me understand what Befuddling Initiative is even supposed to do?

Core Rule Book, Page 178 wrote:
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.
Core Rule Book wrote:
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.
Dirty Tactics Toolbox wrote:
You treat each opponent that begins a surprise round flat-footed as being flat-footed until its action in the first full round of combat, even if it acts on the surprise round.

So basically this feat duplicates a rule from the CRB that already exists?

Mythraine is correct.

Essentially, if you act in the surprise round and lose initiative to one or more opponents, those opponents that acted before you are no longer flat-footed against any attacks that you make against them in that same surprise round.

With Befuddling Initiative, your opponents are ALWAYS flat-footed against your attacks during a surprise round, even if they've acted before you. Essentially, this means that a rogue can still sneak attack an opponent during a surprise round regardless of when she acts during that surprise round. (Since sneak attack is the big ability that cares about the flat-footed condition.)

Shadow Lodge

Mythraine wrote:

The way I see it is this:

Normally, your opponents FF condition is removed as soon as she acts.

Except that's apparently not what the CRB says.

Alexander Augunas wrote:


With Befuddling Initiative, your opponents are ALWAYS flat-footed against your attacks during a surprise round, even if they've acted before you. Essentially, this means that a rogue can still sneak attack an opponent during a surprise round regardless of when she acts during that surprise round. (Since sneak attack is the big ability that cares about the flat-footed condition.)

Again, the CRB seems to be pretty clear that you're ALWAYS flat-footed until your first turn in a regular round, and then goes on to fairly clearly state that the surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.

Hence my confusion.

Liberty's Edge

CanisDirus wrote:
Mythraine wrote:

The way I see it is this:

Normally, your opponents FF condition is removed as soon as she acts.

Except that's apparently not what the CRB says.

Alexander Augunas wrote:


With Befuddling Initiative, your opponents are ALWAYS flat-footed against your attacks during a surprise round, even if they've acted before you. Essentially, this means that a rogue can still sneak attack an opponent during a surprise round regardless of when she acts during that surprise round. (Since sneak attack is the big ability that cares about the flat-footed condition.)

Again, the CRB seems to be pretty clear that you're ALWAYS flat-footed until your first turn in a regular round, and then goes on to fairly clearly state that the surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.

Hence my confusion.

That is an interesting, and not necessarily wrong, interpretation. I have never seen it run that way. It has always been run, in my experience, that as soon you act, either in the surprise round or later, you are no longer flat footed.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Ask your GM if you can take Poison Use as a rogue talent. You never know; she might say yes!

'cause that's too easy/makes too much sense! Heh.

Actually, I found another quote when I settled down to read the DTT. My initial quote was from the 'focus characters' section just after the table of contents. Page 6 (Contact and Injury Poisons) says, in the Advanced Tactics section (bottom of the first column):

Rogues and slayers have the option to gain poison use through rogue and slayer talents, respectively.

It IS true that Slayers have access to Poison Use as a Slayer Talent, but that's not the case for Rogues. Rogues don't even have access to the Slayer Talent list (like they do for ninja tricks), which is another thing that doesn't make sense to me, seeing as rogue is one of the slayer's 'parent' classes (and slayers DO have access to the rogue talent list). But I asked about that on the ACG discussion thread.

I know you're one of the authors, Alexander. I'm just wondering who authored those two comments, because maybe they can point me to what I'm missing.

Scarab Sages Developer

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I authored them. They were going to be true, but turned out not to be, and I failed to revise them.
They may be true someday in the future, which is far from perfect, but all I can manage at the moment.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

They were going to be true, but turned out not to be, and I failed to revise them.

They may be true someday in the future, which is far from perfect, but all I can manage at the moment.

Eh, nothing in life is perfect. Though NOW I'm curious how it was going to be originally implemented, and why it was changed. But that's just me trying to learn a bit about the process and all that.


I've noticed that most Player Companion's of late have been good about sharing new spells with some of the occult/psychic classes, but none of the spells in this one are usable by any of those new classes. Was this intentional? Several of the spells seem appropriate for a Mesmerist, and a couple of a Psychic, at the very least.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Dirty Tactics Toolbox came out right after Occult Adventures. My guess is that the people developing the two worked separately and there wasn't time between the OA release and the DTT release to retrofit occult material into this book.


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I believe that's correct, that a lot of the Player's Companion material is generally done by freelancers, and at the time these were being worked on they didn't have a copy of the finished product; I believe it was said Occult Origins was the first Player's Companion where at the time freelancers were working on it, they had access to the completed occult classes.


Makes sense, but is unfortunate. I guess some of them are pretty easy to houserule for Psychic and Mesmerist. I have a harder time figuring out a theme for Spiritualist, Occultist, and Medium spells.

Scarab Sages Developer

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This sort of thing is never at the feet of freelancers. Even if they don't have access to such material (and in this case they didn't), as the developer going back over spells and making sure they are given to the classes I think makes sense for them is literally part of my job as developer.

I keep a list of all the spell lists, what classes get them, if they are arcane, divine, or psychic, and what spell levels they cover. It helps me make sure I don't forget that bloodragers and shamans have their own spell lists, for example, or that clerics, oracles, and warpriests all share the cleric spell list, but antipaladins, inquisitors, and paladins have their own.

In this case I had to make a decision well after the freelancers were done, but well before Occult Adventures was in print, about whether to try to add occult classes to the spell level description. Some book has to be the first book to do so, and while ideally it'd be this one, given the material and circumstance I had to work with, I decided to push it back one more book rather than risk giving classes spells they shouldn't have.

I make adjustments to what classes freelancers give spells to all the time. Some freelancers are great about that, while others design awesome spells, but tend to just assign them to a single class. Having a unifying vision that's in tune with what the other developers are also doing about what a class spell list should look like is exactly the kind of thing a developer needs to be good at, and one of the reasons Paizo uses developers rather than just passing all freelance turnovers directly to the editors. They already have enough to do. :)


Keldin wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Ask your GM if you can take Poison Use as a rogue talent. You never know; she might say yes!
'cause that's too easy/makes too much sense! Heh.

I do believe "Blood of Shadows" offers Poison Use to Rogues as a talent now.


Barachiel Shina wrote:
Keldin wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Ask your GM if you can take Poison Use as a rogue talent. You never know; she might say yes!
'cause that's too easy/makes too much sense! Heh.
I do believe "Blood of Shadows" offers Poison Use to Rogues as a talent now.

Yep, looking at it right now. It's under the Fetchling section, but it's open to everyone. And it only took Paizo seven years to publish it in a non-core book!


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

This sort of thing is never at the feet of freelancers. Even if they don't have access to such material (and in this case they didn't), as the developer going back over spells and making sure they are given to the classes I think makes sense for them is literally part of my job as developer.

I keep a list of all the spell lists, what classes get them, if they are arcane, divine, or psychic, and what spell levels they cover. It helps me make sure I don't forget that bloodragers and shamans have their own spell lists, for example, or that clerics, oracles, and warpriests all share the cleric spell list, but antipaladins, inquisitors, and paladins have their own.

In this case I had to make a decision well after the freelancers were done, but well before Occult Adventures was in print, about whether to try to add occult classes to the spell level description. Some book has to be the first book to do so, and while ideally it'd be this one, given the material and circumstance I had to work with, I decided to push it back one more book rather than risk giving classes spells they shouldn't have.

I make adjustments to what classes freelancers give spells to all the time. Some freelancers are great about that, while others design awesome spells, but tend to just assign them to a single class. Having a unifying vision that's in tune with what the other developers are also doing about what a class spell list should look like is exactly the kind of thing a developer needs to be good at, and one of the reasons Paizo uses developers rather than just passing all freelance turnovers directly to the editors. They already have enough to do. :)

Interesting insight. Do you have general rules or notes on what spells fit well into what lists? Or do you spend more time looking at what spells a class already has?

I was have a discussion about Mesmerist and the Enigma archetype and it came up that the spell Sense Vitals would be very nice on the class.
In your opinion, would such a spell be appropriate? I don't know if there is hesitation on adding damage-buff spells to the class. It being on the Bard list and being a divination spell makes me think it would fit well, seeing how the class shares a lot of divination spells with the Bard.


Yeah, Sense Vitals heads the list of spells from this volume that I'd like to have seen considered for inclusion on some psychic caster lists.


I really wish the people who submit reviews would come back down to Earth a bit. I appreciate them taking the time and resources to acquire the books for review, but these reviews for the Companion splat books are out of control. Singing the highest praises and gushing about how amazing it is, is just such an over the top reaction. Yes I like the book too, but I'm not planning on having children with it! ;)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

... you necroed a product thread to complain about people voicing their like of products in the line?

Okay...

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