|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's also worth noting that Dabbler's analysis of some of the monk elements is questionable at best. For example, calling the new flurry "better against high AC opponents and worse against low AC" is just flat-out wrong from level 1-7 and 11-14. It's arguable the rest of the time (an extra attack at -7 doesn't impress me much), but the math doesn't support his statement even slightly over literally 11 out of a character's total 20 levels.The Core Monk's flurry generated more attack rolls than the Unchained Monk
...from level 8-10 and 15-20. That's it. 1-7 and 11-14, the Unchained monk has equal numbers of attacks (arguably more at level 3) at higher bonuses, so it is superior in every way. Dabbler did his math wrong, and it's coloring not only his conclusions but others' as well.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Especially when Pathfinder Society and it's "NO HOUSE RULES!" policy is such a predominant force in the gaming community, it only further reinforces the idea that house rules are bad and that if you use them, you are bad too.>implying that PFS isn't just organized house-rules.
Most of what PFS does wouldn't fly at a lot of tables.
Doesn't matter. PFS is a huge part of Pathfinder, whether or not it's a bunch of house rules doesn't matter because it is published by Paizo and PFS' aim is to limit table variation, house rules and changes beyond what PFS already incorporates.
Really looking forward to seeing the Unchained monk.
Also, thank you guys for considering some of the "number shiftiness" in designs, and working to streamline it out.
From what's being said, I'm curious about the barbarian. That is, I've some concern on how Unchained barb will work with future content--and will it require adjusting old content, and if so, how much?
|
Especially when Pathfinder Society and it's "NO HOUSE RULES!" policy is such a predominant force in the gaming community, it only further reinforces the idea that house rules are bad and that if you use them, you are bad too.>implying that PFS isn't just organized house-rules.
Most of what PFS does wouldn't fly at a lot of tables.
I agree, PFS allows way more material and classes than the vast majority of home games.
Not allowing "house rules" and having to run the scenarios as written, is actually there to protect the players from killer GMs and to protect other players from getting marginalized or subjected to certain behaviors.And I personally know of no PFS GM who doesn't have a home game with house rules.
For some non-monk stuff, anybody care to spoil some of the Eidolon outsider unique abilities?
|
|
I'm curious if anyone has an opinion on the action system and removal of iterative attacks? I like getting away from the "stand and full attack" gameplay that happens level 6+, but I'm a terrible judge of concepts.
What I found interesting about it - assuming you're talking about the "acts" system and not the one-roll system - is that, rather than removing iterative attacks, it actually made them accessible from level 1, if I'm reading it right. (I admit I might not have been. I skimmed that section a lot more than some of the others, and I might need correction.)
It's also worth noting that Dabbler's analysis of some of the monk elements is questionable at best. For example, calling the new flurry "better against high AC opponents and worse against low AC" is just flat-out wrong from level 1-7 and 11-14. It's arguable the rest of the time (an extra attack at -7 doesn't impress me much), but the math doesn't support his statement even slightly over literally 11 out of a character's total 20 levels.The Core Monk's flurry generated more attack rolls than the Unchained Monk...from level 8-10 and 15-20. That's it. 1-7 and 11-14, the Unchained monk has equal numbers of attacks (arguably more at level 3) at higher bonuses, so it is superior in every way. Dabbler did his math wrong, and it's coloring not only his conclusions but others' as well.
And don't forget that it always has equal or more attacks when using elbow smash, even at 8-10 and 15-20.
Making ki scale by full level and start at level 1 sounds like a cool option! Though it might attract too many dips...Hey, maybe we can create an ad-hoc super-ki Unchained archetype. Maybe in exchange for the extra ki, it gains flurry at the level where you would normally gain ki. However, it gains ki powers every single level (!) and loses style strikes and maybe one more thing.To the talk about the Monk, I don't have the book yet but in a scenario where we have a book that is nothing but house rules to the point where some of them don't necessarily need to work along side each other I don't see the difficulty in just adding a good Will save. I won't likely because it sounds like there are enough save related powers that can be picked up but its easy to do. Or better yet, why not just make ki scale by level rather than 1/2 level. We have a new pool of points that apparently can be fighter only, fighter gets it for free, free for everyone or everyone can access it via feat, if that pool is so modular whats to stop the GM from just giving Monks Ki at first level and frontloading a lot more ki? We have an entire book that says 'change the game, or don't, whatever you want' but we're too scared to change something in said book that is as simple as moving a number?
Also if a book full of house rules are on the table, why not third party? Legendary Games Way of Ki solved a lot of core monk problems and even then I allowed Ki to for monks to go up by level than 1/2 level because I have three other classes that get ki early and I wanted Ki to be Monk's schtick.
Actually what I may wind up doing is what I already do.
I use Way of Ki which has a feat that grants a one point ki pool and an ability to work with. I give it to Monk for free at first level and at level 4 when he does gain a ki pool it simply turns into the Extra Ki feat. I also houserule that Ki feats grant grant 1 bonus ki point this grants 3 bonus ki points. Alternatively with Unchained Monks out I'll probably just grant the ki pool at 1 point per level and then at 4th level (the enlightenment level) it becomes 1 per level+Wis. Either way Way of Ki has a feat that allows you to mess with your Will saves using ki points so I have no interest in the will save argument.
Please someone kindly relate to me the Stamina Powers of:
Monkey Style
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Combat Expertise
Horse Master
Stunning FistBecause curiosity.
Sorry so slow
Monkey Style – Use 2 stamina points when using this style to stand up as a Swift without having to make Acrobatics check.
Dodge – When you move up to your speed, you can spend stamina pts up to your dex bonus; gain an increase to the dodge bonus of half the stamina points you spent.
Mobility – Dodge bonus to AC from Dodge feat combat trick is doubled against AoO provoked by movement; if you don’t have Dodge you can still use the combat trick.
Spring Attack – Spend 5 stamina points to use this as a standard instead of full-round action.
Combat Expertise – Don’t have to meet the intelligence prereq, but only gain benefits as long as you have 1 point in stamina pool. If you spend points to up your attack roll with Combat Stamina benefit you can ignore the CE penalty equal to the number of points you spent.
Horse Master – Spent 5 stamina points to give mount HP equal to your level for one minute.
Stunning Fist – Spend 5 stamina points and you can declare you used Stunning Fist after you’ve hit with unarmed strike.
For some non-monk stuff, anybody care to spoil some of the Eidolon outsider unique abilities?Theres about 5 pages of subtypes, so its a little hard to list them all, but basically every eidolon type gains a lot of the inherent abilities of the subtypes. Good outsiders get DR/evil, if the subtype has energy/condition immunities you pick up some of them, special move modes, etc. But I will list the capstones for each.
** spoiler omitted **
Ooh, cool! Thanks. Wish Protean got its shape change earlier, but I'm glad it does get it.
|
RE: Action Economy
My quick take on it is that it normalizes the number of attacks for the whole table. Even the low end mook can now move and attack twice. Or even attack, move, then attack again. And the high end martial is limited to three attacks if they standstill. (no five foot step)
So the level 16+ full BAB fighter loses one iterative attack.
Overall, I would still want to tweak it a bit, like maybe adding an ability/feat to take a 5-foot step as part of simple attack. And change vital strike and haste.
|
|
I've heard it referenced, but could someone specify what exactly elbow smash and flying kick are/do? Thanks
Elbow smash and flying kick are two of the new "style strikes," gained 1/4 levels starting at 5th. You can use one style strike per flurry (and only during a flurry) until 15th level, where you can use two per flurry but only one per attack.
Elbow smash lets you add another attack at -5 to your full attack bonus if you hit with the first attack, but the extra attack only deals nonlethal damage.
Flying kick lets you move a distance equal to the bonus from your fast movement ability (so 10 ft at 5th, 20 at 6th, etc.) before making an attack during your flurry, giving you a kind of mini-pounce.
It's an old horse, but is there anything in there for supporting 4 skill points/level as a minimum? Or what's this I'm hearing about background skills?
Trying to answer some of the non-monk questions posted.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
On the Barbarian and Reckless abandon, Reckless Abandon is a stance rage power to so won't stack as you can only have 1 stance active at time.
RE: Action Economy
My quick take on it is that it normalizes the number of attacks for the whole table. Even the low end mook can now move and attack twice. Or even attack, move, then attack again. And the high end martial is limited to three attacks if they standstill. (no five foot step)
So the level 16+ full BAB fighter loses one iterative attack.
Overall, I would still want to tweak it a bit, like maybe adding an ability/feat to take a 5-foot step as part of simple attack. And change vital strike and haste.
One thing that made me wonder; is there anything that compensates for the loss of damage at late levels or mitigates the large amount of damage at early levels in that system?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Especially when Pathfinder Society and it's "NO HOUSE RULES!" policy is such a predominant force in the gaming community, it only further reinforces the idea that house rules are bad and that if you use them, you are bad too.>implying that PFS isn't just organized house-rules.
Most of what PFS does wouldn't fly at a lot of tables.
I agree, PFS allows way more material and classes than the vast majority of home games.
Not allowing "house rules" and having to run the scenarios as written, is actually there to protect the players from killer GMs and to protect other players from getting marginalized or subjected to certain behaviors.And I personally know of no PFS GM who doesn't have a home game with house rules.
The ones I've played with typically have looser home game rules than PFS (more races, feats, items, drawbacks), but maybe stricter on the background/roleplay/item availability.
One reason I know that keeps PFS rules popular for people who play both PFS and Home games is it means not having to remember another set of rules.Another good reason is that for the most part the rules are well thought out and work well over a really large number of tables and thus have a bit of a proven track record of avoiding unexpected consequences.
Another less good reason is that it doesn't require codification of your own house rules.
This is why I tend to keep my houserules to less than one page and will likely add simple things or introduce options from third party products than change things dramatically. I've been in games where there were pages of house rules that practically made it a new game and that was not fun, not just because of the loss of system mastery but they actively took away a lot of options to make way for a new paradigm I was unfamiliar with.
|
|
One thing that made me wonder; is there anything that compensates for the loss of damage at late levels or mitigates the large amount of damage at early levels in that system?RE: Action Economy
My quick take on it is that it normalizes the number of attacks for the whole table. Even the low end mook can now move and attack twice. Or even attack, move, then attack again. And the high end martial is limited to three attacks if they standstill. (no five foot step)
So the level 16+ full BAB fighter loses one iterative attack.
Overall, I would still want to tweak it a bit, like maybe adding an ability/feat to take a 5-foot step as part of simple attack. And change vital strike and haste.
My initial gut feeling is that the early level "extra attack" is mitigated by the lack of bonuses you have. They just won't hit that often. Also at lower levels, your martial character will most likely be dropping things in one hit anyway.
How many mooks you put in a combat is always a balancing act.
As for late levels, you would need to figure out how best to deal with the Vital Strike feat chain (should it be a one act or two act action). TWF/Flurry gives you extra attacks on your first attack action. Then improved gives you the extra attack on the second, and so on. So you could do something similar with the Vital Strike chain.
The balancing factor is that the NPCs are just as limited as the PCs. So less damage to the PCs as well as less damage to the NPCs at the higher levels. This means Clerics can do other thing than heal :)
IMO, I see the new system limiting the "rocket tag" of higher level play.
What are Dazing Assault and Stunning Assault's stamina? Does Broken Wing Gambit have one?
Dazing Assault -- After hitting with a melee attack, may spend 5 stamina points to attempt to daze opponent as if using this feat.
Stunning Assault -- Spend 2 stamina points to end effects of feat at the end of your turn instead of start of next turn.
Broken Wing Gambit -- When opponent with the +2 on attack rolls from this feat attacks you, you may spend 5 stamina points to have the attack provoke an AoO from you as well.
It depends on how you want to use your AoO, though. This way you can also trip on AoOs without the penalty. Tripping a pouncing foe outside where they can reach me is one of my favorite things to do.
Broken Wing Gambit is pretty neat, though the other two are pretty meh (one of the strongest parts of those feats is they work on an AoO).
What's the Stamina ability of Shadow Strike (the feat tax to be able to shank someone in a dark ally)?
Shadow Strike -- Spend 5 stamina points when you hit someone in total concealment to deal precision damage to them.
*Reads Dabbler's review"
*Cries*
The Unchained Monk was basically the only reason I was considering purchasing this book. From what I can see, none of the core problems were fixed, and in some ways the class was actually WEAKENED.
I read the review - agree with his concerns over the monk - however disagree on his conclusion of the changes. I think they look awesome and can't wait to playtest them.
Some of the ki powers are game changers from a read through..
*Reads Dabbler's review"
*Cries*
The Unchained Monk was basically the only reason I was considering purchasing this book. From what I can see, none of the core problems were fixed, and in some ways the class was actually WEAKENED.
I also read his review of the Unchained Monk and I'm dissatisfied with his arguments. Some background info: I followed his musings about the Vanilla Monk class semi-religiously a while ago and I thought he made very good points back then. But as I read his review, what it felt like reading was "I don't like this Monk because it's not the Monk I wanted". This isn't a jab at him, Dabbler's a cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything, I just think his review is lacking.
Paizo hires some pretty smart people- I sincerely doubt they would have shipped a weaker version of the Monk knowing how poorly the vanilla Monk performs.
Maybe you guys are right, maybe you're wrong. But I still have to wait until the 29th to get it anyway, so I may as well wait for another week after that.
*Reads Dabbler's review"
*Cries*
The Unchained Monk was basically the only reason I was considering purchasing this book. From what I can see, none of the core problems were fixed, and in some ways the class was actually WEAKENED.
From what I can see of the review, the only thing he rated as negative was the Will save progression, which I think you had already seen earlier in the thread (not positive). So it depends on whether your conclusion would be that the class is weaker than before if it has low Will save, even if gained lots of options for ki, significant accuracy boosts (in addition to the full BAB, one thing I think no one mentioned yet explicitly is that flurry doesn't give a -2 on attack rolls, which is pretty huge), and freebie powers like flying kick.
Based on your posts, I can't be sure, but I seem to remember that you were generally of the opinion that monks had more than enough defenses, and what they were really missing was a combination of offense (particularly mobile offense) and utility. If that's the case, you may reach a different conclusion than Dabbler did. If not? Just add back in the strong Will saves in your games. If Dabbler did that, based on his point-by-point, I don't see what he would even dislike about the monk; everything seemed to come down to the Will save.
The impression I get from Dabbler's review and others' posts is that the changes were overall minor. The main things that jump out at me:
1.) The Will save is worse. Not a huge deal, but I don't see why it needed to be changed either.
2.) There are a lot of Ki Powers. Neat.
3.) The size of the Ki Pool ha not grown from its current minuscule state. Bad.
4.) Many of the "always on" abilities are now options...that ALSO require Ki to activate. Atrocious.
5.) The abilities are largely the same, just shuffled around. The Monk still has Stunning Fist, and Evasion, and Still Mind as immutable parts of the class. As someone who HATES Stunning Fist (I have played 6 or 7 Monks, and on the ones that had it have used it at every opportunity. It has worked THREE TIMES) I was hoping that it would be optional (Even "Choose Stunning Fist, Elemental Fist, Punishing Kick, etc. at 1st would have been nice), or at least get a boost in power.
6.) The MADness is not addressed in the slightest. This is a BIG one. The Monk still requires a high Dex AND Wis to have an AC that isn't complete garbage, and I personally don't like Dex based Monks very much. I like my Monks able to benchpress a truck, thanks.
That's what I've gotten just from reading the thread. It hasn't really made me excited for the final product. It seems less "Unchained" and more "Slightly tweaked, at best".
dose the summoner's eidolons subtype determine its base stats ( str , dex etc ...) if so are all of them set at a Int.7 ? Do the sub types come with predetermined attacks and damage or weapons ? Can you still determine what the eidolon looks like or is its appearance predetermined ? Thanks for any info .
Okay, so looking at the list of outsider types, I'm really surprised the Kyton isn't included, but the Div is. Dev team, please make more. YOU MUST.
Okay, so looking at the list of outsider types, I'm really surprised the Kyton isn't included, but the Div is. Dev team, please make more. YOU MUST.
Originally div, agathion, and psychopomp weren't on there, but I managed to get them added for you (I will say it was super close between divs and kytons for who would take the evil slot in the extras, since qlippoths and demodands and a few others didn't seem like good candidates). For now, consider those to be cool extras! :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, so looking at the list of outsider types, I'm really surprised the Kyton isn't included, but the Div is. Dev team, please make more. YOU MUST.Originally div, agathion, and psychopomp weren't on there, but I managed to get them added for you (I will say it was super close between divs and kytons for who would take the evil slot in the extras, since qlippoths and demodands and a few others didn't seem like good candidates). For now, consider those to be cool extras! :)
Well, I can dig that. I'm really glad the Psychopomp made the list, at least.
As for the future of this book, I'm hoping we some more touching upon its rules. Unchained sections in future hardcovers. The fact that in a few months we'll have new classes and feats, I'm hoping we get some coverage for this stuff.
Considering how Mythic and downtime has continued to received support well after release, I do have some hope. I'm still a bit anxious about it, though.
Okay, so looking at the list of outsider types, I'm really surprised the Kyton isn't included, but the Div is. Dev team, please make more. YOU MUST.Originally div, agathion, and psychopomp weren't on there, but I managed to get them added for you (I will say it was super close between divs and kytons for who would take the evil slot in the extras, since qlippoths and demodands and a few others didn't seem like good candidates). For now, consider those to be cool extras! :)
Thanks, Paizo-folk! I was indeed pleasantly surprised to get those!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My biggest disappointment with the new summoner is that I can't really make a primal dragon mount anymore. :/
Why not? Just pick elemental, right?
My biggest disappointment with the new summoner is that I can't really make a primal dragon mount anymore. :/Why not? Just pick elemental, right?
Beat me to it! I agree and approve.
Maybe you guys are right, maybe you're wrong. But I still have to wait until the 29th to get it anyway.
Yup. Until then, I will say this:
4.) Many of the "always on" abilities are now options...that ALSO require Ki to activate. Atrocious.
Two abilities, in total, are options costing ki to activate. I am pretty convinced that in a party where your allies cast spells on you often in time crunches such as during combat, Diamond Soul is actually stronger for being opt-in, so that really leaves only Diamond Body. Not really "many." As you suggested, you won't be able to see how it all comes together until you check it out yourself!
Maybe you guys are right, maybe you're wrong. But I still have to wait until the 29th to get it anyway.
Yup. Until then, I will say this:
4.) Many of the "always on" abilities are now options...that ALSO require Ki to activate. Atrocious.Two abilities, in total, are options costing ki to activate. I am pretty convinced that in a party where your allies cast spells on you often in time crunches such as during combat, Diamond Soul is actually stronger for being opt-in, so that really leaves only Diamond Body. Not really "many." As you suggested, you won't be able to see how it all comes together until you check it out yourself!
Ah, that sounds much better. I retract that bit entirely. Especially if Diamond Body lasts for hours, or 10 minutes/level.
Still, Ki Leech is a definite must, moreso than it was already. Assuming that's still an option.
Ah, that sounds much better. I retract that bit entirely. Especially if Diamond Body lasts for hours, or 10 minutes/level.Maybe you guys are right, maybe you're wrong. But I still have to wait until the 29th to get it anyway.
Yup. Until then, I will say this:
4.) Many of the "always on" abilities are now options...that ALSO require Ki to activate. Atrocious.Two abilities, in total, are options costing ki to activate. I am pretty convinced that in a party where your allies cast spells on you often in time crunches such as during combat, Diamond Soul is actually stronger for being opt-in, so that really leaves only Diamond Body. Not really "many." As you suggested, you won't be able to see how it all comes together until you check it out yourself!
In my games, I'm going to be buffing diamond body a little bit more, as-is (I've been considering options like making it an immediate action so you can tempt enemies into poisoning you instead of just passing on the monk), but still some of the other options are so good, I think it won't be chosen that often anyways (abundant step is a good one at the same level, and by the time you get higher, you might be looking at out of combat options like ki visions or a better standard action backup option that doesn't cost you any ki like one touch); certainly for players who always traded away diamond body to the qinggong archetype, I am sure they will not select it in the Unchained monk, since qinggong powers is an option.
Diamond Body was always my Ki Leech trade-out, so I feel that.
I think one sneaky thing Dabbler might not have noticed about the Unchained Monk (that I just thought of myself) is that you don't hit that asinine "I get to trade out a power the level BEFORE I get a new level of power to trade" wall, which is nice.