Announced! Cover image and description are not final.
Awesome. I can smell the freedom from here.
O say can you see
Nice!
Viva el Revolucion! Viva Alysande Benedict!
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I smell drones, death penalty and Gitmo! ;P
Who knew Bags of Devouring preferred MSNBC?! :P
EXCITED
Neat!
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I hope there's a mission on trying to get the consortium out of Andoran politics.
*starts designing a team of masked vigilantes called "Wolf Pack".*
I've always designed a homebrewed version of Andoran which has embraced the firearms from Alkenstar in return for staple goods.
After all with hellknights on one side and Taldan Phalanx on the other, an army of musketmen can really hold the line with eagle knight commanders by their side.
I may plan for Andoran to also be playing with the idea of clockwork units (drones) who are starting to mysteriously act in odd ways. ;)
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Diabolists, your game is through
Cause now you have to answer to
Andoran! F*** yeah!
Comin' to save the mother****in' day yeah!
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I know that's the mock-up cover, but I really want that to be the actual cover. I really like that piece of art.
That being said, I'm glad we're getting a sourcebook on one of the most evil nations in the Inner Sea. Most of the options won't be suitable for players, but they'll make good depraved enemies for my players to fight.
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I'm glad we're getting a sourcebook on one of the most evil nations in the Inner Sea. Most of the options won't be suitable for players, but they'll make good depraved enemies for my players to fight.
Spoken like a true Chelaxian.
Hmm... interesting. I wonder if we'll get that mysterious Gost Wolf they cut from the 3.5 incarnation of this product. I've wondered for years what it was.
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Glad to see my favorite nation is getting a campaign book. Looks like all flavors I like(Numeria, The Shackles, Ustalav, and now Andoran) have been covered. I appreciate the fluff to crunch ratio for the previous books, since I usually convert them over to D&D(originally 4E, now 5E).
@Kadabrass: I hope we get an Andoran focused AP. That would make my year!
Somewhat interested.
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@Kadabrass: I hope we get an Andoran focused AP. That would make my year!
I doubt one will be soon with a Cheliax AP around the corner after Giantslayer. Either they are giving the major nations books out of principle as Osirion got a book this past year and Cheliax will most certainly get one around June. That or Andoran is gonna be tied to one of the up coming APs. I do believe they said that Giantslayers was starting in Belkzen but wasn't gonna stay in Belkzen? Or perhaps Hell's Rebels begins with an invasion of Andoran?
I also remember them saying they haven't forgotten their fan's favorite nations so they might just be picking times they can sneak some content in. Taldor got some new modulars, Cheliax and Osirion got/get new APs. Andoran is getting a book in the meantime til it gets either some new Modulars or an AP at a later time but that wouldn't be for another 2 years as the AP after Hells Rebels will likely be somewhere else, possibly exotic, since we'll have some new classes they needed before doing that place...
Poor Qadira doesn't have much in the current plan. The nation didn't even see much light in PFS this past year as Andoran Taldor and Osirion saw. Thought a upcoming PFS Scenario will be paying Qadira some face time.
I wonder what kind of monsters we will get.
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Hey Ms. Courts! Are you ready to get that Team Andoran puppet line out?
Nice!
Viva el Revolucion! Viva Alysande Benedict!
My dear Kajehase, this isn't Galt! This is Andoran.
I am so looking forward to this! Finally, we'll get a lot more detail in the towns/cities of Andoran. Love it already!
Ooooooo, yes! Give us more on the Twilight Talons, PLEASE!?
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Looking forward to this, but, as I mentioned in my review blurb from 2010 concerning the Andoran Player Companion, the garb of at least the soldiers and perhaps even the non-warrior folk are just too close to the Continental Army of the U.S. Revolutionary War. As the images are so very important to the book and the engaging of the imagination, it is my opinion that these should be re-imagined in such a way that they are more tied to Golarion and rely less on garb from this period in U.S. history.
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Any info in this book about the elite Silver Falcons squad led by the mysterious masked shield champion known only as "Captain Andoran"?
Their battle song...
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Looking forward to this, but, as I mentioned in my review blurb from 2010 concerning the Andoran Player Companion, the garb of at least the soldiers and perhaps even the non-warrior folk are just too close to the Continental Army of the U.S. Revolutionary War. As the images are so very important to the book and the engaging of the imagination, it is my opinion that these should be re-imagined in such a way that they are more tied to Golarion and rely less on garb from this period in U.S. history.
It has already been established as such, so why change it now? For some of us, this is part of the allure of Andoran. The entire country is a refreshing change to fantasy culture, including the garb (the other attraction being democracy/equality, of course). Keep it as is. It's really cool, IMO. Why is it a problem? Just choose to follow/use a different nation in Golarion if it bothers you.
Maybe we could have an Iron Horses Adventure Path?
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It has already been established as such, so why change it now?
Because it's needlessly anachronistic and sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the setting, especially given how this nation supposedly grew out of a vassal state of other realms. Also, in a setting where firearms are rare and armored warriors still prevail, they've been set up to be slaughtered in any battle.
While the attire, colonial US anachronisms, etc. would be fine in another setting, given Andoran's prominence in the Inner Sea, just "ignoring it" doesn't really work.
I love the premise of Andoran as a solid "good guy nation", but every time I had to look at the uber-colonial artwork, it killed it for me. Andoran is the nation that I WANT to like the most (I've centered a campaign there).
^Maybe this is the Andoran Navy we're seeing? Or maybe Andoran is more metal-poor than I thought (although then that bodes ill for an Iron Horses AP).
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It has already been established as such, so why change it now?Because it's needlessly anachronistic and sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the setting, especially given how this nation supposedly grew out of a vassal state of other realms. Also, in a setting where firearms are rare and armored warriors still prevail, they've been set up to be slaughtered in any battle.
While the attire, colonial US anachronisms, etc. would be fine in another setting, given Andoran's prominence in the Inner Sea, just "ignoring it" doesn't really work.
I love the premise of Andoran as a solid "good guy nation", but every time I had to look at the uber-colonial artwork, it killed it for me. Andoran is the nation that I WANT to like the most (I've centered a campaign there).
Its THAT argument again!
Look, first off, 17th-19th century stuff is my favorite; my homebrew is heavily inspired by the cultures of that era (such as colonial America, the French Revolution, the Age of Enlightenment, Edo Period, etc), so its safe to say that this is totally my cup of tea. I get that this isn't for some people, just as pirates and space lazors aren't for others, but I'm the target demographic for this one.
Secondly, how does this really anachronistically stick out when its stuck between a nation with a space ship jutting out of a mountain, a nation with an abyssal chasm torn into it, or (my favorite) a nation shrouded in fog and overrun by Victorian zombies, vampires, and werewolves and was once ruled by Sauron?
Last I checked, Golarion is supposed to be a kitchen sink, so claiming that ONE nation is anachronistic when the rest of the campaign setting is taken into account is just silly.
Golarion isn't middle earth; there are wizards flying spaceships, dragons with guns, pirates fighting kamen rider assassins, and liches with pith helmets, 'cause liches love pith helmets.
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^I think the above was more the argument about this being the kind of anachronism that gets you killed, no matter how cool it is.
But I wouldn't throw the picture away. Just tweak it a bit: Put in something (insignia, background, etc.) to make it clear that this is Andoran Navy/Marines (so they HAVE to eschew armor, which is very floatation-unfriendly), and/or give them some more ranged weapons (although it doesn't hurt to mix in some long spears to make the equivalent of a Pike and Shot force) (also see sparsely armored example modeled by Swedish Army Museum).
I thought Andoran Knights had Fullplate glamored to look like spiffy colonial attire?
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Its THAT argument again!
Look, first off, 17th-19th century stuff is my favorite; my homebrew is heavily inspired by the cultures of that era (such as colonial America, the French Revolution, the Age of Enlightenment, Edo Period, etc), so its safe to say that this is totally my cup of tea. I get that this isn't for some people, just as pirates and space lazors aren't for others, but I'm the target demographic for this one.
Secondly, how does this really anachronistically stick out when its stuck between a nation with a space ship jutting out of a mountain, a nation with an abyssal chasm torn into it, or (my favorite) a nation shrouded in fog and overrun by Victorian zombies, vampires, and werewolves and was once ruled by Sauron?
Last I checked, Golarion is supposed to be a kitchen sink, so claiming that ONE nation is anachronistic when the rest of the campaign setting is taken into account is just silly.
Oh, it's THAT defense again! Kitchen sink is supposed to be a feature, not an excuse.
It's anachronistic given that in the case of the Worldwound & Numeria, there are in-setting reasons containing/limiting the influence of those regions beyond their borders. With Andoran, you have one of the dominant nations in the Inner Sea which is also one of the largest naval powers whose influence extends far beyond their borders.
From a warfare/technology perspective, if Andoran is entering into battle with inferior weapons/armor compared to, say Cheliax, they're going to get slaughtered unless in-setting reasons are presented for why their unarmored armies can go toe-toe with "traditional" armies - and none of the Andoran source material indicates that it's now the dominant firearm-bearing nation of the setting.
Kitchen sink is supposed to allow for a wide variety of playstyles, genres, locales, etc. It doesn't have to mean "anything/everything goes because it's just a game". If there are in-game reasons presented in the campaign setting material, no problem. If there aren't and it's presented just to look different/cool, you're needlessly weakening the setting by weakening the immersion/consistency factor.
I'm a Golarion fan and I appreciate the design & business considerations behind the "self-contained" nation/area approach. However, the biggest issue that I have with Golarion is that sometimes "halfway" approach of integrating elements into the setting.
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So to summarize this argument, BPorter isn't against the Andoran army having revolutionary war-era uniforms because he doesn't like revolutionary war-era uniforms; it's because it's really impractical to have revolutionary war-era uniforms in a setting where most combatants use legit armor.
Are all Andoran soldiers, like, dex-based fighters or something?
Are all Andoran soldiers, like, dex-based fighters or something?
Since several of the Andoran artwork pieces depict two-handed swords being wielded, I'm thinking "no".
So... The Andoran militia wear parade armor, while most other militia wear studded leather armor (or the equivalent). What's the problem?
So... The Andoran militia wear parade armor, while most other militia wear studded leather armor (or the equivalent). What's the problem?
From Ultimate Equipment: "Parade armor may be crafted from leather, metal, or a mixture of both."
"for use in showy noncombat situations"
"for example, one country's parade armor may be a chain shirt, tabard, leather greaves, and a winged helm"
NONE of those describe the Andoran uniforms & hats. They're clearly depicted as worn in combat, don't incorporate recognizable armor (like chain shirts) and unless belts & bandoliers now count as leather armor, they aren't even wearing leather armor, let alone a studded leather equivalent. The best you could do is perhaps argue that they're outfitted with armored coats, but those are supposed to be made up of metal-reinforced leather jackets where the Andoran uniforms in question sure look like cloth to me.
Even if I accept the "parade armor is standard issue premise" (which I don't) -- why does Andoran do it?
Also, Andoran employs a volunteer army and navy rather than conscripts or mercenaries. While I'm sure there are militia, I don't think they get the spiffy blue coats.
Note that the following question...
Even if I accept the "parade armor is standard issue premise" (which I don't) -- why does Andoran do it?
... is rhetorical. I'm not looking for speculation. I'm looking for an in-setting explanation of it. Also, how is it viewed outside of Andoran? By other, more "traditional" armies and navies? Are the Andorans viewed as wimps putting on airs ("They're pretty but can't fight for sh!#") or are they viewed as the avante-garde of Golarion warfare?
Much focus is placed on the Andoran navy. Perhaps the army operates differently? Which is more respected, powerful, or prominent?
Hopefully, the Andoran book will answer questions like these. Right now, though, they look like they're bringing a mindset to battle that is at odds with the tech & tactics of the world in which they live. Unless they're magic-heavy (also not suggested by canon-to-date), they're going to get their butts kicked frequently unless they have overwhelming numbers in every engagement. Again, as a former vassal state, there's not much to suggest that this would be the case.
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Any info in this book about the elite Silver Falcons squad led by the mysterious masked shield champion known only as "Captain Andoran"?
Their battle song...
...and her occasional companions Mithral Man, the Incredible Angry Troll-Like Fellow, Thhorr - Aspect from another pantheon, Sorcerer that can only cast Enlarge Person, and Sorceress that can only cast Reduce Person, Fly, and Shocking Grasp.
I'm not sure whoever wrote that example thought it through, since a chain shirt alone (never mind the leather greaves) would by itself have a higher AC bonus and armor check penalty than parade armor. A chain shirt would also be four times more expensive.
I'm looking at the picture of p.42 of ISWG and that's more or less exactly how I visualize parade armor. Light and flashy yet functional. The armor simply incorporates a good-looking coat. While we're talking about andoran parade armor, If you check out the Inner Sea Combat you will find the Eagle Knight Dress Uniform, which is a +2 parade armor - clearly the armor is not unknown in Andoran.
As for why... Why not? Parade Armor is excellent armor for its cost. It's identical to studded leather armor (except it gives some minor skill bonuses), which is the usual staple for low-grade military troops. When you're supplying basic troops with equipment you can't really afford to go for plate armor - you save that for the elites.
Coincidentally there is an andoran eagle knight shown on p.45 in the same book wearing full plate - clearly parade armor is not the only type of armor they field.
I wonder what kind of monsters we will get.
Other than the ones in the Lumber Consortium? Yeah, I'm curious too. ;)
On a similar note, I'm curious as to how they'll expand the opportunities for trouble and strife in Andoran. Beyond Darkmoon Vale, there are a few bits and pieces briefly alluded to (such as the possibility of hidden Azlanti tomes of forbidden lore held within the trade halls), but it will be interesting to see how/if these are expanded upon to further flesh out Andoran beyond its general concept as the "birthplace of freedom."
Developer
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Hopefully, the Andoran book will answer questions like these. Right now, though, they look like they're bringing a mindset to battle that is at odds with the tech & tactics of the world in which they live. Unless they're magic-heavy (also not suggested by canon-to-date), they're going to get their butts kicked frequently unless they have overwhelming numbers in every engagement. Again, as a former vassal state, there's not much to suggest that this would be the case.
Without including the entire contents of the book here, I'll note that Andoran's conflict with nations like Cheliax, Taldor, and Qadira is more a war of ideals than a physical war in which two armies charge across a field of battle at one another. The armor of the Eagle Knights (especially the Steel Falcons, who largely operate outside Andoran's borders) needs to serve as much as fancy, memorable armor worthy of the defenders of the Inner Sea's greatest form of government as it needs to protect them from physical damage.
As for specific pieces of art in prior publications, consider that illustrations from our own world supposedly representing actual events are often not practical in their implementation. I doubt, for example, that Washington actual stood in a rowboat with one foot on the gunwale while it was traversing iceberg-filled waters as depicted in Washington Crossing the Delaware. But such an image inspires patriotism, valor, awe, and respect among those who view it. I'm not saying every illustration of Andoren military units is such a representation, just as I assume you're not saying they all need to be photorealistic.
A true Andoren wouldn't want to include only heavily armored soldiers fighting for the nation's ideals, after all. Doing so would send a message that only those who can afford such protection are capable of standing up for liberty, that dedicating one's life to what is right and true is inherently without risk, and the incorrect assertion that the common people are not stronger than the blades and arrows wielded by tyrants.
We've illustrated Eagle Knights in plate armor, and will continue to do so. For examples see The Inner Sea World Guide (265); Andoran, Spirit of Liberty (23, 29); Paths of Prestige (22); "Noble Sacrifice" (ch 1). Aside from the half-page illustration referenced as depicting impractical armor, all illustrations of Eagle Knights in unarmored blue clothes are of Gray Corsairs or other marine combatants (Andoran, Spirit of Liberty [cover, 2]; Ships of the Inner Sea [16], etc.) It should probably also be noted that the lightly armored soldiers in the referenced illustration are all cut up. It's pretty clear that their lack of armor had negative effects on their ability to maintain full hit points.
TL;DR: What you're afraid of happening with the art in this book is something we're specifically working to make sure doesn't happen.
'Murica
I've always designed a homebrewed version of Andoran which has embraced the firearms from Alkenstar in return for staple goods.
{. . .}
Homebrewed or not, Andoran really needs to get its own firearms manufacturing industry so that they don't have to depend upon undemocratic and monopolistic Alkenstar. That said, a firearms industry can VERY easily grow into a monster itself. Looking back at Earth for examples . . . .
Personally I just hope the Various Eagle Knights get an MRP.... Currently PrCing into Eagle Knighthood is ok at best.
