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So far I am liking this one a lot. The only thing I have not cared for is the art of Iomedae in the beginning. The second one is ok just looks a little squished, but the first she looks fat in.
That's what happens when you go from the active lifestyle of a crusader to the sedentary life of a God.
I'm waiting on Rysky to stat me up as a demon lord.
Chop chop!
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Pretty standard for his CR, which is 27. Compared to Nocticula, he's a joke.Got it and wow I have to say it is awesome.What do Baphomet's stats look like?
That holds (and should hold) for most creatures with a 3 CR disparity of power between them. Are you expecting a goblin to face a gargoyle? an orc to face a hydra? An Attin to face a young red dragon?
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That holds (and should hold) for most creatures with a 3 CR disparity of power between them. Are you expecting a goblin to face a gargoyle? an orc to face a hydra? An Attin to face a young red dragon?Pretty standard for his CR, which is 27. Compared to Nocticula, he's a joke.Got it and wow I have to say it is awesome.What do Baphomet's stats look like?
He is a demon lord, so please spare me the nonsensical analogies. The problem is not with his reduced stats (outside of them not being nearly in the realm of being threatening to a party of appropiately leveled player characters, but that's a general problem with the way Paizo builds high-level opponents), but with his comparative ability to affect his surroundings. As I said, Nocticula is able to wreck everyones day by just existing in their proximity and talking to herself. She is the only demon lord who actually has a chance of threatening a party of the appropiate power level due to that, because parties of appropiate level have single characters which can easily deal something in the area of 300 to 600 points of damage per round, just by using the core mythic options in a logical fashion. Take one simple Wizard who is supposed to face Baphomet.
Melty McFace
Wizard 18/Archmage 9
Spells: Mythic Empowered Maximised Potent Augmented Fireball (DC 32), Mythic Quickened Empowered Maximised Potent Augmented Fireball (DC 32)
Intelligence: 38, Dexterity 20 (conservative estimate)
Mythic Talents: Eldritch Breach, Arcane Metamastery x4
Feats: Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Mythic Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (Evocation), Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), Mythic Spell Focus (Evocation), Improved Initiative, Mythic Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Empower Spell
Items: Greater Rod of Maximise Spell
Initiative: +27, can spend a mythic power to roll a natural 20
So, the Wizard goes first, or at least before Baphomet. Casts his Mythic Empowered Maximised Potent Augmented Fireball (DC 32), rolls twice vs. Spell Resistance with a +33 (Mythic Greater Spell Penetration, spell is Potent) against a 38, so the spells are extremely likely to land. Then does so with the quickened version as well.
Baphomet only has to roll a 6 to save, but has to roll twice per save and take the lower result. Each spell does 200 points of damage + half of what you roll on 20d10, so statistically something like 310 points of damage. Half of that is 155 damage, so Baphomet takes at least 310 points of damage, about half his hitpoint pool, if he saves on both spells.
And that's one character, which I built in 20 minutes. Three more to go, most of whom will act before Baphomet even took his turn.
Wow, wasn't expecting to...
** spoiler omitted **
Just curious, is this special cameo named or is he just one of the scrubs who weren't among the first nor obviously the last?
Don't forget Magnuskn to include the abilities a demon lord has when in his domain. They do up the difficulty a bit.
Every demon lord stated up dosen't have their in domain abilities included. Look at previous ones for examples.
Yeah, just looked it up and he gets a +10 to initiative. That means that my conservatively built mythic Wizard doesn't go automatically before Baphomet, but rather only if Baphomet rolls a 14+ on his initiative check. The rest of the upgrades really don't do that much for him. Getting a surge on his initiative check might, though.
*edit* Ninja'ed by Alleran. ^^
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Actually, maguskin, that's not completely correct. The fireball would do 0 damage because Baphomet is immune to fire attacks. You'd have to spend an additional 2 mythic points to bypass the immunity.
Which, the question is how many mythic points will the player have at this point, after all the fights with the wardens and such? That's something I admittedly cannot answer, as each group is different with their resource spending.
In addition, we can go back and forth on tactics and builds and what not, but the truth is that you won't agree with us and we won't agree with you. So, why bother wasting bandwidth?
A particular nice piece of advice could do with some clarification?
ALDERPASH (p. 51-52)
His best advice, however, is that they should seek out the two most
significant treasures the demon keeps here in the Prison
Vault: Baphomet’s original glaive and a mundane ball of
twine. The destruction of these objects in Baphomet’s
presence is certain to drive him to a reckless fury that may
give the PCs an advantage.
Earlier we learned:
K. Prison Vault (CR 15+)(p. 41)
(...) a Large +4 unholy speed glaive (Baphomet’s original
weapon of choice, now replaced by the glaive Aizerghaul),
a simple and nonmagical ball of twine (the true nostalgic
and sentimental value of this mundane object is known
only to Baphomet, but he values this item more than any
other stored here)
Could some light be shed as to the exact effect this will produce?
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Actually, maguskin, that's not completely correct. The fireball would do 0 damage because Baphomet is immune to fire attacks. You'd have to spend an additional 2 mythic points to bypass the immunity.
That's why I wrote "Augmented" in the spells description. And it's one additional point to the point you would normally spend.
Which, the question is how many mythic points will the player have at this point, after all the fights with the wardens and such? That's something I admittedly cannot answer, as each group is different with their resource spending.
I would bet that "enough to do that super-combo I need to do to down any opponent I'd like" is the exact number any player would try to keep back for such an occasion.
In addition, we can go back and forth on tactics and builds and what not, but the truth is that you won't agree with us and we won't agree with you. So, why bother wasting bandwidth?
Who is "us" exactly? Also, I am just demonstrating that a character I can stat up in 20 minutes will be able to single-handedly significantly damage a demon lord in one round who, according to James, is not supposed to be a push-over. People who actually put their mind to building something really effective will easily do better than I did.
My main point, which I haven't actually seen refuted via factual evidence by anyone so far, is that the player character power level is by far higher than what seems to be expected by the developers. Or maybe the power level of monsters is very much lower that what the developers expect it to be. In any case, monster which are supposed to be challenging can easily deafeated before they even get to act. Baphomet has the advantage of a high initiative, but if look at guys like Xoveron... well, I'm kinda happy that he isn't about to show up, it would end very anticlimactically for him.
A particular nice piece of advice could do with some clarification?
** spoiler omitted **
Earlier we learned:
** spoiler omitted **
Could some light be shed as to the exact effect this will produce?
Oh, great, another "Ben Grimm really fears the image of his aunt Petunia and will be staggered for 1d6 rounds as long as someone openly displays it before him" gimmick?
What are the monsters in this one?
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I didn't see any of that in the module.
Personally I think you'll be very underwhelmed by
That said the adventure is well written and very entertaining. I think it will be good to run and look forward to it. As I said before the issue I have is the number of encounters at or below the PCs level which consist of an enemy APL-1, supported by drones of APL-5/6. (Assuming level 15 tier 7 to be equiv of level 18)
I didn't see any of that in the module. The items really just assure Baphomet attacks the players. On a note ** spoiler omitted **
Actually
He doesn't come from a big battle, he comes from resting in his tower after having been killed by Nocticula, and if he dies again he's permanently gone from the game (although probably not in canon) - but he does arrive at full health and with all abilities at max. (or should have)
Personally I think you'll be very underwhelmed by ** spoiler omitted **
Does all your PC's have AC 36, or one has AC 25 and another has AC 45? and in which case - how?
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No, no. I mean
Actually, they have 1d4 rounds to prepare.
Actually, they have 1d4 rounds to prepare.
+ 1 round per minion still alive if any
Full plate +5, Shield +5, Nat Armor+5, Ring of Prot+5, Dex +1 is a 41 AC right there, with no effort being made, and doable by level 15 without much problem.
There is a bigger story. Can someone point me to the FAQ or Errata where it was ruled that Defender AC bonuses stack between different weapons?
Because I was given to understand they did no such thing, and yet it's described as one of Yleshka's standard tactics.
If this is a new ruling, I think we need to know. She can basically take -1 to hit to gain +12 AC.
==Aelryinth
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Full plate +5, Shield +5, Nat Armor+5, Ring of Prot+5, Dex +1 is a 41 AC right there, with no effort being made, and doable by level 15 without much problem.
There is a bigger story. Can someone point me to the FAQ or Errata where it was ruled that Defender AC bonuses stack between different weapons?
Because I was given to understand they did no such thing, and yet it's described as one of Yleshka's standard tactics.
If this is a new ruling, I think we need to know. She can basically take -1 to hit to gain +12 AC.
==Aelryinth
transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others.
So I wouldn't see how it wouldn't work.
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Magnus, if your entire party took Mythic Improved Initiative, then you're already running with a party that's pushing as hard as possible for rocket tag before anything else comes into play. And you need to adjust for it.
I was going to include anticipate peril in the list, but it doesn't stack with his Heightened Awareness (+10 insight to Init, getting him up to +33) for being a demon lord in his own realm.
For an amusing jerk move, you could also have Baph uses his 1/day miracle to completely reshape the prison, possibly flinging every PC into separate sections.
Now, a question I have - the demon lords in Wrath of the Righteous don't have *'d which of their spell-like powers become mythic while in their realm, so I'm not sure which ones they have the mythic versions of. Is the correct answer that it's every spell-like power they have that has an official mythic spell write-up? Like Great Old Ones have?
Just curious, is this special cameo named or is he just one of the scrubs who weren't among the first nor obviously the last?Wow, wasn't expecting to...
** spoiler omitted **
Spoiler:For an amusing jerk move, you could also have Baph uses his 1/day miracle to completely reshape the prison, possibly flinging every PC into separate sections.
For added excitement and flavor:
Also, I truly hope that every GM blares some Norwegian black metal music when it all happens...you could even treat this outside noise as a moral debuff against the PCs if you're really worried about them being too powerful >:)
What are the monsters in this one?
Demon, Vilsteth - CR16
Labyrinth Minotaur - CR16
Demodand, Stringy - CR15
The minotaur's artwork was spoiled in this blog post, the vilsteth is reminiscent of the nightmare ettercap from B4, and the demodand looks like it's trying to be Batman.
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Magnus, if your entire party took Mythic Improved Initiative, then you're already running with a party that's pushing as hard as possible for rocket tag before anything else comes into play. And you need to adjust for it.
** spoiler omitted **
Now, a question I have - the demon lords in Wrath of the Righteous don't have *'d which of their spell-like powers become mythic while in their realm, so I'm not sure which ones they have the mythic versions of. Is the correct answer that it's every spell-like power they have that has an official mythic spell write-up? Like Great Old Ones have?
Eh, I am aware that I, as the GM, can always drop an anvil on the party and declare them dead. The main point is that for regular gameplay the numbers between player abilities and monster defenses don't match.
Full plate +5, Shield +5, Nat Armor+5, Ring of Prot+5, Dex +1 is a 41 AC right there, with no effort being made, and doable by level 15 without much problem.
There is a bigger story. Can someone point me to the FAQ or Errata where it was ruled that Defender AC bonuses stack between different weapons?
Because I was given to understand they did no such thing, and yet it's described as one of Yleshka's standard tactics.
If this is a new ruling, I think we need to know. She can basically take -1 to hit to gain +12 AC.
==Aelryinth
transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others.
So I wouldn't see how it wouldn't work.
all 'others'.
Defending is not an 'other' bonus to itself. That is exactly like having your strength bonus stack with your strength bonus. They're both untyped, why wouldn't they stack?
No bonus is an 'other' bonus to itself, and stacks with itself. This will be quite the exception if is allowed to pass.
==Aelryinth
I would think at this point after fighting so many countless powerful demons one after another that can teleport at will that the party would have multiple uses of items and spells to dimensionally anchor creatures almost always on hand.Oh yeah, Baph makes an appearance and as usual with demons with lots of hiit points, to get rid of him the party has better win initiative and all attack at once and do enough damage before he telleport away. Otherwise the chance is there to be rid of him.
Not when demon lords can use spells like miracle or wish to override them!
Got a question...
At the end of Midnight Isles, Bapho enter the Midnight Isles and is seen being attacked by an unseen Noct. He then fled Noct's presence. Here in the Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth, it is revealed that Noct killed him in that encounter.
So gamewise and mechanically speaking, is it possible for her to do it in the short amount of time it takes?
Got a question...
** spoiler omitted **
Almost undoubtedly no. In the example given, He was uninvited in realm & she got the jump on him. In this instance, the situation is almost exactly reversed. While he won't particularly have the jump on her, it is his home realm.
Creative Director
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Got a question...
Spoiler:At the end of Midnight Isles, Bapho enter the Midnight Isles and is seen being attacked by an unseen Noct. He then fled Noct's presence. Here in the Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth, it is revealed that Noct killed him in that encounter.
So gamewise and mechanically speaking, is it possible for her to do it in the short amount of time it takes?
Whether or not it's possible is kind of irrelevant to the plot of the adventure, frankly. This is a prime example of why providing stats for such powerful creatures in print is kind of limiting to story purposes.
Here's one possible method though:
You can, of course, go ahead and fight the battle out between them, starting with Nocticula stranding Baphomet in her realm with a miracle or the like to ensure she can fight him to the death. But in #76, we didn't have Baphomet's stats available yet, so that wasn't a fair option to give to the GM.
** spoiler omitted **Just curious, is this special cameo named or is he just one of the scrubs who weren't among the first nor obviously the last?Wow, wasn't expecting to...
** spoiler omitted **
That's seven kinds of awesome, thanks for that. I always love hearing about those wacky wizards, especially when they aren't ones we've seen before. I want a write-up on the other four we're missing.
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Actually, they have 1d4 rounds to prepare.
In my book that would mean 1 round, 2 if I was feeling generous or felt the players needed it (prob no in your case). Note his tactics as well:
James I don't see the issue. Nocticula is a demon lord on the verge of god hood isn't she. I can't see players quibbling over how she killed Baphomet. If they look like they could, have her send the PC's home, or away from the site of the battle (perhaps back to the room they met her in Arrushinrrya). She can always return to them victorious an appropriate amount of time later - it is her realm, can't be too hard to send PC's elsewhere while she deals with the powerful intruder.
I may make the PC's fight an angry Baphomet for a round or two before Nocticula appears and forces them away. Hopefully they'll be eager to strike back at Baphomet. May even expose everyone to her aura and have the PC's simply standing there fascinated while she deals with Baphomet - brings home her power. I feel pretty confident I can shield the PC's during the fight and still let them feel like they are contributing.
Eh, I am aware that I, as the GM, can always drop an anvil on the party and declare them dead. The main point is that for regular gameplay the numbers between player abilities and monster defenses don't match.Magnus, if your entire party took Mythic Improved Initiative, then you're already running with a party that's pushing as hard as possible for rocket tag before anything else comes into play. And you need to adjust for it.
** spoiler omitted **
Now, a question I have - the demon lords in Wrath of the Righteous don't have *'d which of their spell-like powers become mythic while in their realm, so I'm not sure which ones they have the mythic versions of. Is the correct answer that it's every spell-like power they have that has an official mythic spell write-up? Like Great Old Ones have?
I think the main issue I see with you is that you look at the numbers of monsters in a vacuum, separately, without seeing how to use them to their fullest. I think that you really need to open up and think outside the box in how to run monsters. That may honestly be why your players seem to stomp all over your fights. I mean, don't get me wrong, sometimes as a GM you have to pull out the cheese to fight PCs that have become demigods. But I have this feeling (and I'm trying hard not to sound condescending or insulting) that maybe you need to step back and really look at the big picture on stats and boss fights.
I agree with Magnuskn that end boss are always way weaker than they should be and it is even worse in mythic.
That being said even if a Wizard is strong, physical class are king in mythic.
You don't need to optimize, you just need either: Vital strike chain and mytic vital strike or Full attack with fleet warrior and precision.
Add a legendary item with Foe bitting and that's it.
I have calculated that my mythic paladin with mythic vital strike should do 800+ DMG on a non crit and something like 2000+ on a 15-20 crit autoconfirm by level 14 or so.
I don't think taking a simple feats chain is considered "optimized" either.
By the way for wizard the way to go is a maximized augmented mythic disintegrate using channel power archmage path ability.
That's 1140 DMG right there.
Disintegrate can crit though, way funnier, and if both ray are saved (which won't happen) it still 120 dmg and -2 constit ;)
Anyway I think we can all agree, 700+ HP is one round.
Exactly what is preventing you folks from allowing Baphy to kick in the door with an entourage of high-level demons and half-fiend minotaurs?
I mean, as written
I'm still really not seeing how Baphomet is "weak" at all. With his scroll use, meta-game knowledge of the PCs, his demon lord home turf bonus, and an entourage of lost souls rivaling Nicki Minaj and Lady Gaga's groupies combined, I really can't imagine him not being a challenge.
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I think the main issue I see with you is that you look at the numbers of monsters in a vacuum, separately, without seeing how to use them to their fullest. I think that you really need to open up and think outside the box in how to run monsters. That may honestly be why your players seem to stomp all over your fights. I mean, don't get me wrong, sometimes as a GM you have to pull out the cheese to fight PCs that have become demigods. But I have this feeling (and I'm trying hard not to sound condescending or insulting) that maybe you need to step back and really look at the big picture on stats and boss fights.
Oh, I am beefing up every fight we have, fear not. When I quetch and moan about how the fight is presented in the module as written, it is never with the assumption that I will run the fights as they are, especially not that at that level of power.
However, I do complain to point out that the discrepancy between player character power level and monster power level is wildly out of whack at those levels and it does seem very apparent to me that either the developers are actively trying to ignore that problem or just don't see it. When I sometimes wonder if they have actually ever run those modules in actual play (and run them as written), it is because I can't see how they would not come to the same conclusion, on pure mathematics, than I have.
I'm still really not seeing how Baphomet is "weak" at all. With his scroll use, meta-game knowledge of the PCs, his demon lord home turf bonus, and an entourage of lost souls rivaling Nicki Minaj and Lady Gaga's groupies combined, I really can't imagine him not being a challenge.
Because, as Lauraliane and Alleran pointed out above, the game is rocket tag at that point and if someone acts before Baphomet can (somehow) make himself unhittable, he'll be gone before he even gets to say "boo". You can have 20.000 unique powers, if someone kills you in one attack pass, they don't matter. Monster HP and saves are wildly too low after level 10, let alone at the apex of the game.
I'm still really not seeing how Baphomet is "weak" at all. With his scroll use, meta-game knowledge of the PCs, his demon lord home turf bonus, and an entourage of lost souls rivaling Nicki Minaj and Lady Gaga's groupies combined, I really can't imagine him not being a challenge.Because, as Lauraliane and Alleran pointed out above, the game is rocket tag at that point and if someone acts before Baphomet can (somehow) make himself unhittable, he'll be gone before he even gets to say "boo". You can have 20.000 unique powers, if someone kills you in one attack pass, they don't matter. Monster HP and saves are wildly too low after level 10, let alone at the apex of the game.
Why isn't Baphomet casting these spells on himself on his way to the fight? As JJ said above, Baphomet practically has metagame knowledge of your party - just let him use that information ahead of time.
You know, we've been hearing about the rocket tag problems with your group for months now...I'd really love to see you make a video or podcast of your WotR sessions so that we can see how super amazingly smart and talented your players truly are.
So, tell me about the Labyrinth Minotaur.
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Why isn't Baphomet casting these spells on himself on his way to the fight? As JJ said above, Baphomet practically has metagame knowledge of your party - just let him use that information ahead of time.
Alas, he arrives in 1d4 rounds. If you can find spell-like abilities on his list which can make him unhittable, please point them out to me. As I said above, I am not complaining about how I personally will run the encounter, but how it is written. Or better said, how the monsters at that level are developed in general.
You know, we've been hearing about the rocket tag problems with your group for months now...I'd really love to see you make a video or podcast of your WotR sessions so that we can see how super amazingly smart and talented your players truly are.
They are not. The majority of them are regular players who only have a lot of experience. Two of them actually are very good mechanically, but even they normally keep far away from the stuff you can find in the optimization threads on this board. That being said, I am actually writing an on-going thread for my group on the Wrath board, although we are only at the beginning of Sword of Valor and thus it will take some time before the typical high level problems crop up.
The game, mathematically and mechanically, allows you the mentioned damage numbers at those levels of play without even really having to think about it. The monsters do not bear out that math and it really is baffling to me why the developers refuse to even acknowledge that.
And actually, I am also baffled why people like you and Odraude seem to ignore those basic realities as well? Have you even tried to math out at any time how basic abilities interact with each other at that level? Because the way you talk about what some of us are saying it sounds like you have not and are simply putting your confidence on faith alone in the mechanical soundness of the game at high levels.