Pathfinder Adventure Path #68: The Shackled Hut (Reign of Winter 2 of 6) (PFRPG)

Pretty grim stuff in the tower with the children, however.

So good move!

And, the background of some encounters and situations is such that children have been eaten by ice trolls and wicked old witches.

However, whenever a living child is depicted in the The Shackled Hut, the PCs have the ability to help them, rescue them, and put positive change in place. No player and no PC is expected to see violence to a young person that they can't put a stop to. For the tragedies that have already taken place, they can bring those responsible to justice.

Let me be the first to say, this should not be a regular feature of every adventure and every adventure path. I, personally, think it should be the exception to the rule. It's not something I plan to continue to do in other projects, unless the Developer or the outline really demand it.

The reason I included elements of it in The Shackled Hut, is that it is authentic to source material. It's part of the Baba Yaga legend, and it's part of Irrisen. It is part of the fables. The witch with the Gingerbread House did not set Hansel and Gretel to assembling iPhones—she tried to cook them.

But as a story element, this is a potent spice and it should be used with care and consideration, or not added to the recipe at all.

The characters are in the perfect place to stop it. And if that's not what heroes are for, I don't know what is!

The contrivances of the hut deciding to create a gate to the first world as "a means of defense" while it is trapped by dimensional shackles seems unusual too. Would it even go anywhere if the market square was yanked into the first world while bound like that? How is it capable of doing this, and if threatened does it have other similar defenses? Artifacts do all sorts of crazy things, but usually they don't feel like so much of an excuse to create a single-line approach to a location.

Then there's the reality siphon blocking off the entrance to the hut. It serves as an obvious stop-gap to prevent the PCs from simply making a mad dash into the hut to circumvent the challenges presented prior, but it seems again, very heavy-handed. Further, Nazhena is inexplicably trapped on the other side of the reality siphon, just waiting for the PCs to come along and manhandle her.

After all of the buildup to Nazhena through Snows of Summer and most of the Shackled Hut, to find her cornered (without really any background given to the GM as to how she became in this predicament or for how long) by a magic blot again seems heavy-handed and uninspired.

I'm not sure if I'm going to choose to run it as presented when I finally get around to this chapter, but at least I have time to consider how to reorganize the encounters.

Has anyone else experienced some frustration with this particular chapter and deciphering how someone like Nazhena got trapped where she has? I have a feeling that this section might have been very different in the original turnover, as it just feels awkwardly out of place with the rest of the book.

The entire setup of an indestructible maze/forest that the PCs are forced to go through in one direction and can use none of their abilities to circumvent it seems really forced. That every single section of the encounter as written says "if you have this ability it doesn't work" is frustrating to me both as a GM and playing Devil's Advocate from a player's perspective. A player should be rewarded for having the ability to bypass brambles, for instance, not penalized.

I think this frustration stems from the fact that by all appearances this is a set of outdoor encounters rather than an in-door set of encounters. I suspect if this was depicted in a dungeon, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Any author who has written a number of adventures will tell you, we have to use the architecture to control the pacing and flow of the adventure. This prevents the PCs from walking down the first flight of steps, taking the door to the right, and having the BBEG and the story finale be the very first thing the PCs deal with. Leaving the rest of the dungeon to be a series of fights to collect loot. We place doors, hallways, and rooms to guide the flow of the story. We also do our best to make the architecture look and feel as real as possible. Sometimes it is a balancing act.

Let's talk specifically about this AP now. I do agree with you, when a character has a class ability like woodland stride, it is questionable whether that ability should be rendered less usable. Nevertheless, in instances in the past where characters could use them to great effect have been limited to one or two encounters. I'll back this up with specifics. There are brambles around Thistletop (Runelords #1) which a druid can bypass and gain a specific advantage. Yet, that is just a couple encounters. There are places on Smuggler's Shiv where it can be used to great effect in Serpent's Skull #1, but not every single encounter.

As a parallel example, there are haunts, which 3rd level paladin becomes immune to.. I am all for cheering those PCs on and saying, "Sometimes it is good to be the paladin!" But not every encounter is a haunt, and other PCs can still be challenged by them.

To be able to bypass the thorn walls, go straight for the Hut or to scout every encounter ahead of time, would be like unlimited passwall or ethereal jaunt which are very high level spell effects.

Surely you won't begrudge us some tools in order to present a series of challenges and obstacles for the PCs to overcome? Are the author and developer to be penalized because we didn't situate all the encounters underground?

Incidentally, I don't see the Market Square / Forest being that different from the Howlings. At one point while we were discussing the Howlings there was a thought that we could do something like a 'sewer run' underneath it, rather than a true set of urban encounters that required Stealth, roleplaying, and social skills. I said to myself, "Hell no". It's supposed to be borough or a neighborhood with winter wolves, and I wasn't going to turn in a sewer—with lame-o underground winter sewer wolves. As Clark Peterson would say, "That just wouldn't be Superstar." Neverthless, the path through the Howlings has an approximation of maze-like walls, which are solid houses with people living in them. Otherwise you could skip all the encounters and just walk through it. Like we're trying to stop with players walking right to the final encounter with the Dancing Hut.

Would either be a satisfying experience?

The contrivances of the hut deciding to create a gate to the first world as "a means of defense" while it is trapped by dimensional shackles seems unusual too.

Just a clarification here: The Hut creates no gate to the First World. It draws elements of the First World to it. Possibly in an effort to depart, which it cannot. Or maybe it is just to defend itself. Once those elements of the First World surround it, specifically the Dawn Pipers—they try to go home taking the Hut with them.

Would it even go anywhere if the market square was yanked into the first world while bound like that?

A fair question. If you had a wheel boot or a tire immobilizer on your car, I would certainly agree that your car was not driving off anywhere until it was removed. And yet, if a starship were to hover over your house and beam your house, garage, and front driveway into it's cargo hold, I could see an argument for your car—tire boot and all, being transported on board too. Silly argument I know

We're trying to present to three way contest for control of this artifact, and this was a storytelling convention to allow for a third party to try to steal the Hut out from under both the PCs and the White Witches. We felt this made for a more interesting story.

How is it capable of doing this, and if threatened does it have other similar defenses? Artifacts do all sorts of crazy things, but usually they don't feel like so much of an excuse to create a single-line approach to a location.

I think this is part and parcel of what an artifact really is—a storytelling device. Magic items are game mechanical functions which should be built to scale to a certain power level, and therefore be balanced to the game. (Yeah, that's the theory and some items are better than others for meeting that criteria). But an artifact is not constrained by the need to be balanced, even though sometimes we attach stat blocks to them.

Then there's the reality siphon blocking off the entrance to the hut. It serves as an obvious stop-gap to prevent the PCs from simply making a mad dash into the hut to circumvent the challenges presented prior, but it seems again, very heavy-handed.

I suppose it depends on whether you see me, Jim Groves (or Rob), as trying to stop your PCs from getting to the Hut to early, or whether you consider the dawn pipers would like to stop them in order to capture the Hut for themselves.

In my original turnover there was something of a sub-plot that dealt with this. The dawn pipers had been swept into Golarion, but once here were acting on behest of a powerful Cold Rider Lord (I never wrote up his stats, but class levels were suggested) who had commanded the Dawn Pipers to open a gate for him to cross over. There he planned on slaying the PCs and Nazhena and seizing the Hut. The impenetrable field was his nascent gate which required time to fully manifest. Obviously there were changes made in development (and I assume for the best of reasons).

But whether it's a reality siphon or a nascent gate, isn't it a good thing we prevented a "mad dash" to Hut? I'm not sure why pacing the story is suddenly such poor design. Respectfully.

After all of the buildup to Nazhena through Snows of Summer and most of the Shackled Hut, to find her cornered (without really any background given to the GM as to how she became in this predicament or for how long) by a magic blot again seems heavy-handed and uninspired.

She is defending the Hut from a fey incursion, and from adventurers she already has cause to suspect are on their way (what with the fall of the Pale Tower, the death of Radosek, and either Norgrimm's report or his disappearance). She's defending it personally because most of the Winter Guard has been drawn off to suppress with Iron Guard, which was the point of assassinating Logrivich. Personally, I did not prevented flight in and out of the area around the Hut. That wasn't my decision, because I didn't foresee the PCs be willing to fly in because they'd likely lack the resources to all fly in at once, and therefore refrain from splitting the party. Nevertheless, the 'no-fly zone' keeps one or two flying characters who are "scouting" from getting killed while separated from the rest of the party. Just because I didn't think of it doesn't mean it wasn't the right call to make.

Nazhena is not defenseless in a corner. Her construct is the same CR as any one of the dawn pipers (CR 5) and she's primed to summon a CR 3 ice mephit. A witch's flight hex is a (Su) supernatural ability so it's not exactly easy to knock her to the ground. Economy of action is all zipped up. I don't send my BBEG's into battle undefended!

From a logistics/plot point of view, Nazhena is just there to prevent any one from getting to the Hut until order has been re-established. Then I am sure Princess Cassisoche (acting ruler of Whitethrone while Elvanna is indisposed) would be sending relief for Nazhena. She may be "trapped" but she's more dangerous than anything on the map.. and she's just waiting for back-up. I don't see this as a "predicament", I see it as a choice. And a "smart choice" if you want to be advance up the ranks in a New World-Order-To-Be. I imagine Elvanna and Cassisoche approving of her decision, "Because if you want something done right, you do it yourself." We tried our best to foreshadow Nazhena throughout the adventure in response to fan feedback, but all I can take away from this is that one of the final bosses should somehow not be one of the final bosses. Do I have that wrong?

I'm not sure if I'm going to choose to run it as presented when I finally get around to this chapter, but at least I have time to consider how to reorganize the encounters.

:)

That is well within your purview, and I can't fault you for wanting the best possible experience for yourself and your players. I may disagree on some points, but I respect you for doing what you feel is best.

Has anyone else experienced some frustration with this particular chapter and deciphering how someone like Nazhena got trapped where she has? I have a feeling that this section might have been very different in the original turnover, as it just feels awkwardly out of place with the rest of the book.

Actually, much of it is is exactly the way I wrote it. That the Market was changed into the Forest as magical response from the Hut was part of the original outline as ways always part of the plot. It was my job to implement it. The most significant difference between the final version and the turnover was: the dawn pipers opening a gate to the First World and allowing something powerful through VS subsuming the physical area back to the First World.

I respect and admire Mr. McCreary. Its his responsibility to make the best adventure he can out of my work, and stand by all his decisions. That's how this process works. We're a team, with Adam, James, and the rest of the editorial department.

Again, I see Nazhena not as "trapped" but "guarding and waiting".

I think this frustration stems from the fact that by all appearances this is a set of outdoor encounters rather than an in-door set of encounters. I suspect if this was depicted in a dungeon, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I think that is exactly true, definitely.

There are brambles around Thistletop (Runelords #1) which a druid can bypass and gain a specific advantage. Yet, that is just a couple encounters. There are places on Smuggler's Shiv where it can be used to great effect in Serpent's Skull #1, but not every single encounter.

Also examples I certainly was thinking of, specifically Thistletop. I think that's why this seemed so out of place for me.

In my original turnover there was something of a sub-plot that dealt with this. The dawn pipers had been swept into Golarion, but once here were acting on behest of a powerful Cold Rider Lord (I never wrote up his stats, but class levels were suggested) who had commanded the Dawn Pipers to open a gate for him to cross over. There he planned on slaying the PCs and Nazhena and seizing the Hut. The impenetrable field was his nascent gate which required time to fully manifest. Obviously there were changes made in development (and I assume for the best of reasons).

See, that right there I think makes this entire situation seem all the more logical. Obviously with the word-count limit for an AP there's only so many things that can be put into print, but I think the motivations of the dawn pipers seeming thin was part of my frustration as well. The entire cold rider subplot I think would have made the encounter with the dawn pipers more interesting, especially if their existence (and perhaps their plan) was foreshadowed some once arriving in the Howlings.

There's a high likelihood I'll adapt that subplot into my own campaign!

But whether it's a reality siphon or a nascent gate, isn't it a good thing we prevented a "mad dash" to Hut? I'm not sure why pacing the story is suddenly such poor design. Respectfully.

It's definitely not the pacing that's the issue, to me. I think it's more that it's a single-circumvention block. The dawn pipers need to be killed in order to progress and there's no Route B.

Obviously this has a lot of precedent in gaming of all varieties, but for the penultimate encounter of the module it would've been interesting for there to have been one or two other workarounds to bypass the reality siphon without making it feel like "you must clear the room of monsters before proceeding."

Sometimes that works out really well, other times it doesn't. I think this is one of the instances where, for a number of reasons, it just doesn't feel right to me. I think you were right in that it's really an indoor encounter disguised as an outdoor encounter. I may do some expectation management with my players on this too, play up the "fortress" like nature of the trees, make it seem more cathedralesque rather than just indestructible timber walls.

She is defending the Hut from a fey incursion

It's good to hear that directly, because it was hard to infer that from the text of the area. I was really looking to see where the final confrontation with Nazhena would be when I first read through the module, and found it odd that she was compartmentalized in such a way. It gave the impression on my first read-through that she was just caught there by surprise and has been stuck for an indeterminate period of time.

How many days has she been trapped in a small area near a hut that wanted to chicken-dance her apart? I can see that in your original turnover, having there be room for her to fly out makes total sense because she could depart for her home, rest properly, then return to the hut in the morning while leaving her golem there to keep an eye on the dawn pipers while she was getting a more dignified nap than sleeping at the feet of the hut (which doesn't sound all that safe to me regardless).

From a logistics/plot point of view, Nazhena is just there to prevent any one from getting to the Hut until order has been re-established.

Again, that makes a lot more sense and given everything else you've explain I can see why certain decisions were made, even if the final product obfuscated that somewhat.

[quote=Then I am sure Princess Cassisoche (acting ruler of Whitethrone while Elvanna is indisposed) would be sending relief for Nazhena. She may be "trapped" but she's more dangerous than anything on the map.. and she's just waiting for back-up.

Outside the construct of my original review, I would have liked to see a "development" section on this part of the adventure, should the PCs delay unnecessarily in reclaiming the hut. There's some discussion as to what happens if they don't act while the uprising is being put down, but I would've liked to have a list of some possible outcomes if the dawn pipers managed to succeed in pulling this section of the city into the first world. What would happen to the hut, to the courtyard, etc.

I know some of my players may feel compelled to side (even temporarily) with the dawn pipers and let them yank that section of the city into the first world, if it makes accessing the hut easier. Now, I know I'm free to make up whatever scenario in that regard I can imagine, but an outline of maybe what they were trying to accomplish/how it would play out/how it would affect the hut's dimensional shackling would've been cool.

Ultimately, I realize not everything can be included due to space. But a man can dream!

I don't see this as a "predicament", I see it as a choice. And a "smart choice" if you want to be advance up the ranks in a New World-Order-To-Be. I imagine Elvanna and Cassisoche approving of her decision, "Because if you want something done right, you do it yourself." We tried our best to foreshadow Nazhena throughout the adventure in response to fan feedback, but all I can take away from this is that one of the final bosses should somehow not be one of the final bosses. Do I have that wrong?

Quote:

No, no no. I most certainly wanted Nazhena to be the final confrontation in this, mostly because of how well she was foreshadowed and how dangerous, cruel and magnificently evil her presence had been. Perhaps if she had somehow been able to get inside the hut, or was somehow in a position where it didn't feel like she had her back to the wall and was cornered I'd feel differently.

I know this was a preconceived expectation, but I'd hoped that the confrontation with Nazhena would have been more monumental. Nazhena arriving as the PCs presume their victory, retinue of guards with her. Make them feel like the ones pinned behind the reality siphon. They're trapped with her and not the other way around.

However, I can see there being some catharsis in this. After all of the terrible things she's done, Nazhena now has her power and an ice golem standing between herself and a grisly death by either the PCs hands or the hut's if they manage to bull-rush/reposition her into kicking reach.

I think now, having hashed out the why and how of a lot of these situations it seems better. I just don't want to have my players feel cheated or too railroaded at this section. But I think by adding some spice in the flavors you mentioned will probably help that a lot.

I think the biggest takeaway from this is: The difference of Nazhena being there to confront the cold rider when he emerges to try and defend the hut from an impending threat as opposed to her waiting where the hut is about to be hijacked into the first world and being largely unable (or unwilling?) to stop it and getting trapped there herself.

I really appreciate you coming in and discussing the issues with me that I had, Jim. It's a fantastic opportunity to be able to have this rapport with the Paizo staff and its writers and I hope you don't see my criticisms with this singular portion of the book to be too harsh. I greatly admire your work and especially the opportunity you have doing what you do. I am ever graetful for all your hard work!

...and in closing, I'll also add that you did really surprise me in a great way, throwing an 11th-hour encounter with a bone golem into the hut after what the players will likely see as the "final confrontation" with Nazhena. I think that's going to surprise everyone when it hits them.

I don't know about the other Designers, but I'm always eager to learn and I'm not afraid to engage folks. So after mulling it over last night and this morning I just wanted to get your perspective on a few things.

It seems that treating the forest as if it was a structure was a mistake. Incidentally, that was 100% my idea. It doesn't seem to matter what spell effects or special attributes we may apply to the terrain, there is a suspension of disbelief speed-bump when the terrain acts as a wall, ceiling, or a door. Somehow that doesn't come across as magic, just dues ex machina. Am I summing that up correctly, from your point-of-view?

Secondly, thinking about how this might have been written differently, tell me if this would have worked. We remove the barriers of the forest, and allow the PCs to explore more freely—with the caveat that the Hut cannot be accessed until certain goals have been accomplished. Those goals require the PCs to go all over the map. Would that have worked better?
Bear in mind, certain things *need* to take place.
A.) Entering the Hut should be a final event.
B.) There have to be encounters on the map so PCs can acquire XP.
C.) There should be reason to explore most of the map. (Maps are a precious Designer resource, they should never be wasted)

So removing the barriers to exploration, even though you might encounter Nahzena early, would be better? (not a trick question, no sarcasm, I mean it at face value)

Is there any special qualities that we could have added to the Forest which would have passed the "sniff test"? You see, with an open architecture you run the risk of monsters overhearing a fight happening 50 feet away and "glomming" on to another encounter, spiking the CR and overwhelming the party. That can't really happen at Thistletop, Smuggler's Shiv, or Rivers Run Red, because those outdoor encounters are separated by miles. Separating the encounters is an element of pacing. (OOPS! I'm litigating the review, sorry, but it leads me to this next important question) Could I have added an illusory quality that didn't prohibit exploration but limited sight and sound? To avoid the dogpile phenomenon. Like a hallucinatory terrain effect?

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I want to earn that fifth star next time!

It seems that treating the forest as if it was a structure was a mistake. Incidentally, that was 100% my idea. It doesn't seem to matter what spell effects or special attributes we may apply to the terrain, there is a suspension of disbelief speed-bump when the terrain acts as a wall, ceiling, or a door. Somehow that doesn't come across as magic, just dues ex machina. Am I summing that up correctly, from your point-of-view?

I think that's definitely the case, in terms of impression. I think there are instances where it could be done (never say never!) but I don't think this wound up being one of them. I come from a design mindset where player capabilities as they rise in level should be accounted for and expected to be used (even encouraged), rather than finding ways to shut those abilities down. If you're writing an adventure for 15th-level characters, expect them to use things like teleportation and high-level divination magic that could shut down or instantly solve certain plot elements. Don't stonewall them for using the powers they worked hard to get, work with them. That remains true all the way down to 1st-level.

Secondly, thinking about how this might have been written differently, tell me if this would have worked. We remove the barriers of the forest, and allow the PCs to explore more freely—with the caveat that the Hut cannot be accessed until certain goals have been accomplished. Those goals require the PCs to go all over the map. Would that have worked better?

Bear in mind, certain things *need* to take place.
A.) Entering the Hut should be a final event.
B.) There have to be encounters on the map so PCs can acquire XP.
C.) There should be reason to explore most of the map. (Maps are a precious Designer resource, they should never be wasted)

In this instance I think that may have worked better. If I had to redesign this particular encounter, I would have placed Nazhena inside the hut, busy working on a way for either herself (if it fit her ambitions to try and overhadow her mother), her mother, or even Elvanna to be able to use the hut to its fullest extent (perhaps with the intention of uncovering some great secret Baba Yaga locked inside the hut, like the one hinted at in the preview of the last module of the AP).

Depending on the number of encounters needed (we'll say 8), I would've broken down the area as follows:

6 encounters that are integral to opening the hut. Nazhena had either the door sealed or the hut pacified in order to keep the Black Rider from getting inside. Nazhena may not be aware that the Black Rider died and passed on his mantle, after all. If she is, then that lock works just as good to keep the PCs out. After completing these six encounters the seal on the hut is broken.

2 of the other encounters are optional, and part of a final encounter strategy. The last 2 encounters are ritual magic/minor artifacts/what have you that are empowering Nazhena to allow her to do her work in the hut. Perhaps one artifact/site grants her the ability to teleport between available rooms in the hut as a move action, and another artifact/site allows her to control the hut's interior to a limited degree (making difficult terrain, locking doors, creating animated objects, etc).

The PCs can elect to handle these encounters and strip Nazhena of some additional abilities that make the fight with her harder, or they can save their resources and battle a stronger (maybe +1 CR bump to accomodate) Nazhena inside the hut itself.

Obviously the number of encounters/nature of encounters would need to be balanced against the XP budget needed to get the PCs to the desired level.

This presents Nazhena as being active[i] in attempting to accomplish a goal that the PCs can disrupt rather than appearing [i]passively engaged with the fey incursion. If you wanted to keep the fey angle, you could have Nazhena have enslaved fey to her will to serve as portions of this ritual/plot device.

Heck, you could even keep the reality siphon as the means by which the hut has been pacified, but instead of being a plug in a doorway, it encompasses the entire hut like a globe, separating it from the material plane to isolate Nazhena and give her more time to work/utilize first world energies in her/her mothers/her grandmother's plan.

So removing the barriers to exploration, even though you might encounter Nahzena early, would be better? (not a trick question, no sarcasm, I mean it at face value)

Unless there was a mandate that Nazhena had to be encountered outside of the hut (and I would've argued against that, honestly), I would say putting her inside is the superior choice. I mean, there's already an encounter in the hut after Nazhena anyway.

Is there any special qualities that we could have added to the Forest which would have passed the "sniff test"? You see, with an open architecture you run the risk of monsters overhearing a fight happening 50 feet away and "glomming" on to another encounter, spiking the CR and overwhelming the party. That can't really happen at Thistletop, Smuggler's Shiv, or Rivers Run Red, because those outdoor encounters are separated by miles. Separating the encounters is an element of pacing. (OOPS! I'm litigating the review, sorry, but it leads me to this next important question) Could I have added an illusory quality that didn't prohibit exploration but limited sight and sound? To avoid the dogpile phenomenon. Like a hallucinatory terrain effect?

Have each "encounter" site overlay with the First World. Sound cannot travel outside of the planar boundaries, the barriers have become thinner there so they are technically extraplanar regions. Once you cross a certain threshhold you are no longer in the material and can't hear out. Sort of like a faerie ring, toadstools and the like. In fact, that's even the trope you could use. 20-foot diameter faerie rings that lead into larger "partitions" of the first world. All you have to do is walk through the boundaries and you hopscotch across planes. It's like rooms, but not quite the same.

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I want to earn that fifth star next time!

I don't think that'll be a hard goal to reach, Jim. If I could've given you 4.5 stars I would have.

I have to qualify how I say that, because being a worshiper of Milani is not a prerequisite to be a Herald (many druids are Heralds for example). The Heralds don't just operate out of Whitethrone either. However the two go together like peas and carrots.

If you're looking for a strong connection between the two in the AP, for the purposes of a PC's background—the PC is on very safe ground. The Heralds that the PCs actually encounter in the AP are led by a Milani cleric and their secret headquarters is also Milani shrine. Can't get close than that!

However, she can't just not take them. Much like you have to take an orange rind or a banana peel if you want the tasty fruit that comes with them.

You see, the process by which Baba Yaga 'devours' the life force of her daughter would send that daughter's power to that daughter's immediate children. The only way to circumvent and ensure that Baba Yaga gets the life force for herself is to take not only the daughter but all the grandchildren as well.

So the power flows from the daughter to the grandchildren. Baba Yaga needs to take the grandchildren in order to short-circuit that.

Again, I'm not sure where this is explained, but this is how it was explained to the authors in the master outline.