Abderrahmane Zagora

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Thread necromancy!

You have my thanks as well. How has the AP worked out for you?

Warning! Possible spoilers for Jade Regent!
This may not be the right forum for this question, as it could be considered a fantasy linguistics question rather than a Pathfinder specific question.

I'm playing a summoner in Jade Regent and my eidolon is a minor aspect/avatar of Shizuru, Minkaian goddess of the sun, honor, ancestors, and swordplay. What Japanese-style honorific should be applied to the end of my eidolon's name given that she is an aspect/avatar of (essentially) a celestial kami?

I figure the answer will probably have to be invented, but I also figure that a helpful speaker and/or scholar of Japanese could come up with something better than what I could come up with in my ignorance. So, anyone around that could help me out, or at least point me to a better place to ask?

1) This could definitely work. I just need to think of an appropriate reoccurring event, since I don't think Kakishon has a moon. Some arcane convergence, or the various elemental seeds syncing up in harmony. I don't consider using the 1001 Nights trope necessary, just a nice bonus to include if feasible.

2) My conception of Jhavhul has an ego of epic proportions. I doubt he could contain his contempt for the PCs or any other lesser mortals long enough to play the good host for any significant length of time.

Also, there's still the problem of how to keep the PCs from going to other islands and talking to any of the other NPCs who know what Jhavhul is up to. Although, if they were to travel to the other islands as Jhavhul's guests, they would surely be provided with a guide/chaperone. Artel Norrin and the xorn would be reluctant to tell the PCs the truth about their host for fear of reprisals from Jhavhul's forces. If the PCs were to show up at Nex's tomb in the company of an efreeti, Venema Shodair would be inclined to see them as intruders and fight to defend the tomb rather than talk. Jhavhul could plausibly discourage the PCs from visiting Khandelwal: "Why would you want to go there so soon after your arrival? Surely you've had your fill of sand and heat in Katapesh. Let me show you the Mermaid's Necklace instead. There the sun and sand come with a crystal blue lagoon and tropical fruits with flesh sweet as honey."

That leaves the proteans in Andakami, but if the PCs insist on visiting them, they could plausibly be in on Jhavhul's con. They want all non-natives of Kakishon gone so they can finally tear down their prison. Jhavhul and his forces are the largest set of non-natives and the easiest and safest way to get rid of such a formidable force would be to just let them escape, or even help them escape.

This idea may be more helpful than I initially supposed. My thanks, Rubber Ducky guy.

However, this should not discourage anyone else from chiming in with ideas.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm currently GMing Legacy of Fire for the second time. My players are about to enter Kakishon and begin Part 4.

When the first group and I finished Legacy of Fire, I asked them what they thought of the adventure path and how it could have been improved. Their biggest thing they thought could be improved was more time to see the sights in Kakishon. As they put it, Kakishon was built up like it was Disneyland, but as soon as the PCs get to Kakishon, Jhavhul escapes and gets back to his evil plan, and the PCs are like, "We have to get the hell out of Disneyland!" to stop him. They wanted more time to explore the fantastic vistas of Kakishon, without being under the time pressure of needing to escape as soon as possible. For instance, one of the player characters had lived in the hot climate of Katapesh his whole life and had never seen snow before, so he was looking forward to visiting Aliskiren, but he never got the chance, because once they found out what Jhavhul was planning to do from Dilix Mahad, they spent all their time and effort finding a way out of Kakishon.

The second area of potential improvement regarded the heroes relationship with Jhavhul. The PCs had explored the House of the Beast--Jhavhul's headquarters for his scheme, Kakishon--Jhavhul's prison, and Bayt al Bazan--Jhavhul's home, and had spoken with Dilix Mahad, Obherak, Shazathared, and Nefeshti, so the PCs knew a great deal about Jhavhul even though they had only seen him once, literally in passing as they were falling into Kakishon and he was flying out. Jhavhul, on the other hand, has little to no idea who the PCs are. If there had been any significant conversation before the final encounter in The Final Wish, Jhavhul's part in it would have gone something like this (in more elevated language): "So you're the heroes these pathetic mortals keep whimpering will save them. Wait, you're the fools who let me out of Kakishon. How did you get out of Kakishon? You know what? I don't care, because I'm about to become the Firebleeder and get busy with Ymeri. Almah, speak the final wish or I will torment and kill you." Because of this, the epic finale of the entire Legacy of Fire adventure path ended up being kind of impersonal.

I'd like to try rectifying these issues for my second group of players by altering Part 4, The End of Eternity, allowing my new PCs to explore the wonders of Kakishon without apparent time pressure, and providing an establishing encounter with Jhavhul. I have some ideas on how to pull this off, but would appreciate suggestions on how to avoid potential pitfalls.

My ideas so far: Jhavhul needs something from the PCs to escape Kakishon, namely the ruby tuning fork they got from the Captain of the Sunset Ship. I'm making it the planar key to Kakishon, essentially. However, I need a reason to avoid having what I think would be a very unsatisfying encounter in which Jhavhul and his army just jump the PCs at their earliest convenience, take the key by force, and then kthnxbai, Jhavhul out. So I'm thinking the key just magically can't be taken by force, that seems like a worthwhile security feature for Nex to have installed. To get the key, Jhavhul and his forces must trick the PCs into freely giving to them or placing it in a particular location so the efreet can grab it unattended.

There is a trope that appears several times in The 1001 Nights in which a fortunate traveler finds a fantastic place where they can receive everything they want: fine food to eat and wine to drink, the companionship of one or more beautiful ladies, wealth beyond measure, etc.; as long as they abide by some minor restriction like "for 27 days out of 30 I am yours, but during the three days when the efreeti comes you must not come near" or "these keys will open any door in the palace and everything within is yours, but you must not open the 40th door." Inevitably, the subject of the tale transgresses this restriction and loses it all. Player curiosity being what it is, I think I can get them to fall for or play along with this trope. The Pleasure Palace of Nex on the central island of Kakishon seems like a good place to try to have this go down. Dilix Mahad can play the welcoming host who warns the PCs not to enter the 40th chamber (or whatever the restriction ends up being). Inside the chamber will apparently be the PCs only way out of Kakishon, but when they insert the ruby tuning fork into the pedestal or portal or whatever, Jhavhul will swoop in, take the key, summon his army, betray Dilix, deliver some gloating, and escape Kakishon, stranding the PCs inside. Then The End of Eternity proceeds more or less as written, with the PCs seeking out the shaitans, the proteans, or both to find a way out of Kakishon before Jhavhul can complete his wishing scheme to transform himself into the Firebleeder.

There are some obvious potential pitfalls. There are several factions and individuals in Kakishon that know Jhavhul is trapped inside Kakishon, that know what he's up to, and that won't be in on the con, so to speak. If the PCs speak to the shaitans on Khandelwal, the xorn on Ismaizade, Venema Shodair on the Isle of the Dead, Artel Norrin in the Fireforge, or possibly even the proteans before being duped into freeing Jhavhul, the jig will be up.

This may be too tall an order. There are a few things the PCs must do, and several things they must not do, to make this change work. The sandbox nature of The End of Eternity is one of its great strengths, but to pull this off I'm going to have to lay some significant railroad track through the sandbox. I may be better off just running it as written despite the suggestions of my first set of players.

What do you all think? Do you have any advice or suggestions on how I might be able to allow the PCs to explore Kakishon without time pressure, but still ensure that they accidentally free Jhavhul and his army, without being too heavy-handed with the railroading? Or should I just run it as written?

Toadkiller Dog wrote:

Too bad. I'd so so so like to see a picture of Nex...

So, three and a half years later, is there any way to find a full-sized version of that picture of Nex from page 7 of Inner Sea Magic? Has it been used in any subsequent releases?

soul31 wrote:
We are looking at alternatives right now(two new ones in ACG yay:) ), the point is we don't want to have the same unpleasant surprise when we will start another path. So which AP need trapfinding and which one don't? All what we know that mummy mask and iron gods really needs one what about the others?

I've run Legacy of Fire once to completion, and now I'm GMing it again for a different group of players. By my last count, strictly speaking, there are eleven traps in the entire Adventure Path, including the optional set-pieces. There are a few other quasi-traps: obstacles or effects that a GM might rule that a character with Trapfinding could disable with an appropriate Disable Device check.

Chapter by Chapter Breakdown:

Part 1: Howl of the Carrion King
-None in the main path
-Set Piece: The Refuge of Nethys
--4. Chamber of Choices: Fireburst Statues - CR3
--5. Sanctuary of Inner Darkness: Altar of Fangs - CR2

Part 2: House of the Beast
-Grundmoch's Lair--C3. Courtyard: Falling Bricks - CR3
-The Great Dome--G2. The Western Atrium: Toxic Stair Spikes - CR2
-The Warrens--H16. Foyer: Primitive Guillotine - CR6
-J2. The Stone Speakers: Quasi-Trap, a GM might rule that one could disable the rast-summoning stone heads.

Part 3: The Jackal's Price
-None (Surprising for a chapter involving a thieves guild)

Part 4: The End of Eternity
-The Haunted Isle--B5. The Memorial Ground: Quasi-Trap - One might be able to disable the magical protections on Nex's mausoleum with an agreeable GM.

Part 5: The Impossible Eye
-Dungeons of Fire
--A1. Hazneh: Quasi-Trap - A GM might let you disable the damaging, teleporting, brass-man-summoning fire curtains.
--A5. Trapped Corridor: Pit Trap - CR1
--A6. Magnetic Cylinder: Spinning Cylinder Trap - CR10 (These are really one trap; the spinning cylinder is your punishment for falling into the pit.)
-Faith in the Flame--C8. Trapped Chamber: Molten Brass Trap - CR10

Part 6: The Final Wish
-Siege of the Brazen Tower--B5. Gallery of Lightning: Gallery of Lightning - CR9
-Return to Pale Mountain--The Stone Speakers: Dead Man's Breath - CR10
-Legacy of Fire--D9. Xotani's Tears: Xotani's Tears - CR14

Since they potentially involve immersion in lava, the Hazneh fire curtains and Xotani's Tears are by a significant margin the most worryingly deadly.

All of those traps can be avoided or bypassed by means other than a character with Trapfinding making a Disable Device check. I don't think a party needs a dedicated trap disabler for Legacy of Fire.

This may come months too late for the original poster, but maybe it will be a useful to someone else. I think I'm only sufficiently familiar with Legacy of Fire. If someone else wants to post this sort of information about other Adventure Paths for future guidelines, that would be great.

One possible wrinkle to consider is that by default your PCs work for the Pactmasters, indirectly. The PCs work for Almah; Almah works for the Pactmasters. If you start interfering with the slave trade, you'll kind of be betraying your employer.

A cleric or paladin of Sarenrae is just about a perfect fit for the themes and plot of Legacy of Fire, but is not necessary or required.

Freedom versus imprisonment and slavery is an important, recurring theme in Legacy of Fire, so a cleric of Desna would be a good fit, just not a perfect fit.

My takeaway from all that was that gnoll politics are just as treacherous as human politics. Perhaps Narg is leading a splinter faction of the Three Jaws against the Kulldis because of his own outrage about their impurity. Perhaps the Three Jaws leadership thinks the prize of controlling Kelmarane outweighs the punishment the Carrion King would mete out for conflict among his vassals. Maybe the Carrion King doesn't really like Kardswann leading one of his tribes and sent the Three Jaws to kill him and put a gnoll back in charge of Kelmarane. Maybe Rokova (the real Rokova at this point) thinks the Three Jaws have grown too powerful in their position as the Carrion King's favored enforcers, so he sent them false orders to trick them into attacking the Kulldis, which would piss off the Carrion King and cause the Three Jaws to lose favor and possibly be destroyed by the Carrion King's wrath.

A Game of Carrion Thrones?

Haidar's statblock is wrong. The set pieces were notoriously poorly edited (it's one of the reasons Paizo stopped including them). Even if Haidar's curse was normal lycanthropy (which it is not), Haidar would be an afflicted lycanthrope (note that he's only got DR 5/silver), and as the 3.5 SRD explicitly states, "Afflicted lycanthropes cannot pass on the curse of lycanthropy." The only way one of your PCs should be contracting lycanthropy is by failing the Fort save after confirming a crit with En-Nebi.

The PCs made it all the way to the end of the nastiest dungeon the campaign has yet thrown at them. There's supposed to be a valuable pile of loot at the end, including some nice equipment the PCs are more likely to use than sell.

In additon, the first half of The Jackal's Price is rather light on treasure. Don't think of Shirak's loot as blowing out the curve for 7th level; think of it as front-loading the treasure for 8th.

Your help is much appreciated, but the campaign is currently kind of far from oceans or other large bodies of water and not in the deep Darklands. I'll reskin an aboleth if necessary, but if anyone can think of something more landlocked and surface-dwelling, that would be great.

Perhaps someone here could help a GM out. I'm looking for a monster that could keep a group of mortal humans supernaturally enslaved for several centuries. So beyond just being able to enslave them, it needs to be able to extend these humans' lifespans or transform them into some other creature that can be its slaves forever.

My group of 5 level-5 PCs will be arriving to free these slaves (or at least their spirits) from centuries of bondage, so the slavemaster monster needs to be around CR5 to CR8.

Is there already a creature in one of the Bestiaries that could fill this role (perhaps with spellcasting or magic item aid)? Or will I need to create a new custom monster to meet my needs?


I saw your excellent Onyx Hall interlude right after I posted my request. It's exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.

Please pardon the thread necromancy. I'm running Legacy of Fire for the second time, and this time I'd also like to add in some mini adventures during the year or so of downtime between Howl of the Carrion King and House of the Beast.

I'd like to showcase some of the wish-altered weirdness of the region, to let the PCs experience some of the consequences of wishes that Jhavhul granted during his quest to become the Firebleeder 400 years prior. To that end, I'm changing some of the background to the locales and adventure seeds mentioned in "In the Shadow of Pale Mountain" in House of the Beast so that they're the results of wishes granted by Jhavhul.

Litha Vale seems the easiest. When the vale under her protection was threatened by Jhavhul's army, Orlass journeyed to the House of the Beast to wish for "the power to prevent Litha Vale from ever burning, no matter what may assail it." Jhavhul granted her wish by transforming her into a nigh-immortal medusa with the power to petrify the entire vale, for stone may melt, but it won't burn.

Similarly, the curse on Onyx Hall will have come from a wish granted by Jhavhul. The PCs will have to venture there and find out just what "dwell in bondage until the stones themselves burn like a pyre" means.

I could use some help brainstorming ideas for other locales though, the Hammerfalls, for instance. What did some foolish, ambitious, or greedy dwarves wish for that doomed their community? What will be left for the PCs to find?

What about Marudshar? What twisted wish (or wishes) could have resulted in that forsaken temple complex and those unnatural lions that guard it?

Keep in mind that whatever we come up with, it's got to be something that a party of 5th-level PCs could experience the aftermath of and 1) have a better than decent chance of surviving, 2) give them a hint that strange and powerful magics were at work in the region hundreds of years ago, 3) but not give them so much information that it gives away Jhavhul's wish scheme early, and 4) doesn't give them so much treasure or such powerful treasure that it throws off the difficulty curve for the rest of the adventure path.

Anyone have some ideas?

I'd recommend Monkey Style to represent your awesome ground moves like windmills and flares (take no penalties while prone, no AoOs while standing up or crawling, and stand up with a swift action with a successful DC20 Acrobatics check). Unfortunately, you said you're dumping Wis so you won't meet the prerequisites. You could take a level of Master of Many Styles Monk to take it as a bonus feat and ignore the prereqs.

So many jokes...

So you're saying the Golden Ram got blue-balled.

What, is the druid allergic to goldenrod?

I hear this monster drops a powerful staff. Or was it a fully charged wand?

I guess I'd better save some material for other posters.

I suggest mixing in a few conjuration spells.

I know you want to focus on illusions, but consider that someone who lies all the time is not an effective liar. Most people who hear him will know to expect that he's lying, and thus he won't fool anyone. You have to mix in some truth to keep people guessing.

In the case of an illusionist, some of the things you make appear out of thin air need to be real. That silent image of a greenish-yellow cloud will be all the more effective if your opponent has felt the pain of a real acid fog. Alternatively, if you cast the illusion first and they figure it out, you can sucker them into running headlong into the real thing.

Conjurations, of course, affect vermin, plants, undead, and constructs with no problem.

Yeah, I think your pyromaniac sorcerers will be having problems during the final third of Legacy of Fire.

Part Five is like 85% fire immune enemies, and half of what's left is fire resistant to some degree. Part Six isn't quite that bad, but it's still probably 50% fire immune enemies, with an additional 35% fire resistant.

Having GMed Legacy of Fire, I think a horse or other large sized mount will cause you some problems. In the first half of the AP you'll have to deal with five- and ten-foot wide corridors and doorways, ten-foot wide vertical shafts, spiral staircases, and other cramped environments. In the second half of the AP, the environments open up significantly, but you'll want to be flight-capable at that point.

Congratulations Jim!

I had an idea. I think one could switch The End of Eternity and The Impossible Eye. In other words, make TIE part 4 of Legacy of Fire and make TEoE part 5.

It would be a lot of work of course. One would have to adjust the encounters in TEoE up a couple of levels and the encounters in TIE down a couple levels. One would also have to significantly change the story during The Impossible Eye.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Instead of The Jackal's Price ending with Rayhan activating the Scroll of Kakishon, part 3 ends with the Scroll stolen by an extraplanar thief who absconds with it to the Plane of Fire. The thief is working on behalf of Jhavhul's brother. In this scenario, the various attacks and disasters that rendered Bayt al-Bazan cursed and haunted did not happen centuries ago, they happened only a couple weeks ago, sometime simultaneous with the events of The Jackal's Price.

After the PCs find the Scroll and bring it to the city of Katapesh, word spreads quickly of the legendary artifact's rediscovery, including to another hub of interplanar trade, the City of Brass. Al-hassan and Ezer Hazzebaim both bear a grudge against Jhavhul and they want the Scroll to make sure he remains imprisoned forever and so that they can smile and gloat over his prison. Some time shortly after the PCs get to the city of Katapesh, Al-hassan sends his thief (perhaps a member of the Flickering Candle) across the planes to Katapesh while he and Ezer continue their plans to steal the Impossible Eye from the grand vizier.

Then everything pretty much goes to hell for them as described in the adventure background for The Impossible Eye. Marids attack Bayt al-Bazan and kill Al-hassan, Ezer's theft of the Impossible Eye goes catastrophically wrong, the vizier's curse comes down, the palace staff rises as undead, and everyone gets trapped inside the citadel.

Meanwhile in Katapesh, the thief (who perhaps replaces the captain of the Sunset Ship as Father Jackal's client (Ezer would certainly be interested in the emkrah after all)) goes about acquiring the Scroll from the PCs. The thief has no idea about what has happened in Bayt al-Bazan until he transports back to the hazneh, deposits the Scroll there, and then heads up to the palace to find everything in shambles.

After having the Scroll stolen from them, the PCs must follow the thief to the City of Brass to get it back (perhaps at the behest of Pazhvann, the Templar who is otherwise missing from the AP). To get the PCs into Bayt al-Bazan's hazneh to start The Impossible Eye, one could use a modified version of the part 5 set piece, Beyond the Chain of Fire. A decent amount of interplanar trade takes place in Katapesh, so it shouldn't be difficult to justify a small azer presence in the city, including a small azer temple that rumors say contains a secret planar portal. If the PCs can get the azers to help them, or if they can figure it out themselves, they can use Jaznir-al-Nar's power to transport to the same location as the last traveler to use the Chain of Fire. Since Al-hassan's thief was the previous traveler, the PCs will emerge in Bayt al-Bazan's hazneh, just as he did.

From there, The Impossible Eye proceeds more or less as normal, just adjusted two levels down. After the PCs recover the Scroll from the hazneh and complete The Impossible Eye, they can take the Scroll back to Rayhan to activate it. Alternatively, if the PCs seem to want to get rid of the Scroll at that point, the lifting of the vizier's curse can interact strangely with the Scroll and cause it to activate unexpectedly, sucking the PCs into Kakishon and releasing Jhavhul. Either way, after that, The End of Eternity proceeds more or less as normal, just adjusted two levels up.

This idea has its drawbacks, of course. Besides all the work it would take to make The Impossible Eye a 9th-to-11th adventure and The End of Eternity an 11th-to-13th adventure, there are story issues. One would still be subjecting the PCs to two "escape from the planar prison" plots in a row, they just wouldn't be nested inside each other in this version and the time pressure of "Jhavhul's escaped, get back home before he resurrects the Firebleeder" doesn't get introduced until part 5 instead of part 4. However, this version does mean that there is an additional "thieves try to steal the Scroll of Kakishon" plot, only this time the thief succeeds. After The Jackal's Price, that could feel really tedious for the PCs.

What do you all think?

TheSideKick wrote:
a good dip class for a rogue is oracle. take waves spec with the haunted curse, and the water sight ability. then cast obscuring mist and shoot arrows out of the mist for auto sneak attack damage. then you can ignore most of the "best rogue feats" like improved feint ect...

I was also going to suggest the somewhat-cheesy one-level oracle-of-waves dip to create the misty sniper, but absolutely do not take the haunted curse on any character that will be engaging in ranged combat. As far as I can tell, ammunition counts with regard to "retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action." Unless I'm wrong, that means you could get off a shot once every other round at best. The tongues curse is the least painful, but this character could get away with the wasting curse as well.

I think at least one arcane caster is definitely a must-have.

As written, Part 6 assumes at least one teleport on the part of the PCs.

At one point in Part 5, in order to escape from the bowels of Jhavhul's palace into the main citadel, the PCs must spot a DC 30 hidden door near the ceiling on the far side of a 90-ft. diameter pool of magma, then fly across the pool, open the door, and navigate up a smooth, slanted garbage chute.

Also, the climactic fight against Jhavhul in Part 6 takes place above a lake of lava. Not on a platform above a lake of lava, in midair above a lake of lava. Also the lake of lava is trying to reach up and grab the heroes.

Given these obstacles, as many PCs as possible should be capable of flight by the later parts of the AP. There is a flying carpet and a couple of potions of fly as treasure earlier in the AP, but the carpet only holds two Medium creatures and the potions are single-use.

I highly recommend at least one of the PCs be spellcaster capable of casting fly, beast shape, air walk, or some other flight-granting spell several times per day. And because of all the fire damage, resist energy and/or protection from energy will also be invaluable in Parts 5 and 6.

I would recommend against gunslingers. There are significant sections of Legacy of Fire during which the PCs are cut off from shopping opportunities, particularly Parts 4 and 5. A gunslinger is likely to run out of bullets and black powder--or the supplies to make them--during these sections.

Moreover, black powder explodes when exposed to fire, and the PCs will definitely be exposed to fire in this AP.

Also consider the prevalence of environmental heat in Legacy of Fire. Cavaliers, summoners, witches, and any other characters that have an additional creature as one of their class features have to expend twice as much effort to proof themselves against the heat. Otherwise their animal companions, eidolons, or familiars will pass out from heatstroke or burn to death. Its not worth completely disallowing these classes over, but the GM and the players need to keep this factor in mind.

And to add another reason to avoid summoners:

The fact that Kakishon is cut off from the other planes and very difficult to leave makes the summoner's ability to call and dismiss his eidolon, a specific extraplanar outsider, very problematic.

Finally, a note on witches, specifically the Slumber Hex: Legacy of Fire seems to have a lower proportion of undead and other enemies that are immune to mind-affecting in general or sleep specifically. The witch's Slumber Hex can be used to great effect throughout this AP, even more so than in other campaigns. Not something to prohibit witches over, but something to keep in mind.

Suzaku wrote:

Now that I think about it because Native outsiders are a subtype of an Outsider. Which means for one package they gain

Darkvision 60 feet.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. (Multiple weapon training)
Immune to X person spells like Charm, Dominate person or any spell that targets humanoids.

The only cons are they do not benefit from Enlarge person.

Reduce Person is a rarely used buff for some classes like sorcerers, wizards, or medium-sized rogues.

In addition, when a native outsider uses disguise self or a hat of disguise she can only make herself appear as another outsider, not as a humanoid. Outrageous as it seems, an aasimar--which naturally appears very nearly human--can magically disguise herself as a hell hound more easily than as a human.

But I agree--the drawbacks of being a native outsider are few and situational.

DM Dan E wrote:

+1 lawful outsider bane

My group has recently come into possession of this. They're immediate reaction was to put it on the sell list and my reaction to that was to wonder if they'd regret their choice later.

Turns out though that the actual list of lawful outsiders is very short. Devils essentially and not a lot of those in the AP.

I find myself wondering whether under 3.5 rules lawful outsider literally meant outsiders of lawful alignment (which would say have included efreet).

Any thoughts?

I changed it to a +1 fire outsider bane greataxe in my campaign. Since Kardswann was one of the Templars of the Five Winds, I figured his axe was enchanted to help him fight efreet.

Kajehase wrote:
Why not just get the Legacy of Fire Player's Guide?

You misunderstand. I have the Legacy of Fire Player's Guide. However, Paizo did not start including specific recommendations for each class--things like what favored enemies would be most useful to a ranger, what domains best fit the themes of the campaign for a cleric, which archetypes are most appropriate, and which skills will be the most handy--until the Kingmaker Player's Guide.

I would like to supplement the information in the Legacy of Fire Player's Guide by giving my players these sorts of recommendations myself. I have already run the entirety of Legacy of Fire once, so I know how the themes of the AP work out. The list of appropriate deities was fairly easy to come up with. I've already totaled up the number of encounters involving each of the categories of ranger favored enemies so I know what recommendations to make there (unsurprisingly outsider (fire) and humanoid (gnoll) came out on top).

I'm not sure how to go about the skill recommendations. Should I just eyeball it? That seems so imprecise. Do I really need to count up every instance of every skill check? That seems excessively tedious and it can't be the way Paizo does it because, if I'm not mistaken, the final parts of an adventure path may not be completely written by the time the Player's Guide for that AP is published.

So I'm wondering how Paizo does it. Is there a shorthand method for estimating which skills, archetypes, and class features will be most useful? Do they give the early parts of each adventure path extra weight when making these recommendations? Etc.

What is the methodology used to make the recommendations for each class in the newer Adventure Path Player's Guides? Is there a particular way you decide which archetypes, skills, etc. to suggest?

I will be running Legacy of Fire for the second time starting in a couple months, and I'd like to give my players similar recommendations.

Well, it was a lot of fuss over nothing. I ran the finale yesterday and my players never got the chance to enact the screw plan.

Jhavhul blinded the fighter and the monk with pyrotechnics on the second round. The cleric was grappled by the lava tentacles then bull rushed off his flying carpet into the lava lake. In general, my players were too busy scrambling just to survive to even think of jamming the screw in Jhavhul's neck.

In the end they managed to pull off a narrow, comeback victory. The wizard got 80 points of electricity damage (prismatic spray) past Jhavhul's spell resistance and saves. The sorcerer/dragon disciple fished the cleric out of the lava just in time to save him. Then the sorc/DD luckily dispelled Jhavhul's invisibility allowing the wizard to target him with boneshatter. And the blind monk and fighter each got highly damaging lucky hits in spite of high AC and miss chance. An epic fight to end an epic campaign.

Insta-kill is not on the table. A significant amount of damage is. I'm just not sure how much.

Hudax wrote:
That is so friggin awesome.

I know right! It's also silly and potentially final-encounter-breaking, but it's definitely awesome!

Hudax wrote:
But of course they will have to deal with the juggernaut if they succeed.

They are aware of this. They figure they can take out the juggernaut easily after Jhavhul's dead. They are in all likelihood correct. Plus, if Jhavhul is flying over the lava pool when they enact the plan, the juggernaut will just fall in.

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My players have come up with a very unusual plan to attack Jhavhul. I think I'm going to need help deciding how to adjudicate it.

Back in Kakishon, my PCs played peacemaker. They successfully convinced the shaitans to allow the proteans to escape Kakishon through the Earth Seed and convinced the proteans to trust the shaitans long enough to escape.

So in Bayt al-Bazan, the party had the proteans with them part of the time. Specifically, the PCs had protean help when they fought the brass juggernaut--the Gargantuan animated object of living brass that guards the only way out of the treasury level and up into the palace. Imentesh proteans can use polymorph any object once per day as a spell-like ability and one used this ability on the brass juggernaut. The animated object failed its save and was permanently transformed into a fine screw of living brass, still animated, but harmless. (What's it going to do? Roll around in little circles menacingly?)

My players scooped it up and put it in an empty potion vial. I thought they were just keeping it as a souvenir, even though we all joked about stabbing Jhavhul with it as a finishing move. (You got screwed!)

I was wrong. They actually intend to put this plan into action. They want to stab Jhavhul with the screw (or otherwise get it partway into his body), then cast dispel magic on it to turn it back into a gargantuan animated object, hopefully exploding Jhavhul as it expands.

I blame myself for putting this idea in their heads. I was the one who pointed out that permanent duration spells can be dispelled later.

While I think this is a very silly way for Jhavhul to go out, I don't actually want to just shut down this plan. I want to adjudicate it as fairly as possible, but I've never before encountered a comparable situation, so I'm asking for ideas and recommendations.

What sort of attack roll should I have the monk make to stab Jhavhul with the screw and make sure it stays imbedded in his flesh?

If they successfully imbed the screw and successfully cast dispel magic on it, should Jhavhul get some sort of Fortitude or Reflex save to avoid taking damage from the expanding object in his flesh?

Should a successful save halve the damage or negate it completely?

How much damage do you think it should do?

PCs: they just keep coming up with new ways to surprise you, don't they?

If your character is ridiculously wealthy, he could attempt to purchase a dose of Sun Orchid Elixir every year.

A wish could transform him into some sort of outsider. They don't usually age or die of natural causes.

He could always attempt the Trial of the Starstone.

I don't know if my players will want to continue playing beyond the end of The Final Wish, but I have a few ideas about where to take them if they do.

I intend to push the PCs toward the continuation that takes them to the Elemental Plane of Water to permanently destroy the Firebleeder by drowning its heart in the deepest, darkest, coldest part of the plane.

The Captain of the Sunset Ship, who disappeared with the emkrah back in The Jackal's Price, will steal the heart to use as the primary ingredient in a ritual to mutate the emkrah into a new Firebleeder.

I haven't yet figured out why the captain wants to do this yet, but the reason should be suitably inscrutable.

Among the Gears of Madness, by Sean McGowan

Are wrote:

That's your answer, then. If they weigh near a ton, then the players won't be able to transport them anywhere :)

My PCs have access to Shrink Item.

Don't worry about it though, I've determined what I think are reasonable values that will get my PCs where I think they need to be treasure-wise.

By assuming the curtains are made of cloth of copper/gold/platinum instead of pure copper/gold/platinum and assuming they consist of 4 parts copper to 2 parts gold to 1 part platinum, I've come up with 50,000gp for all the curtains. Still ridiculously opulent, but at least not bank-breaking.

For the deed to Bayt al-Bazan, they'll get about 100,000gp. That's only a tiny fraction of the citadel's worth, but my PCs will be trying to sell a property they haven't been legally recognized as owning, that's known for being cursed and haunted, for cash, in like two days max. They will have to accept whatever liquid assets the buyer has on hand.

They'll get a few thousand each for the other valuable objects in Jhavhul's room and 8000gp for the orb of Ymeri's breath (they didn't keep the perpetual flame from the treasury).

I've gone through the arduous process of adding up all the treasure my party has collected, comparing to the wealth by level table, making some estimates, and generally figuring out where they are wealth-wise compared to where I want them to be. I have sizable margin to make the items in question (and the orb of Ymeri's breath, which I forgot about in my last post) impressively valuable without giving my PCs too much.

Also, I did some quick and dirty estimates and calculations about those curtains. Long story short, they are ludicrously heavy and even more ridiculously valuable. They each weigh near a ton and are worth hundreds of thousands of gp just by weight of precious metals alone!

I'm going change my assumptions about the thickness and density of the weave and the proportion of copper to gold and platinum, then recalculate and hopefully get a more reasonable result.

My players have collected some valuable items in Bayt al-Bazan that they intend to sell once they escape, but the value of these items is not mentioned in the adventure. I don't expect anyone to be able to give me exact prices for these things, but some ballpark estimates or guidelines for pricing them myself would be nice.

In area F2, my players used adamantine weapons to cut down the "shimmering curtains of gold, platinum, and copper thread woven with patterns that ripple like waterfalls of liquid metal." Even if there was no artistry to these curtains (and there seems to be significant artistic value to them), they would be worth their weight in the precious metals they're made of, and each of these curtains is at least 15 feet wide by 25 feet tall.

In F3, there's the golden censer, the "elaborate tea service and hookah," and the tapestries on the walls. While the tapestries are specific to the al-Bazan family, my players still might try to sell them. They've already collected the tea service and hookah. I don't know what those items are made of or how well they are made, but I can only assume they should be representative of Jhavhul's opulent taste, likewise with the censer.

And then there's the deed to Bayt al-Bazan. The adventure tells the amount of money the PC's will have to pay in bribes to keep the citadel, but my PC's don't want to keep it. They want to sell it as quickly as possible, and the adventure gives no clue as to how much they could get for it.

Any suggestions?

Should Iavesk, the hostage djinni, be fatigued and suffering nonlethal damage in addition to being feebleminded? I can't find any reason he shouldn't be suffering from heat exhasution due to the high ambient temperature of the City of Brass. He is neither immune nor resistant to fire, nor does he have any kind of endure elements effect. Are the Flickering Candle keeping him cool somehow?

Elemental subtypes do matter.

If a character attempted to summon a hell hound or salamander on the Plane of Water, would that character need to make a concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) to cast the spell successfully due to Impeded Fire Magic?

If a character summons such creatures on the Plane of Fire, do they last 2 additional rounds due to increased caster level caused by Enhanced Fire Magic?

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

The subtypes listed next to hell hound, salamander, and xill entries on Table 10-1, the summon monster table, do not exactly match the elemental and alignment subtypes these creatures have in their bestiary entries.

According to their bestiary entry, hell hounds have the fire subtype in addition to the evil and lawful subtypes. Only evil and lawful are listed on the summon monster table; fire is missing.

In their bestiary entry, salamanders have the fire subtype. Although their alignment is chaotic evil, salamanders have no alignment subtypes. In the salamander entry on the summon monster table, evil is listed and fire is not.

While they are of lawful evil alignment, xills have only the evil subtype in the bestiary. On the summon monster table, both evil and lawful are listed.

Should either the summon monster table or the bestiary entires be changed to remedy these inconsistencies?

karkon wrote:

I was engaging in a bit of an intellectual exercise regarding making really good rolls with really bad ones at creation. Then I wondered what race and class would make an amazing character at 20th. I thought it might be a nice thread.

I leaned toward a wizard, possibly elven with the 3s in cha and str.

A wizard with 3 Str would suffer medium encumbrance by weight just by wearing a scholar's outfit and carrying only a spellbook and spell component pouch.

Should I assume the living brass walls of Bayt al-Bazan are warded against ethereal travel?

I think that would be an important security feature for an efreeti pasha's citadel, but although the adventure mentions "wards and protections" in general, it doesn't specifically say anything about ethereal security.

I know ethereal travel can't be used to escape Bayt al-Bazan and the Vizier's Curse, but can it be used to bypass the citadel's interior walls?

For my own campaign, I've decided on 3256-3257 AR to be the period of time from Jhavhul finding Xotani's grave to Andrathi tearing open the Scroll of Kakishon.

Okay, I just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed a date tucked away in one of the articles in one of the Legacy of Fire books.

Just out of curiosity, what domains do you suppose Ymiri grants, besides Fire and Destruction? And what do you suppose her alignment is?

I'm not sure if this is a question that the adventure creators left intentionally unanswered, or if I just haven't been able to find the answer all the times I've scoured the Legacy of Fire books.

In what year did the battle between Jhavhul's and Nefeshti's armies take place?

So far all I've found for an answer is a vague "hundreds of years ago."

I don't buy that argument in this case for two reasons.

First, this feat is from the Monster Feats section of the Bestiary. If monsters were not intended to abide by these rules, then these rules wouldn't be in the Bestiary.

Second, I don't have a problem with particular monsters having an ability that breaks the rules/guidelines in particular ways. It's an exception-based system after all. But if you're going to give a monster an ability that it wouldn't normally qualify for, you just give them that ability. You don't have to also justify it by giving the monster a feat it doesn't qualify for.

In this case, you just give shaitans the spell-like ability to produce a glitterdust effect three times per day as a swift action. Why waste a feat choice if you're giving them this ability by designer fiat in the first place?

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