Paladin of Irori is neither the only paladin friendly NOR the only monk friendly option in this book.
In fact, one of my goals was to make sure that there was at least ONE cool choice for all of the base classes and all of the core races. There's a little doubling up here and there, but still.
How exactly does designing Prestige Classes work when you put race into consideration? Wouldn't a prestige class designed for, say two-handed weapon fighters, be equally useful in the hands of a human, half-orc, or dwarf fighter?
Or are we getting race-secific prestige classes with wider entry options?
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Since there a few, if not race-specific, at least, race-dominated, power groups in Golarion, such as the halfling-heavy Bellflower Network or the elf-heavy Lantern Bearers or the dwarf-heavy Ninth Battalion, perhaps that's the sort of place one might find a more-or-less race-specific Prestige Class.
Specific organizational or regional Prestige Class options that would be focused around gnomes, half elves or half orcs don't come to mind as readily, granted, although something relating to fey (perhaps getting one as a companion or familiar or cohort) and / or the First World and / or resisting (or embracing!) the Bleaching could fit the Golarion-specific gnome flavor, without necessarily connecting to a gnome organization or gnome nation (both of which are thin on the ground, at present).
See Inner Sea Magic :)
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Prediction: James and co. come up with 30 flavourful, fun but not overwhelming mechanically PrCs that serve more as enrichment of the world and less as vehicle for powergaming.
The community goes into blaaargh 1-star review outrage at PrCs not being a bunch of Ur-priests, Planar Shepherds and Abjurant Cheesecakes.
I really hope I'm wrong on *both* counts.
Creative Director
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Paladin of Irori is neither the only paladin friendly NOR the only monk friendly option in this book.
In fact, one of my goals was to make sure that there was at least ONE cool choice for all of the base classes and all of the core races. There's a little doubling up here and there, but still.
How exactly does designing Prestige Classes work when you put race into consideration? Wouldn't a prestige class designed for, say two-handed weapon fighters, be equally useful in the hands of a human, half-orc, or dwarf fighter?
Or are we getting race-secific prestige classes with wider entry options?
Designing a prestige class for "two handed fighters" is a philosophy that would work for a non-Golarion book, where we don't have world material to draw inspiration from.
In Golarion, each race has a pretty rich history of religions, traditions, philosophies, and the like that suggest all sorts of cool ideas for prestige classes. I suppose the Arcane Archer's SORT of a good example of how a race can inspire a prestige class.
In any case, none of these prestige classes will LIMIT themselves to having only members of a specific race. They'll just make more sense if you're of the correct race; if you're not, you'll need to work a little harder with your character's history and themes and all that in order to justify to your GM why your dwarf is taking the gnome-friendly class.
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Creative Director
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Fun stuff, and insta-buy for sure. We're not big Prestige Class players in my group, but this much extra Golarion fluff is so bought!
Any chance that an archetype book is next?
Archetypes are going to be appearing now and then in many of our books; there's a lot in Inner Sea Magic, for example. But in my opinion, archetypes are just TOO specialized to justify doing an entire book of them... especially since we've already done a bazillion of them in the hardcovers.
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Creative Director
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Prediction: James and co. come up with 30 flavourful, fun but not overwhelming mechanically PrCs that serve more as enrichment of the world and less as vehicle for powergaming.
The community goes into blaaargh 1-star review outrage at PrCs not being a bunch of Ur-priests, Planar Shepherds and Abjurant Cheesecakes.
I really hope I'm wrong on *both* counts.
My goal with this book is to come up with 30 flavorful, fun, and exciting prestige classes that do not include "player traps" (even though I think that what some folks think of as "player traps" are in fact "poor GM campaign expectation management failures," and that any prestige class, given the right campaign, can be fun), but in fact DO present ways to specialize your character so that he or she DOES become pretty good at whatever prestigious type of adventuring he or she wants to specialize in.
What I won't be doing are prestige classes that blatantly make it poor choices to not take the class, or prestige classes that blatantly just exist to up the power of everything a base class can do.
You WILL be giving up one element of your current class advancement when you prestige class, so that'll give folks plenty of reasons to complain I guess. Whether or not that causes the book to get a bevy of 1 star reviews... we'll see...
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Player Trap: Some made up crap where people think that not being the best at everything will take away the fun.
I love this idea. Its too bad I don't play in Golorian, as these classes look like they mesh with the world nicely, but you can bet I'll grab it and fit what I can into my own game an organizations. Making a PrCl that combines two other classes is pretty easy to do yourself. Making one though that fits into a specific role in the world is a lot harder, and just what we need the campaign people to work on.
Heck, The order of illumination was added to my campaign to support the two classes that were based on it that my players wanted to play. Now it is a huge [art of the story owning its own nation. Sometimes all it take as a little inspiration.
"Player-trap" or not, a viking prestige class would be pretty sweet.
My goal with this book is to come up with 30 flavorful, fun, and exciting prestige classes that do not include "player traps" (even though I think that what some folks think of as "player traps" are in fact "poor GM campaign expectation management failures," and that any prestige class, given the right campaign, can be fun), but in fact DO present ways to specialize your character so that he or she DOES become pretty good at whatever prestigious type of adventuring he or she wants to specialize in.
I know this is a tangent but, out of curiosity, as a fan of the Mystic Theurge PrC who is unable to play it (and isn't a fan of the Witch), where do you think the Mystic Theurge fits in the player trap/poor GM expection management divide?
I only ask because I'd love to play a Sorcerer/Oracle without the spectre of Admiral Akbar following me from gaming table to gaming table.
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I know this is a tangent but, out of curiosity, as a fan of the Mystic Theurge PrC who is unable to play it (and isn't a fan of the Witch), where do you think the Mystic Theurge fits in the player trap/poor GM expection management divide?
I only ask because I'd love to play a Sorcerer/Oracle without the spectre of Admiral Akbar following me from gaming table to gaming table.
Mystic Theurge is an ok character class if you (and the rest of the party) understand what you are getting into.
As a Sorcerer 4 / Oracle 4, the very weakest part of the progression, you are an 8th level character casting 2nd level spells. You are neither the party "wizard" nor the party "cleric", and are worse than a single-classed oracle in melee (1 less BAB, and unlikely to be wearing armour).
The party needs to have some other means of covering "wizard" and "cleric". Being able to cast both magic missile and cure light wounds is great, but there are times in the game when what the party really needs is a dimension door or a death ward, and you won't be able to supply them. So someone else needs to be able to, or the GM needs to adapt the adventures accordingly.
You will, however, have a ton of low level spells to choose from. I think it helps to come up with quirky stuff that a "proper" wizard would never bother with. Summon Monster I, for instance, can give you a handy minion for setting off traps and triggering ambushes. There's no point trying to compete with a full caster - burning hands is never going to be a replacement for fireball.
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On the subject of "trap" options, I think a trap option is if (say) a fighter 10 makes a better pirate than a fighter 5 / dread pirate 5 does.
It is not a trap option if a particular campaign (or even most campaigns) often take advantage of a class's weaknesses and rarely play to its strengths. It just makes the option particularly campaign specific.
I also consider it a trap option if an option makes a character significantly weaker, but not in a way that is immediately obvious. So a fighter archetype that (say) gives up all weapon and armour proficiencies in return for granting improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat is such an obvious bad deal that it hardly counts as a "trap". Anyone who takes it can be assumed to have a good reason for doing so - perhaps they are taking a one level dip into fighter for some reason and already have all the weapon and armour proficiencies they need from their other class.
On the other hand, something like the Vow of Poverty, where the adverse consequences of taking the option might not be obvious to inexperienced players, and/or subject to a great deal of GM interpretation as to how they work in practice, could be considered a trap option.
As a Sorcerer 4 / Oracle 4, the very weakest part of the progression, you are an 8th level character casting 2nd level spells, etc.
Thanks, that was why I brought up the question. As much as I like the idea of a divine/arcane, cha-based, spontaneous spellcaster as a character, however, the mere suggestion generally makes most players rightly miffed at the idea of carrying around dead weight... and I don't exactly enjoy playing a character that has severe trouble contributing as much as I like the concept.
Besides, I was just wondering Mr. Jacobs' opinion, not that I expect anything to be done about such a fringe case.
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My understanding is that the initial intent for the Prestige Class was to introduce a flavorful way for a character to gain a level of prestige by joining an order and gain access to specialized training. I believe, as a GM, that a prestige class should be offered to a character that has caught the eye of an organization/teacher before even being allowed to take the first level of that Prestige Class.
Is this intent different for Pathfinder?
I hope the Harbingers of Fate and Blackfire Adepts will be there
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Creative Director
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My goal with this book is to come up with 30 flavorful, fun, and exciting prestige classes that do not include "player traps" (even though I think that what some folks think of as "player traps" are in fact "poor GM campaign expectation management failures," and that any prestige class, given the right campaign, can be fun), but in fact DO present ways to specialize your character so that he or she DOES become pretty good at whatever prestigious type of adventuring he or she wants to specialize in.
I know this is a tangent but, out of curiosity, as a fan of the Mystic Theurge PrC who is unable to play it (and isn't a fan of the Witch), where do you think the Mystic Theurge fits in the player trap/poor GM expection management divide?
I only ask because I'd love to play a Sorcerer/Oracle without the spectre of Admiral Akbar following me from gaming table to gaming table.
I actually quite like the mystic theurge. It's BEST role is in a very small party where there's not already an arcanist or a divine caster.
It's when players play one in a group where there's a single classed arcanist or divine caster that the jealousy kicks in...
What are the chances we can get a complete list of the PrC's names? That would be pretty cool.
I imagine that the answer to this is "no" but are the Prestige Classes in this tied so closely to Glorion that transplanting them to a different setting is problematic?
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I imagine that the answer to this is "no" but are the Prestige Classes in this tied so closely to Glorion that transplanting them to a different setting is problematic?
I doubt it will be problematic... though you might need to have an organization that has similar methods and philosophies in your homebrew or other campaign. Usually, it seems that the prestige classes always follow a certain theme, and if the setting you are playing in has a similar one, I don't see any problem with checking with your GM.
James sir, when you mentioned PrC's for monsters my heart soared, I hope you will bring back an iconic role that is poorly implemented right now, and the class that brings it the best kinda got hosed. I'm referring to the "Death Knight". The closest we have now is the Knight of the Sepulcher archetype, and it cannot heal itself as a swift action like its paladin brethren. Heck the Dhampir paladin crowd would love this as well, as well as any DM wanting to make a champion out of a fire giant ghoul or something else. Something along the lines of "Pre-req: must be healed by negative energy" that grants swift action lay on hands that stacks with touch of corruption/lay on hands (and lets you use those to heal yourself the same way) would cause all the lovers of creepy holy/unholy things wail with joy.
I know this is a tangent but, out of curiosity, as a fan of the Mystic Theurge PrC who is unable to play it (and isn't a fan of the Witch), where do you think the Mystic Theurge fits in the player trap/poor GM expection management divide?I only ask because I'd love to play a Sorcerer/Oracle without the spectre of Admiral Akbar following me from gaming table to gaming table.
I actually quite like the mystic theurge. It's BEST role is in a very small party where there's not already an arcanist or a divine caster.
It's when players play one in a group where there's a single classed arcanist or divine caster that the jealousy kicks in...
Thanks for the reply. :)
I agree, one of the best characters I've ever run was a Mystic Theurge in a solo campaign. Though I wouldn't call it jealousy in the latter case as much as frustration.
Things I'd like to see:
A remade Chevalier of Cayden Cailean prestige class
A remade Inheritor's Crusader of Iomedae prestige class
A remade Justiciar of Abadar prestige class
A Technomancer prestige class
A Knight of the Green Feather prestige class
Prediction: James and co. come up with 30 flavourful, fun but not overwhelming mechanically PrCs that serve more as enrichment of the world and less as vehicle for powergaming.
The community goes into blaaargh 1-star review outrage at PrCs not being a bunch of Ur-priests, Planar Shepherds and Abjurant Cheesecakes.
I really hope I'm wrong on *both* counts.
Why can't flavorful, fun PrCs that enrich the world also be mechanically solid? Having a terrible character doesn't make you a better roleplayer.
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half wonder if it will have any prcs not native to golarion in it..
Probably not, since it's part of the setting line. But they should be adaptable for other settings!
Unless you mean something like Castrovel Mindknight or something else from the other worlds in the setting, which still strikes me as highly unlikely.
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Each ten-level prestige classes is tied to a different organization or theme found in the Inner Sea region of Golarion...
This part of the product description is pretty clear about the prestige classes being tied to the Inner Sea region and not other regions or planets. I suppose nothing's set in stone at this point since the book hasn't been finished yet but I'd be very surprised to see a prestige class tied to anything not found in the Inner Sea region.
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Why can't flavorful, fun PrCs that enrich the world also be mechanically solid? Having a terrible character doesn't make you a better roleplayer.
You can, but think about it this way. You have three choices with where you can go. 1: Make the Classes mechanically balanced, even if it interferes with the story elements (Fighters having powers). 2: Put precedence on the story elements, and don't worry making them mechanically viable or balanced. 3: Make sure all fit both catagories.
The third choice really is limiting what you can do. You may have a great concept, that will just mechanically not work. It is easy to say any idea can be balanced but in reality that is not true. Sometimes you have have a story concept that just can not work in a balanced environment. (look at how crappy jedi are in any of the rpg games that have been made. Jedi are a great story element, but bad to balance mechanically. You want to play a jedi to do the cool think you see them do in the movie. That means you are going to out power the other types. That is what you have to deal with if you want that "jedi" experience that you see in the story. A good RPG tries balance this by stiking to story elements that can be balanced, but you have to step on one side of the line or the other. There are cases where story will trum mechanics, or the other way around.)
The first choice is a valid one, but takes a big part or the focus of the game away. This is an RPG and if all that was important was rules, why not just make a card game or board game. It would work better. There are other avenues for this type of play that can do it better then RPGs. Nothing is stopping you from playing a board game and speaking in role. Heck we do it all the time when playing Arkham Asylum. A mechanical balance that we add rp elements to. The first choice fits better here.
The last then is the better way to go with an RPG. Provide the story elements and the way they fit best with the campaign. If that means the ability comes out strong or weak, then that is ok. It isn't a card game or video game where winning is the goal. It is a role-playing game. Therefore the emphasis should be on the playing of a role, and the mechanics should take a back seat to a degree. Like I said above, you want to make an attempt to balance things as best you can, but at the same time if getting to play the really cool concept meanr you will be weaker, then you should be ok with that. You should take that as part of the concept on a whole. The concept should be more important to you than the balance, other wise you can go play clue, and pretend that Col Mustard is a ninja and get all the ninja goodness AND the balanced rules you want. (there are much better choices than clue of course)
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Creative Director
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You can, but think about it this way. You have three choices with where you can go. 1: Make the Classes mechanically balanced, even if it interferes with the story elements (Fighters having powers). 2: Put precedence on the story elements, and don't worry making them mechanically viable or balanced. 3: Make sure all fit both catagories.
The third choice really is limiting what you can do.
Which is why we hire the best designers we can find.
My goal for the book is to make as many of the prestige classes in the book as flavorful AND fun to play as possible. From roleplay and rules angles alike.
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When I saw "Hellknight Signifers," my eyes opened wide. In PFSOP I already paid the prestige points for both ranks to become one in title from the PFS Field Guide book. I was excited about serving Cheliax as one. Than I realized, wait, this is much more likely based on a wizard or sorcerer. I would get boned if I tried it with my summoner. I got a little disappointed. Seeing that the book will have nothing for eidolons or grit reinforces the idea. I doubt I will ever want to play a wizard or sorcerer to take this class, I just don't care for those classes enough to take them. Well maybe if I were allowed 2 pcs at the same time in the same campaign. In that case I would want one of them to be somthing I liked the idea of but could never justify playing for fear of survival or lack of machanical satisfaction. I might qualify with summoner but I doubt I could afford giving up the advancement of the eidolon. Especially since boon companion does not work with eidolons. None the less, I am happy to see Cheliax get some support. It also sets off the light over my head to want to create a prestige class of my own for Chelaxian summoners. Something specializing in summoning devils and with some sort of built into the class advancement of the eidolon.
I am glad to see some support for prestige classes, it has been rare. I am intrigued by the concept of using them to emphasize the flavor of the Golarion.
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The Inner Sea World Guide states that "Many Hellknight signifiers are magi, ..." (p275) so I would be disappointed if the PrC went completely counter that, or wasn't at least viable for a magus character.
I would like to see a PF version of the 3.5 Gray Guard from Complete Scoundrel.
That PrC gives players an excuse for breaking the Code of Conduct, which is a critical part of being a paladin.
And I heard from many a DM who did not like it due to players abusing it's laxing the code of conduct and other issues.I heard from only ONE DM that only ONE of his players RPed the class well and did not abuse the laxing code of conduct of the class.
This book will not be "rebuilding" or "converting" any of the 3.5 prestige classes from Wizards of the Coast products at all, since all of those classes (save for the few that were in the Dungeon Master's Guide) are closed content.
Drat, I would have liked to have seen the Sacred Fist and Enlightened Fist officially remade in Pathfinder.
There's good, and bad here. Pathfinder reduced a lot of the "need" to PrC (My friends were AGHAST, hehe, when I decided to play a necro/EK) But it's still a very nice option to have, and something I've been missing from the last game.
This book will not be "rebuilding" or "converting" any of the 3.5 prestige classes from Wizards of the Coast products at all, since all of those classes (save for the few that were in the Dungeon Master's Guide) are closed content.
And don't forget the Prestige Classes in the Expanded Psionics Handbook! Those are open too! ^_~
The Inner Sea World Guide states that "Many Hellknight signifiers are magi, ..." (p275) so I would be disappointed if the PrC went completely counter that, or wasn't at least viable for a magus character.
My Signifier in training is in fact a Magus, so I really hope you are right ;)
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I really hope that they put some effort into opening up Prestige Classes to a multitude of etntry classes. The one thing that thas always really disappointed me about the Paizo PC is that they seem focused on only helping one class, even if other make perfect sense, too. Most of them are Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue, too.
I think that one of the greatest things WotC did later into their material was introducing the "Adaptation" section, and I would personally rather have that, even if it means dropping a PC or 5 for the room.
Also, please do not redo most of the older material ones. An update, ok, but I'm really getting annoyed with the feeling of essentually rebuying the same material.
Hoping for some Mendevian Cleric, and maybe Paladin, some Ustalavian spellcasters, particularly some of the Pharasma based branches, (and a "White Necro" Cleric and Wizard would rock), a few PC that help bridge the gaps for groups without 4+ players, (and they can have Golarion fluff too ha ha) would all be great ideas. Please, no more Rogue or Bard stuff, there is enough out there already.
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I really hope that they put some effort into opening up Prestige Classes to a multitude of entry classes.
Total agreement there. The strength of Prestige Classes over Archetypes is that they should be easier to make flexible for multiple points of entry. (For that matter, I could see several Archetypes easily modified to be available to different classes, but PrCs should be much easier to branch out this way.)
A Mendevan Crusader PrC that's an option for Paladins, Fighters, Clerics and Rangers, for instance, could be cool, or an Umbral Court Bringer of Night that can provide shadow-magic abilities to a Cleric, Sorcerer or Wizard, for instance.
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Are there going to be any generic, combinational prestige classes that let you merge two classes? Things like the Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Battle Herald, or Rage Prophet?Just one. The Paladin of Irori will, I hope, be a good paladin/monk combo. I also hope it'll have Paladin of Irori code stuff, and some more flavor stuff. Classes like those mentioned above exist primarily in a world-flavor-vacuum, and are mostly of interest purely on a mechanical level for multiclassing. That's not what these prestige classes in "Paths of Prestige" are doing, for the most part.
There's a reason this book is in the Campaign Setting line, folks... my philosophy is that prestige classes are MUCH BETTER when they are used to present world-specific stuff. Like Hellknights, harrowers, red mantis assassins, and low templars. ALL of the prestige classes in this book are built to support Golarion-specific organizations and options. Several of them will work not only as PC options, but as prestige classes you can put onto monsters (something Pathfinder is SORELY missing at this point). And they'll all bring with them some new flavor to 30 different organizations and philosophies and faiths and factions and whatevers that need more info, in many cases.
Will the prestige classes be usable outside of Golarion? Absolutely—just as you can use Hellknights and harrowers and Red Mantis Assassins and Low Templars in other settings. You might need to fiddle a bit with flavor here and there, but they'll work.
I for one like this philosophy. I think that the PRC makes more sense in that capacity. I think that this is one of the reasons why I am such a fan of the Dragonlance world. It is one thing to fight a generic evil wizard in a random tower but if you know that you are fighting a Mage of the Black Robes in the Tower of High Sorcery in Istar or Palanthas then there is a much more flavorful ecounter.