Darn it I was wrong, Enlight_Bystand you were right.
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DISCLAIMER: I did a brief scan through this forum and didn't see anything pertaining to what I'm about to ask. However, I did just get off my midnight shift, so I may have missed something. If that's the case, I apologize ahead of time.
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Now that that's out of the way, I was wondering if this is going to be an equivalent campaign book to the Inner Sea World Guide, or can we look forward to another book in a future that details the entire outer sea region?
James I believe is the one that said not to long ago. That right now no more World Guides are planned. But then he also pointed out that they put out the Gaz for the inner sea long before the campaign book. So likely it will depend on how well the Dragon Empire Gaz and player primer books sell. Of course I am sure that is subject to change on feedback they get only Paizo would know for sure and I doubt they are willing to tell us yet. :)
James says that I'm misrepresenting. But I do it regardless :D
This book already looks cool. Yay for playable kitsune, and I'm amused to see the bit about an Oriental hobgoblin nation. It reminds me of the art for them from the original hardcover Monster Manual, where the hobgoblins all looked like extras from a Kurosawa film.
You and me both, this and the player book for the same region are getting purchased as soon as I can afford them.
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Well now. I dont usually post, but i am ver excited for this product. As i read in an early post that if people are excited this side of our world will be as detailed as the original. So i am excited, and i also would like to say, if you guys stay on track, that the idea of basing the countries on multiple asian nations, not just japan and china, then you have my support 100%.
I get a little annoyed when companies idea of asia consists of a country that looks like china, but acts like japan. There is a ton of rich story, nations and culture in asia, it does not end in japan.
So hopefully keep up the good work.
All hail house Thrune (which of course should have a page or two about its exploits in tian yes??? ;)
Creative Director
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DISCLAIMER: I did a brief scan through this forum and didn't see anything pertaining to what I'm about to ask. However, I did just get off my midnight shift, so I may have missed something. If that's the case, I apologize ahead of time.
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Now that that's out of the way, I was wondering if this is going to be an equivalent campaign book to the Inner Sea World Guide, or can we look forward to another book in a future that details the entire outer sea region?
There's no such thing as an "Outer Sea Region," unless you're talking about the rest of the world BEYOND the Inner Sea region. Tian Xia is only one part of the rest of the world; there's another several oceans and continents beyond both the Inner Sea region AND Tian Xia, after all.
We have no plans for doing a big hardcover supplement to the Inner Sea World Guide at this time, though.
Having just finished Master of Devils, i was wondering wether some of the flavour like the levitating mountains or the celestial dragon will make it into the book?
Anyway, i can hardly wait for the product...!
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Creative Director
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Having just finished Master of Devils, i was wondering wether some of the flavour like the levitating mountains or the celestial dragon will make it into the book?
Anyway, i can hardly wait for the product...!
We have about 28 different regions to cover, of which Quain is only one of them. But we DID get Dave Gross to write Quain's entry, so if he felt those levitating mountains and what-not were important enough to mention in the entry, he'll have it covered! Not in GREAT detail, though... not a lot of room for that in a 64 page book that covers 28 regions, 20 deities, 5 nonhuman races, over half a dozen human ethnicities, and more...
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We have about 28 different regions to cover, of which Quain is only one of them. But we DID get Dave Gross to write Quain's entry, so if he felt those levitating mountains and what-not were important enough to mention in the entry, he'll have it covered! Not in GREAT detail, though... not a lot of room for that in a 64 page book that covers 28 regions, 20 deities, 5 nonhuman races, over half a dozen human ethnicities, and more...Having just finished Master of Devils, i was wondering wether some of the flavour like the levitating mountains or the celestial dragon will make it into the book?
Anyway, i can hardly wait for the product...!
Right, for details that would be in the Tian Xia World Guide book. Which hopefully will end up coming out in late 2012 or early 2013. :)
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Contributor
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We have about 28 different regions to cover, of which Quain is only one of them. But we DID get Dave Gross to write Quain's entry, so if he felt those levitating mountains and what-not were important enough to mention in the entry, he'll have it covered! Not in GREAT detail, though... not a lot of room for that in a 64 page book that covers 28 regions, 20 deities, 5 nonhuman races, over half a dozen human ethnicities, and more...Having just finished Master of Devils, i was wondering wether some of the flavour like the levitating mountains or the celestial dragon will make it into the book?
Anyway, i can hardly wait for the product...!
Before development, the Flying Mountains have a couple of sentences in the Quain entry, which highlights most but not all of what seemed the most adventure-worthy sites from the novel. It's enough for a GM to get a feel for the location without having read the novel, but it doesn't include detail.
We have about 28 different regions to cover, of which Quain is only one of them. But we DID get Dave Gross to write Quain's entry, so if he felt those levitating mountains and what-not were important enough to mention in the entry, he'll have it covered! Not in GREAT detail, though... not a lot of room for that in a 64 page book that covers 28 regions, 20 deities, 5 nonhuman races, over half a dozen human ethnicities, and more...Having just finished Master of Devils, i was wondering wether some of the flavour like the levitating mountains or the celestial dragon will make it into the book?
Anyway, i can hardly wait for the product...!Before development, the Flying Mountains have a couple of sentences in the Quain entry, which highlights most but not all of what seemed the most adventure-worthy sites from the novel. It's enough for a GM to get a feel for the location without having read the novel, but it doesn't include detail.
This is awesome. That was one of my favorite parts of the movie Avatar, even though it didn't really make any sense :)
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Contributor
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This is awesome. That was one of my favorite parts of the movie Avatar, even though it didn't really make any sense :)Having just finished Master of Devils, i was wondering wether some of the flavour like the levitating mountains or the celestial dragon will make it into the book?
Anyway, i can hardly wait for the product...!Before development, the Flying Mountains have a couple of sentences in the Quain entry, which highlights most but not all of what seemed the most adventure-worthy sites from the novel. It's enough for a GM to get a feel for the location without having read the novel, but it doesn't include detail.
The Flying Mountains in Master of Devils have more in common with the columns in Zhangjiajie National Park--which have since been renamed the "Avatar Hallelujah Mountains" to attract more tourists.
Still, there's no reason to say that some of those high peaks are full of Unobtainium.
Please don't let Kitsune be small sized while in their real form. PLEASE DON'T LET KITSUNE BE SMALL SIZED WHILE IN THEIR REAL FORM! (prays at the altar)
Looks cool and definitely will pick it up... but as I understand it the standard western races will be mostly replaced with oriental equivalents?
And most of the gods as well?
I get WHY this is happening - all the oriental supplements from 1st edition onwards have always done this to make it authentic but it always breaks the world for me.
If elves existed on Earth I'm suddenly meant to believe that walking from europe to china makes them, what, vanish? Turn into a very loose version or so on? I'd have a much easier time simply imagining an oriental elven empire. I'm sure it will be a great product, but it always seems weird that in the west, the races, classes and environments are all suitably imaginative. Flying islands, winged haflings, etc - whatever the publisher thinks will be spectacular. But when we get to the eastern lands it often feels VERY traditional and almost fearful of a setting change (I know the japanese mangas don't seem to worry about authenticity... they love their elves it seems).
Same with gods. I can imagine they'd have different names, but these aren't just social phenomena and social reflections. You can contact them, they grant spells and can interact with the physical world. Asmodeous and his ilk might have different names in the east, but whether he was called Ravana or Amatsu Mikabosh he's still be pretty much the same being, just working in different areas and pictured in a different fashion.
Anyway - my two cents... I can always shove halflings in Kimonos, orc horse-clans and Elven samurai into my game :)
Looks cool and definitely will pick it up... but as I understand it the standard western races will be mostly replaced with oriental equivalents?
And most of the gods as well?
I get WHY this is happening - all the oriental supplements from 1st edition onwards have always done this to make it authentic but it always breaks the world for me.
If elves existed on Earth I'm suddenly meant to believe that walking from europe to china makes them, what, vanish? Turn into a very loose version or so on? I'd have a much easier time simply imagining an oriental elven empire. I'm sure it will be a great product, but it always seems weird that in the west, the races, classes and environments are all suitably imaginative. Flying islands, winged haflings, etc - whatever the publisher thinks will be spectacular. But when we get to the eastern lands it often feels VERY traditional and almost fearful of a setting change (I know the japanese mangas don't seem to worry about authenticity... they love their elves it seems).
Same with gods. I can imagine they'd have different names, but these aren't just social phenomena and social reflections. You can contact them, they grant spells and can interact with the physical world. Asmodeous and his ilk might have different names in the east, but whether he was called Ravana or Amatsu Mikabosh he's still be pretty much the same being, just working in different areas and pictured in a different fashion.
Anyway - my two cents... I can always shove halflings in Kimonos, orc horse-clans and Elven samurai into my game :)
The elves are going to have some influence in Tian Xia, but it will be smaller. Since the elves of Golarion were gone for quite a while and then returned through the elf gates in Avistan it makes sense that their influence is strongest there. The same with the dwarves. It doesn't mean that they won't be around just that they have a smaller part. (btw this info is from the seminar at PaizoCon).
As far as the Pantheon, there is a different Core 20 Pantheon in Tian Xia, however that doesn't mean that there isn't any crossover with Avistan. I believe they have said, for example that Desna will be one of the 20 gods in Tian Xia. Pharasma as well.
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Creative Director
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Please don't let Kitsune be small sized while in their real form. PLEASE DON'T LET KITSUNE BE SMALL SIZED WHILE IN THEIR REAL FORM! (prays at the altar)
Kitsune are Medium humanoids. They can assume a single (fixed) human form; their true form is a fox/human hybrid. With a feat (to be presented in Dragon Empires Primer) they'll be able to assume the form of a normal fox or perhaps more.
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Creative Director
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Looks cool and definitely will pick it up... but as I understand it the standard western races will be mostly replaced with oriental equivalents?
And most of the gods as well?
I get WHY this is happening - all the oriental supplements from 1st edition onwards have always done this to make it authentic but it always breaks the world for me.
If elves existed on Earth I'm suddenly meant to believe that walking from europe to china makes them, what, vanish? Turn into a very loose version or so on? I'd have a much easier time simply imagining an oriental elven empire. I'm sure it will be a great product, but it always seems weird that in the west, the races, classes and environments are all suitably imaginative. Flying islands, winged haflings, etc - whatever the publisher thinks will be spectacular. But when we get to the eastern lands it often feels VERY traditional and almost fearful of a setting change (I know the japanese mangas don't seem to worry about authenticity... they love their elves it seems).
Same with gods. I can imagine they'd have different names, but these aren't just social phenomena and social reflections. You can contact them, they grant spells and can interact with the physical world. Asmodeous and his ilk might have different names in the east, but whether he was called Ravana or Amatsu Mikabosh he's still be pretty much the same being, just working in different areas and pictured in a different fashion.
Anyway - my two cents... I can always shove halflings in Kimonos, orc horse-clans and Elven samurai into my game :)
All of the core races will have a certain presence in the Dragon Empires. One of them will actually have a nation in the Dragon Empires. We're not abandoning elves and gnomes and halflings and half orcs and half elves and dwarves simply because we're going to the other side of the planet... but those races ARE far less common in Tian Xia than in the Inner Sea region. Same goes for deities... we have a core 20 pantheon of deities in Tian Xia... but not all of them are "new." About a third of them are deities like Irori or Desna or the like—gods and goddesses you're familiar with. The familiar deities might have different titles, and their religions might have different rituals, but they'll have the same names.
Our goal with Tian Xia is to present a brand new setting on Golarion, but at the same time make it feel like it's PART of Golarion. It's not going to be completely cut-off from the Inner Sea. Just as you see Tian characters and tengus and the like in the Inner Sea... but you don't see them all the time... so with Tian-Xia.
I don't know what to write. This is so amazing. And I wanted to write something :3 Love your work. Can't wait for kitsunes.
..useless post I think.
Brilliant to here that there will be more connection with the west!
Thanks for getting back to me about that, it's one of my minor bugbears about eastern supplements, the idea there's no connection or knock on effect between the two lands (whereas our own history is a web of trade routes, Mongol invasions ping-ponging back and forth between the two and so on).
Waa! Any chance a preview with the Kitsune stats could be made available? I have a friend that would very much want to play one, if possible.
Waa! Any chance a preview with the Kitsune stats could be made available? I have a friend that would very much want to play one, if possible.We generally don't preview contents of books until much closer to the book's release date.
Well, yeah I know just wondering cause it kinda sucks that the
I have a friend who can sometimes be... overly zealous... about game balance that he will debate to high heaven a rule that he thinks is unbalanced and I find myself unable to argue because I am not the game developer that wrote that rule...
Case in point, he insists that the Halfling Jinx racial trait in Halflings of Golarion is unbalanced and way too powerful. So, now I am curious... What should I tell him? Is he right? Is it unbalanced? What was your design team's thoughts when they designed that alternate racial trait to make sure it's not totally overpowering as he thinks it is?
OH CRAP I am so sorry! I posted my question on the wrong thread! If a WebPerson sees this, please feel free to delete these to clear up the clutter. My apologies.
OH CRAP I am so sorry! I posted my question on the wrong thread! If a WebPerson sees this, please feel free to delete these to clear up the clutter. My apologies.
Okay, now it makes sense. I was wondering why I couldn't see the segue that changed the conversation from being about Dragon Empires and its contents to being something about overly zealous questions of game balance regarding Halfling racial traits.
I removed a post and the reply to it. Be nice.
More than half a dozen human ethnicities, eh? So, more than just the five Tian subgroups described in the Inner Sea World Guide? I'm really eager to learn more about them!
Also excited to see any Korean-inspired material in this book. They get short-changed in RPGs compared to China and Japan, but Korean folklore is really fascinating.
Question: Are the names in the Inner Sea World Guide the names by which the Tian subgroups call themselves? For example, the Tian-Sing, who seem to be ethnically unrelated to the other Tian peoples: Did they name themselves that, or is that what the others call them?
Very excited to see this book!
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Creative Director
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More than half a dozen human ethnicities, eh? So, more than just the five Tian subgroups described in the Inner Sea World Guide? I'm really eager to learn more about them!
Also excited to see any Korean-inspired material in this book. They get short-changed in RPGs compared to China and Japan, but Korean folklore is really fascinating.
Question: Are the names in the Inner Sea World Guide the names by which the Tian subgroups call themselves? For example, the Tian-Sing, who seem to be ethnically unrelated to the other Tian peoples: Did they name themselves that, or is that what the others call them?
Very excited to see this book!
There are 7 ethnicities in the Dragon Empires. They're more or less based on the following real-world regions, listed in alphabetical order:
Cambodia
China
Indonesia
Japan
Korea
Mongolia
Vietnam
(Although there's a fair amount of crossover and mixing to "fantasy" several of the ethnicities up, of course, just as we did for the Inner Sea ethnicities.)
They do all call themselves "Tian-ethnicity" though. The reason why is detailed in the Dragon Empires book.
To what extent is Vudra present in Tian Xia? I'm primarily asking as the real-world equivalent India is kind-of the axis on which we flip from Europe (Inner Sea) to Asia (Tian Xia).
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Creative Director
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To what extent is Vudra present in Tian Xia? I'm primarily asking as the real-world equivalent India is kind-of the axis on which we flip from Europe (Inner Sea) to Asia (Tian Xia).
Physically? Not at all. Vudra is separated from Tian Xia by an ocean. Vudra is part of the continent of Casmaron.
There ARE elements of Vudra in Tian Xia, primarily in the form of Irori's faith.
(Keep in mind that Golarion has one more continent than we do.)
Another book I am exited about other than my opsession with Beastairy 3 anyway. I can't wait for this one, the Linnorm kings. the primer version for this one, mythological monsters, and Giants revisited.
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There are 7 ethnicities in the Dragon Empires. They're more or less based on the following real-world regions, listed in alphabetical order:
Cambodia
China
Indonesia
Japan
Korea
Mongolia
Vietnam(Although there's a fair amount of crossover and mixing to "fantasy" several of the ethnicities up, of course, just as we did for the Inner Sea ethnicities.)
They do all call themselves "Tian-ethnicity" though. The reason why is detailed in the Dragon Empires book.
Finally a Fantasy Asia that isn't all Japan all the time. Like L5R was even tho they swore up and down that they had elements of other cultures (and just using Chinese, and Vietnamese monsters doesn't count).
So I have a question in one of the 2 Tian books are we going to see some evil Eunuch Sorcerers? And yes I have my pdf of Dragon Fist open why do you ask?
To what extent is Vudra present in Tian Xia? I'm primarily asking as the real-world equivalent India is kind-of the axis on which we flip from Europe (Inner Sea) to Asia (Tian Xia).
Physically? Not at all. Vudra is separated from Tian Xia by an ocean. Vudra is part of the continent of Casmaron.
There ARE elements of Vudra in Tian Xia, primarily in the form of Irori's faith.
(Keep in mind that Golarion has one more continent than we do.)
You mean until the tectonic plates align and form the (new) highest mountain range of Golarion.
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Creative Director
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To what extent is Vudra present in Tian Xia? I'm primarily asking as the real-world equivalent India is kind-of the axis on which we flip from Europe (Inner Sea) to Asia (Tian Xia).
Physically? Not at all. Vudra is separated from Tian Xia by an ocean. Vudra is part of the continent of Casmaron.
There ARE elements of Vudra in Tian Xia, primarily in the form of Irori's faith.
(Keep in mind that Golarion has one more continent than we do.)
You mean until the tectonic plates align and form the (new) highest mountain range of Golarion.
Maybe. Tectonic plates are far from the only thing that makes mountains in Golarion.
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Maybe. Tectonic plates are far from the only thing that makes mountains in Golarion.To what extent is Vudra present in Tian Xia? I'm primarily asking as the real-world equivalent India is kind-of the axis on which we flip from Europe (Inner Sea) to Asia (Tian Xia).
Physically? Not at all. Vudra is separated from Tian Xia by an ocean. Vudra is part of the continent of Casmaron.
There ARE elements of Vudra in Tian Xia, primarily in the form of Irori's faith.
(Keep in mind that Golarion has one more continent than we do.)
You mean until the tectonic plates align and form the (new) highest mountain range of Golarion.
I always thought mountains was made by the giant mole people burrowing under the surface.
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I always thought mountains was made by the giant mole people burrowing under the surface.Maybe. Tectonic plates are far from the only thing that makes mountains in Golarion.To what extent is Vudra present in Tian Xia? I'm primarily asking as the real-world equivalent India is kind-of the axis on which we flip from Europe (Inner Sea) to Asia (Tian Xia).
Physically? Not at all. Vudra is separated from Tian Xia by an ocean. Vudra is part of the continent of Casmaron.
There ARE elements of Vudra in Tian Xia, primarily in the form of Irori's faith.
(Keep in mind that Golarion has one more continent than we do.)
You mean until the tectonic plates align and form the (new) highest mountain range of Golarion.
I always thought they were the spines of fallen Titans...
Okay, so the nations and the races had a fair amount of exposure by now (in-thread). What about other topics in the book? What is your favorite new faction? Or favorite new feature that we don't even know to ask about? (Rules for running a geisha establishment, Tien holy sites of power, a secret order of time monks who fight an equally secretive order of elemental ninjas?)
In the new Kobold Quarterly there is a huge Dragon Empires preview...
Pretty cool stuff, ranging from sort of Old One worship in the swamp nation Wanshou, to an Elf nation, over to a flying city of Sky Spirits (Shory?) in the great desert.
Overall, a really nice read. Seems the book is getting pretty awesome...
And they somehow need to fit it all into 64 pages... - has anybody pitched the idea of a full-blown hardcover for the Dragon Empires to Paizo yet? ;p ;)
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In the new Kobold Quarterly there is a huge Dragon Empires preview...
Pretty cool stuff, ranging from sort of Old One worship in the swamp nation Wanshou, to an Elf nation, over to a flying city of Sky Spirits (Shory?) in the great desert.
Overall, a really nice read. Seems the book is getting pretty awesome...
I also noticed in KQ that Amanandar is a Inner Sea Nation that right in the middle of Dragon Empire. Curious to how that is done. It mentions Taldor and their attempt at expansion.
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Creative Director
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And they somehow need to fit it all into 64 pages... - has anybody pitched the idea of a full-blown hardcover for the Dragon Empires to Paizo yet? ;p ;)
Yup. I did. The original plan was to do a book the size of the Inner Sea World Guide.
Then reality set in, and the book shrank to a 64 page Campaign Setting book and a 32 page Player Companion book.
Which is more than we did for the Inner Sea World Guide when we launched THAT setting... our core setting started with only a single 64 page book, so it's not like presenting an entire region of the world is impossible or something we've never done before. :-P
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Creative Director
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can you spoil the alignment of the kitsune??
Like any PC race... a kitsune can be any alignment.
But just as elf NPCs tend toward chaotic good, kitsune tend toward neutral (and alignments with neutral components, like lawful neutral, neutral evil, neutral good, and chaotic neutral).
I'm sure there's stuff you don't want to spoiler yet about the Dragon Empires; but what about things that were added only recently? (I like to think of such undertakings as the Dragon Empires setting as a living and dynamic thing, so on those grounds I imagine there might be new things that got added - i.e. recent unplanned additions - that do not specifically need the veil of secrecy.)