what about the bladelings?
They were never really true outsiders, it being highly suggested that they were effectively a true-breeding sort of tiefling descended from or created by an earlier race on Acheron.
And they're WotC IP which makes them totally untouchable anyway.
And they're WotC IP which makes them totally untouchable anyway.
I'm pretty sure that all those sharp angles made them untouchable before anyway . . . ahem . . .
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I don't see "Republicans" on that list anywhere?But after you cover demons, devils, and daemons, who's left?The big question is...will there be a Volume 3?I certainly hope so. We've got plans for more than 3 volumes in this series, in fact... so hopefully we'll do a lot more in the series!
Plenty!
Asuras (evil outsiders that rise from the mistakes of the gods)
Daemons (physical manifestations of death)
Demodands (perhaps the mercenaries of chaos and evil or something like that)
Demons (the result of sinful mortal souls exposed to the raw nature of the Abyss)
Devils (fallen angels and heretics of faith)
Divs (corrupted genies)
Kytons (shadow-plane dwelling masochists who have been infused with some strange outer evil)
Oni (evil spirits bound into the flesh of a humanoid form)
Qlippoth (the original evil outsider race, perhaps the first source of evil)
Rakshasas (fiends who have abandoned links to the gods and the outer planes in order to try to rule the Material Plane)Now, there'll certainly be some crossover here and there (expect to see a fair amount of talk about qlippoth and maybe a little about demodands in Lords of Chaos), but I could certainly see a book about all ten of these fiend races eventually!
"Democrats" aren't on the list either. :)
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Actually, the little dems/repub's tet-a-tet got me thinking;
with the polarized nature of alignments and their customary host of outsiders, I feel you tend to lose in varying degrees the story-generating conflicts brought about by if not moral ambiguity then at least relativism.
Think about two tribes or cultures.
One has a great culture hero, the "Audacious Hoper" the other is the ancient "Great Communicator."
If you ask the children of the Audacious Hoper, the Great Communicator is this ancient lich that brought about 1,000 years of winter with his Raygun and his dementia.
If yo ask the Cultists of the Great Communicator, they hearken back to his glory days and firmly believe the egotistical Godking will bring upon us hell on earth.
Neither group, of course, necessarily animates the dead, summons infernal forces, or does bad things to people when the stars are right....or maybe some of the more extreme ones do. Hey-what do they say about ends and means?
No, in D&D anyway, reality has a polarized bias.....
what about the bladelings?They were never really true outsiders, it being highly suggested that they were effectively a true-breeding sort of tiefling descended from or created by an earlier race on Acheron.
And they're WotC IP which makes them totally untouchable anyway.
Oh, that's a pity, I remember now, hassitoriums or something. Can't think of any other other than barghests and nightmares, hope Paizo invents some new cool fiend-types.
I wish this was out now, my group is in the Abyss! Guess I will just have to pull out my other books with which to kill them.
Well, as I have read Book of the Damned Vol 1, and really enjoyed it I can't wait for Vol 2: Lords of Chaos. And I think it's great that James Jacobs is the author of this one... he really is right? (It's not one of those "placeholder" things?) From what I've read here of everyone's posts I'm going to believe that Mr. Jacobs is indeed the author, until otherwise corrected.
And, as an aside, I really liked most (if not all) of the list of potential "Books of the Damned" candidates.
Oh, and I really like the Proteans, and would love to see similar treatment for them, but I don't feel that they are "Damned" per se, so maybe another "blanket" term for them (and possibly other non-evil/non-good outsiders?)
And a book of Celestials would be neat too. (Y'know in your spare time, and while I'm wishing.) ;-)
Peace
~Dean; the Minstrel Wyrm
On the subject of other outsider races, I cannot wait to see what the proposed for Bestiary II true nuetral outsider race is!
Actually, the little dems/repub's tet-a-tet got me thinking;
with the polarized nature of alignments and their customary host of outsiders, I feel you tend to lose in varying degrees the story-generating conflicts brought about by if not moral ambiguity then at least relativism.
Think about two tribes or cultures.
One has a great culture hero, the "Audacious Hoper" the other is the ancient "Great Communicator."
If you ask the children of the Audacious Hoper, the Great Communicator is this ancient lich that brought about 1,000 years of winter with his Raygun and his dementia.
If yo ask the Cultists of the Great Communicator, they hearken back to his glory days and firmly believe the egotistical Godking will bring upon us hell on earth.
Neither group, of course, necessarily animates the dead, summons infernal forces, or does bad things to people when the stars are right....or maybe some of the more extreme ones do. Hey-what do they say about ends and means?No, in D&D anyway, reality has a polarized bias.....
Sort of like the "Blood War" - Republican (Devils) vs Democrats (Demons).
On the subject of other outsider races, I cannot wait to see what the proposed for Bestiary II true nuetral outsider race is!
You just reminded me, sadly, of the lack of attention WotC gave to the Rilmani. When I first read about them in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium 2, I was pleased. It only seemed fair every alignment received their own extraplanar archtypes and champions and the rilmani were cool for Neutral alignment. I was surprised to see them in Fiend Folio, and was hoping either they or Dragon Magazine would publish more on the rilmani, but neither of them did :'(
Personally, unless it's the rilmani, I'm not too interested in Paizo's version unless they keep them the same and just change the copyrighted name of "rilmani" to something else. Do the Bill Gates thing, pretty much.
I'd rather see 3 volumes of "Books of the Exalted" after these 3 volumes of Books of the Damned. Archons, Elad---er--Azati, and Guardin---cough---Agathions. No room for Angels...hmm...maybe 4 volumes?
Two volumes on Law and Chaos would be sweet, for proteans and axiomites/inevitables.
Personally, unless it's the rilmani, I'm not too interested in Paizo's version unless they keep them the same and just change the copyrighted name of "rilmani" to something else. Do the Bill Gates thing, pretty much.
That's a kind of pointless attitude, what if their better? Clearly the Rilmani didn't fly, so maybe this race will be far more engaging and actually warrant some use and attention, I don't think paizo would plan them out and have them boring, I don't just understand why anything except a Rilmani clone is suitable.
Creative Director
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Personally, unless it's the rilmani, I'm not too interested in Paizo's version unless they keep them the same and just change the copyrighted name of "rilmani" to something else. Do the Bill Gates thing, pretty much.
We can't do anything with the rilmani. They're closed content. Our Neutral outsider race is gonna be something entirely different, and I'm actually really stoked to see how they end up looking, because the concepts we did for them are really fun.
Personally, unless it's the rilmani, I'm not too interested in Paizo's version unless they keep them the same and just change the copyrighted name of "rilmani" to something else. Do the Bill Gates thing, pretty much.We can't do anything with the rilmani. They're closed content. Our Neutral outsider race is gonna be something entirely different, and I'm actually really stoked to see how they end up looking, because the concepts we did for them are really fun.
And they are? :D
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Creative Director
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And they are? :DPersonally, unless it's the rilmani, I'm not too interested in Paizo's version unless they keep them the same and just change the copyrighted name of "rilmani" to something else. Do the Bill Gates thing, pretty much.We can't do anything with the rilmani. They're closed content. Our Neutral outsider race is gonna be something entirely different, and I'm actually really stoked to see how they end up looking, because the concepts we did for them are really fun.
Still top secret, alas.
Still top secret, alas.
*tries to sneak a peek*
"Tell my wife I said hello."
*peeks over Todd's shoulder to try and get a look**tries to sneak a peek*
Still top secret, alas.
*coordinates Todd onto Daigle's shoulder's onto mine to form an inquisitive totem pole of trying to sneak a peek*
That's two times I've asked! Maybe with the third round I'll be more lucky!
No Futurama fans today, eh?
We've actually switched to listing "Paizo Staff" when we need a placeholder author.
I suggest Staff-sensei. He could write a book on anything, and he teaches just about everything, too.
(Story for the interested: Every year just a few weeks before the end of the semester, our school would put out a catalog listing all classes being offered the next semester, including times and professors. If it was as yet unknown who would be teaching the class, the catalog simply said, "Staff."
The sole Japanese language instructor (who was already busy teaching four different classes that semester) was not yet listed as being the instructor for the next semester's classes for some reason. He told the class that yes, he was really "Staff-Sensei," and he was very busy.
"I am Staff-Sensei. See right here? Intermediate Japanese. That's me, and it says "Staff." Yes, I am Staff-Sensei. I teach history, physics, chemistry. I am very, very smart. You should all be smart like me, Staff-Sensei.")
Personally, unless it's the rilmani, I'm not too interested in Paizo's version unless they keep them the same and just change the copyrighted name of "rilmani" to something else. Do the Bill Gates thing, pretty much.That's a kind of pointless attitude, what if their better? Clearly the Rilmani didn't fly, so maybe this race will be far more engaging and actually warrant some use and attention, I don't think paizo would plan them out and have them boring, I don't just understand why anything except a Rilmani clone is suitable.
Is it ok if it's simply because I like the Rilmani as is? Anything else will feel like a cheap knock-off. I already have to deal with daemons being the new "yugoloths" and I use the proteans as an elder outsider race on Limbo that have been there way before the slaadi (like how the obyriths were in the Abyss long before the tanar'ri). No offense to anyone, though, especially the creativeness of Paizo. I'd love to give a look over their version of Neutral outsiders and if I like them, they'll probably be a rilmani offshoot or creation or something in my games, or I'll figure out something.
Proteans have a very different flavor to slaadi [SUMMON KAEYOSS, PROTEAN ADVOCATOR], and frankly daemons are WAY different in that regard to yugoloths who always seemed like slightly more amenable, mercenary fiends, daemons are the LAST fiend a mortal wouldm truck with, they are death and the apocalypse, FAR far from a knock-off, and certainly not cheap. I love daemons, while yugoloths never bothered me, same with sladd to be honest. Axiomites are awesome too!
And I can't see these guys even having a similarity to the rilmani, in theme or whatever. So oyu can use all the old ones if you choose, of course, thats why its compatible.
But, cheap knock-offs! PFFT! I say sir! PFFT!
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Creative Director
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Is it ok if it's simply because I like the Rilmani as is? Anything else will feel like a cheap knock-off. I already have to deal with daemons being the new "yugoloths" and I use the proteans as an elder outsider race on Limbo that have been there way before the slaadi (like how the obyriths were in the Abyss long before the tanar'ri). No offense to anyone, though, especially the creativeness of Paizo. I'd love to give a look over their version of Neutral outsiders and if I like them, they'll probably be a rilmani offshoot or creation or something in my games, or I'll figure out something.
Nevermind the fact that yugoloths are, to me, the "new daemons" since the word yugoloth didn't exist until the 2nd edition of D&D when TSR wanted to avoid accusations that their game promoted devil-worship and changed the names of all the devils, demons, and daemons to made-up nonsense words... so I can see where you're coming from.
In any case, it's simply not possible for us to do anything with many of the D&D outsider races; slaadi, rilmani, and a few others just aren't open content and I would prefer to respect WotC enough not to try to replace those races with photocopies. Hence, the proteans are pretty different thematically and appearancewise from slaadi. Our neutral race will be even MORE different than the rilmani.
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Is it ok if it's simply because I like the Rilmani as is? Anything else will feel like a cheap knock-off. I already have to deal with daemons being the new "yugoloths" and I use the proteans as an elder outsider race on Limbo that have been there way before the slaadi (like how the obyriths were in the Abyss long before the tanar'ri). No offense to anyone, though, especially the creativeness of Paizo. I'd love to give a look over their version of Neutral outsiders and if I like them, they'll probably be a rilmani offshoot or creation or something in my games, or I'll figure out something.Nevermind the fact that yugoloths are, to me, the "new daemons" since the word yugoloth didn't exist until the 2nd edition of D&D when TSR wanted to avoid accusations that their game promoted devil-worship and changed the names of all the devils, demons, and daemons to made-up nonsense words... so I can see where you're coming from.
In any case, it's simply not possible for us to do anything with many of the D&D outsider races; slaadi, rilmani, and a few others just aren't open content and I would prefer to respect WotC enough not to try to replace those races with photocopies. Hence, the proteans are pretty different thematically and appearancewise from slaadi. Our neutral race will be even MORE different than the rilmani.
And I for one am glad paizo is taking this stance. The last thing I want is just photo copies with new names posted on stuff. Paizo has very talented creative writers and i would like you guy to do your own take on pretty much everything. Sure often it will be similiar but sometimes, so far you have not disappointed.
I dunno, the guys that did Tome of Horrors received permission from WotC to do their 1st volume (two of which, as mentioned before, are slaad lords but whatever). Is WotC now too hostile to ask for permission on specific other creatures everyone knows they probably won't ever bother with? The list is small, I am sure, but I'm sure there're a few jewels.
Oh don't get me wrong, thematically fitting Paizo's daemons with WotC's yugoloths is easy. They're both similar enough, so no complaints really. Just using an example.
Yeah, as for Paizo being unique, I somewhat agree with that. I just take Pathfinder's "backwards-compatible, keep your game the same as before just with some new updates" to heart. And, to me, slaad, rilmani, modrons, and such were as "D&D" to me as the main 5 metallic dragons always being Gold, Silver, Copper, Bronze, and Brass (not this Adamatine and Iron crap 4E has going). So I use Paizo's stuff, like I said earlier, as either good substitutes or additions (new inevitables for Law plane, Proteans as primordial Limbo beings, Daemons as Yugoloths). Well, anything having to do with beyond the Material Plane anyway, I blame Planescape for that and it got worse when all campaigns followed the same theme, though I like that because it provides consistency (I lost a part of my soul seeing what they did with the cosmology in 4E).
I personally like to find ways to keep that theme, and I know a suggestion of mine won't be considered but the voice had to at least be heard. I will admit it's my fault for assuming Pathfinder was to be a carbon-copy of WotC's 3.5e, I knew better. Blame the hole 4E blasted in my favorite pasttime, honestly.
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Is WotC now too hostile to ask for permission on specific other creatures everyone knows they probably won't ever bother with? The list is small, I am sure, but I'm sure there're a few jewels.
No chance. The ToH agreement was made back in the days when WotC was running on entirely differnet philosophy regarding open content.
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Creative Director
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I dunno, the guys that did Tome of Horrors received permission from WotC to do their 1st volume (two of which, as mentioned before, are slaad lords but whatever). Is WotC now too hostile to ask for permission on specific other creatures everyone knows they probably won't ever bother with? The list is small, I am sure, but I'm sure there're a few jewels.
Having control of your own content is a good thing. Pathfinder is compatible with D&D, but it's NOT D&D. With us having control over all of our content, we can take the game where WE want it to go, and can enjoy the successes and failures all to ourselves. We've been in the licensing business before (with the D&D magazines and earlier with some Star Wars magazines), and if we were to try to get use of things like the beholder or slaadi or mind flayers, we'd have to license their use in the same way. The problem with licensing is that you have to get approval from whoever you're licensing stuff from. Worse, the license holder can generally end the license when they want (or at the very least set up terms of use), so that it'd be foolish to use any licensed material as anything major in an intellectual property that you otherwise control.
In the end... it's just not good business sense for Paizo at this time to seek a license from WotC to use the 11 or so monsters they've held back (and I very much doubt such permissions or licenses would be given anyway, even if we asked). We've had MUCH greater success striking out on our own.
<snip> I just take Pathfinder's "backwards-compatible, keep your game the same as before just with some new updates" to heart. And, to me, slaad, rilmani, modrons, and such were as "D&D" to me as the main 5 metallic dragons always being Gold, Silver, Copper, Bronze, and Brass (not this Adamatine and Iron crap 4E has going). So I use Paizo's stuff, like I said earlier, as either good substitutes or additions (new inevitables for Law plane, Proteans as primordial Limbo beings, Daemons as Yugoloths). <snip>
And that's the beauty of the system. If you want the slaad, rilmani, etc., you already have it and can just use it. It's your game, your world, no one is going to stop you :)
But as James said, for Paizo's own, they are carving their own path and finding their own critters to populate and play with. I like it, myself, as it keeps things fresh, and my players won't necessarily know what I'm pulling out of the hat.
Since I've whole heartedly embraced Golarion as my campaign setting, I'm not likely to use monsters that "break" the assumptions of the world, such as outsiders that presuppose a given cosmology.
That having been said, there are lots of monsters that can still show up as "something that's pretty rare" from across the various monster manuals, and even using my own logic, its not impossible for something from another cosmology to "break the veil" and end up where it shouldn't.
Heck, if Fritz Leiber can do it by bringing Norse gods into his own cosmology on a cosmic fluke, its good enough for my games from time to time.
The big question is...will there be a Volume 3?
For Daemons and Demodands? I hope!
Our neutral race will be even MORE different than the rilmani.
Sounds interesting. The rilmani never really did anything for me.
The rilmani never really did anything for me.
Yeah, I was always more of a fan of the rilwomani. They enjoyed my horrible puns a lot more.
I hope Malcanthet is in the book. Otherwise, here's hoping she's added to Wayfinder #3.
Looks like another cool book, great round of new product announcements!
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Creative Director
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I hope Malcanthet is in the book. Otherwise, here's hoping she's added to Wayfinder #3.
Malcanthet is the property of Wizards of the Coast, unfortunately. And since her name's completely fictional and not based on a real-world myth, one can't even reinvent her... by that name, at least.
In Golarion, Nocticula is very much the "replacement" Malcanthet, although she's a lot more violent.
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We've actually switched to listing "Paizo Staff" when we need a placeholder author.You should put in place holders that really mess with peoples minds.
Book of the Damned Vol. 3
Author: Pope Pius IIIBook of the Damned Vol. 4
Author: Your mommaEtc.
Sargava, the Lost Colony
Author: J. Robert Lucky, PhD
Malcanthet is the property of Wizards of the Coast, unfortunately. And since her name's completely fictional and not based on a real-world myth, one can't even reinvent her... by that name, at least.In Golarion, Nocticula is very much the "replacement" Malcanthet, although she's a lot more violent.
I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully, I can purchase a Dragon #353 download from your online store someday soon. I look forward to reading your Nocticula entry.
On another topic, will there be statistics for the beastmen of Lamashtu in this product?
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Creative Director
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Malcanthet is the property of Wizards of the Coast, unfortunately. And since her name's completely fictional and not based on a real-world myth, one can't even reinvent her... by that name, at least.In Golarion, Nocticula is very much the "replacement" Malcanthet, although she's a lot more violent.
I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully, I can purchase a Dragon #353 download from your online store someday soon. I look forward to reading your Nocticula entry.
On another topic, will there be statistics for the beastmen of Lamashtu in this product?
Nocticula's already got the beginnings of a writeup, along with most of Golarion's other demon lords, in Pathfinder #18.
The book will also talk a bit about Lamashtu's beastmen, but I'm not sure yet if they'll get stats or some other rules mechanic like a simple template.