Creative Director
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So it makes sense to have a hard cap somewhere. We've already got rules for character levels 1-20. So wouldn't it make sense for that hard cap to be 20?
It would. And if we DO decide to go with that, I'll still be able to stat up those demon lords (I'll just do them up like I did the old Demonomicon articles). The problem is that we have to unequivocally decide that 20 is the top for PCs, 'cause I don't want to build CR 30 versions of demon lords using the current rules only to have us come out with Mythic rules six months later.
It won't get dropped. James is dying to stat up some of the nasty demon lords and the like, plus a certain Dark Tapestry figure.
All of the cagey "well, we could drop it, you never know!" stuff makes me think it might be sooner than we realize - though I do think we'll see a high level GameMastery Guide before we see an epic level GameMastery Guide.
Actually... while most of what I want to do happens here at Paizo... not everything does. No hardcover Tian Xia book, for example. And it took an extra 3 years to get Jade Regent off the ground.
Support and interest from lots of potential customers is the BEST way to convince us to do any book. Alas, support and interest from a smaller subset of customers is not. It's a battle, that's for sure!
(still crossing fingers for Mythic Level rules)
Did someone mention a Tian Xia hardcover? ;)
That may be how many people have played, but I personally find it rather distasteful. I don't think you should be able to obtain the spark of divinity just by killing mamssive quantities of orcs. Likewise, I don't see why killing hordes of kobolds should make you more attuned to one of the Outer planes than to the Material plane.
Presumably going up levels involves something more significant than killing hordes of Kobolds or Orcs. Of course, if you save a nation in the process they may decide you deserve to be a saint anyway. Going up levels and moving beyond any mundane ability is what should attune you to the Outer Planes.
To use Golarion as an example, there's absolutely no need to make merely achieving a high level the path to divinity, as there's a perfectly good major artifact that already does this, the Starstone. I dunno, I think that ascension should be more than just a reward for being an adventurer and managing to not be killed.
I don't play in Golarion. Assuming the Epic (or Mythic or what have you) book is a core rpg line book it has to take more into account than any one way. Artifacts are fine, although finding one that grants deity hood would require a pretty high level adventure.
I think Paizo should put out a high-level sourcebook, covering levels 12-20, and introduce their "epic" system as being basically E20 (ie, E6 adapted upwards to support 20 levels instead of 6). This prevents quite a few problems that levels 21+ would create, such as the (supposedly) great powers of the multiverse becoming cannon fodder for super-high level characters. After all, if you're a stupidly high level cleric of Desna, at what point does it change from her granting you spells to you granting her spells? :P
I'd agree about the high level sourcebook. Your E20 doesn't sound too different frome what I suggested really minus the levels. If you're working on getting into the entry level deity job (saint / demigod) how would that qualify you to grant spells to an established deity? It makes you an "employee" of said deity actually. Not the boss. Duking it out with a super high level monster like a demon lords and the like is one thing, going toe to toe with a god is another entirely.
It won't get dropped. James is dying to stat up some of the nasty demon lords and the like, plus a certain Dark Tapestry figure.
All of the cagey "well, we could drop it, you never know!" stuff makes me think it might be sooner than we realize - though I do think we'll see a high level GameMastery Guide before we see an epic level GameMastery Guide.
Actually... while most of what I want to do happens here at Paizo... not everything does. No hardcover Tian Xia book, for example. And it took an extra 3 years to get Jade Regent off the ground.
Support and interest from lots of potential customers is the BEST way to convince us to do any book. Alas, support and interest from a smaller subset of customers is not. It's a battle, that's for sure!
(still crossing fingers for Mythic Level rules)
You and me both.
I do think that an important first step, as Erik Mona pointed out elsewhere, is a high-level sourcebook.
I'll be sure to report on my experiences at ConnectiCon; there will be a high-level Pathfinder game running there. As in really high.
So it makes sense to have a hard cap somewhere. We've already got rules for character levels 1-20. So wouldn't it make sense for that hard cap to be 20?It would. And if we DO decide to go with that, I'll still be able to stat up those demon lords (I'll just do them up like I did the old Demonomicon articles). The problem is that we have to unequivocally decide that 20 is the top for PCs, 'cause I don't want to build CR 30 versions of demon lords using the current rules only to have us come out with Mythic rules six months later.
I'll point out that it makes a ton of sense for Golarion to have a level cap. However, there's nothing inherent in non-Golarion above-20th-level play that mandates a level cap.
I'm all for a Golarion-centric level cap so that the world can be complete. But, you can bet your bottom dollar that if there's a level 'cap' there will be people (like me) that ignore it just like we ignore the current level 20 'cap'.
I don't see the need for a Golarion level cap and I'd love, love, love to see some workable higher-level rules in general (and I'd sure as Hell use them in Golarion).
Tian Xia hardcover, though? Do. Not. Want.
I will counter with level cap of 36 and I really want the Tian Xia hardcover, and then a Casmaron hardcover.
I will counter with level cap of 36 and I really want the Tian Xia hardcover, and then a Casmaron hardcover.I don't see the need for a Golarion level cap and I'd love, love, love to see some workable higher-level rules in general (and I'd sure as Hell use them in Golarion).
Tian Xia hardcover, though? Do. Not. Want.
I'll see your counter with a Primal Order port to Pathfinder, raise you both interplanetary and Dark Tapestry hardcovers, and go all in with requesting a Mythic Bestiary and Book of Challenges plus an associated non-base-subscription Epic Adventure Path starting at level 15.
Oh, and gargantuan and colossal minis. I need minis other than Tiamut, some chromatic dragons, the Great Cthulhu and that lame red dragon :)
I will counter with level cap of 36 and I really want the Tian Xia hardcover, and then a Casmaron hardcover.I don't see the need for a Golarion level cap and I'd love, love, love to see some workable higher-level rules in general (and I'd sure as Hell use them in Golarion).
Tian Xia hardcover, though? Do. Not. Want.
I'll see your counter with a Primal Order port to Pathfinder, raise you both interplanetary and Dark Tapestry hardcovers, and go all in with requesting a Mythic Bestiary and Book of Challenges plus an associated non-base-subscription Epic Adventure Path starting at level 15.
Oh, and gargantuan and colossal minis. I need minis other than Tiamut, some chromatic dragons, the Great Cthulhu and that lame red dragon :)
I will raise you a NPC bestiary.
I will counter with level cap of 36 and I really want the Tian Xia hardcover, and then a Casmaron hardcover.I don't see the need for a Golarion level cap and I'd love, love, love to see some workable higher-level rules in general (and I'd sure as Hell use them in Golarion).
Tian Xia hardcover, though? Do. Not. Want.
I'll see your counter with a Primal Order port to Pathfinder, raise you both interplanetary and Dark Tapestry hardcovers, and go all in with requesting a Mythic Bestiary and Book of Challenges plus an associated non-base-subscription Epic Adventure Path starting at level 15.
Oh, and gargantuan and colossal minis. I need minis other than Tiamut, some chromatic dragons, the Great Cthulhu and that lame red dragon :)
So, are we sure gambling is legal here? :)
So, are we sure gambling is legal here? :)I will counter with level cap of 36 and I really want the Tian Xia hardcover, and then a Casmaron hardcover.I don't see the need for a Golarion level cap and I'd love, love, love to see some workable higher-level rules in general (and I'd sure as Hell use them in Golarion).
Tian Xia hardcover, though? Do. Not. Want.
I'll see your counter with a Primal Order port to Pathfinder, raise you both interplanetary and Dark Tapestry hardcovers, and go all in with requesting a Mythic Bestiary and Book of Challenges plus an associated non-base-subscription Epic Adventure Path starting at level 15.
Oh, and gargantuan and colossal minis. I need minis other than Tiamut, some chromatic dragons, the Great Cthulhu and that lame red dragon :)
[Darth Sidious] I will make it legal[/Darth Sidious]
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Creative Director
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I'll point out that it makes a ton of sense for Golarion to have a level cap. However, there's nothing inherent in non-Golarion above-20th-level play that mandates a level cap.
I agree... and this, ironically, is not a good thing for folks who want us to do these rules. If we DO do Mythic level rules... we'll be responsible for supporting those rules somehow. Either by doing adventures for them now and then, or publishing sourcebooks, or maybe even doing a Mythic level adventure path. All of that stuff more or less requires a world to set it in, and if that world isn't Golarion... that means we need to build a new world. And suddenly, that's a HECK of a lot of more work, especially since we don't want to really sacrifice current levels of support for 1st-20th level content in Golarion.
It's a tricky thing to pull off, in other words.
I'll point out that it makes a ton of sense for Golarion to have a level cap. However, there's nothing inherent in non-Golarion above-20th-level play that mandates a level cap.
I agree... and this, ironically, is not a good thing for folks who want us to do these rules. If we DO do Mythic level rules... we'll be responsible for supporting those rules somehow. Either by doing adventures for them now and then, or publishing sourcebooks, or maybe even doing a Mythic level adventure path. All of that stuff more or less requires a world to set it in, and if that world isn't Golarion... that means we need to build a new world. And suddenly, that's a HECK of a lot of more work, especially since we don't want to really sacrifice current levels of support for 1st-20th level content in Golarion.
It's a tricky thing to pull off, in other words.
Why not just set the Epic level stuff on another continent, like say Casmaron around the Pit of Gormuz? If the epic stuff is so busy fighting each other they would have very little effect on the rest of the world.
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Why not just set the Epic level stuff on another continent, like say Casmaron around the Pit of Gormuz? If the epic stuff is so busy fighting each other they would have very little effect on the rest of the world.I'll point out that it makes a ton of sense for Golarion to have a level cap. However, there's nothing inherent in non-Golarion above-20th-level play that mandates a level cap.
I agree... and this, ironically, is not a good thing for folks who want us to do these rules. If we DO do Mythic level rules... we'll be responsible for supporting those rules somehow. Either by doing adventures for them now and then, or publishing sourcebooks, or maybe even doing a Mythic level adventure path. All of that stuff more or less requires a world to set it in, and if that world isn't Golarion... that means we need to build a new world. And suddenly, that's a HECK of a lot of more work, especially since we don't want to really sacrifice current levels of support for 1st-20th level content in Golarion.
It's a tricky thing to pull off, in other words.
What would stop a level 47 Wizard from waking up one day, teleporting over Avistan and taking it over within 6 hours?
Why not just set the Epic level stuff on another continent, like say Casmaron around the Pit of Gormuz? If the epic stuff is so busy fighting each other they would have very little effect on the rest of the world.
Or in the non-Material Planes. That's where the demon lords and such spend their time, after all :)
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Why not just set the Epic level stuff on another continent, like say Casmaron around the Pit of Gormuz? If the epic stuff is so busy fighting each other they would have very little effect on the rest of the world.What would stop a level 47 Wizard from waking up one day, teleporting over Avistan and taking it over within 6 hours?
The field around the Inner Sea continents that prohibit the physical entry of such powerful Beings,usually with explosive results? Ask Aroden about it...
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Creative Director
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Why not just set the Epic level stuff on another continent, like say Casmaron around the Pit of Gormuz? If the epic stuff is so busy fighting each other they would have very little effect on the rest of the world.
Doesn't save us from having to then build a bunch of Casmaron content. We've got a limited amount of books we can create at a time, and if we put too many eggs in one basket, folks who don't like eggs at all won't buy the basket.
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If we DO do Mythic level rules... we'll be responsible for supporting those rules somehow. Either by doing adventures for them now and then, or publishing sourcebooks, or maybe even doing a Mythic level adventure path. All of that stuff more or less requires a world to set it in, and if that world isn't Golarion... that means we need to build a new world. And suddenly, that's a HECK of a lot of more work, especially since we don't want to really sacrifice current levels of support for 1st-20th level content in Golarion.
Maybe the default setting could be not another world, but rather another time - Golarion in the Age of Myth. Maybe there was a time at the height of the Thassalon Empire or Aztlan when there were 47th level wizards in the world, fighting the Spawn of Rovag or the minions of the Whispering Tyrant. It might be a fun way to develop an important past epoch. People who wanted to do a then/now campaign could have their epic characters form the world their "modern" characters live in, and if someone wanted to do epic in current Golarion, they could simply transfer the rules, plus they'd have a nice sourcebook with information about the past. Heck, I'd buy it just for the past information even if I didn't want to play epic.
Might be fun to do an actual Golarion Modern setting someday, with one possible evolution of the timeline. I loved Greyhawk 2000 from that one Dragon magazine.
What would stop a level 47 Wizard from waking up one day, teleporting over Avistan and taking it over within 6 hours?Why not just set the Epic level stuff on another continent, like say Casmaron around the Pit of Gormuz? If the epic stuff is so busy fighting each other they would have very little effect on the rest of the world.I'll point out that it makes a ton of sense for Golarion to have a level cap. However, there's nothing inherent in non-Golarion above-20th-level play that mandates a level cap.
I agree... and this, ironically, is not a good thing for folks who want us to do these rules. If we DO do Mythic level rules... we'll be responsible for supporting those rules somehow. Either by doing adventures for them now and then, or publishing sourcebooks, or maybe even doing a Mythic level adventure path. All of that stuff more or less requires a world to set it in, and if that world isn't Golarion... that means we need to build a new world. And suddenly, that's a HECK of a lot of more work, especially since we don't want to really sacrifice current levels of support for 1st-20th level content in Golarion.
It's a tricky thing to pull off, in other words.
The other level 47 wizards. Seriously though who says there aren't epic level people in the Inner Sea region as well. Tar-Baphon was for sure, Geb and Nex strike me as possibilities as well. Arazni, Iomeade before she became a god, etc. I just meant there would need to be a higher concentration of them around the Pit of Gormuz to deal with the occasional escapee.
Why not just set the Epic level stuff on another continent, like say Casmaron around the Pit of Gormuz? If the epic stuff is so busy fighting each other they would have very little effect on the rest of the world.Doesn't save us from having to then build a bunch of Casmaron content. We've got a limited amount of books we can create at a time, and if we put too many eggs in one basket, folks who don't like eggs at all won't buy the basket.
So you are saying it depends on how well the Tian Xia stuff does? :)
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Creative Director
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So you are saying it depends on how well the Tian Xia stuff does? :)Why not just set the Epic level stuff on another continent, like say Casmaron around the Pit of Gormuz? If the epic stuff is so busy fighting each other they would have very little effect on the rest of the world.Doesn't save us from having to then build a bunch of Casmaron content. We've got a limited amount of books we can create at a time, and if we put too many eggs in one basket, folks who don't like eggs at all won't buy the basket.
To a certain extent yes.
If the Tian Xia stuff tanks and no one likes it, chances of us doing anything involving any of Golarion's other continents plummets dramatically. I don't THINK this'll happen; advance anticipation for Jade Regent and the other Tian Xia stuff is really high... but I also thought "Nightbreed" was going to be a blockbuster when I saw it back in 1990.
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I hope you guys get around to releasing an epci level set of rules so that the Demon/Devil lords can be written up. I'm just wondering if that would make it necessary to rereleaae both books of the damned.
Again, a desire for stats for archdevils, demon lords, and the like would be better served by knowing exactly where a hard level cap for the game would be set. And the problem with expanding that past 20 is that six months after you put out a supplement detailing levels 21-X, there will be just as much demand on these boards for level X+1 and beyond. So you can just keep pumping them out, and NEVER stat up the demon lords/archdevils/etc, or put some stats down for them and accept the fact that to Twink McMunchkin, 90th level, Orcus might as well be a kobold.
I hope you guys get around to releasing an epci level set of rules so that the Demon/Devil lords can be written up. I'm just wondering if that would make it necessary to rereleaae both books of the damned.Again, a desire for stats for archdevils, demon lords, and the like would be better served by knowing exactly where a hard level cap for the game would be set. And the problem with expanding that past 20 is that six months after you put out a supplement detailing levels 21-X, there will be just as much demand on these boards for level X+1 and beyond. So you can just keep pumping them out, and NEVER stat up the demon lords/archdevils/etc, or put some stats down for them and accept the fact that to Twink McMunchkin, 90th level, Orcus might as well be a kobold.
First off I don't think Paizo would be able to put out a post Epic book, unless the Epic book sold better then any Epic book before it had. Especially if they have already done a high level game mastering book. Second if you say anything above the hard level cap for epic makes you divine, then even if you put out a post epic book, it would completely change what you are dealing with.
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I hope you guys get around to releasing an epci level set of rules so that the Demon/Devil lords can be written up. I'm just wondering if that would make it necessary to rereleaae both books of the damned.
Nope.
What'd be cool would be to do a Mythic bestiary though; such a book would have lots of demon lords, arch devils, horsemen of apocalypses, empyrial lords, and so on.
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Second if you say anything above the hard level cap for epic makes you divine.
No, that's pretty much exactly the opposite of what I would hope for. I don't think that ANY ammount of XP should make you cross the divide between mortal and divine. To my mind, when you hit a level cap, you simply stop advancing in power. Like I said before, the attaining of divinity should be plot-based, not mechanics based.
And the problem with expanding that past 20 is that six months after you put out a supplement detailing levels 21-X, there will be just as much demand on these boards for level X+1 and beyond. So you can just keep pumping them out, and NEVER stat up the demon lords/archdevils/etc, or put some stats down for them and accept the fact that to Twink McMunchkin, 90th level, Orcus might as well be a kobold.
I disagree, I don't think we will continually need to see material from Paizo for even higher mythic level play.
Sure, there will always be those that want to see higher level material, but if Paizo decides to do a Mythic Level book (which I hope they do), they can put a hard cap on the the mythic levels and James can design the archdevils, demon lords and the like off of those levels.
Where I would like to see levels past 20, there is a point where they have to go “this is as far as we will design to”. James has said more than once that if they do mythic levels, it will be a hard cap (which I agree with). Usually what I’ve heard is around 36. If players really want to go beyond that, they can keep progressing their character, like I am sure players are doing now post 20th. Maybe Paizo would give some rules and suggestions on post-36th level play (if that’s the level they chose).
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Seriously though who says there aren't epic level people in the Inner Sea region as well. Tar-Baphon was for sure, Geb and Nex strike me as possibilities as well. Arazni, Iomeade before she became a god, etc.
Arazni and Iomeade became gods by touching the Starstone. While it's certainly to be tough to get to, I doubt that the Starstone itself makes a distinction between someone of level 19 who touches it and someone of level 21. In fact, I think one interesting thing that Paizo COULD do would be to introduce a minor god who was just an average 1st level commoner who came in contact with the Starstone before Aroden put it in the Temple. A guy who, despite having existed as a god for a few thousand years now, is still kinda dumbfounded by the whole experience.
I guess part of the reason I've become increasingly opposed to post-20th level play is that I think the game is more fun if you actually have viable challenges. Breezing through oposition is rather boring to me. And 20th level characters are already paragons of power...some might even argue they're already far too powerful.
Second if you say anything above the hard level cap for epic makes you divine.No, that's pretty much exactly the opposite of what I would hope for. I don't think that ANY ammount of XP should make you cross the divide between mortal and divine. To my mind, when you hit a level cap, you simply stop advancing in power. Like I said before, the attaining of divinity should be plot-based, not mechanics based.
I phrased that badly actually (that is what happens when you wake up in the middle of the night and post). I meant one thing they could do is have an Epic adventure path, that ends in the Temple of the Starstone.
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Second if you say anything above the hard level cap for epic makes you divine.No, that's pretty much exactly the opposite of what I would hope for. I don't think that ANY ammount of XP should make you cross the divide between mortal and divine. To my mind, when you hit a level cap, you simply stop advancing in power. Like I said before, the attaining of divinity should be plot-based, not mechanics based.I phrased that badly actually (that is what happens when you wake up in the middle of the night and post). I meant one thing they could do is have an Epic adventure path, that ends in the Temple of the Starstone.
I'd prefer things such as Test of Startsone and Aroden's Fate to be left intentionally blank for ever.
This way every GM can use his own vision of the events. I really disliked the "Everything Must Be Described" mentality of Forgotten Realms.
Seriously though who says there aren't epic level people in the Inner Sea region as well. Tar-Baphon was for sure, Geb and Nex strike me as possibilities as well. Arazni, Iomeade before she became a god, etc.Arazni and Iomeade became gods by touching the Starstone. While it's certainly to be tough to get to, I doubt that the Starstone itself makes a distinction between someone of level 19 who touches it and someone of level 21. In fact, I think one interesting thing that Paizo COULD do would be to introduce a minor god who was just an average 1st level commoner who came in contact with the Starstone before Aroden put it in the Temple. A guy who, despite having existed as a god for a few thousand years now, is still kinda dumbfounded by the whole experience.
I guess part of the reason I've become increasingly opposed to post-20th level play is that I think the game is more fun if you actually have viable challenges. Breezing through oposition is rather boring to me. And 20th level characters are already paragons of power...some might even argue they're already far too powerful.
And I get your reasoning for being opposed. I personally only want to see 1 epic book that allows up to a specific epic level cap (maybe with a page that says if you want to keep going here are some options). And I would really like it to be tied to almost an ancient world setting (Greece, Babylon, etc) The trials of Hercules kind of thing. Travelling the planes opposing demon lords, demigods, etc. That sort of mythic setting.
Second if you say anything above the hard level cap for epic makes you divine.No, that's pretty much exactly the opposite of what I would hope for. I don't think that ANY ammount of XP should make you cross the divide between mortal and divine. To my mind, when you hit a level cap, you simply stop advancing in power. Like I said before, the attaining of divinity should be plot-based, not mechanics based.I phrased that badly actually (that is what happens when you wake up in the middle of the night and post). I meant one thing they could do is have an Epic adventure path, that ends in the Temple of the Starstone.
I'd prefer things such as Test of Startsone and Aroden's Fate to be left intentionally blank for ever.
This way every GM can use his own vision of the events. I really disliked the "Everything Must Be Described" mentality of Forgotten Realms.
I was thinking more of the getting to the Starstone, with maybe an article in the 6th book describing ideas for the test, as I assume each one is different. Kind of like how they used to do the Tower of High Sorcery tests in Dragonlance.
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I was thinking more of the getting to the Starstone, with maybe an article in the 6th book describing ideas for the test, as I assume each one is different. Kind of like how they used to do the Tower of High Sorcery tests in Dragonlance.Second if you say anything above the hard level cap for epic makes you divine.No, that's pretty much exactly the opposite of what I would hope for. I don't think that ANY ammount of XP should make you cross the divide between mortal and divine. To my mind, when you hit a level cap, you simply stop advancing in power. Like I said before, the attaining of divinity should be plot-based, not mechanics based.I phrased that badly actually (that is what happens when you wake up in the middle of the night and post). I meant one thing they could do is have an Epic adventure path, that ends in the Temple of the Starstone.
I'd prefer things such as Test of Startsone and Aroden's Fate to be left intentionally blank for ever.
This way every GM can use his own vision of the events. I really disliked the "Everything Must Be Described" mentality of Forgotten Realms.
Getting in is easy - get drunk and start wandering around Absalom aimlessly. ;-)
Getting in is easy - get drunk and start wandering around Absalom aimlessly. ;-)I was thinking more of the getting to the Starstone, with maybe an article in the 6th book describing ideas for the test, as I assume each one is different. Kind of like how they used to do the Tower of High Sorcery tests in Dragonlance.Second if you say anything above the hard level cap for epic makes you divine.No, that's pretty much exactly the opposite of what I would hope for. I don't think that ANY ammount of XP should make you cross the divide between mortal and divine. To my mind, when you hit a level cap, you simply stop advancing in power. Like I said before, the attaining of divinity should be plot-based, not mechanics based.I phrased that badly actually (that is what happens when you wake up in the middle of the night and post). I meant one thing they could do is have an Epic adventure path, that ends in the Temple of the Starstone.
I'd prefer things such as Test of Startsone and Aroden's Fate to be left intentionally blank for ever.
This way every GM can use his own vision of the events. I really disliked the "Everything Must Be Described" mentality of Forgotten Realms.
Maybe who know what he did to get? No one including him. ;)
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Maybe who know what he did to get? No one including him. ;)Getting in is easy - get drunk and start wandering around Absalom aimlessly. ;-)I was thinking more of the getting to the Starstone, with maybe an article in the 6th book describing ideas for the test, as I assume each one is different. Kind of like how they used to do the Tower of High Sorcery tests in Dragonlance.Second if you say anything above the hard level cap for epic makes you divine.No, that's pretty much exactly the opposite of what I would hope for. I don't think that ANY ammount of XP should make you cross the divide between mortal and divine. To my mind, when you hit a level cap, you simply stop advancing in power. Like I said before, the attaining of divinity should be plot-based, not mechanics based.I phrased that badly actually (that is what happens when you wake up in the middle of the night and post). I meant one thing they could do is have an Epic adventure path, that ends in the Temple of the Starstone.
I'd prefer things such as Test of Startsone and Aroden's Fate to be left intentionally blank for ever.
This way every GM can use his own vision of the events. I really disliked the "Everything Must Be Described" mentality of Forgotten Realms.
On a more serious note, reflect how the "get in" part was tied with the god's personality and portfolio.
Iomedae arrived with a legion of paladins, entered the Cathedral with fanfare and glory, reasserting her status as a holy champion of warfare against evil. There was much rejoicing and flowers thrown in the air.
Norgorber entered in mysterious ways, unseen, unheard, and almost unnoticed. He's the god of secrets and stealth.
Cayden stumbled into the Cathedral while joyfully drunk, livin la vida loca. And that's how he ended up :)
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Arazni and Iomeade became gods by touching the Starstone. While it's certainly to be tough to get to, I doubt that the Starstone itself makes a distinction between someone of level 19 who touches it and someone of level 21. In fact, I think one interesting thing that Paizo COULD do would be to introduce a minor god who was just an average 1st level commoner who came in contact with the Starstone before Aroden put it in the Temple. A guy who, despite having existed as a god for a few thousand years now, is still kinda dumbfounded by the whole experience.
I guess part of the reason I've become increasingly opposed to post-20th level play is that I think the game is more fun if you actually have viable challenges. Breezing through oposition is rather boring to me. And 20th level characters are already paragons of power...some might even argue they're already far too powerful.
Actually, Arazni never took the test of the Starstone.
The method by which she became a demigod is still kinda hazy, but it's EXACTLY the type of content we'd need to sort out for a post 20th-level ruleset, since what she did, PCs should be able to do.
And as for post 20th level play... if we can't make these rules do "viable challenges" we won't do the rules at all.
I'm not interested in making Mythic level rules be all about being overpowered and unstoppable. I'm interested in extending the game play folks like about the current game into a realm where you're doing things like slaying demon lords, crafting artifacts, fighting armies with just a PC group, reshaping worlds, and becoming gods. To scratch the surface.
Done correctly, the rules will continue fun gameplay into the post 20th level range WITHOUT ruining the 1st through 20th level experience. It'll be an addition to the game, so folks who don't want to use it won't need to.
Arazni and Iomeade became gods by touching the Starstone. While it's certainly to be tough to get to, I doubt that the Starstone itself makes a distinction between someone of level 19 who touches it and someone of level 21. In fact, I think one interesting thing that Paizo COULD do would be to introduce a minor god who was just an average 1st level commoner who came in contact with the Starstone before Aroden put it in the Temple. A guy who, despite having existed as a god for a few thousand years now, is still kinda dumbfounded by the whole experience.
I guess part of the reason I've become increasingly opposed to post-20th level play is that I think the game is more fun if you actually have viable challenges. Breezing through oposition is rather boring to me. And 20th level characters are already paragons of power...some might even argue they're already far too powerful.
Actually, Arazni never took the test of the Starstone.
The method by which she became a demigod is still kinda hazy, but it's EXACTLY the type of content we'd need to sort out for a post 20th-level ruleset, since what she did, PCs should be able to do.
And as for post 20th level play... if we can't make these rules do "viable challenges" we won't do the rules at all.
I'm not interested in making Mythic level rules be all about being overpowered and unstoppable. I'm interested in extending the game play folks like about the current game into a realm where you're doing things like slaying demon lords, crafting artifacts, fighting armies with just a PC group, reshaping worlds, and becoming gods. To scratch the surface.
Done correctly, the rules will continue fun gameplay into the post 20th level range WITHOUT ruining the 1st through 20th level experience. It'll be an addition to the game, so folks who don't want to use it won't need to.
+1
Been doing it for years. It requires the right group, and the right mindset, but it's a blast.
I still think, however, that when high-level rules are tackled it's in Paizo's best interest to have a set of rules that's only *supported* up to a given level (e.g. 36) and anything outside of that is unsupported in Golarion.
That way, there's nothing in canon that involves 47th-level wizards, etc.
If at some point in the far, hazy future there's enough interest, maybe they would be expanded. Maybe not. I'm sure an in-campaign rational could be made for something that prevents the super-high-level characters from sticking around. Maybe it's as simple as the gods stomp on them like a bug, or maybe they go Elsewhere. Who knows. Not even really relevant.
All I'm really looking for is some relatively "low power" above-20 rules as building blocks, and I think those would support Golarion directly.
Any of the uber-high-level stuff would have to come later, if at all, and there would be no need for Paizo to support it directly - it's easy for the design staff to say "we support character levels 1-36" (kind of like they do now, but for 1-36 instead of 1-20) and not even worry about anything else.
I think crossing that mythic divide between 20 and 21 requires becoming a being of pure energy, a true outsider, and when that point is reached, the God of Epicness arrives and whisks characters away for their Epic Outsider training, where all their class levels are replaced with Outsider hitdice and they take on an outsider type dependent on their previous class, and begin taking class levels again as a 20 HD outsider.
So level 20 fighter becomes a 20 HD outsider with 1 fighter level. He gains cool martial outsider powers but loses class features in the exchange, and is forbidden from interaction with mortals until he has either proven he is a worthy servant of the Good or powerful enough as an Evil force that his interaction can't be prevented.
Play progresses from that point forward strictly on the outer planes.
If a character is not ready to ascend when the God of Epicness comes, the God of Epicness grants a ten year haitus, where the level 20 character can no longer gain XP, but is free to tie up mortal affairs. This reprieve is only granted once. If the level 20 is still not ready when the God of Epicness comes again, the character can no longer advance as they choose a mortal life. (Or immortal life, if they're a lich.)
Monks, being outsiders already at level 20, would get some kind of special rules. Maybe they get drafted into the rules enforcement division, which allows them to pick how many monk levels they exchange for outsider hitdice, but they can't progress any more as a monk until they have at least 20 outsider hitdice.
I don't know, just some ideas off the top of my head for having post 20+ without having it impact Golarion.
Or maybe post-20 levels are getting to take Gestalt levels on existing levels. Level 20 barb hits 21 and begins progressing as a level 20 bard/level 1 sorc gestalt. So he still has 20d12 HD and 20 BAB, but all the benefits of a level 1 sorc too. Then level 22 is 20 barb/2 sorc gestalt. And so on.
I hope you guys get around to releasing an epci level set of rules so that the Demon/Devil lords can be written up. I'm just wondering if that would make it necessary to rereleaae both books of the damned.Nope.
What'd be cool would be to do a Mythic bestiary though; such a book would have lots of demon lords, arch devils, horsemen of apocalypses, empyrial lords, and so on.
Maybe you should do it backwards. Do this book first and everyone will want to get a piece of the action.
Maybe what really sets apart post-20th level characters is what they can do with their hero points.
I know that hero points are an optional rule but so would the Mythic rules be for some folks. Why not bulid the Mythic rules around the hero point system?
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Maybe you should do it backwards. Do this book first and everyone will want to get a piece of the action.I hope you guys get around to releasing an epci level set of rules so that the Demon/Devil lords can be written up. I'm just wondering if that would make it necessary to rereleaae both books of the damned.Nope.
What'd be cool would be to do a Mythic bestiary though; such a book would have lots of demon lords, arch devils, horsemen of apocalypses, empyrial lords, and so on.
The problem with this is that they'd have to develop the Mythic system, then develop the monster book, then actually release the mythic system...
Not really. Go back and look at Demogorgon in Dragon/Dungeon. He was the most powerful demon prince ever statted up and had very little in the way of actual epic content. He was just uber badass.
That's kind of my point. You don't need the epic rules to play epic. You need high-level rules to help with the options that are already there.
Some of the epic rules were kind of silly. Freeze BAB to halt iterative attack progression? Why not leave BAB alone and simply rule that you can't have more than 4 iterative attacks unless you're using spells/feats/whatever?
Again: the simple framework is already in place. Just clean it up a little. Don't make a whole new system that's going to clutter it all up.
Some of the epic rules were kind of silly. Freeze BAB to halt iterative attack progression? Why not leave BAB alone and simply rule that you can't have more than 4 iterative attacks unless you're using spells/feats/whatever?
I'd say it was to keep the fighter classes ahead - they're the only ones that end up with 4 iterative attacks. It always made sense to me - if that was the core of your training, then you'd have that advantage.
Kind of like learning a language as an adult vs. as a child - you can learn a language as an adult, but it's not as effective or ingrained.
A review; I have made one. Huzzah!
Ok long story short in my first campaign my Tiefling Bladebound Magus has come face to face with his demon father who's Black Blade was powered by his father. After being tested he was given the choice to accept grand demonic powers (by becoming a demon) or having the the power of his Black Blade purified and be set free back to do good. My character wouldn't have said no and now we've come to a conundrum. My character has become a Demon (gained the demonic subtype), was given a whole bunch of powers akin to his new demonic form.
But I brought up the question do demons sleep? Meaning that as a spellcaster do I need to have some form of "rest" before the next day to refresh my spells? I have an active ring of sustenance on as well, if that changes anything. I looked through this book for advice, but unfortunately couldn't find anything saying that they do other than 1 type of demon requires rest for its sacrifice?
Thanks in advance for any advice!?
"Rest" is not sleep. It is a period of time where you prepare and refresh yourself for the effort ahead.
In other words, yes, even demons need that period of time before they can memorize spells, and a ring of sustenance doesn't do anything except for keep you from getting hungry during that mandatory rest period :)
In other, other words, it's a game rule for balance purposes. Just being a demon doesn't invalidate it.
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Creative Director
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Whether or not a specific type of creature sleeps is generally dictated by that creature's type, and those descriptions are part of the main rules in the Bestiary—under the description of the Outsider type on page 309 of the Bestiary:
"Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep."
Skipping ahead to page 311, where the demon subtype is presented, we see that there's nothing said about any of this at all, indicating that demons just use their regular outsider rules for whether or not they sleep.
So... there's nothing about whether demons sleep or not in "Lords of Chaos" because that topic was already covered in the Bestiary—they don't sleep.
SO! In your case, with your character gaining the demon subtype... unless that also changed your main type from Humanoid to Outsider, yes, you do still need to sleep/rest to regain your spells.
(Note that not needing to sleep does not grant you the ability to prepare spells more than once per day.)
SO! In your case, with your character gaining the demon subtype... unless that also changed your main type from Humanoid to Outsider, yes, you do still need to sleep/rest to regain your spells.
(Note that not needing to sleep does not grant you the ability to prepare spells more than once per day.)
Huh. I just noticed that the text for wizard specifically mentions sleep; I'd always recalled it saying rest or something similar. Maybe I'm remembering AD&D or something :)
I thought I recalled that 3.5e specified (somewhere) if you didn't get 'rest' of some sort (even if you were a type of creatures that didn't need sleep), you couldn't memorize spells. However, it's been a long time since I checked what the actual requirements are, and it surprised me.
Alchemists, Bards, Inquisitors, Oracles, Rangers, Sorcerers and Summoners seem to have no requirements whatsoever. Apparently all their new spells (or extracts) are available at 12:00:01 AM local time with no action necessary on their part (though alchemists still must prepare their extracts).
Clerics, Druids and Paladins must spend an hour in meditation before they select their spells but there's no mention of sleep.
Magi, Witches and Wizards must get 8 hours of sleep and then spend 1 hour memorizing spells.
So, only Magi, Witches and Wizards get hosed by the mandatory 8 hours of sleep, and even then (per James, above), only if they are creatures that need sleep.
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Creative Director
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Honestly, it's up to the GM, since the use of the word "rest" and "sleep" and the like is really pretty vague in the class descriptions.
And since if you're allowing a race that doesn't sleep, you're probably allowing some more significant changes to the expectations of what a player character race can do... you're already deep in "Ask your GM for clarification" already.
Whether or not a specific type of creature sleeps is generally dictated by that creature's type, and those descriptions are part of the main rules in the Bestiary—under the description of the Outsider type on page 309 of the Bestiary:
"Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep."
Skipping ahead to page 311, where the demon subtype is presented, we see that there's nothing said about any of this at all, indicating that demons just use their regular outsider rules for whether or not they sleep.
So... there's nothing about whether demons sleep or not in "Lords of Chaos" because that topic was already covered in the Bestiary—they don't sleep.
SO! In your case, with your character gaining the demon subtype... unless that also changed your main type from Humanoid to Outsider, yes, you do still need to sleep/rest to regain your spells.
(Note that not needing to sleep does not grant you the ability to prepare spells more than once per day.)
Wow I got a reply from James! I feel all tingly inside! Thank you so much for answering, I "believe" my GM may be leaning towards my demonic change having completely altered my original, My father being a SHemhazian Demon, I was asked to envision my form, so I kept it tiefling-esque humanoid but changed to large size, leathery hide, bat wings, fangs, and his horns and tail grew as well. But either way I'd still fall under the Native Outside, and require rest as normal.
I had not looked in the bestiary before this being my first ever DnD campaign but I do love message boards! But this makes for some interesting enemy/possibly overpowered pc options.Thanks again guys!