Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Player's Guide (OGL)

HOPEFULLY... we'll have an announcement about the Playtests for this book next week sometime on the blog.

Dear James,

Thank you soo much for entertaining this rather silly request for as long as you do.

Does anyone know if this book or the Gamemeastery guide will include epic levles for the base classess? Imo it is needed badly.

Does anyone know if this book or the Gamemeastery guide will include epic levles for the base classess? Imo it is needed badly.

i don't think it will although i do agree with you. I have a game that is about to reach epic levels soon (around 16th) and an expansion of epic level rules, while nice, could fill a book about this size on its own. I don't think the piazo team has even begun work on the epic level rules, though i would like to have faith otherwise.

i do believe that the most requested things for a Pathfinder "remake" have been:

Psionics
Epic
and Monsters as PC's

...so it does stand to reason seeing how there is a large customer base for these demanded things, they will probably eventually make them. However, they have more pressing concerns about releasing the core books first. To be honest, i'm surprised they're already about to release a splat beta test. Happy! but surprised.

Does anyone know if this book or the Gamemeastery guide will include epic levles for the base classess? Imo it is needed badly.

I think it's unlikely. I figure the epic rules will come in a book of their own, with serious public playtesting beforehand. IIRC the only playtesting for this book is the new classes, starting this week.

Really impressed with Pathfinder material so far. Looking forward to test the new classes released.

Hur hur hur

This will be fun

Not sure about other people, but most of the games I have played in haven't gone anywhere near epic levels. I guess with the APs it helps out quite a bit, but I think the majority of players would not benefit from an Epic rules manual just yet.

This is all good news, and with the playtest announced, I can't wait. However, I have heard of rumors in the past of the Blackguard ( Anti-Paladinish )and Templar( A Paladin for all the other Alignments ) Core Classes, and there is no mention of them anywhere here. Are they not to be included in this Volume ?

This is all good news, and with the playtest announced, I can't wait. However, I have heard of rumors in the past of the Blackguard ( Anti-Paladinish )and Templar( A Paladin for all the other Alignments ) Core Classes, and there is no mention of them anywhere here. Are they not to be included in this Volume ?

I suspect they'll be in as Paladin Variants rather than whole new classes.

It is indeed confirmed that they will be alternate classes rather than whole new ones. Which makes sense, the six new classes are mechanically very different from the original 6, all defined to fit some uncovered niche or concept.

There won't be much, if anything at all, about epic level play in either the Gamemastery Guide or the Advanced Player's Guide. That's a topic for its own book, a book still some time away from publication.

It is indeed confirmed that they will be alternate classes rather than whole new ones. Which makes sense, the six new classes are mechanically very different from the original 6, all defined to fit some uncovered niche or concept.

Indeed ? Where is this confirmation, because I missed it somehow. I'm fairly certain I read these would be 20 level classes. In fact that was part of the reason Blackguard was not included in the Core Book, because they felt it deserved its own 20 level progression. Also, I believe they stated that they didn't want it to just be the polar opposite of the Paladin ( Detect Good instead of Evil, etc...), but something that was its own Class. I'll try to find the original posts.

vagrant-poet wrote:

It is indeed confirmed that they will be alternate classes rather than whole new ones. Which makes sense, the six new classes are mechanically very different from the original 6, all defined to fit some uncovered niche or concept.

Indeed ? Where is this confirmation, because I missed it somehow. I'm fairly certain I read these would be 20 level classes. In fact that was part of the reason Blackguard was not included in the Core Book, because they felt it deserved its own 20 level progression. Also, I believe they stated that they didn't want it to just be the polar opposite of the Paladin ( Detect Good instead of Evil, etc...), but something that was its own Class. I'll try to find the original posts.

Well, the 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming Anti-Paladin is the CE equivalent to a Paladin - a dedicated, passionate, zealous harbinger of death, chaos, and destruction, whereas a Blackguard is a fallen Paladin - someone who has lost faith and turned to darkness. At least that's the concept behind the difference.

Notice they want to get Cavalier and Oracle out first. Personally I'd think that the Alchemist and Summoner might be tricky enough that they'd want to start the playtest on those right away.

Notice they want to get Cavalier and Oracle out first. Personally I'd think that the Alchemist and Summoner might be tricky enough that they'd want to start the playtest on those right away.

It's quite possible that the are tricky enough, and are undergoing fine tuning still...

Notice they want to get Cavalier and Oracle out first. Personally I'd think that the Alchemist and Summoner might be tricky enough that they'd want to start the playtest on those right away.

We're going with Cavalier and Oracle first because when design began, those were the two who were going to have their sketches done first. As it worked out, Wayne got us all six sketches in, but by that point the Cavalier and Oracle were already mostly done.

So... the schedule has little to do with "which ones need the most work" and everything to do with "which ones can we illustrate first."

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

Notice they want to get Cavalier and Oracle out first. Personally I'd think that the Alchemist and Summoner might be tricky enough that they'd want to start the playtest on those right away.

We're going with Cavalier and Oracle first because when design began, those were the two who were going to have their sketches done first. As it worked out, Wayne got us all six sketches in, but by that point the Cavalier and Oracle were already mostly done.

So... the schedule has little to do with "which ones need the most work" and everything to do with "which ones can we illustrate first."

I SEE IT IS ALL WAYNE'S FAULT...GRRRRR. Actually, did he draw the summoner as a gnome. That may save him from my wrath.If not He is an amzing artist,and I guess I can be patient. Haruummph

James Jacobs wrote:

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

Notice they want to get Cavalier and Oracle out first. Personally I'd think that the Alchemist and Summoner might be tricky enough that they'd want to start the playtest on those right away.

We're going with Cavalier and Oracle first because when design began, those were the two who were going to have their sketches done first. As it worked out, Wayne got us all six sketches in, but by that point the Cavalier and Oracle were already mostly done.

So... the schedule has little to do with "which ones need the most work" and everything to do with "which ones can we illustrate first."

I SEE IT IS ALL WAYNE'S FAULT...GRRRRR. Actually, did he draw the summoner as a gnome. That may save him from my wrath.If not He is an amzing artist,and I guess I can be patient. Haruummph

Umm... where are these illustrations you are referring to? I don't believe I have seen the gnome summoner...

They'll be released as the class are released. So you'll get too on Friday

I wonder if complaining about the ¨O¨ word ill delay it untill saturday.

There won't be much, if anything at all, about epic level play in either the Gamemastery Guide or the Advanced Player's Guide. That's a topic for its own book, a book still some time away from publication.

I hope not too long. It is pointless to promote Pathfinder as a seperate brand from 3.5 when people are forced to use a 3.5. book for epic levels. Best thing to do imo as soon as possible is to make it as self contained as you can. All you had to do was make it 3.5 compaitalbe. As much as I like a books about the gnomes and orcs of galorion I think the epic level and psionics book should take more precedance.

As much as I like a books about the gnomes and orcs of galorion I think the epic level and psionics book should take more precedance.

I disagree as I have no use for epic level and psionics. I'd prefer Paizo continue with their current schedule.

I disagree as I have no use for epic level and psionics. I'd prefer Paizo continue with their current schedule.

I agree with this disagreement ;) Epic and Psionics are so far down the list of things that I want to see that I can't see them on the list from here.

Callous Jack wrote:

I disagree as I have no use for epic level and psionics. I'd prefer Paizo continue with their current schedule.

I agree with this disagreement ;) Epic and Psionics are so far down the list of things that I want to see that I can't see them on the list from here.

They didn't make it onto my list.

James Jacobs wrote:

There won't be much, if anything at all, about epic level play in either the Gamemastery Guide or the Advanced Player's Guide. That's a topic for its own book, a book still some time away from publication.

I hope not too long. It is pointless to promote Pathfinder as a seperate brand from 3.5 when people are forced to use a 3.5. book for epic levels. Best thing to do imo as soon as possible is to make it as self contained as you can. All you had to do was make it 3.5 compaitalbe. As much as I like a books about the gnomes and orcs of galorion I think the epic level and psionics book should take more precedance.

3rd Edition was just fine without epic level rules; it was 2 or 3 years after the release of the game before the Epic Level rulebook came out anyway, and there was NEVER a rulebook updated for 3.5 (although the SRD was sorta updated for the 3.5 rules for epic content).

Pathfinder is not "crippled" without an epic level rulebook any more than it is by a "missing psioncis book" or a "missing race book" or a "missing car chase rulebook." There is a LOT of extra content already out there that's compatible with Pathfinder if you want to use a non-core set of rules; that's the WHOLE POINT of making the game copmpatible with 3.5 after all.

Which is another way of saying that there's nothing wrong with using 3.5 content with Pathfinder. I do it all the time in my home games and when I'm developing and writing stuff for Paizo.

We are very likely to be doing something with the post-20th-level game within the next 3 years, but it's not going to happen in 2010 for sure.

The book's been out a whole 3 months. If you're getting into Epic Level issues already, slow down the experience progression and/or start everyone at level one. I've never had a character even make it to level 20, so Epic Level campaigns are a bit beyond my experience.

I understand that the Epic level book is not a priority. Neither should it take forever. Otherwise Pathfinder will not be seen as Pathfinder imo just another "3.5. clone". So far some of those who I know who are holding out on getting Pathfinder is because their is no epic level book or psionic book. They see no reason to buy Pathfinder to be told "buy or book but use 3.5. to fill in the gaps". Their resposne is why "why should I buy Pathfinder then". The burden of proof right now is on Paizo to convince 3.5 holdouts to buy their product.

I work in retail and I can tell you promoting your product while promting 3.5 at the same time imo is a mistake. You don't see those in charge of promoting Harry Potter telling people to read Philip Pullmans Dark Materials trilogy. Pathfinder and only Pathfinder should be the focus. Not previous books of 3.5. Otherwise why bother going through all the trouble and time working and promting your own game. To myself that is very counter productive.

I am not saying do it now just don't take forever. To me Pathfinder feels uncomplete. Still very useable and workable but missing psionmics and epic levels. Sure I can buy the 3.5 verison of the books but I'm using Pathfinder not 3.5. Telling me to use the competiton books is not a very smart thing to do imo. It's not a big thing and I will still play Pathfinder. Don't be surprsied if I will ask ever now and then for the Epic level/Psionic books.

The irony here is that those who do not want to buy Pathinfer are huge 3.5 fans and hate 4E. While I like 4E and DM a game.

The book's been out a whole 3 months. If you're getting into Epic Level issues already, slow down the experience progression and/or start everyone at level one. I've never had a character even make it to level 20, so Epic Level campaigns are a bit beyond my experience.

You do realize that some gamers who bought Pathfinder are not starting at first level but actually continuing their games right. Converting them over rather then starting over. So for some Epic levels are needed.

Ignatz wrote:

Uuh Hopefully not to much optional stuff. When things started getting in to the skills and powers stuff is when things stared loosing cohesion for me. new classes great! How people build characters drasticly different not so much.

There'll be a fair amount of new stuff... but the point we're hoping to achieve here is to get it all done in this one single volume. We don't really have an interest in continually churning out APG after APG over and over. We're hoping to cover most of what we need and want to do with rules expansions for base classes in this one book, and then going forward have different themed rulebooks. (There might be an Asian book, for example, that talks about new options you can apply to existing classes to give them an Asian feel, but that's different in my opinion than a bunch of new options not tied to a specific type of campaign.)

One word ..Awesome

Ignatz

Lyingbastard wrote:

The book's been out a whole 3 months. If you're getting into Epic Level issues already, slow down the experience progression and/or start everyone at level one. I've never had a character even make it to level 20, so Epic Level campaigns are a bit beyond my experience.

You do realize that some gamers who bought Pathfinder are not starting at first level but actually continuing their games right. Converting them over rather then starting over. So for some Epic levels are needed.

But the whole point is that you can continue to use your current material, whatever it might be. And as James just pointed out, the Epic material for 3.0 did not come out for a couple years after 3.0 came out. You can't expect any company to come out with Epic Rules, that require a lot of testing and work to fit in with what they've done so far to come out too fast.

I can understand wanting more, but I personally want it done right, and so far Paizo has not disappointed. If folks want fast, use the old material until the new is available.

Some people, such as myself, want my games to go past 20th-level. Not all of us see 20th-level as the limit, just a breaking point (like 5th level, and 10th-level feels like to us).

My group is heavily inspired by japanese anime and comic books, so yes, I'd like to run a very comic-book, anime-inspired, DBZ-action type game where my PCs can play characters that can take on a flight of great red wyrms, eat a tarrasque for breakfast, bring hell to Hell itself, or battle against Tiamat's avatar (and not her aspect). So an epic-level Pathfinder book would be just the key to acquire the ruleset a DM would need, and the game material a group of epic-level characters can scan through to build that sort of character. Sometimes my players don't get the kind of character they imagine unless they can take it to epic-level (due to multiclassing).

Fortunately, my games start, always, at 1st-level so the chances of my players (who make multiple characters frequently) actually attaining a set of epic level characters is far off. But, I am hoping, when that day comes that Paizo can support that style of gameplay for us. The sooner the better.

Lyingbastard wrote:

The book's been out a whole 3 months. If you're getting into Epic Level issues already, slow down the experience progression and/or start everyone at level one. I've never had a character even make it to level 20, so Epic Level campaigns are a bit beyond my experience.

You do realize that some gamers who bought Pathfinder are not starting at first level but actually continuing their games right. Converting them over rather then starting over. So for some Epic levels are needed.

I do realize that. I also realize we can't release Pathfinder versions of every 3.5 book ever made all at once. We'll get to epic stuff eventually, but it's not gonna be quick.

But the whole point is that you can continue to use your current material, whatever it might be. And as James just pointed out, the Epic material for 3.0 did not come out for a couple years after 3.0 came out. You can't expect any company to come out with Epic Rules, that require a lot of testing and work to fit in with what they've done so far to come out too fast.+

I understand that. I am not the one Paizo has to convince. I have the core book and I am in a game. I never said now. I can wait. Unfortunatetly those on the fence with regards to PF will use it as a reason not to get the game and point it out as a disadvantage. Some want instant things their way right now and no amount of explanation or logic will satisfy them.

I can understand wanting more, but I personally want it done right, and so far Paizo has not disappointed. If folks want fast, use the old material until the new is available.

While their are a few things I do like about PF overall I like it and I am satisifed. As I can wait. Telling someone who wants to get into PF but is unsure that they should get the core book and use other 3.5 material to fill the gaps just is not a great selling point. As I said I am sold I knew that by buying PF that I would need to fill in some gaps in the rules. I am not happy about it I will be honest yet when I bough the PF core book I knew what I was getting into. Those who like 3.5 and are on the fence will need more convincing imo.

I do realize that. I also realize we can't release Pathfinder versions of every 3.5 book ever made all at once. We'll get to epic stuff eventually, but it's not gonna be quick.

I realize that. I respect the time and effort you put into PF. You must be doing something right if you have a 4E fan buying your books. I can wait and be patient. On a somewhat realted note will you ever do a PF equivalent of Savage species? Or Manual of the p[lanes?

Some want instant things their way right now and no amount of explanation or logic will satisfy them.

Exactly. There a lot of immature and melodramatic gamers out there (and on these boards). No matter what Paizo does, many will still find reason to complain and possibly not buy their products. If they can't be patient and wait until the time, manpower and money are there to make a quality book, then I don' see why Paizo should worry about "customers" like that.

Here, here!

James Jacobs wrote:

I do realize that. I also realize we can't release Pathfinder versions of every 3.5 book ever made all at once. We'll get to epic stuff eventually, but it's not gonna be quick.

I realize that. I respect the time and effort you put into PF. You must be doing something right if you have a 4E fan buying your books. I can wait and be patient. On a somewhat realted note will you ever do a PF equivalent of Savage species? Or Manual of the p[lanes?

Eventually, I suspect that we'll be doing versions of most of those books... but we also want to do NEW content that's not simply aping a 3rd edition book, of course. There'll probably be a pretty good mix between the two types of book in the end, I hope.

I work in retail and I can tell you promoting your product while promting 3.5 at the same time imo is a mistake. .

I don't think this is Paizo's philosophy, and I hope it never becomes so.

The OGL was an open source movement, based on the (correct) assertion that if there is cross-compatibility for mainstream RPGs, then all RPGs and players will benefit.

It would be a very sad day for me to see Paizo become adversarial to other 3.5 publishers or to the original material. Thankfully, they appear to have taken the opposite path.

Yup... Paizo fully embraces the open gaming movement. We want folks to buy our stuff, of course, but we also want folks to buy OTHER games as well. We often use material from other publishers, such as Green Ronin, Wizards of the Coast, Necromancer games, etc. That's the whole point of having the rules be open content. Seeing folks use 3.5 material with Pathfinder is really refreshing and delightful. I love it!

...and besides, soon 3.5 players will not have a choose but to wait for Paizo to take their time and release their books the right way. It's getting harder and harder to find the old 3.5 books out there. They're gone from most stores, they're gone from most websites and the people that have them are hording them, like myself.

Exactly. There a lot of immature and melodramatic gamers out there (and on these boards). No matter what Paizo does, many will still find reason to complain and possibly not buy their products. If they can't be patient and wait until the time, manpower and money are there to make a quality book, then I don' see why Paizo should worry about "customers" like that.

while I agree Paizo imo caanot just ignore any segment of the fanbase. 3.5 and to a certain extent Pathfinder is a niche market imo. Unlike 4E they do not have that large a pool of fans.

Yup... Paizo fully embraces the open gaming movement. We want folks to buy our stuff, of course, but we also want folks to buy OTHER games as well. We often use material from other publishers, such as Green Ronin, Wizards of the Coast, Necromancer games, etc. That's the whole point of having the rules be open content. Seeing folks use 3.5 material with Pathfinder is really refreshing and delightful. I love it!

I admire that. Except by doing so Pathfinder will always be seen as a clone of 3.5 and not Pathfinder on its own. So you cannot react negatively if some of the fanbase say that and some do. It is nice to be everybody friend in business but you have to think of your product first everyone else second. Not saying do not promote any other products just do not use those others products as a reason to not publish the rules needed in Pathfinder. Or keep the advertising of their products to a miniumum. Otherwise imo I think it will hurt sales of your product in the long run.

Except by doing so Pathfinder will always be seen as a clone of 3.5 and not Pathfinder on its own. So you cannot react negatively if some of the fanbase say that and some do. It is nice to be everybody friend in business but you have to think of your product first everyone else second. Not saying do not promote any other products just do not use those others products as a reason to not publish the rules needed in Pathfinder. Or keep the advertising of their products to a miniumum. Otherwise imo I think it will hurt sales of your product in the long run.

Why make a book of templates, for example, when there's nothing wrong with using a template here and there from Green Ronin's Advanced Player's Guide? Using open gaming content in an adventure or sourcebook isn't the same as telling someone to go out and buy that product. So far, and there are several years of history to refer back to, Paizo's M.O. has been to release whatever support content a product required. To date, that's been mostly setting information to support adventures, but if there's an adventure that calls for psionics or epic or savage species or Asian-themed classes, I'd bet more than I could afford to lose that Paizo will release the rules necessary for their customers to be able to use said adventure. All that said, I don't see how not releasing epic or psionic rules or whatever is hurting sales. You can't have bad sales of a book you haven't published, and it's not like people are going to go out and buy an alternative publication somewhere else because no one else is publishing these rules for PFRPG at the moment.

[edit]Additionally, Paizo is not just a publisher; they also have one of the internet's largest retail stores for gaming content. So even if someone else publishes a book that Paizo references, when their fans go to buy it, Paizo stands to make money on them as well. They don't do a daily store blog advertising other publishers' products out of the kindness of their hearts, though I imagine they're more likely to advertise and support products that also contribute to the Open Gaming movement.

while I agree Paizo imo caanot just ignore any segment of the fanbase. 3.5 and to a certain extent Pathfinder is a niche market imo. Unlike 4E they do not have that large a pool of fans.

The rational fans will realize that Paizo is doing the best they can and will meet their needs (Epic, Psionics, Savage Species, etc.) as their resources allow. The ones that freak out and declare Paizo lazy, selfish or money-grubbing because of their policies ... well, imo I don't see the loss there. Paizo does not need WotC numbers to be successful, they seem to be doing just fine.

I admire that. Except by doing so Pathfinder will always be seen as a clone of 3.5 and not Pathfinder on its own. So you cannot react negatively if some of the fanbase say that and some do.

What's wrong with being a clone? 3.5 was a successful edition. So successful that many people did not want to move on to another edition, they just wanted some tweaks. Paizo is catering to that demand and trying to rope in as many 3.5 gamers as as possible.

Callous Jack wrote:

Exactly. There a lot of immature and melodramatic gamers out there (and on these boards). No matter what Paizo does, many will still find reason to complain and possibly not buy their products. If they can't be patient and wait until the time, manpower and money are there to make a quality book, then I don' see why Paizo should worry about "customers" like that.

while I agree Paizo imo caanot just ignore any segment of the fanbase. 3.5 and to a certain extent Pathfinder is a niche market imo. Unlike 4E they do not have that large a pool of fans.

I'm not so sure about that seeing as my group and I can't find a Pathfinder core rule book to even buy. We pre-orded on Amazon and still haven't got the books. That didn't happen with 4E when we bought it. Now maybe 4E just had a lot more books for sale but from what I read Paizo first printing of the core seemed to sell out quite quickly. You don't sell all your books that fast with a limited fan base. I mean that's pretty impressive.

I think the minority would be those holding out for an Epic book. I mean I wouldn't mind one but it's not something that would hold me back. When it comes out it comes out and waiting 2-3 years for it is not unreasonable.

James Jacobs wrote:

Yup... Paizo fully embraces the open gaming movement. We want folks to buy our stuff, of course, but we also want folks to buy OTHER games as well. We often use material from other publishers, such as Green Ronin, Wizards of the Coast, Necromancer games, etc. That's the whole point of having the rules be open content. Seeing folks use 3.5 material with Pathfinder is really refreshing and delightful. I love it!

I admire that. Except by doing so Pathfinder will always be seen as a clone of 3.5 and not Pathfinder on its own. So you cannot react negatively if some of the fanbase say that and some do. It is nice to be everybody friend in business but you have to think of your product first everyone else second. Not saying do not promote any other products just do not use those others products as a reason to not publish the rules needed in Pathfinder. Or keep the advertising of their products to a miniumum. Otherwise imo I think it will hurt sales of your product in the long run.

Hmm I get your stance, I disagree but I understand your point of view. But Paizo has said their policy and what their plans are. So I only ask... why are you still debating it? It is starting to look like beating a dead horse for the sake of beating a dead horse. Which i fully admit can be fun, especially when they explode... but er anyways. Yeah.

Paizo does not need WotC numbers to be successful, they seem to be doing just fine.

This is a very true and good statement. Paizo have boosted thier fanbase massively with PFRPG, but their still smaller, and growing to accomodate a market, not trying to keep a hold on a huge and disparate one.

I'd rather paizo do it right when they can and don't drop everything else for a book that isn't wanted by everybody. It'd be good to have, but the majority prefer to play from low to the just under 12 level bracket, its a niche addition to the rules, and far from a requirement.

It is not a big thing and I do not want to fill up a thread talking about one of their upcoming books with another topic entirely. I am not doing so to be negative. Otherwise why buy Pathfinder in the first place. It would be counterprosuctive to do so. I want Pathfinder and by extension Paizo to be around for a long time.

Callous Jack wrote:

Exactly. There a lot of immature and melodramatic gamers out there (and on these boards). No matter what Paizo does, many will still find reason to complain and possibly not buy their products. If they can't be patient and wait until the time, manpower and money are there to make a quality book, then I don' see why Paizo should worry about "customers" like that.

while I agree Paizo imo caanot just ignore any segment of the fanbase. 3.5 and to a certain extent Pathfinder is a niche market imo. Unlike 4E they do not have that large a pool of fans.

Not to go off-topic, but I still have yet to see this super-sized 4E fan base everyone keeps talking about. Of the dozens of gamers I have met in the metropolitan area here in STL, a vast majority despise 4E and the various gaming shops I go to here either have no D&D games running because people gave up on WotC, have both a 4E and a 3.5e game running, or just non-4E D&D games running.

Meanwhile, the same folks stick with 3.5E or have signed onto Pathfinder with wild abandon. So I think it's safe to say Paizo has their fanbase as large as 4E (and I dare not say larger than 4E, only because I believe the ones that didn't go with Pathfinder just decided to stick with 3.5e or some earlier edition to do what WotC failed to do...which was remember their roots).

memorax wrote:

Callous Jack wrote:

Exactly. There a lot of immature and melodramatic gamers out there (and on these boards). No matter what Paizo does, many will still find reason to complain and possibly not buy their products. If they can't be patient and wait until the time, manpower and money are there to make a quality book, then I don' see why Paizo should worry about "customers" like that.

while I agree Paizo imo caanot just ignore any segment of the fanbase. 3.5 and to a certain extent Pathfinder is a niche market imo. Unlike 4E they do not have that large a pool of fans.

Not to go off-topic, but I still have yet to see this super-sized 4E fan base everyone keeps talking about. Of the dozens of gamers I have met in the metropolitan area here in STL, a vast majority despise 4E and the various gaming shops I go to here either have no D&D games running because people gave up on WotC, have both a 4E and a 3.5e game running, or just non-4E D&D games running.

Meanwhile, the same folks stick with 3.5E or have signed onto Pathfinder with wild abandon. So I think it's safe to say Paizo has their fanbase as large as 4E (and I dare not say larger than 4E, only because I believe the ones that didn't go with Pathfinder just decided to stick with 3.5e or some earlier edition to do what WotC failed to do...which was remember their roots).

I noticed same thing. I think the novelty of 4E has worn off a bit. I know I didn't mind the game. It was fun but after the first run through it was kind of boring the next game. Even with different characters the game felt exactly the same. Maybe new books would help but then I found Pathfinder and I know where my money is going now.

I don't know if it's roots thing or if it's just that Paizo has such great content that it just make me want to play Pathfinder. The Adventure Paths are great. The core rule refreshed things and the Advance players guide has me excited. I love the Chronicles and Companions and I'm just checking out the flip maps and map packs. A guy could go broke here quick. This what I found was missing WotC with 4E. Not enough content to keep my attention.