Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: GameMastery Guide (OGL)

Looks good!

Can anyone confirm that this will be part of the PFRPG subscription?

Of course, for this last suggestion, a living document that appears on the Paizo website would be fine too. :)

Yes, an online document would be preferable. Otherwise, it would out of date a month after being printed.

I'll chime in for Stronghold/building construction rules, they always come in useful.

Looks good!

Can anyone confirm that this will be part of the PFRPG subscription?

Yes! This and the GM Screen will follow the Bestiary as part of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game subscription.

I actually wrote that into the product description, but it looks like it accidentally landed on the cutting-room floor.

Its just that there's a lot painstaking detail in many campaign settings, and trying to wrap my head around this image of a little old man in a shop with a handful of +1 swords.. Well, it always makes me cringe. I'm an old grognard from 1st Edition, and "the Magic Item Shoppe" is a legacy where I say that the good old days weren't always great.

Are magic items for sale always salvage? Are they always custom works (and if so, shouldn't that make them inconvenient to acquire mid-adventure)? Does some mage just make Handy Haversacks to supplement his retirement?

I like the rules (in 3.5e anyway) of upgrading magic weapons. When our party barbarian came into town and wanted to go a step beyond his +1 greatsword, he didn't go to Ye Olde Magic Shoppe and buy a +2 greatsword, he went to the local wizardress that does that kind of work and paid her to upgrade his +1 greatsword to a +2 greatsword. She also sells magical weapons, but I would assume she actually only keeps a small selection of masterwork weapons in stock and enchants them when someone buys one. ("Oh, you like that one, do you? What kind of magic were you wanting to get on it?" "Oh. Come back in a week and it will be ready.") If the character doesn't like the look of the weapons she has, or wants a weapon she doesn't carry, he would have to provide the masterwork item to be enchanted (and perhaps pay a small service fee).

I'm actually running a pre-fab and it has a magic item black market dealer written into the plot, but I don't think any of the characters discovered him. (It's literally been months and months since my PCs were in town.) Both those two NPCs seem to make sense though. The magic item dealer had wizard levels so I just assume she does it how I described above, and the black market guy is trading in illicit goods secretly so he doesn't have to worry as much about getting robbed.

I once played in a guy's game and he and one of his regular players talked about how nobody ever robs the magic shops in his games because all his merchants are level 20 characters. That, to me, is precisely the wrong way to handle merchants and shops.

Erik Mona wrote:

I dunno about whore tables.

But it does have "NPC favour" tables. I guess they include sexual favours, yes?

Kill an ogre - lapdance by mayor's daughter (we all know mayors' daughters are always easy)
Defeat evil necromancer terrorising forest with undead bunny rabbits and other previously cute critters - threesome with two nymphs

And so on. We really need guidelines for that sort of thing.

We have treasure tables, we should know when a kiss is appropriate, and when a hero can expect to get some play. That's one of the reasons adventurers become adventurers, after all. It's all about money, alcohol and fooling around!

Is is that just me and the people I play with.

Depends on the character for the alcohol but money is usually a big plus. As for fooling around, I get to tabletop with my wife so my characters are always getting play (until I finally get around to making my half orc that is).

... damn I love this game.

Anyway, excited about this book and I'm rather glad it's a bit further down the line. Given the Adventure Paths, the Chronicles, and of course the Bestiary and RPG coming out soon, I'll need time to refuel my wallet.

I'd also like a summary chart that lists (up to the date of publication) all the Paizo adventures (modules and adventure paths) and what type they are (wilderness, dungeon crawl, city, mixed, etc.) and what levels they are for (again, for plug-and-play or one-shot purposes).

I would be sad to see pages dedicated to something that would be out of date before it hit the shelves, but this would be a great as a separate download.

DaveMage wrote:

I'd also like a summary chart that lists (up to the date of publication) all the Paizo adventures (modules and adventure paths) and what type they are (wilderness, dungeon crawl, city, mixed, etc.) and what levels they are for (again, for plug-and-play or one-shot purposes).

I would be sad to see pages dedicated to something that would be out of date before it hit the shelves, but this would be a great as a separate download.

Yes it does.

I started a thread about Appendix A.. from the Campaign setting where it has exactly that. No one seemed interested in commenting... until here and now. :)

Paizo needs a link off there page here... I think something like that would be an excellent selling point for their products.

DaveMage wrote:

I'd also like a summary chart that lists (up to the date of publication) all the Paizo adventures (modules and adventure paths) and what type they are (wilderness, dungeon crawl, city, mixed, etc.) and what levels they are for (again, for plug-and-play or one-shot purposes).

I would be sad to see pages dedicated to something that would be out of date before it hit the shelves, but this would be a great as a separate download.

I'm sure it could be worked into here

It could be part of the Wiki, but the idea is to both find sources for a sandbox game as well as increase the value of the Adventure Paths.

I've seen a lot of people on other boards post about how they don't like the "railroading" of Adventure Paths, so rather than have them ignore the line completely, if, say, there's a shrine to a particular evil goddess in Pathfiner [X], they could at least pick up that one adventure in the series to steal the adventure site for their home game.

Having a chart that tells them where to find such things would be a nice selling point, I would think.

Want a shrine to an evil god? - get Pathfiner [x].
Want a large dungeon? Pathfinder [x]
Want a mad druid encounter? Pathfinder [x]

etc...

It would also help those who may not be able to afford all six volumes in an adventure path (but could afford 1).

And of course, once they have one in their hands, they may want more.

I think we might hold off on that type of thing for a more player-focused book.

I love the old "Central Casting" books, though, which I think pulled this off best.

We still use "Central Casting" on occassion. It is worth it just for the wierd and funny possibilities that crop up.

I hope you can find room for gunpowder rules here if they are not
in the main rulebook.

I hope you can find room for gunpowder rules here if they are not in the main rulebook.

I demand conversion rules for Boot Hill and Gamma World!

(O.K., not really.)

One of the things I really liked in Green Ronin's Advanced GM's Guide was the chart of NPC skill modifiers. Some encounters with NPCs really don't require a full stat block, but at the same time, you may need to know what kind of skill check the person could make, and I found those charts kind of handy.

For anyone that hasn't seen them, it would give the skill check for something they weren't heavily trained in, moderately trained in, and had a specific focus in per level.

Appendex A could be kept off site... but I think having as a selling/marketing tool makes more sense. Have it on the Paizo page... or an obvious link to the wiki off paizo page.

How is it that I had not seen this yet? WTF?

I was waiting so long! How did I not get the memo? You going to blog this or what Paizo!?

How is it that I had not seen this yet? WTF?

I was waiting so long! How did I not get the memo? You going to blog this or what Paizo!?

It doesn't come out until February. I'm sure they'll get around to mentioning it more prominently at some point.

Masika wrote:

I wonder if this will be the art for the cover. It is the pic on the Gamemastery treasure chest.

No. It is a mock-up.

Bummer, it's an excellent piece that would have worked great for a GM's guide, I definitely prefer it over the final cover for the core book.

At any rate, sounds like a very useful book, I for one am pleased with what's been announced for the RPG line so far.

Erik Mona wrote:

Masika wrote:

I wonder if this will be the art for the cover. It is the pic on the Gamemastery treasure chest.

No. It is a mock-up.

Bummer, it's an excellent piece that would have worked great for a GM's guide, I definitely prefer it over the final cover for the core book.

At any rate, sounds like a very useful book, I for one am pleased with what's been announced for the RPG line so far.

Heh, funny how taste works, I thought it was a poor cover compared to the two core books. So glad it is a mock-up! :p

I dunno about whore tables...

What's not to love about whore tables?!?

(no pun intended)

I'd like to see "Ye Old Magic Shoppe" concepts addressed.

James has said that the players ability to shop and buy better gear is a basic assumption in any Paizo AP. That is, you have to let players sell magic gear and buy the stuff that they want and need. Or, tailor their treasure exactly.

But usually the dreaded Magic Item Shop makes me cringe because it shatters my own suspension of disbelief, even as the GM. I deal with it as best I can.

But rather complaining about it, Erik Mona, I'd love to see some insight on how to handle "shopping for magic gear" in a way that feels smart and looks good.

My suggestion.

• I too have never liked the Corner Magic Shop version of D&D and have NEVER used it in any game I have ever run. I have played in games that used it and, while I can certainly adapt to that style of play, it is not my preference.

  So I agree there NEEDS to be a section on how to compromise on this and make Magic Shops feel logical, 'realistic', rare, unique and wondrous and not ... Magic Item Walmarts.

• I also would like to second the idea of having some Unearthed Arcana type alternate rules in here ... some 'official' Pathfinder RPG alternate class abilities etc.

• One last thing that I would LOVE to see in this book would be rules for starting at first level as a multi class. Remember in 3.0, there was the option (I think it was called apprentice rules or something) that let you essentially play a lower powered multiclass character at 1st level and then, when you leveled up to 2nd level, you become a true, full power multi class. That rule was a great option and I never understood why it went away in 3.5.

  Please please PLEASE do something like this in this book!!!

Having said all that, I can't wait for this book and look forward to taking advantage of the RPG Subscription ... ahem ... whenever we get the Official Announcement about it that is ... ahem ...

• I too have never liked the Corner Magic Shop version of D&D and have NEVER used it in any game I have ever run. I have played in games that used it and, while I can certainly adapt to that style of play, it is not my preference.

  So I agree there NEEDS to be a section on how to compromise on this and make Magic Shops feel logical, 'realistic', rare, unique and wondrous and not ... Magic Item Walmarts.

• One last thing that I would LOVE to see in this book would be rules for starting at first level as a multi class. Remember in 3.0, there was the option (I think it was called apprentice rules or something) that let you essentially play a lower powered multiclass character at 1st level and then, when you leveled up to 2nd level, you become a true, full power multi class. That rule was a great option and I never understood why it went away in 3.5.

  Please please PLEASE do something like this in this book!!!

Having said all that, I can't wait for this book and look forward to taking advantage of the RPG Subscription ... ahem ... whenever we get the Official Announcement about it that is ... ahem ...

Re: Corner Magic Shop. You might want to look at Complete Gear over at Dream Scarred Press. For a couple of dollars, it is an alternate method where the Character "infuses" his items with magic instead of buying them. My guys will be using it in our next campaign.

Re: Multiclass at 1st level. Somewhere I have a PDF for Apprentice characters that is based on V3.5.

Re: RPG Subscription. Please oh please announce it. I need another title on my ID... lol

-- david
Papa.DRB

... ahem ... whenever we get the Official Announcement about it that is ... ahem ...

~ jeopardy music ~

I believe James Jacobs wrote a quite well-reasoned essay on the Magic Shop for Pathfinder #21 "The Jackal's Price".

Given what he says there, I can expect that there will be similarly well-reasoned advice in this GMing tome. Of course, the beauty of having a full-length volume like this is that maybe we will have enough advice to accommodate different all styles of play — Ye Olde Magick Shoppe included, though not mandatory.

I'm looking forward to better encounter-building guidelines, as this is plainly an art that this company has mastery over.

My only compliant why no new products for four months after release? I figured they want to get at least one more book for Chrismas at least.

well theydo have monthly things coming out.

At least I won't have to buy it until February of next year.

YES!

I'd love such a manual of advanced optional rules!
Things I'd love to see (apart the already announced ones):

-Handling of conflicts situations (disputes among players, chasings, etc)
-Rules for traits
-Rules for multiclass pcs that improve the existing ones
-Mass and naval combat. yes yes yes!
-Simple rules for npc. A npc creation system that differs from PC one.
-rules that improve interpretation, derived from narrative rpg systems.
-fate/action poits or similar

I'll edit this post with my further concerns...anyway...thanks a lot Paizo. You're trying to improve my gamemaster life every day. :)

I think these have been covered but
-rewards for players other than loot & exp
-how to swap in character abilites in a balanced way (ie fighter with a bit of sneak attack)

I would really love some sort of economics info other than magic items- ie trade, costs of a slave, cost of a poor/average/fine/luxurious dwelling in a town/city/metropolis, cost of living like a king etc.

I am happy to have rough and ready guidelines ie

to live like a wealthy merchant in a city costs 100gp per week. You must be in a city to get access to all the benefitsThis means you get fine food, decent wine with your meals, access to a manservant for running errands, a private room.
to live live a prince costs 500gp per week you get all of the above, sevearl fine sets of clothes, a couple of bodyguard warriors of 1/2 you level, you can have a lavish dinner party 3 times a week with up to a dozen guests...etc

The problems I want this info to solve is when my players say
a) that they have just returned from a brutal adventure and they want to have a lavish meal and live it up for a couple of weeks in a big city-(like the Grey Mouser or Conan would)
b) I tell a Cayden Cailean worshipper someone is enslaved in a city where it is legal and they ask how much it is to buy her out
c) The party is about to travel to a distant land and someone with some profession merchant skills says they want to know what sort of trade goods they can sell there-- and then when we get there how much profit they make
d) someone has a bit of cash and wants to buy or build a big house in Sandpoint

these are all mundane sorts of things but I find they invest the players in the world. I have had a player sell his magic shield becasue I told him there was a really good deal on spices that he could make a killing on when he got back home. You should have seen his face when he thought his pack mule was going to be taken by a wyvern

-how to swap in character abilites in a balanced way (ie fighter with a bit of sneak attack)

I wonder if anyone has tried to break down class abilities into feats.

Feat:
Cutthroat (Combat)
You are practiced in the arts of attacking an opponents weak spots.

Prerequisite: BAB +1

Benefit: You can use the Sneak Attack ability as if you were a Rogue of 1/2 your class level.

---

This could allow for things like Sneak Attacking Fighters or Tracking Clerics. Probably not something that should be applied to spellcasting and such, but... Hmmm, I should see what I can come up with after I see the book in August.

I wonder if anyone has tried to break down class abilities into feats.

I'm not sure about that but there are at least 3 third party products out there that attempt to do this from various point buy systems:

Buy the Numbers
Complete Control
Class Construction Kit

The first one is more complex but I think it's my favorite. The second is a very solid and reasonable approach that especially good for things like you're talking about. The third is published by a company that has a lot of really bad press over on the ENWorld boards so I'm leery to recommend it (but I do own it).

My only compliant why no new products for four months after release? I figured they want to get at least one more book for Chrismas at least.

We originally wanted this book out for Christmas, but when we realized that trying to do that might compromise the quality of the product, we decided for the February release so that we can make it the best that it can be. You know the old saying, "we will sell no wine before its time." Well, I have a similar corollary, "we will release no product until it is the best that we can make it."

-Lisa

Darkwolf wrote:

I wonder if anyone has tried to break down class abilities into feats.

I'm not sure about that but there are at least 3 third party products out there that attempt to do this from various point buy systems:

Buy the Numbers
Complete Control
Class Construction Kit

The first one is more complex but I think it's my favorite. The second is a very solid and reasonable approach that especially good for things like you're talking about. The third is published by a company that has a lot of really bad press over on the ENWorld boards so I'm leery to recommend it (but I do own it).

I'm familiar with the concept behind those products, but it's not quite what I'm thinking. Perhaps I can get some ideas from them though.

Werecorpse wrote:

-how to swap in character abilites in a balanced way (ie fighter with a bit of sneak attack)

I wonder if anyone has tried to break down class abilities into feats.

Feat:
Cutthroat (Combat)
You are practiced in the arts of attacking an opponents weak spots.

Prerequisite: BAB +1

Benefit: You can use the Sneak Attack ability as if you were a Rogue of 1/2 your class level.

---

This could allow for things like Sneak Attacking Fighters or Tracking Clerics. Probably not something that should be applied to spellcasting and such, but... Hmmm, I should see what I can come up with after I see the book in August.

How about alternative class features, replacing some of what fighter gets. This feat approach steps way too much on rogues toes with really small price to pay, you get half of rogue's signature ability by spending only one feat (fighter gets 20 in his career). I generally like alternative class features, like those in PHB 2(or PCCS). They are nice variations without the need of a whole new class. I'd like to see these in future supplements, but maybe in a more player oriented book than Gamemastery guide.

Darkwolf wrote:

Werecorpse wrote:

-how to swap in character abilites in a balanced way (ie fighter with a bit of sneak attack)

I wonder if anyone has tried to break down class abilities into feats.

Feat:
Cutthroat (Combat)
You are practiced in the arts of attacking an opponents weak spots.

Prerequisite: BAB +1

Benefit: You can use the Sneak Attack ability as if you were a Rogue of 1/2 your class level.

---

This could allow for things like Sneak Attacking Fighters or Tracking Clerics. Probably not something that should be applied to spellcasting and such, but... Hmmm, I should see what I can come up with after I see the book in August.

How about alternative class features, replacing some of what fighter gets. This feat approach steps way too much on rogues toes with really small price to pay, you get half of rogue's signature ability by spending only one feat (fighter gets 20 in his career). I generally like alternative class features, like those in PHB 2(or PCCS). They are nice variations without the need of a whole new class. I'd like to see these in future supplements, but maybe in a more player oriented book than Gamemastery guide.

Hmmm, you're right it is a bit strong. While I like alternate class features, I think they should be used for more 'unique' abilities.

What about:
Cutthroat (Combat)
You are practiced in the arts of attacking an opponents weak spots.

Prerequisite: BAB +1

Benefit: You can use the Sneak Attack ability as if you were a level 1 Rogue.

That only grants 1d6 and progressive feats could stack with pre-reqs BAB +4, +8, +12 and +16 capping at 5d6. Thus increasing the cost to 5 feats for half the Rogues skill.

memorax wrote:

My only compliant why no new products for four months after release? I figured they want to get at least one more book for Chrismas at least.

We originally wanted this book out for Christmas, but when we realized that trying to do that might compromise the quality of the product, we decided for the February release so that we can make it the best that it can be. You know the old saying, "we will sell no wine before its time." Well, I have a similar corollary, "we will release no product until it is the best that we can make it."

-Lisa

Hi Lisa!

I'd like to know... Are you planning to insert epic rules in this handbook?

Werecorpse wrote:

-how to swap in character abilites in a balanced way (ie fighter with a bit of sneak attack)

I wonder if anyone has tried to break down class abilities into feats.

Feat:
Cutthroat (Combat)
You are practiced in the arts of attacking an opponents weak spots.

Prerequisite: BAB +1

Benefit: You can use the Sneak Attack ability as if you were a Rogue of 1/2 your class level.

---

This could allow for things like Sneak Attacking Fighters or Tracking Clerics. Probably not something that should be applied to spellcasting and such, but... Hmmm, I should see what I can come up with after I see the book in August.

Did you ever look at the Unearthed Arcana generic classes?

I would love to see a book full of build-your-own-class principles like "you can swap out any ability from column A (sneak attack, fighter bonus feats, bard spellcasting, etc.)".

I have, but I think I'm looking at this differently than you guys are. I don't neccissarily want to change the classes as written, I'm thinking about a way to mix it up a little within the confines of the existing rules. These other ideas all change the rule to something else.

Of course if I'm a clear minority, and it seems I am, maybe there's no need to look at it as anything more than a houserule idea for my own campaign.

I have, but I think I'm looking at this differently than you guys are. I don't neccissarily want to change the classes as written, I'm thinking about a way to mix it up a little within the confines of the existing rules. These other ideas all change the rule to something else.

Of course if I'm a clear minority, and it seems I am, maybe there's no need to look at it as anything more than a houserule idea for my own campaign.

Darkwolf,

Darkwolf wrote:

I have, but I think I'm looking at this differently than you guys are. I don't neccissarily want to change the classes as written, I'm thinking about a way to mix it up a little within the confines of the existing rules. These other ideas all change the rule to something else.

Of course if I'm a clear minority, and it seems I am, maybe there's no need to look at it as anything more than a houserule idea for my own campaign.

Darkwolf,

You could use the generic class as ways of giving other classes the abilities as feats. That's how they've been set up. I think that's what Hogarth was suggesting.

Maybe, It's been awhile since I read the UA. I'll have a look when I get home. (The SRD is blocked content at work. :-/)

Anyway, /threadjack.

Darkwolf wrote:

I have, but I think I'm looking at this differently than you guys are. I don't neccissarily want to change the classes as written, I'm thinking about a way to mix it up a little within the confines of the existing rules. These other ideas all change the rule to something else.

Of course if I'm a clear minority, and it seems I am, maybe there's no need to look at it as anything more than a houserule idea for my own campaign.

Darkwolf,

You could use the generic class as ways of giving other classes the abilities as feats. That's how they've been set up. I think that's what Hogarth was suggesting.

I was suggesting using those feats (e.g. Improved Sneak Attack) as examples.

But I'm more interested in swapping out one class feature for another (e.g. the Unearthed Arcana sneak attack fighter), personally.

At least I won't have to buy it until February of next year.

Thanks! Now I have that Killers song in my head. ;)

Paul Watson wrote:

Darkwolf wrote:

I have, but I think I'm looking at this differently than you guys are. I don't neccissarily want to change the classes as written, I'm thinking about a way to mix it up a little within the confines of the existing rules. These other ideas all change the rule to something else.

Of course if I'm a clear minority, and it seems I am, maybe there's no need to look at it as anything more than a houserule idea for my own campaign.

Darkwolf,

You could use the generic class as ways of giving other classes the abilities as feats. That's how they've been set up. I think that's what Hogarth was suggesting.

Maybe, It's been awhile since I read the UA. I'll have a look when I get home. (The SRD is blocked content at work. :-/)

Anyway, /threadjack.

Not so threadjacky, if we're talking about what would be cool to see in this kind of book. Although this kind of stuff probably calls for a more player oriented book.

I mostly run Adventure paths and other ready-to-run adventures, but I still think this Gamemastery guide will be one of the most used book for me. Only sad thing is that I could use it NOW.

balakus01 wrote:

At least I won't have to buy it until February of next year.

Thanks! Now I have that Killers song in my head. ;)

Dude, it's not confidential. It's got potential!

I'd like to know... Are you planning to insert epic rules in this handbook?

No. Epic rules will require their own book. I wouldn't want to marginalize them by trying to squash them into this book. Also, this book is for GMs. It is meant to be a tool to make you a better GM. Epic rules would be for both players and GMs. So we would want to make it a book that would be accessible to both. This book is strictly geared towards the GM.

-Lisa

Cool! I'm really looking forward to this!

I would love to see trading rules in there, similar to the trading rules in Traveller. Rules that would allow you to play a caravan guard/merchant prince game, with charts and modifiers telling you what you might be able to buy and giving you a chance, based on your skills and the risks you're willing to take, to improve your profits...

Also, I'd like to reiterate the call for mass-combat rules. Something similar to Frank Mentzer's "Warmachine" for BECMI-D&D/Rules Cyclopedia. Those are the best mass-combat rules I've ever seen.

My only compliant why no new products for four months after release? I figured they want to get at least one more book for Chrismas at least.

We did, but it was just not tenable given our existing work schedule. We'll still be doing something like five products a month for the rest of the year.

Hey Eric, while you here, any chance of this???

From my earlier post:
"One last thing that I would LOVE to see in this book would be rules for starting at first level as a multi class. Remember in 3.0, there was the option (I think it was called apprentice rules or something) that let you essentially play a lower powered multiclass character at 1st level and then, when you leveled up to 2nd level, you become a true, full power multi class. That rule was a great option and I never understood why it went away in 3.5.

Please please PLEASE do something like this in this book!!! "

Thanks!

Masika wrote:

I wonder if this will be the art for the cover. It is the pic on the Gamemastery treasure chest.

No. It is a mock-up.

That picture would make a great poster...