This book is going to show us how Erastil, Gozreh, Abadar, and Iomedae are percieved and worshipped by the native cultures, right? Man, I really want to see how Iomedae is handled. I hadn't even thought of her as even having a presense of note amongst the Mwangi cultures, owing to her relative late arrival and how concentrated her faith is up in Avistan.
"Relative" being the operative word. :) She's been a goddess for over 800 years. It's like saying "Christianity is relatively new to the New World"... except Europeans brought Christianity to Central and South America just over 500 years ago. If you compare how well-established Christianity is there in just 500 years, it's not hard to see how Iomedae's influence may be strong in Sargava. Heck, Sargava was founded in 4138, which means Iomedae was already a goddess for over 300 years when the first Avistani colonists (who, seeing as they were from Cheliax, which at the time was very Arodenite/Iomedaen, probably worshiped Iomedae) arrived.
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This book is going to show us how Erastil, Gozreh, Abadar, and Iomedae are percieved and worshipped by the native cultures, right? Man, I really want to see how Iomedae is handled. I hadn't even thought of her as even having a presense of note amongst the Mwangi cultures, owing to her relative late arrival and how concentrated her faith is up in Avistan."Relative" being the operative word. :) She's been a goddess for over 800 years. It's like saying "Christianity is relatively new to the New World"... except Europeans brought Christianity to Central and South America just over 500 years ago. If you compare how well-established Christianity is there in just 500 years, it's not hard to see how Iomedae's influence may be strong in Sargava. Heck, Sargava was founded in 4138, which means Iomedae was already a goddess for over 300 years when the first Avistani colonists (who, seeing as they were from Cheliax, which at the time was very Arodenite/Iomedaen, probably worshiped Iomedae) arrived.
Your grasp of how Religion should function within a Fantasy world still amazes me after all these years. Of course it helps that I have never disagreed with your interpretations.
Hee hee! :)
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This book is going to show us how Erastil, Gozreh, Abadar, and Iomedae are percieved and worshipped by the native cultures, right? Man, I really want to see how Iomedae is handled. I hadn't even thought of her as even having a presense of note amongst the Mwangi cultures, owing to her relative late arrival and how concentrated her faith is up in Avistan."Relative" being the operative word. :) She's been a goddess for over 800 years. It's like saying "Christianity is relatively new to the New World"... except Europeans brought Christianity to Central and South America just over 500 years ago. If you compare how well-established Christianity is there in just 500 years, it's not hard to see how Iomedae's influence may be strong in Sargava. Heck, Sargava was founded in 4138, which means Iomedae was already a goddess for over 300 years when the first Avistani colonists (who, seeing as they were from Cheliax, which at the time was very Arodenite/Iomedaen, probably worshiped Iomedae) arrived.
Ah, got my internal timeline crossed up again. I keep thinking of Iomedae as being much younger than what she really is.
STILL, very curious about the Sargavan take on her!
Also, any mokèlé-mbèmbés? :D
just got the pdf and it looks good. I just hope that I will have the chance to read it on the train.
Order History still lists it as Shipping. But the GMG has shipped as of Tuesday so I'm not going to grumble too much. If I only have the GMG to read on the train to AC that will be fine. I'm planning on converting the info from here and the Chronicles book to the work I'm doing for my version of Spelljammer.
Good call Bellona, yes it can be considered a fair bit like Sasserine with even more possibilities. Merging the two could obviously work.
Sargava to me (since I've run a game there for some time now) is a lot like if the Spanish had not quite conquered the Aztecs, and all of their fears of the jungle and its inhabitants were real.
In my game I take Sargava forward a bit in years, the colony still holds out against Mzali and all other native resistance. The pirates protect (extort?) it from the Chelaxians. It is assisted by a number of allied Tian daimyos recently established by a Tian exodus from the civil wars. Yes, the Sargava I run has swashbucklers, pirates, conquistador cavalry, natives, powerful Mwangi clerics, warlocks and ur-priests, a slew of monsters unique to the region AND samurai and ninjas. The tech is up to gunpowder (pistols, muskets and blunderbuss) but the sword and buckler are still extremely common. Cannon are very rare, never really took off in a departure from earth history.
If you want to put a lot of pressure, survival mechanics, traps and curses on a group of players, run a game centred in Sargava and exploring outwards.
Hmmm ... could this be the Golarion version of Sasserine? :)
At just a glance, it looks as though the start of the Savage Tide adventure path could easily fit this location.
- Yes, I had the same thought...
Good call Bellona, yes it can be considered a fair bit like Sasserine with even more possibilities. Merging the two could obviously work.
Sargava to me (since I've run a game there for some time now) is a lot like if the Spanish had not quite conquered the Aztecs, and all of their fears of the jungle and its inhabitants were real.
In my game I take Sargava forward a bit in years, the colony still holds out against Mzali and all other native resistance. The pirates protect (extort?) it from the Chelaxians. It is assisted by a number of allied Tian daimyos recently established by a Tian exodus from the civil wars. Yes, the Sargava I run has swashbucklers, pirates, conquistador cavalry, natives, powerful Mwangi clerics, warlocks and ur-priests, a slew of monsters unique to the region AND samurai and ninjas. The tech is up to gunpowder (pistols, muskets and blunderbuss) but the sword and buckler are still extremely common. Cannon are very rare, never really took off in a departure from earth history.
If you want to put a lot of pressure, survival mechanics, traps and curses on a group of players, run a game centred in Sargava and exploring outwards.
OMG you did it..you managed to set up a game with Pirates, Dinosaurs and Ninja
In the Faith chapter under Aroden we have the following...
Although the worship of Iomedae has replaced
the church of Aroden elsewhere,
many colonials still cling to their
old religion and believe that
Aroden will one day return
to announce that this has all
been a test of their faith.
This dichotomy in faith has
led to the “old” and “new” churches
of Aroden in Sargava. New church
clerics believe that Aroden is gone
forever, and they have forgone the
elaborate raiment of their worship
in favor of lighter, less suffocating
clothing. Old church clerics believe
that they need to return to the original
ways and have gone back to wearing the
formal attire—though only during ritual
observances (which both churches have
pragmatically moved to evening hours).
This implies that some Clerics of Aroden, whether "old" or "new" still exist. I assume they no longer receive spells/blessings and are therefore somewhat useless to their followers?
Oh, the clerics of Aroden is an old story in Golarion. Several were featured throughout the years, most notably the high priest of Aroden in Taldor, and ex-Arodenite church features prominently in Beyond the Vault of Souls. I'm pretty sure there was an Arodenite in Tower of Last Baron, too.
Yes, there is mention of them in various releases, but they're not really "clerics" any more, at least not useful ones, now they can't receive spells.
Creative Director
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Yup; while there are still a few holdout "clerics" of Aroden, they don't get spells. Those who follow Aroden are more properly called philosophers—their beliefs are treated like those who follow things like the Whispering Way or Diabolism or the like. The vast majority of spellcasting clerics who once worshiped Aroden switched to the worship of Iomedae.
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Creative Director
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The vast majority of spellcasting clerics who once worshiped Aroden switched to the worship of Iomedae.The church could probably still function at least at a basic level through the use of Adepts and / or Bards.
It could, I suppose... but it doesn't really. It's been over a 100 years of no clerics, and Iomedae has pretty much taken up the vacancy.
I assume they no longer receive spells/blessings and are therefore somewhat useless to their followers?
Yeah. Just like real-world priests, who are also unable to cast any divine magic. People still put a lot of weight to their words for some reason. ;-P
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Creative Director
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Yeah. Just like real-world priests, who are also unable to cast any divine magic. People still put a lot of weight to their words for some reason. ;-P
I assume they no longer receive spells/blessings and are therefore somewhat useless to their followers?
Comparing Golarion faiths to real-world faiths in that way is meaningless, since in the real world, priests can't resurrect the dead, heal wounds with magic, or blast undead with positive energy.
More to the point, part of Golarion's theme is that Aroden is dead and his church is more or less gone. I don't want to set up a functional, healthy church of Aroden any more than I want to introduce a transcontinental railway or common airship travel or talking cats on every street corner or intelligent plant-men as a core race. All of those ideas are interesting and could make for some cool game play elements and world flavor... but none of them are right for Golarion.
You can define a world as much by what ISN'T in it as you can by what IS in it.
And one of the key things that defines the Inner Sea region is that the favored god of the most populous race (humanity) is gone and his church is dead, thus forcing humanity to seek new faiths and forge ahead into a scary world of unknowns. Removing Aroden from the game is one of many ways we make the Inner Sea region a tumultuous region ripe for adventuring.
Hopefully we'll learn more about Walkena the Child God. I noticed some of his followers in the NPC Guide, and would like to know more about the faith.If you are interested in learning of the greatness of Walkena, I'd be happy to do a home visit. You can also come to our prayer meetings. With Walkena in your life, the path to greater happiness will be clear. Do the proverbs not say that the little Child will lead us?
*hands over colorful folded papers written in Polyglot*
We have brochures!
Aaaah. The witnesses. Sources of untold hours of amusement.
"We're Walkena's Witnesses"
"Witnesses, eh? What do they accuse him of?"
I also like to scare them (especially if they show up early in the morning on the Weekend, and I mistake their knock for a courier carrying an important message/parcel): When I hear the knock at several bells before sunrise on a Starday, I call to them in a voice sweet as honey. "I will be with you shortly! Just a little patience, my friend!" I use ghost sounds to evoke disturbing sounds like whispers not quite loud enough to understand. I'll get my special-made glowing eye lenses (they also provide darkvision and you can turn of the glowing - it's not as if I bought glowing eye lenses just as a gag. Not just...) and put them on, and also get some of that non-perishable pea soup a gnome acquaintance once gave me a whole barrel of and put it all over my face and mouth, and a good swallow into the mouth which I let run out of my mouth down my chin. To top it all off, I get that bloody (literally) old rag of a coat I once took off a mad cultist's corpse (not mad enough..) and put it on. Then I sneak to the door, rip it open and in the most deep, demonic voice I can manage shout: "I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR YOU! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!
It's simply amazing how fast those guys can run. As if Abraxas himself was behind them.... :)
More to the point, part of Golarion's theme is that Aroden is dead and his church is more or less gone.
INFIDEL!
*SMITE!!!*
I said: *SMITE!!!*
Must have forgotten to recharge it. Consider yourself lucky, mortal! But persist in your heresy and see what you get yourself into.
Comparing Golarion faiths to real-world faiths in that way is meaningless, since in the real world, priests can't resurrect the dead, heal wounds with magic, or blast undead with positive energy.
I wouldn't go as far as saying that it's meaningless. Sure, if you live in a world where clerics generally *CAN* do such things, it's harder to get followers if you can't, but how religion works in our world is great to look into and explain how Aroden still has a fellowship!
Even if you say he's dead and gone, you can inspire hope by saying that if enough people believe strongly enough, he will be resurrected. And you don't have to go that far. You can say that he's not dead, but merely gone. Call it a Big Test of Faith. Claim it was part of the Ineffable Plan all along, that he never intended to come back at the time he said. That, instead, he decided to first test the faith and fidelity of his flock - after all, everyone will follow a strong god who can dole out many gifts. A real believer, though, will not turn his back upon the Deity if his faith is true. "I know that my Redeemer lives" (Job 19:25)
a transcontinental railway or common airship travel
Giant cannons, big turtles or cute dragons are still in, though, right? Right?
And one of the key things that defines the Inner Sea region is that the favored god of the most populous race (humanity) is gone and his church is dead, thus forcing humanity to seek new faiths and forge ahead into a scary world of unknowns. Removing Aroden from the game is one of many ways we make the Inner Sea region a tumultuous region ripe for adventuring.
I think the story of Aroden was a stroke of genius, actually. Especially the part where it wasn't dropped on the running, living campaign world.
In addition to the great tumult it caused, it explains why prophecy isn't an accurate way of information gathering and why those divination spells usually have a chance of going awry.
I think the remnant faith to be one of the things that makes it so interesting.
Yup; while there are still a few holdout "clerics" of Aroden, they don't get spells. Those who follow Aroden are more properly called philosophers—their beliefs are treated like those who follow things like the Whispering Way or Diabolism or the like. The vast majority of spellcasting clerics who once worshiped Aroden switched to the worship of Iomedae.
So does their ability to channel stop too?
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Creative Director
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Yup; while there are still a few holdout "clerics" of Aroden, they don't get spells. Those who follow Aroden are more properly called philosophers—their beliefs are treated like those who follow things like the Whispering Way or Diabolism or the like. The vast majority of spellcasting clerics who once worshiped Aroden switched to the worship of Iomedae.So does their ability to channel stop too?
Yup; Gorbacz is correct. Clerics of Aroden follow the rules for ex-clerics. Of course, it's been 100 years, so the number of actual REAL ex-clerics of Aroden left is incredibly small. Close to zero, I would dare say.
Characters who decided to take cleric levels from the start and worship Aroden are no more likely to gain spells than if they worship Razmir or Merisiel or a giant slug.
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Yup; while there are still a few holdout "clerics" of Aroden, they don't get spells. Those who follow Aroden are more properly called philosophers—their beliefs are treated like those who follow things like the Whispering Way or Diabolism or the like. The vast majority of spellcasting clerics who once worshiped Aroden switched to the worship of Iomedae.So does their ability to channel stop too?Yup; Gorbacz is correct. Clerics of Aroden follow the rules for ex-clerics. Of course, it's been 100 years, so the number of actual REAL ex-clerics of Aroden left is incredibly small. Close to zero, I would dare say.
Characters who decided to take cleric levels from the start and worship Aroden are no more likely to gain spells than if they worship Razmir or Merisiel or a giant slug.
Well, in some earlier incarnatins of the game (2e FR ???) I recall at some point there being an explanation that 1st and 2nd level spells came from the cleric's own faith power, 3rd to 5th from angels/servants, and beyond from the big boss himself... or something like it.
Now, it does not NEED to be like this on Golarion, but for a homebrew, you could rule that way, and surmise that A. is not dead but just imprisoned. Maybe he is held caged in some great cosmic device to prevent the Worldwound from opening further, and is "as good as dead", and the quest of his remaining servants to free him could cause an even greater disaster ???
Pennies for your thoughts
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Also curious up to some point what became of his servants (aside from those who have joined Iomedae). Surely not all of his planetars / inevitable / what have you are offed and some must still lurk around ?
strange they are not talking ... maybe they can't ? Or maybe they are AFRAID ? Or maybe SOMEONE silenced them ?
Characters who decided to take cleric levels from the start and worship Aroden are no more likely to gain spells than if they worship Razmir or Merisiel or a giant slug.
Blasphemer !
Kneel before me !
Well, in some earlier incarnatins of the game (2e FR ???) I recall at some point there being an explanation that 1st and 2nd level spells came from the cleric's own faith power, 3rd to 5th from angels/servants, and beyond from the big boss himself... or something like it.Now, it does not NEED to be like this on Golarion
I'd say that it definitely isn't like that on Golarion, or in Pathfinder in general, or even 3e. Like a lot of things from Earlier Editions, I consider this to be overthinking the matter, adding needless complication.
Plus, it can't be FR, at least not more recent FR (i.e. after the Time of Troubles) since any divine magic requires divine patronage since then. (And not worshipping a deity will really get you into trouble).
Now, it does not NEED to be like this on Golarion, but for a homebrew, you could rule that way, and surmise that A. is not dead but just imprisoned. Maybe he is held caged in some great cosmic device to prevent the Worldwound from opening further, and is "as good as dead", and the quest of his remaining servants to free him could cause an even greater disaster ???Pennies for your thoughts
What do you mean, "you could rule"? I'm not dead. I'm not imprisoned, either. What am I, a Rough Beast? Or part of a divine soap opera where misunderstandings will get you killed but doing the most horrible deeds will get you house arrest?
I just took some time off, is all. I'll be back in no time (it may just seem lifetimes to you brief mortals. That's because you don't try enough. I was human once, too. Didn't stop me. And it's not as if you cannot do it, too - a drunkard ascended for My sake!)
That's from the new city stat block format in the Gamemaster Guide. If you don't have the GMG, feel free to disregard that data.
Just got around to reading the Sargava companion today. I must say IMHO, this was the best Companion book to an AP to date. The flavor of the setting is excellent. Good job to all involved.
Question about the interior artwork. There are two city pictures in the "Settlements of Sargava" section (p12 and p17). Are they reversed?
I ask because the pic on p12 looks like it depicts Kalabuto according to Kalabuto's description, yet is is next to the Eleder writeup. And the Eleder city description resembles the art on p17 next to the Kalabuto write-up.
Just curious :)
Just got around to reading the Sargava companion today. I must say IMHO, this was the best Companion book to an AP to date. The flavor of the setting is excellent. Good job to all involved.
Question about the interior artwork. There are two city pictures in the "Settlements of Sargava" section (p12 and p17). Are they reversed?
I ask because the pic on p12 looks like it depicts Kalabuto according to Kalabuto's description, yet is is next to the Eleder writeup. And the Eleder city description resembles the art on p17 next to the Kalabuto write-up.
Just curious :)
Yeah, Eleder is show on page 17, and Kalabuto is on page 12. For the chapter openers, we don't generally worry about trying to make them related to the first thing in the chapter, but since the only other illo was Eleder, it probably would have made sense to switch those two. Sorry for any confusion!
Thanks. Love the Kalabuto pic.
The vast majority of spellcasting clerics who once worshiped Aroden switched to the worship of Iomedae.The church could probably still function at least at a basic level through the use of Adepts and / or Bards.
I have an idea of my own about the Demon Queen Sifkesh (Lord of Heretics) giving her power to some Arodenites on the sly, with the intention of increasing her own power, making non-demonic religion look bad, and 'for the evulz'. Hey, she IS a Demon Lord, after all.
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I have an idea of my own about the Demon Queen Sifkesh (Lord of Heretics) giving her power to some Arodenites on the sly, with the intention of increasing her own power, making non-demonic religion look bad, and 'for the evulz'. Hey, she IS a Demon Lord, after all.The vast majority of spellcasting clerics who once worshiped Aroden switched to the worship of Iomedae.The church could probably still function at least at a basic level through the use of Adepts and / or Bards.
THAT would make the basis for an awesome campaign! I can see some PCs getting into a lot of trouble when they confront the local "cleric of Aroden" revivalist and his duped worshippers with their accusations of demonic powers.
Also, keep in mind that Sargava is a player-oriented book and thus doesn't have secret info that player's shouldn't know, like what monsters and such live in old ruins. Heart of the Jungle is a GM-oriented book, and thus would have that sort of secret info.
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Yup; Gorbacz is correct. Clerics of Aroden follow the rules for ex-clerics. Of course, it's been 100 years, so the number of actual REAL ex-clerics of Aroden left is incredibly small. Close to zero, I would dare say.
Characters who decided to take cleric levels from the start and worship Aroden are no more likely to gain spells than if they worship Razmir or Merisiel or a giant slug.
A question from a noob: why is Baron Utilius a cleric of Aroden then? And why did he decide to become an ex-cleric of a dead god instead of being a paladin of Aroden/Iomedae or an oracle (with a mystery having been part of Aroden's portfolio)?
Please do not see this as a critique, I'm just curious why it is as it is.
Yours,
A.S.
First this is a Player's Guide.
Second in Sargava being a Cleric of Aroden is more prestigious than being a cleric of Iomedae. As the leader of the nation, the Baron needs to cater to those of the old Faith (ie Aroden), since they control most of the wealth and thus wield significant power.
I think you might prefer the supplement for the Mwangi Expanse.
The whole point of the Sargava supplement is the Chelish colonization and its effects on the natives.
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Contributor
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DSumner, I recommend checking out Pathfinder Chronicles: Heart of the Jungle. ^_^
You may find it more to your liking, as this one is very... colonial.