Critical threat range question

Let's say my character is using a longsword (crit 19-20 x2). For some reason, he can only hit the enemy on a nat 20. What happens if he rolls a 19?

Do I threaten a critical, and, if I roll a 20, I crit?

OR

Do I not threaten, because a 19 wouldn't hit?

even though a 19 would be a critical threat only a natural 20 is an automatic hit. so if you miss on a 19 with 19-20 crit range you still miss.
this becomes much more common when you get a keen 18-20 weapon which becomes a 15-20x2 threat range.

even though a 19 would be a critical threat only a natural 20 is an automatic hit. so if you miss on a 19 with 19-20 crit range you still miss

Thanks!

If you need a proper rules citation, by the by:

Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. For example:

19–20/×2: The weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 19 or 20 (instead of just 20) and deals double damage on a critical hit.

18–20/×2: The weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 18, 19, or 20 (instead of just 20) and deals double damage on a critical hit.

Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.

Most relevant in bold, just quoted the rest for context.

Can someone help with example 3 and 4 and 5? I understand example 1 and 2....i think lol:

Bucky the Orc AC = 17

Fighter Jim has threat range of 15-20 ×2
He has BAB +1, str mod +1 (+2 to hit).

Example 1
Fighter Jim rolls a natural 20. He threatens a critical. His check roll is 16 +2 = 18. Crit is confirmed and he rolls dmg twice.

Example 2
Fighter jim rolls natural 20. He threatens a critical. His check roll is 14 + 2 = 16. Crit is not confirmed. But since it was a natural 20, jim still hits and rolls damage dice once.

Example 3
Jim rolls an 18 + 2 = 20. What happens when a) his check roll is another 18 + 2 = 20? Or b) his check roll is 15 + 2 = 17? Is a roll of 20 , using the bonus to get there an auto hit?

Example 4
Jim rolls a 17 +2 = 19.
What happens if his check is 17 or under?

Example 5
Jim rolls a 15 to 17 (either natural or with his bonus) ? Does he miss entirely? Or does he still score a threat and roll to check?

Thanks for the help

Example 1: He rolled a nat 20, auto hits. His confirmation roll is high enough to confirm, he hit confirms the critical hit.

Example 2: He rolled a nat 20, auto hits. He fails to roll high enough to confirm (less than 17), the crit isn't confirmed but he does still do regular hit damage.

Example 3: Jim rolled high enough to hit, so he does. He also rolled high enough to confirm (at least 17), this is basically example 1 except he didn't auto hit because he didn't roll a nat 20. If he instead rolls a 16 (or lower) on the confirmation he fails to confirm (which is basically example 2).

Example 4: See the explanation under example 3.

Example 5: Jim rolls less than a 17 total for his attack roll, he simply misses.

If you don't roll high enough to hit on your normal attack roll, you don't get any kind of confirmation roll and you simply miss.

For Jim (lucky Jim), any natural roll in his threat range of 15-20, is a hit and a potential critical against Bucky. This is because Jim will add 2 to his 15 and get Bucky's AC of 17.

Let clarify something just because it may not have been clear.

When you roll your attack rolls you add your d20 roll + str + bab + other modifiers as appropriate, that is what I'm talking about when I say your roll. I mean that total value.

When I say nat 20 I'm only referring to what you roll on the d20.

Let clarify something just because it may not have been clear.

When you roll your attack rolls you add your d20 roll + str + bab + other modifiers as appropriate, that is what I'm talking about when I say your roll. I mean that total value.

When I say nat 20 I'm only referring to what you roll on the d20.

Slightly confused.

So if your threat range is 19-20 and you get a +2 on attack rolls and you roll a 17 +2=19, is that a threat?

no the dice number before adding anything(the natural number) is what you threaten criticals with. the die itself must be inside the critical range before adding anything from bab, str, dex etc.
this is only for the first roll. as long as the confirmation roll hits its a crit, you do not need to roll the dice itself as another threat range. so add your str or dex+bab then it see if you hit and if u do its a crit

no the dice number before adding anything(the natural number) is what you threaten criticals with. the die itself must be inside the critical range before adding anything from bab, str, dex etc.

this is only for the first roll. as long as the confirmation roll hits its a crit, you do not need to roll the dice itself as another threat range. so add your str or dex+bab then it see if you hit and if u do its a crit

Right i get that. But only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

vhok wrote:

no the dice number before adding anything(the natural number) is what you threaten criticals with. the die itself must be inside the critical range before adding anything from bab, str, dex etc.

this is only for the first roll. as long as the confirmation roll hits its a crit, you do not need to roll the dice itself as another threat range. so add your str or dex+bab then it see if you hit and if u do its a crit

Right i get that. But only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

So if i roll a natural 19 and the creature has an AC of 20, do i not add BAB, STR, etc. to my to hit roll first and then roll again to confirm critical?

You do!

The easiest way I can think of to help you think of it is:

first lets see if it hits! for all circumstances except a natural 20 you have to hit to do anything.

second lets see if it is threatening a critical did it roll within your critical threat range? if yes you are threatening a critical.

third lets see if you confirm the critical roll to hit again if you confirm with a to hit on the second roll it is a critical hit and you multiply the damage.

For any attack roll, add the number on the dice to BAB, stat and any other bonuses.
If this value is less than the target's AC you miss (unless the roll is a natural 20); and that's the end of the attack.

If the total is greater than or equal to the AC or it's there's a 20 on the dice, you've hit; compare the number on the dice to the weapon's threat range.
If the number on the dice is outside the threat range, it's not a critical threat, apply normal damage.

If the number on the dice is in the threat range, it's a threat and you need to roll again; add the second roll to the same bonuses as the first roll (and any extra bonuses to confirm from feats).
If the second total is less than the target's AC (and it's not a 20 on the dice) it's not a critical, apply normal damage.

If the total of the second roll is greater than or equal to the AC or the dice is showing 20, you've confirmed the critical, apply critical damage and any other effects.

Newmainium wrote:

vhok wrote:

no the dice number before adding anything(the natural number) is what you threaten criticals with. the die itself must be inside the critical range before adding anything from bab, str, dex etc.

this is only for the first roll. as long as the confirmation roll hits its a crit, you do not need to roll the dice itself as another threat range. so add your str or dex+bab then it see if you hit and if u do its a crit

Right i get that. But only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

So if i roll a natural 19 and the creature has an AC of 20, do i not add BAB, STR, etc. to my to hit roll first and then roll again to confirm critical?

You do!

So sequence would go:

Step 1 )check if a natural number in my threat range was rolled ( if 20 skip to step 3)

Step 2) add BAB, STR, etc. to see if total number meets or beats AC (if yes, go to step 3, if not then you miss entirely)

Step 3) roll again to confrim critical (at this point if you roll a natural 20 again its an auto crit), adding all bonuses and modifiers and if it meets or beats AC then a crit is scored. If not then a regular hit is scored.

Is that correct?

Their we go like mine but more detailed^

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Newmainium wrote:

vhok wrote:

no the dice number before adding anything(the natural number) is what you threaten criticals with. the die itself must be inside the critical range before adding anything from bab, str, dex etc.

this is only for the first roll. as long as the confirmation roll hits its a crit, you do not need to roll the dice itself as another threat range. so add your str or dex+bab then it see if you hit and if u do its a crit

Right i get that. But only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

So if i roll a natural 19 and the creature has an AC of 20, do i not add BAB, STR, etc. to my to hit roll first and then roll again to confirm critical?

You do!

So sequence would go:

Step 1 )check if a natural number in my threat range was rolled ( if 20 skip to step 3)

Step 2) add BAB, STR, etc. to see if total number meets or beats AC (if yes, go to step 3, if not then you miss entirely)

Step 3) roll again to confrim critical (at this point if you roll a natural 20 again its an auto crit), adding all bonuses and modifiers and if it meets or beats AC then a crit is scored. If not then a regular hit is scored.

Is that correct?

Spot on!

Newmainium, I would recommend you apply your logic in a different order, since the order you are laying out doesn't account for a regular hit at your step 1.

Step 1) add BAB, STR, etc. to see if total number meets or beats AC (or die is a natural 20). If not, attack = miss.
Step 2) check if a number in the threat range was rolled on the natural die (and the monster is not immune to critical hits). If not, attack = normal; roll regular damage.
Step 3) roll again to confirm critical (at this point if you roll a natural 20 again, it's an auto crit), adding all bonuses and modifiers (as at Step 1, but also potentially the feat Critical Focus +4 and/or Cunning weapon property bonus here). If so, critical hit; roll the weapon damage the number of times your multiplier says, multiply all regular damage additions, and add precision damage (e.g. sneak attack or precise strike damage), once, last; apply any specials due to successful critical as well (feat Blinding Critical, weapon property Shocking Burst, etc.). If not, attack = normal; roll regular damage.