Cleric of Sarenrae help.

I would appreciate some advice for a build.

The game will be the Legacy of Fire AP.

The class is Cleric of Sarenrae, 20 point buy, level 1. GM says CRB and APG only, but might be able to fiddle.

Other than that, suggestions are very welcome.

So far I am thinking:

Human (for feat and because Clerics have awful skill points)

STR: 11
DEX: 10
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 17
CHA: 14

Domains: Heroism (Sarenrae gets it from Glory), loads of buffs and it gives a massive boost to Diplomacy.

Fire. I know the AP is called Legacy of Fire, and there will doubtless be fire-immune monsters, but not immediately. The 1st Domain power is a cheap blast I can spam, the 8th protects against fire from the tougher monsters. Plus, I'll probably use the Glory/Heroism spells by then.

Is this sensible or will it get me and the party killed? 20 points isn't enough for good spells and fighting, so I'll let the party Paladin do the melee.

Any other methods?

Also, any trait suggestions? I'm not having Finding Haleen.

For feats I am thinking Selective Channel, Augment Summoning, Scribe Scroll...

Ok, first things first... what do you see your role as? Your character is definitely not combatant - I'm guessing healing/channeling? With a Paladin in the party you'll likely be back up diplomat rather than diplomat. You could and should buff him with touch of glory then aid another.

Second, I personally would ask the other party members on what they are playing and see if you need to plug any secondary roles. Some people prefer to make their characters in isolation on concept, and that's cool too.

At that point then you need to build to that. Heroism is a good domain - stick with that. Fire? Well, that blast spell? You will miss more than not - your BAB and mediocre dex pretty much means you'll miss more than hit, especially without precise shot when your team mates are in combat.

I am assuming you don't want munchikin level optimisation, that said, head over to the advice forum for the Optimisers Guides to Clerics and have a read. It may stimulate some ideas'.

Your stat array is sort of scattered - not sure what to make of it. Once you lock in what sort of cleric you see yourself as it will become easier.

The stat array is what I could get out of 20 points.

Need Cha for channeling heals.
Need Wis for casting.
Need 12 Int because of terrible skills.
Need above 12 Con for HP and Fort.
Do not want to dump Str entirely as she won't be able to wear her armour or carry stuff. I have only read the Player's Guide, but it's clear we will spend time wandering the desert. She'll have to be able to do that without falling over.

It will be a 4 person party. Probably a Paladin, some Arcane type, A N Other.

Actually, I do want optimization. I have read various guides, those ones on Zenith's site. A lot of things assume being able to mix and match domains, huge point buy, lots of free magic items. I would love to optimize, but I have constraints. 20 points, Cleric of Sarenrae, level 1 is fixed, everything else is mutable. Thank you for the word on the Fire Domain, for instance, I'll never get the Dex to use that blast well so maybe it gets discarded.

I would prefer to be a caster, but if it won't work, then I'll take whatever.

Well if you are not front line drop the con to 10 and pump Dex to work with your fire. Same with int. come up with a concept might help.

I would go with something like this:

Human
STR: 11 (1 cost)
DEX: 14 (5)
CON: 12 (2)
INT: 12 (2)
WIS: 16 (5)
CHA: 14 (5)

This gives you +2 OB with fire blast. you can get to wis 18 by time you can cast 8th level spells.

I generally avoid odd numbers as they don't give a bonus. I keep them only when i have left over or really want to spend the attribute upgrade point on it at level 4

You can optimise with 20 pt builds - items are indeed fluid but builds are lasting... I'd still read the guides but that said? Lets look at THE iconic priestess of Sarenrae.

Kyra.

STATISTICS
Level 1 Cleric of Sarenrae
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 17, Cha 14
Base Atk +0; CMB +2; CMD 12
Feats Selective Channeling, Toughness
Skills Diplomacy +6, Heal +7, Knowledge (religion) +4
Languages Common, Kelish
SQ aura
Gear chain shirt, scimitar, sling with 10 bullets, backpack, bedroll, spell component pouch, sunrods (2), trail rations (2), waterskin, wooden holy symbol, 8 gp

Such a cleric gives you some combat, some channelling (which is feat intensive AND over rated) and some diplomacy.

You can move fav. Class bonus from HP to skill for an additional skill and still be viable.
You can drop Cha to 13 to move Dex to 12 if you wish too. Or 13 charisma, take Int to 10 and take your wis to 18 if you really want to focus on casting.

Channeling is intensive - do you REALLY want to be a specialist there? If you will be using channeling for post combat healing and blasting ideas (see sun domain as a pair for glory) then charisma 10 means you can move that 14 to con, the 12 con to dex and you are a very good combatant. Selective channeling becomes heavy armour proficiency and lo behold you are a combat support cleric.

I think I will do that.

Cha to 10 still allows 3 channels a day, and I will only use them for post combat healing. It doesn't matter about Diplomacy, the Glory/Heroism domain gives enough boost.

STR: 14 DEX: 13 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 17 CHA: 10

It only gives 3 skills/level as a Human, but that should be enough. Not super happy about it, but sacrifices have to be made.

Keeping Glory/Heroism domain. Less need to blast now as she can hit with her sword and her saves are better, so... 'Good' Domain? Or Agathion which I think is slightly better, more defensive.

Might even get Power Attack at this rate!

Sun pairs well with Glory for undead blasting... also, use your favoured class point in Skill for your 4th skill. Possibly Survival or Knowledge: Nature or even Performance: Dance!

Level 1 feat choices for clerics are pretty limited unless you enjoy those skill centric feats. If going Combative cleric try toughness, its a solid choice.

IF you are thinking of tanking, and its a good tactic for someone to be the Anvil against the Paladins hammer, then heavy armour will be a good one too. Otherwise, if you have 13 Dex? Dodge is a possibility.

Power attack will need to wait until level 3 sadly enough.

Trait choices can be a good thing to boost your characters effectiveness now. If the DM is just using the traits from the players guide and the APG then think of something that will boost your game. I need to go back to the drawing board with traits.

See if he will also allow the Inner Sea Primer and Inner Sea World Guide.

If you want to drop Str to 12 and Con to 12 you could try boosting your Dex to 15 with the intent to raise it to 16 at 4th.

You've a decent fort save as a cleric - this boosts your reflex save and gives you good hitting power... though it only becomes an option for you at level 3 so levels 1 and 2 you'll struggle a bit.

This is not the most optimal of choices but it is flavourful and comes from the Inner Sea World Guide.

Dervish Dance (Combat)

You have learned to turn your speed into power, even with a heavier blade.

Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.

Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.

As a stat gamble (betting that by level 5 you'll have a +2 Wis headband or iounstone) you could sit at 16 wis, popping that extra into making Dex 16.

it kind of seems like you can't decide between a caster cleric or a melee cleric so you're trying to split the difference.... right now, to me, it doesn't seem to be coming together.

i've never looked through the guides, but i assume that each either focus on combat or casting, but not both... there is a way to optimize for the middle ground, but you'd almost have to switch gods (gorum works really well for it). basically, you focus on wis with just 13-14 str (for power attack) and take channel smite and guided hand as early as possible. now Wis determines spell DCs and attack bonus! the downside is that your hits do less damage (this is where gorum shines- can choose negative channel to maximize channel smite, and can take destruction and strength|ferocity domains for extra mini-smites, all of which will up damage; serenrae doesn't offer and of those options).

barring that- pick one or the other and focus a little tighter if you want to optimize.

To OP: you say multiple times that you want human and a modest intelligence to boost your bad skills. since this seems to be something u don't like, have u considered an inquisitor? that said if ur focused on a cleric that's ok we just need some tweeks.

Personally if ur a cleric of this goddess i think u would be wise to go dervish. for two feats ur a good backup melee fighter. You will not be a true tank but u can realistically have a AC of 20 without having to use heavy armor feat. As a bonus of this, u will of course have to go more DEX which opens up more initiative, better reflex.

U could make an argument that glory is being wasted since ur channeling is subpar. a DC 12 isn't that much to worry about. glory is good without that extra DC but honestly id either dump charisma or boost it. A cleric can fight, cast, or channel but can only do 2 of em. u seem to want casting though.

Thank you all.

I will concentrate on Dex, Wis and to a lesser extent, Con only and drop everything else to 10. Go with the thematic Dervish Dancer stuff to be okay with her Scimitar.

This higher Dex also allows her to use the Fire domain. Keeping Glory/Heroism because even though the boost to undead channel won't do much good, it has other good domain powers and good spells. And it keeps Diplomacy good.

STR: 10 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 10 WIS: 19 CHA: 10

Or

STR: 10 DEX: 16 CON: 13 INT: 10 WIS: 17 CHA: 10

Undecided. Each has benefits.

I have a Sarenrae Cleric in a tabletop Kingmaker (btw, i'm a reformed thief/killer, I love the redeemed evildoer angle)and I went with healing/fire. Along with the wizard, having a 2nd player with fireball cannot be overstated. Plus the 50% increase to all cure spells lets you go thru fewer spells to get the party back to full strength, not for nothing.

I believe the second array is the better one for u.

I believe the second array is the better one for u.

Thank you. It is a bit stronger at fighting, and there will be plenty of opportunities to boost that wisdom.

If you're going Dervish Dance, you really, really don't need Strength - especially since your dex will probably be high enough to warrant light armor. (You can give your bedroll and whatnot to the strong guys to carry, too.) I would use this stat array:

STR 8
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 18 (with racial bonus)
CHA 10

If you think you're going to be attacking more often than you'll be casting spells with saves, you can put the racial bonus into Dex instead; depends on your party.

Remember that with the domain spells, you DON'T get to spam them - if they're not on your list, you get at most the one domain slot; you can't prepare them in regular slots.

As for feats - well, you'll need Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance. Some other favorites:

• Improved Initiative - very nice for getting stuff like Communal Resist Energy off before the party splits up
  
• Scribe Scroll - very nice for a Cleric; you can prepare scrolls of stuff like Delay Poison, and keep your spell slots for offense.
  
• Skill Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning - excellent if your front line needs help. Beware, though, summoning involves a lot of paperwork and arithmetic.
  
• Toughness - extra HP are always good.
  
• Craft Wondrous Items/Craft Magic Arms & Armor - your party will love you forever.

I wouldn't worry about Selective Channel or Combat Casting - the former has a stiff Cha requirement (and you shouldn't really be channeling in combat anyway), and for any case in which you'd use the latter, you'll probably want to be attacking instead.

Traits - Reactionary for +2 initiative is always good. You can use the other to shore up a poor save if you want.

Thank you, Reynard.

The problem with Str 8 is that light carrying capacity is only 26lb. A chain shirt is 25lb alone, and a scimitar is 4lb. Until she can afford Mithral, she will be at 20' speed. That is for a lot of levels. She may as well be clanking around in scale mail.

STR: 10 DEX: 16 CON: 10 INT: 10 WIS: 17 CHA: 10 is 19 points. That is 33lb carrying capacity for light. Chain shirt 25lb. scimitar 4lb. Hot weather outfit (the lightest clothing possible) 4lb. Holy Symbol 1lb. = 34lb, above even Str 10 light carrying capacity.

I am considering putting the spare point into Str (for Str 11) so she gets 38lb and can carry another item like a mug or a dagger or an empty backpack.

Str 8 looks great if she was higher level but she isn't and she won't be for a while. She would have to survive till level three with a negative damage modifier. That could be fatal to the group. Remember, until level 3 she has to use a light (for Finesse) simple weapon. That is 2 levels of using a *looks up table* sickle is the best weapon there. At least it looks like a Scimitar for Sarenrae's sake. In any case, I can't really afford -1 damage on 1d6.

The 17 Wis should not be a problem. She will make it 18 at 4 anyway. It is a hefty points investment for 20 point buy. I really do like optimization but she has to survive level 1 and 2 first. It isn't ideal I know.

Not taking Reactionary because me and GM have been working on backstory and she was not bullied as a child. Besides, it's a bit overused I fear.

I do like the feat choices, they are the ones I intend to go for. Apparently there is not much shopping in Legacy of Fire, so she will grab a Craft or two at higher levels. Won't have many or any related skill ranks, but que sera sera.

I'm not sure on the order though.

2 feats at 1st level. one has to be Weapon Finesse. It think I might have to take Scribe Scroll here for practical adventuring reasons.
3rd: Dervish Dance
5th: Probably Spell Focus: Conjuration, going to have to bite the bullet on it at some point.
7th: Augment Summoning
9th: Craft Something depending on party makeup.
11th: Imp Initiative, I'll probably be falling behind a lot by now.
13th: Some Metamagic finally?

If you pick up Augment Summoning, it's worth it to get Superior Summoning. It sucks bigtime to try to summon multiple things off of a lower list... and get 1. With Superior Summoning, you can get up to 4 in one go! And let me tell you, my wizard's favorite combination of spells at high levels was SMVIII for multiple Tyrannosaurs, Animal Growth one, and quickened Haste. Good times.

If you go dervish dance with a str of 10 you do not qualify for power attack. This means you just won't be effective in combat without many buffs. Also being dex based means righteous might doesn't do much for you. If you can't take guided hand I wouldn't bother with melee at all, you will find that you will effect the battle more, much more with a spell than with a sword, especially if you focus on wis rather than dex. With a +6 to dex belt you will have 22 dex, that sounds good, but you are 3/4 bab without power attack, and you are probably one handing it even if you had power attack. What this means is that you are quickly going to be far outstripped by the martial characters. You are going to feel you have wasted money feats and stats.

If you can get guided hand, great (it's in UC, but you may be able to convince your gm to let you use it. Your stats sould then be:

str 14 dex 14 con 12 int 10 wis 18 cha 8 (if you can't stand cha 8 go dex 13) switch con and dex if you want.

The str gives you power attack and damage (3 per hit if two handed which you should) Now boost wis as much as you can for the extra to hit, and of course casting. Channel smite and guided hand at lvl 1, then power attack at lvl 3. This will give you a better to hit than dervish, and better damage that just gets better with time.

When you have the money give your weapon the conductive property to channel your little fire blasts on successful hits.

If you really want scribe scroll get it at lvl 5, then get the summoning feats, then get quicken spell. If you want to qualify for spell perfection you will need to sacrifice somewhere and that will be up to you.

If you can't get guided hand I reccomend going in an entirely different direction. Look up the evangelist archetype. It's really cool for a support/caster cleric.

Good luck.

Thank you, Hogeyhead. Very considered advice.

Sadly, the DM has informed my the game is from the CRB and APG only, which means almost all the ideas are out, but I shall refer to this thread for next time.

CRB and APG means no Dervish Dance, no Guided Hand (yet Channel Smite is there, rather uselessly).

I think I might have to make a caster Cleric as she won't have access to any good fighting feats. Kyra Iconic is looking more and more tempting simply because my options are so limited. Hogeyhead's array looks okay now, because she can get Power Attack that way at least. Can't dump Cha past 10.

Ha. Thanks anyway.

Ah, that does limit your options. In that case, I would just go with a nice generalist array:

STR 14
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 17
CHA 12

Feats:
1 Spell Focus: Conjuration (or Improved Initiative)
1 Scribe Scroll
3 Augment Summoning (or Combat Casting)
5 Craft Wondrous Item
7 Superior Summoning (or Craft Magic Arms & Armor)
9 Improved Initiative (or a Metamagic)
11 Persistent Spell

Take medium armor, pick up a shield & scimitar. At low levels you'll have enough AC and HP to be a front-liner - you can whack low-AC mooks and Aid Another/flank with your pals on tougher things. You'll also have enough strength to make touch attacks pretty well without the need for Weapon Finesse. As a human with 12 int, you'll be able to keep 3 or 4 skills maxed and afford ranks in a few others; your Cha and skills make you a passable diplomat if you so choose. I wouldn't bother with Power Attack - leave the damage-dealing to the muscleheads, and focus on hitting enemies and supporting allies.

As you level up, you can step towards the back and focus on casting and summoning. By high levels, your high-powered, multiple-creature summons will fill up the battlefield, and your Persistent debuffs will take out tough enemies. You will be the backbone of the party - whether they need more muscle, protection/restoration from nasty enemy abilities, a utility spell to achieve a key objective, or the elimination of a key target via magic, you'll be able to help. That's the beauty of the Cleric - they are one of the best generalists in the game, and a godsend (literally) for a small party.

I will do that.

It is dead easy and logical to progress for a start, and she won't die in a fight instantly, but at higher levels the good Wis score and sensible feat choice mean that she'll still be excellent at her classic roles - casting loads of effective cleric spells, crafting scrolls and items. There is nothing wrong with it and while it may not win any optimization Olympics, she is still a 9th level caster with good feats who can hit ok with her sword, at least at first. Perfectly playable, she will be fun.

This restriction also means our sources of Traits are limited, of course. They have to be intrinsically tied to our backstory. Serious GM. Good, but serious.

The GM wants us to note what is in each hand at all times. I immediately smelled a rat.

I have therefore taken the Birthmark trait so she can go round with a sword and shield while keeping her birthmark holy symbol hidden on her skin and not having to wave it about. It also gives +2 against charm and compulsion.

The other trait is because why would she ever have needed to keep her symbol hidden? Legacy of Fire campaign trait, 'Earning your freedom' which means she has been a slave! Of course her preaching has to have been kept secret. And now she can unleash Sarenrae's holy light on slavers and evil doers. Luckily, the trait gives +1 to a save (I am picking Reflex because she has good Fort and Will).

Ta dah. The backstory writes itself.

Nice work.

Just one thing on Reynard's array, don't bother getting augment summoning at lvl 3, wait for 5 and get craft wondrous first. The reason being is that summons just aren't that good till lvl 5 when they last 5 rounds. 3 rounds just isn't worth it.

Nice one, Hogeyhead.

I hadn't thought it through before, but Clerics are really suited to Craft Wondrous or Craft Arms and Armour because they have all of the necessary spells on a given day. It's a little quirk, but it is really useful.

I am looking forward to level 5 and Summon Monster III for Good characters (like Sarenrae Clerics) simply because of the Lantern Archon sentry laser gun. Pew pew pew!

See, and that's where Superior Summoning is really good. There's nothing like a herd of Lantern Archons pinging them and curing you guys to annoy the bejeezus out of an opponent. Hell, summon enough and you can get them to Voltron it up. If your DM ever loosens up on source material, you may want to look at the Sacred Summons feat.

BTW, make sure you grab a weapon cord, so you can drop your sword to cast and pick it up as a swift action.