WotC halts PDF sales


Website Feedback

1,201 to 1,250 of 1,655 << first < prev | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | next > last >>

I can assure you of one thing: WoC can track the number of illegetimate download pretty easily. At least from those who don't know how to protect themselve when using P2P.
There is a lot of company that specialized in tracking illegal download... WoC could have hired one of them. Those company can tell you the filename, the date, the hour and more importantly the IP adress of the culprit... wich can be track down to the internet provider up to the name of the culprit... What they do with this information is another matter...


Dragonchess Player wrote:
unless (...) they want to kill all support for older editions so that 4e is "the only game in town."

Their actions strongly suggest that, what with the sneak attack against the old PDFs so people find themselves unable to buy them (ignoring the victims who were unable to get what they paid for for a minute) and the GSL forcing you to abandon OGL forever if you sign - even after they have terminated the GSL!

I cannot think of another reason for this behaviour.

Of course, it makes sense from a business standpoint: Suing your competition out of business is easier than winning over customers with better products and better corporate identity.

Carnivorous_Bean wrote:
I wonder whether the speed of the removal wasn't prompted by a bit of indignation on their part

Yeah, I can see that tomorrow: Hello Eva (my goddaughter). I was going to give you a nice big chocolate egg for Easter, but some feral kids stole the one I bought for myself so you can't have yours now.

I bet even the kid will see that it doesn't make sense.

Sovereign Court

Lisa Stevens wrote:

...This kind of tech could allow the PDFs to be shared via the DDI in a way that would make them almost as useful as the PDF version while again putting up a barrier to piracy.

-Lisa

Thanks, but no thanks Lisa. The whole DDI thing, assuming that means d&d insider thingy, equates to a money pit imo.

I am continually amazed at the rediculous wall that company choses to place between imagination and revenue.

Liberty's Edge

This is why I love the Paizo and KQ subscription systems. I hate buying stuff that has no inherent value, as in, stuff I can't resell if I need money badly. With those subs, I get something of real value to me (a physical book) and something of real convenience (it's a PITA to drag half my bookshelf to the FLGS to play), all for the same price.

Now, occasionally, I'll have to buy something in PDF format, as not everything is offered in print (ToH 3.5 is a good example), or is out of print (1e and 2e AD&D stuff, but no more, it seems), but given a choice, I'll buy the print copy if possible (if I can find AD&D on eBay I'll get it there, the Hit Pointe and Noble Knight are a tad pricey for a lot of old school stuff), or had added value (Hungry Little Monsters, the fact the money goes to a good cause has value to me). But at least I OWN the PDF when I buy it, even if it has no value beyond its utility.

Now, if WotC adds access to the old school stuff as part of their DDI, I'm stuck out. I'm not paying a monthly fee for materials that disappear when I cannot or will not pay for access after a while. So, now, I'm stuck scouring eBay and used bins at the FLGS to fill the gaps in my AD&D collection. I'm not going to pay for "access" to something, I'm only going to pay if I get to own it.

Eh, maybe I'm just not hip to the modern market. Now, where did I put that bottle of Geritol?

Liberty's Edge

Lisa Stevens wrote:

Vic mentioned to me that there was a company at a recent trade show who was touting a way to display PDFs on your screen and searching through them without the ability to copy text or download the file. This kind of tech could allow the PDFs to be shared via the DDI in a way that would make them almost as useful as the PDF version while again putting up a barrier to piracy. Of course, once your sub expired, so would your access...

-Lisa

If there's one thing I know about hackers, it's that if they really want to do something, they'll figure out how to do it two days ago. And given WotC's digital track record to date, them claiming to be able to make something "pirate-proof" will just have the same result as waving a red cape in front of a bull. Ole!

Scarab Sages

You're not alone Derek. I've been making similar points myself today over on ENworld.


GentleGiant wrote:


Oh yes, let's, once again, only focus on the US market...

Yeah, they do that. But don't be upset, because that makes you an ingrate punk.

Nameless wrote:
How can they track illegal downloads? It seems like it would be incredibly difficult to get an accruate number.

You're supposed to pay Pirate Tax. Aren't you paying your Pirate Tax when you download illegal stuff? Shame on you!

Disenchanter wrote:


EDIT:: Thinking on this further... I would guess two months. WotC basically challenged the pirates by stating they are going to find a format that stops them.

You don't challenge those computer rebel types unless you're prepared for Project Mayhem. There's enough of them out there that don't do this for monetary gain or some sort of online infamy, but because they're not supposed to.

Sornyth the Dark wrote:
if it is an independent file, some pirate will find away to duplicate it and spread it all over the interwebs.

Doesn't have to be an independent file even. For example, you can find Super NES games online. Those were sold as cartridges.

Unless they use alient technology to somehow protect their reader equipment and the media that carries the virtual books, people will find a way to convert them to a readable format that can be distributed over the net.

And for that, read what I wrote about rebels above.

Dark Archive

Perhaps by pirate-proof they mean not available to everyone.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
KaeYoss wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

In case anyone cares here is an interview from the WoTC president. He is not saying a lot, and there are a few obvious lies to those that are not wearing blinders.

click me

That story, I don't like as much.

And enworld wasn't really helpful in clearing things up. I know that If I had run the interview, I wouldn't have dropped the topic until I got an answer. And I'm pretty sure I woudln't have dropped the topic until I not only got an answer, but a satisfying one at that.

Bunch of weaselese.

Do you think this might have contributed to you not getting the interview gig at all?


Zaister wrote:
So that might even mean no more D&D at all in Germany? The German license was terminated and no successor company is in sight, and now WotC wants to ban the sale of English books to foreign markets? Not that I'm really all that keen on buying 4E books, but I can't see what they might be trying to accomplish there...

As far as I'm concerned, there never really has been a German D&D. The translations have always been jokes (and bad ones).

On a related note - I do hope Ulisses will do better with Pathfinder.


Paul Watson wrote:


Do you think this might have contributed to you not getting the interview gig at all?

Quite a lot. They don't someone who asks inconvenient questions and expects answers. They probably pre-approve the questions or something.


After reading the ICv2 "interview" it answered a lot of questions, one of which in the way things were said that WotC will pretty much no longer use PDF as the medium in which to deliver its electronic products. Also the mention that D&D is available through DDI with the Compendium and Character builder, pretty must puts the death knell in all older edition products, as WotC obviously wants to see them gone, as they are NOT a part of either the Compendium or Character Builder, and are obviously viewed as no longer D&D games.

They wanted to splinter the market with the GSL bit, and a new edition, but at least they still had support from 3.x and older editions, but now I think they just bit the hand that feds them so to speak, as those not playing solely 4th edition, or playing it, will no longer be showing an support to WotC with any purchases RPG related.

I also like how WotC sees fit via Greg to defend the entire hobby, at the expense of its hobbyists wherein removing all older editions of its products form any market.

Paizo give me some more good stuff coming up with pathfinder please!


Lisa Stevens wrote:

Vic mentioned to me that there was a company at a recent trade show who was touting a way to display PDFs on your screen and searching through them without the ability to copy text or download the file. This kind of tech could allow the PDFs to be shared via the DDI in a way that would make them almost as useful as the PDF version while again putting up a barrier to piracy. Of course, once your sub expired, so would your access...

-Lisa

Ick.

Dark Archive

Since WoC dos not sell PDF anymore there won`t be any pirated "Arcane Power" Books, right?
Just have a look at google and you will see the success of this venture.

Way to go Wizards!


Poland is part of both the Geneva and Hague Conventions. The Hague Convention governs civil prosecutions, Poland signed on in 1984, so yes, this person can be prosecuted in the US. It is time consuming to get service of process over the defendant but it can be done.


People have been ripping and scanning books (technical, RPG, you name it) for years. Pulling PDF sales will not lead to any incremental revenue for WotC.

Here's what copyright paranoid companies don't seem to understand.

99.9999999999999999999999999% of the people who own the 10 pirated copies (from the 10-to-1 estimate) WERE NOT GOING TO BUY THE PRODUCT ANYWAY - IN PRINT OR PDF.

All they are doing is shutting off the (albeit small) revenue stream from legitimate buyers. It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.


Lisa Stevens wrote:

You know that and I know that, but Amazon at least has been touting the security of the Kindle in regards to preventing piracy to the publishing industry. And the barrier to piracy IS higher, so that might be enough.

Vic mentioned to me that there was a company at a recent trade show who was touting a way to display PDFs on your screen and searching through them without the ability to copy text or download the file. This kind of tech could allow the PDFs to be shared via the DDI in a way that would make them almost as useful as the PDF version while again putting up a barrier to piracy. Of course, once your sub expired, so would your access...

-Lisa

Hmmmm. Food for thought.

Since I am not in the publishing business, I wasn't aware of Amazon selling it's security. That would explain a lot.

And if there is a way to "view" PDFs that weren't in your possession, that makes me view the statement of "we won't be selling the digital media directly" (paraphrased) in a new light. I originally took that as "we are looking to keep other vendors as partners," but it ends up being a true statement for "we are going to rent/lease you the media."

This frustrates me. Not the WotC decision per se, but that corporations (as a whole) don't grasp the kind of world we live in. I call it The Era of the Hacker. And I don't mean the "evil people" that try to break other peoples stuff... But the people who alter their own stuff.
The people who unlock their iPhone.
The people who figure out how to load Windows onto a Mac - without a VM.
The people who figure out how to put Linux on the iPod, and play Doom on it.
The people who figure out how to get their Playstation 1 games to run on their PSPs.

The world is full of creative people, and as the saying goes "Information wants to be free."


J JOES wrote:
Also the mention that D&D is available through DDI with the Compendium and Character builder, pretty must puts the death knell in all older edition products, as WotC obviously wants to see them gone, as they are NOT a part of either the Compendium or Character Builder, and are obviously viewed as no longer D&D games.

You clearly missed the other interview where they said that they were planning on implementing a way to access out-of-print material as well. But sure, jump to baseless conclusions!


nedleeds wrote:
99.9999999999999999999999999% of the people who own the 10 pirated copies (from the 10-to-1 estimate) WERE NOT GOING TO BUY THE PRODUCT ANYWAY - IN PRINT OR PDF.

No, I'm pretty sure that's not true.

Sovereign Court

baldwin the merciful wrote:

Poland is part of both the Geneva and Hague Conventions. The Hague Convention governs civil prosecutions, Poland signed on in 1984, so yes, this person can be prosecuted in the US. It is time consuming to get service of process over the defendant but it can be done.

I know its possible, but there are hoops that have to be jumped through. For instance in Canada, you have to pass a real and substantial connection test before a court will accept jurisdiction. The defendant being in another country, with the infringement happening in that other country (if he distributed from poland) is a pretty big hurdle to get over.

I think in the states you have a minimum contact requirement.


Scott Betts wrote:
nedleeds wrote:
99.9999999999999999999999999% of the people who own the 10 pirated copies (from the 10-to-1 estimate) WERE NOT GOING TO BUY THE PRODUCT ANYWAY - IN PRINT OR PDF.
No, I'm pretty sure that's not true.

You're right. It is really 98%. :-P


houstonderek wrote:
Jason Beardsley wrote:
Snorter wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

I shall make a desperate attempt to derail this discussion before little kittens get hurt.

I shall post a link to a picture of Unicorn Chaser:

UNICORN CHASER

Whoah!

When did Sebastian become a dad?

<hands out cigars>

Speaking of, anyone seen him around lately?
I see him in chat from time to time, last time maybe two days ago? He's alive and well and sacrificing small babies to the California Bar Association ;)

I believe he only gave up the messageboards for Lent, so he should be back and posting shortly....

KaeYoss:
Umm, was there anyone I needed to know about apart from Franky and Howard? I know the pet Shoggoth in the garden made some glomphhing noises the other night, and there was a tommy gun and a couple of bowlers hats with the owners' names on the linings spat out on the grass the next morning. Of course if my pet Shoggoth weren't so fastidious about what he eats, I wouldn't even have a aclue that these two gentlemen had called; there may have been others it didn't leave me traces of.


Robert Hawkshaw wrote:
baldwin the merciful wrote:

Poland is part of both the Geneva and Hague Conventions. The Hague Convention governs civil prosecutions, Poland signed on in 1984, so yes, this person can be prosecuted in the US. It is time consuming to get service of process over the defendant but it can be done.

I know its possible, but there are hoops that have to be jumped through. For instance in Canada, you have to pass a real and substantial connection test before a court will accept jurisdiction. The defendant being in another country, with the infringement happening in that other country (if he distributed from poland) is a pretty big hurdle to get over.

I think in the states you have a minimum contact requirement.

You are right there are hoops to jump through especially since there are State Depts concerned. As far as the nexus is concerned the commerce clause takes care of that, so subject matter jurisdiction should not be an issue, once personal jurisdiction is obtained.

Of course, IMHO, this is symbolic in nature. WOWC can obtain a huge verdict against the gentleman, in Poland or wherever, then convert the verdict to a judgment but its virtually worthless, unless they can figure out a way to collect the judgment.


Holy moley! This is the longest thread I have ever seen I believe. I haven't checked in a few days because after reading 14 pages I was kind of burned out on the subject.............Now I click on it to find we are on page count 23 or something of that nature, it will take me forever to catch up, Maybe I wont even try.


Too smurfin' long.


Lisa Stevens wrote:
Disenchanter wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:

For your edification, here is another interview with Greg Leeds on retailer website icV2. The most interesting part is where he says that theories that WotC is going to sell PDFs themselves are "incorrect." Makes me wonder whether they are going to sell the books through Kindle and Sony's e-reader, like their novels are being sold right now.

-Lisa

That's good speculation, but since the main DRM formats I can find for the Kindle and e-reader have already been cracked, I can't imagine they think this will prevent piracy.

You know that and I know that, but Amazon at least has been touting the security of the Kindle in regards to preventing piracy to the publishing industry. And the barrier to piracy IS higher, so that might be enough.

Vic mentioned to me that there was a company at a recent trade show who was touting a way to display PDFs on your screen and searching through them without the ability to copy text or download the file. This kind of tech could allow the PDFs to be shared via the DDI in a way that would make them almost as useful as the PDF version while again putting up a barrier to piracy. Of course, once your sub expired, so would your access...

-Lisa

Leaving aside the obvious point of scanning books, which has already been mentioned numerous times, there's another way to (to a certain degree at least) get a hold of even those subscription-based, über-protected pdfs.

You load up the pdfs through your subscription and then start hitting the PrintScreen button... voilá, instant high dpi material ready to be put into a pdf file (one can then run through the usual methods of extracting the text etc.).
Seriously, this is so basic and done daily when producing how-to manuals on numerous websites, from Microsoft to SourceForge pages.

Dark Archive

eirip wrote:
Holy moley! This is the longest thread I have ever seen I believe. I haven't checked in a few days because after reading 14 pages I was kind of burned out on the subject.............Now I click on it to find we are on page count 23 or something of that nature, it will take me forever to catch up, Maybe I wont even try.

While it's not the longest I have ever seen, it is the smurfing fastest growing one I've ever seen.


Tharen the Damned wrote:

Since WoC dos not sell PDF anymore there won`t be any pirated "Arcane Power" Books, right?

Just have a look at google and you will see the success of this venture.

Way to go Wizards!

Searching Google turns up nothing but torrent-trap pages made by websites that monitor search traffic with words like "torrent" in it, create misleading webpages that purport to contain links to the torrent requested, and merely redirect you to other websites instead.

In other words, there are no Arcane Power torrents available yet.

But sure, keep on jumping to those baseless conclusions!

I mean, really, which link did you think actually contained an actual copy of Arcane Power? The sumotorrent one?

Dark Archive

Scott Betts wrote:
nedleeds wrote:
99.9999999999999999999999999% of the people who own the 10 pirated copies (from the 10-to-1 estimate) WERE NOT GOING TO BUY THE PRODUCT ANYWAY - IN PRINT OR PDF.
No, I'm pretty sure that's not true.

This is anecdotal I know, but it does prove Scott's point. I purchased a copy of Player Handbook 2 hoping that it would arrive in time for the game I needed it for. When it did not, I let a friend talk me into downloading a pirate copy of the book. I had never done it before, and I felt so bad about it that I will bever do it again. In fact I deleted the copy almost right away. After all it wasn't Wizards fault that Amazon didn't get my book to me fast enough.

Edit: I don't consider myself a pirate, because a pirate wouldn't have felt bad about.


Too smurfin' fast.


J JOES wrote:

pretty must puts the death knell in all older edition products, as WotC obviously wants to see them gone, as they are NOT a part of either the Compendium or Character Builder, and are obviously viewed as no longer D&D games.

My thoughts exactly. I doubt they'll return.

Sure, they say that they're looking into it, but I'll believe it when I see it. wizards has shown again and again that their word isn't worth what a pig would spit.

I can see it: They'll introduce some pretty one-sided way to access books (i.e. you have to subscribe, and pay for the book, and even if you pay for the book itself, you can watch the stuff only as long as you're subscribed), but only for 4e material "at first". They'll excuse themselves with something like "technical difficulty" (which doesn't sound so far off, considering the technical ineptitude they have displayed so far), saying that they can only have new books on at first, as they were created with the new technology, and that others must be converted first, and will become available one after the other.

And then, after they have added the older 4e stuff, they'll just stopp adding stuff.

People better bookmark this post here so they have the "told you so" link handy in a couple of months/years.

J JOES wrote:


They wanted to splinter the market with the GSL bit, and a new edition, but at least they still had support from 3.x and older editions

As I said: Divide and conquer: First split the fanbase, and then, when you take away the toys of one part of the fanbase, it won't affect the other part as much. Add some preaching that you're not supposed to care unless you were directly affected, and you got rid of inconvenient customers who like to do things like think and have expectations.

J JOES wrote:


Paizo give me some more good stuff coming up with pathfinder please!

Legacy of Fire 3 and Dark Markets coming this week. (At least, subscriptions will be sent this week, which means we'll be getting our free PDFs)

Charles Evans 25 wrote:


KaeYoss:
Umm, was there anyone I needed to know about apart from Franky and Howard?

Hm... The wrangler brothers were supposed to come over, they had some racketteering to do.

Charles Evans 25 wrote:


I know the pet Shoggoth in the garden made some glomphhing noises the other night, and there was a tommy gun and a couple of bowlers hats with the owners' names on the linings spat out on the grass the next morning.

Ah, there they went. Then it's Crazy Joe, who was muttering about you and something "hilarious". Knowing him (and no one really ever does), that could mean anything.

Charles Evans 25 wrote:


Of course if my pet Shoggoth weren't so fastidious about what he eats, I wouldn't even have a aclue that these two gentlemen had called; there may have been others it didn't leave me traces of.

Tommies give them gas. So they don't eat it, which is really considerate of them, since they like the taste (plus, their gas is outlawed in 17 dimensions)


David Fryer wrote:
Edit: I don't consider myself a pirate,

And that is really the point. You don't really count in that 10:1 ratio estimate.

Besides, you already paid for the book.

What we're trying to say is, pirates who downloaded the illegal PHB2 just to have the PHB2, weren't going to pay for it anyway even if the illegal PDF didn't exist.
If that weren't true, they would have purchased the PDF anyway, since it was available at the time.


Disenchanter wrote:

What we're trying to say is, pirates who downloaded the illegal PHB2 just to have the PHB2, weren't going to pay for it anyway even if the illegal PDF didn't exist.

If that weren't true, they would have purchased the PDF anyway, since it was available at the time.

Except for the people who would purchase a copy of the book legitimately if no other option presented itself, but who - because an illegitimate, free option does present itself - download pirated copies of their books.

I personally know a number of people who fall into this category, and your logic doesn't allow for that.

You're completely discounting the possibility that people want products, and also want to minimize the amount of money they have to give up to get those products. If piracy didn't exist, there would still be people who want products, and many of them would still be willing to pay for them because they want those products.


Scott Betts wrote:
I personally know a number of people who fall into this category, and your logic doesn't allow for that.

That is because those people are such a small percentage of the "pirate culture." You may know all of them, in fact.

The people who would purchase, will purchase. The people who don't purchase won't. That's not 100% accurate, but since WotC is throwing out estimates, this is just as accurate as those estimates.

Scott Betts wrote:
You're completely discounting the possibility that people want products, and also want to minimize the amount of money they have to give up to get those products. If piracy didn't exist, there would still be people who want products, and many of them would still be willing to pay for them because they want those products.

That is because those are the "true pirates." The ones who will always find a way to not pay.

Scott Betts wrote:
If piracy didn't exist, there would still be people who want products, and many of them would still be willing to pay for them because they want those products.

You really need to stop editing as I reply. :-P

That is a mighty big "if" there. But those still count as the "true pirates." Ones who make a "marketable demand" for pirate material. The ones that keep pirates "in business," so to speak.


Disenchanter wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
I personally know a number of people who fall into this category, and your logic doesn't allow for that.

That is because those people are such a small percentage of the "pirate culture." You may know all of them, in fact.

The people who would purchase, will purchase. The people who don't purchase won't.

Except for those who would purchase, but will save money when an alternative presents itself.

You really seem to want to minimize this particular population, and I think you are vastly underestimating its size.


Disenchanter wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
I personally know a number of people who fall into this category, and your logic doesn't allow for that.

That is because those people are such a small percentage of the "pirate culture." You may know all of them, in fact.

The people who would purchase, will purchase. The people who don't purchase won't. That's not 100% accurate, but since WotC is throwing out estimates, this is just as accurate as those estimates.

Scott Betts wrote:
You're completely discounting the possibility that people want products, and also want to minimize the amount of money they have to give up to get those products. If piracy didn't exist, there would still be people who want products, and many of them would still be willing to pay for them because they want those products.
That is because those are the "true pirates." The ones who will always find a way to not pay.

No, they're just rational people following a pretty rudimentary economic model.


Disenchanter, let's engage in a little thought experiment.

Do you agree that most - or even many - people in the gaming community do not associate any particular moral stigma with internet piracy? Studies have shown that most people have no qualms about downloading pirated material illegally.

If so, do you agree that, to them, downloading a pirated copy of said material is functionally equivalent to them downloading a freely-offered, legitimate copy of that material?

If so, do you suggest that Paizo offer all of their material, freely, in PDF form?

If not, why? You've said that those who would purchase, do purchase even if they could get it for free. You've said that those who pirate wouldn't purchase, even if they couldn't get it for free. So what would be the harm in Paizo offering its products for free in PDF?

Do you see where I'm getting at here?

For a significant number of people, there is a rational calculus taking place, where they consider their options and take the most attractive one. Right now, that option is often piracy because pirated material is functionally equivalent to PDFs that can be purchased with the added bonus of being free. If those pirated materials are no longer available, this group of people will use that same rational calculus to re-evaluate their options, and a number of them will then choose to purchase the material because they desire it enough to give up money to get it when they have no other easily-available option.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Scott Betts wrote:

Disenchanter, let's engage in a little thought experiment.

Do you agree that most - or even many - people in the gaming community do not associate any particular moral stigma with internet piracy?

If so, do you agree that, to them, downloading a pirated copy of said material is functionally equivalent to them downloading a freely-offered, legitimate copy of that material?

If so, do you suggest that Paizo offer all of their material, freely, in PDF form?

If not, why? You've said that those who would purchase, do purchase even if they could get it for free. You've said that those who pirate wouldn't purchase, even if they couldn't get it for free. So what would be the harm in Paizo offering its products for free in PDF?

Do you see where I'm getting at here?

For a significant number of people, there is a rational calculus taking place, where they consider their options and take the most attractive one. Right now, that option is often piracy because pirated material is functionally equivalent to PDFs that can be purchased with the added bonus of being free. If those pirated materials are no longer available, this group of people will use that same rational calculus to re-evaluate their options, and a number of them will then choose to purchase the material because they desire it enough to give up money to get it when they have no other easily-available option.

Scott,

The flaw in your logic is that you assume the pirated copy will no longer be available. It will still be there, even if it's scanned in from the printed page.

Will it be of inferior quality to the printed version? Of course. But it will also but massively cheaper. Therefore demand will still exist. Therefore this has done little to nothing. As long as it's functional, even if the pictures aren't as great, the people you describe will pirate it.


Paul Watson wrote:

Scott,

The flaw in your logic is that you assume the pirated copy will no longer be available. It will still be there, even if it's scanned in from the printed page.

Actually, that wasn't part of my logic at all because it wasn't part of Disenchanter's claim - he was talking about how things would be if the illegal PDFs didn't exist.

You're right, as long as pirated material exists in ready form there will be a demand for it, but that demand is always a gradient.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Scott Betts wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:

Scott,

The flaw in your logic is that you assume the pirated copy will no longer be available. It will still be there, even if it's scanned in from the printed page.

Actually, that wasn't part of my logic at all because it wasn't part of Disenchanter's claim - he was talking about how things would be if the illegal PDFs didn't exist.

You're right, as long as pirated material exists in ready form there will be a demand for it, but that demand is always a gradient.

I was referring to the last paragraph, which seemed to be a separate line of argument. If the pirated options was taken away, which is likely impossible, the calculus would be radically different as there's no way to convince yourself you're not really stealing when you have to grab a physical book. Unfortunately, I can't see how the current actions achieve this, given that scanning is still available. And even with a new format, the idea of using print screen functions mentioned above would be effective enough for pirating.

Also, I'd like to apologise for the ill-tempered post I made to you yesterday. Not my finest hour.


I normally don't like chopping up a post, but it'll just make this easier to address.

Scott Betts wrote:

Disenchanter, let's engage in a little thought experiment.

Do you agree that most - or even many - people in the gaming community do not associate any particular moral stigma with internet piracy?

No. I don't.

Scott Betts wrote:
If so, do you agree that, to them, downloading a pirated copy of said material is functionally equivalent to them downloading a freely-offered, legitimate copy of that material?

No. Because I give role players the benefit of the doubt in being intelligent enough to know the difference. And I don't automatically attribute them to being so socially inept to not care about the difference.

Scott Betts wrote:
If so, do you suggest that Paizo offer all of their material, freely, in PDF form?

Ignoring the fact that I do get all of their PDFs freely, and legaly, I'd say maybe.

Radiohead shook up the music industry with their release of In Rainbows. They released it with a "pay as much as you want" method. (Essentially, free and they accept donations.) Many nay sayers will point out the statistic that "over 65% of people downloaded but didn't pay." But Thom Yorke, lead man for Radiohead admitted they made more off of that album than any previous album, and stated that they jokingly refer to the album as their retirement fund. Now, not everybody can thrive off of that model - and there is the new school of thought that it was simply a publicity stunt to get more fans (CNET reports Radiohead won't release that way again), but the point still stands.

I'm going to skip the rest of your post since it was made under the presumption that I would agree with your train of thought.


Scott Betts wrote:
Actually, that wasn't part of my logic at all because it wasn't part of Disenchanter's claim - he was talking about how things would be if the illegal PDFs didn't exist.

No. No I wasn't. Not one bit.


Lisa wrote:


You know that and I know that, but Amazon at least has been touting the security of the Kindle in regards to preventing piracy to the publishing industry. And the barrier to piracy IS higher, so that might be enough.

Vic mentioned to me that there was a company at a recent trade show who was touting a way to display PDFs on your screen and searching through them without the ability to copy text or download the file. This kind of tech could allow the PDFs to be shared via the DDI in a way that would make them almost as useful as the PDF version while again putting up a barrier to piracy. Of course, once your sub expired, so would your access...

-Lisa

People like to talk about 'raising the barrier for piracy', a barrier assumes an obstacle that everyone needs to cross. 'Piracy' is like piercing a balloon, when you pierce it once, it blows. And everyone can get at the contents.

Why isn't there a 'pirated' copy of Arcane Powers available yet? 'Pirates' thought that they could get the pdf version, they can't now. But that announcement was only made a few days ago, so the old scanners aren't yet up to speed yet. Not to mention that it's not yet out everywhere (it's not even at the distributors yet around here).

Essentially you have one dedicated nutcase with a scanner and it is all over. Sure the first draft will be a picture only, big ass file, but the second one will have text under it and will be search able, the third one will almost be inseparable from the pdf the printers got. How fast you'll get from version one to three depends on the demand for the book, D&D4E books will be in high demand.

I think WotC and many others have priced themselves out of the market with the high pdf prices. To many promises of digital versions of the book when you buy a physical book have been unfulfilled. When WotC started the digital initiative way back when they where still scanning and converting 2E D&D material into text selectable PDFs, the price of any PDF was $2.95. I've bought hundreds at that price, even though I already had a lot of the physical books, I wanted text search able versions of them. And even though $2.95 adds up quickly if you buy a few hundred, it was a small price to pay for the convenience and the ability to support the project (which was an significant investment at the time). Then you had the 3E pdfs, they still had the original layout files for the printers to create the pdfs from, literally a few clicks of a mouse button away. And they asked full cover price for it, no way I'm going to pay that price for a pdf of a book I already own. And I own a lot of books (~2000 RPG and wargame books), looking for something particular in that mess will take a lot of time, searching through a bunch of pdfs is very easy and very quick (and then picking up the physical book at the relevant page is easy).

An online service like Marvel.com is great and if WotC could do something similar I would be very happy, 5000 available comics with dozens added each week (43 last week), all for $60 a year. But I seriously doubt that WotC can come up with that amount of content for that price point...

Scarab Sages

KaeYoss wrote:
Unless they use alien technology to somehow protect their reader equipment and the media that carries the virtual books, people will find a way to convert them to a readable format that can be distributed over the net.

Alien technology won't help them.

Didn't you see 'Independence Day'?

All the hackers need is to hire Jeff Goldblum.


I'd have to dig through my hardcopies of Wired to find the retirement fund quote, but here is the interview I was mentioning with Thom Yorke.

Thom Yorke wrote:
In terms of digital income, we've made more money out of this record than out of all the other Radiohead albums put together, forever — in terms of anything on the Net. And that's nuts. It's partly due to the fact that EMI wasn't giving us any money for digital sales. All the contracts signed in a certain era have none of that stuff.

So I was wrong, it was that they made more off of that album than all of their albums put together.


So...five pages later, we're still going around in circles, eh?

There have been numerous studies (linked either earlier in this thread or in the WotC one) that conclude that:
a. The majority of people who pirate something would not have purchased it anyway, and
b. Pirated material can (and does) generate *additional* sales when some of the people who wouldn't have purchased end up buying BECAUSE they know it is the right thing to do.

Is the _net_ number a gain or loss? Who knows? But I'll tell you what I *do* know:

1. WoTC's PDF revenue was non-zero. It is now zero.

2. Removing legitate PDFs will not decrease piracy. If anything, it will incrase it.

3. Whether you think I'm being rational or not, I will never send another dollar to WoTC.

* No more minis (I own *thousands*)
* No more books (I have every 4E book in hardcopy)
* No more accessories (I own the DM screen and *EVERY* 4E mod)
* No more DDI (I've already cancelled my sub)

If i had to guess, I'd say that adds up to something well over $1000/yr. As a direct result of this action. After a great deal of consideration, I'm also going to drop out of my weekly 4E game.

PDFs being dead to WotC == WotC is dead to me.


Cergorach wrote:
Why isn't there a 'pirated' copy of Arcane Powers available yet? 'Pirates' thought that they could get the pdf version, they can't now. But that announcement was only made a few days ago, so the old scanners aren't yet up to speed yet. Not to mention that it's not yet out everywhere (it's not even at the distributors yet around here).

Arcane Power is "available" for a while now.

The same way movies are for sale in the street sometimes before in the theaters.


Paul Watson wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:

Scott,

The flaw in your logic is that you assume the pirated copy will no longer be available. It will still be there, even if it's scanned in from the printed page.

Actually, that wasn't part of my logic at all because it wasn't part of Disenchanter's claim - he was talking about how things would be if the illegal PDFs didn't exist.

You're right, as long as pirated material exists in ready form there will be a demand for it, but that demand is always a gradient.

I was referring to the last paragraph, which seemed to be a separate line of argument. If the pirated options was taken away, which is likely impossible, the calculus would be radically different as there's no way to convince yourself you're not really stealing when you have to grab a physical book. Unfortunately, I can't see how the current actions achieve this, given that scanning is still available. And even with a new format, the idea of using print screen functions mentioned above would be effective enough for pirating.

I agree; the only way I think this could turn out to be effective is if the utility previously provided by PDFs was instead incorporated into DDI - a service that many people already subscribe to for its digital-only offerings like the Compendium and Character Builder. For someone who is on the fence about whether or not to buy a copy of something or pirate it, the ability to sign up for a subscription service and receive access to things you could not get through illegitimate means could push them over. It's a gamble, certainly, but it's possible that such a service will prove fruitful in terms of reducing illegal filesharing of their material.

Paul Watson wrote:
Also, I'd like to apologise for the ill-tempered post I made to you yesterday. Not my finest hour.

Don't worry about it. This is a contentious topic within a passionate community. Any of us can get caught up in that, myself included.

1,201 to 1,250 of 1,655 << first < prev | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Paizo / Website Feedback / WotC halts PDF sales All Messageboards