How do I stop players stopping?


4th Edition

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Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
If you want to drop them for realism sake, feel free (personally, I'm not too concerned about realism in this case, but hey, to each his own). But if you're dropping them to deal with your players stopping too often, I really think you'd be better served using one of the many good suggestions people have given in this thread.

Just for clarity, it was Stefan's players who made this call.

Stefan Hill wrote:

We discussed the issue with my group and I quoted some of the suggestions. In the end we felt that dropping daily powers still left the characters at nearly full power and removed any reason other than healing surges to rest. Not sure if it works for other groups but the lost of the daily power(s) isn't such a biggie - well so far.

T.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Stefan Hill wrote:
Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:


Seems a tad dramatic an option to me just based on the fact that Daily's are pretty cool.
Unfortunately the number crunchers also saw the "pretty cool" and perhaps thought they were cool enough to warrant a bit of a withdraw/nap to regain between encounters.

Hmm. In our game the attitude has been "Daddy needs a new action point! Come on, milestone!"

In fact, during this weekend's game, the DM expected us to take an extended rest before we dropped into the scary basement, but we were on a roll, so ... and most everyone ended up on the floor. You know you're in trouble when the DM's been rolling in the open all night suddenly starts rolling in secret ...

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Disenchanter wrote:


Just for clarity, it was Stefan's players who made this call.

Stefan Hill wrote:

We discussed the issue with my group and I quoted some of the suggestions. In the end we felt that dropping daily powers still left the characters at nearly full power and removed any reason other than healing surges to rest. Not sure if it works for other groups but the lost of the daily power(s) isn't such a biggie - well so far.

T.

It sounds like Stefan's player's had a lot of input, but remember, as DM, Stefan is the final arbiter of what, if any, rule changes occur.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

non 4x player here, but wouldn't a reasonable counter to be change the mooks to emulate a 'encounter/daily power' for them to counter the resting.

For example (again, don't play so pulling things out of my hat)

Spoiler:
DM: Ok, you've all rested after killing the ogre, and got the powers back, what do you do?

Fighter: I use 'devistation blow' to kick open the door, it's a line effect should stun everyone on the other side.

DM: (Checks notes) Ok, you blast the door in, and you see a stunned bugbear.

Ranger: Ok, I cut loose with Awesome Arrow Storm and fill him full of holes.

DM: (checks notes, sees that the bugbear has a daily counter he gave him) The arrows seem to strike the bugbear, he shatters into pieces as the mirror you just targeted litters the ground with glass shards, you also get a -1 luck penalty for breaking the mirror.

That way you're making it clear that if the party takes time to recharge their dailies, they also have to deal with the monsters having daily powers to counter.


Stefan Hill wrote:
Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:


Seems a tad dramatic an option to me just based on the fact that Daily's are pretty cool.

Unfortunately the number crunchers also saw the "pretty cool" and perhaps thought they were cool enough to warrant a bit of a withdraw/nap to regain between encounters.

There was a general consensus that they didn't actually overly effect the game given they contributed so little to a characters power. I believe someone quoted characters are still at 90-95% power without them.

The players now either choose +2 healing surges or 1 extra encounter power instead of their daily power (can change which one after an extended rest). Works out pretty well so far, and in a way is more useful than the "one trick pony" of a daily. Dailies seem actually if you think about it a little out of place in 4E, and in some cases are difficult to imagine why they could only happen "daily" at any rate!

Seriously, drop dailies and the game feels more "realistic", meaning encounter powers seem 'right', you do a few cool things then a too buggered to do more - but too buggered to do something really cool after even 1-2 hours rest?! Dailies as stated by many add little to a character in terms of usefulness in a fight. In fact they sit there either being used in the first combat or perhaps even forgotten about until the end of the adventuring day unused. So it removes the "when should I use this power" issue of dailies as not to waste it.

Having played minus dailies I wouldn't go back...

You should try it,
S.

Well it sounds like you solved the problem with them not getting anything in return for their daily's - though the number crunchers might have jumped on this because an encounter power is actually more powerful then a daily - its usually almost as good and can be used every encounter. Still if it fixed the issue without undue whining and moaning the slight boost in power might well be worth it.


houstonderek wrote:

TO answer the OP:

Play 1e, we didn't have those problems back then. If you disengaged, the enemy either pursued or worked hard to make coming back a PITA. Pretty much every module and a whole page of the DMG addressed this.

This is why 1e > every edition since. Nothing existed in a vacuum, monsters didn't just sit around waiting for PCs to bust down the door, and the rules supported this style of play. Later editions were too focused (in the DMGs) on coddling the players, and, frankly, it lead to the "15 minute game day".

Bah, kids today...

:)

Houstonderek, I value your opinions a lot but I don't see this. I don't see how this was a particular feature of 1e. I've never played this way, even in 1st ed. I hope this isn't a threadjack. If so, I'll start a new thread.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

The story should drive the pacing of the encounters, not the other way around. Your stories need a built in time constraint to add dramatic tension and push the players along.

Here's a few examples:
- The princess has been kidnapped by soldiers from an enemy kingdom. The PCs must track her kidnappers and rescue her within a week, or the kidnappers will load her onto a ship and she'll be gone for good.
- Several townsfolk have gone missing and dark energies are massing above Blackspire Peak. If the townsfolk aren't rescued by midnight, they'll be sacrificed, unleashing a bound demon held within the mountain.
- The King is dying. A mysterious malady has laid him low, and the royal physicians are powerless to prevent it. He'll be dead within a fortnight. Only one slim hope remains, retrieve the Scepter of Hippocratus from the Lost Wastes and hope that its healing powers can revive the king.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Paul Worthen wrote:

The story should drive the pacing of the encounters, not the other way around. Your stories need a built in time constraint to add dramatic tension and push the players along.

Here's a few examples:
- The princess has been kidnapped by soldiers from an enemy kingdom. The PCs must track her kidnappers and rescue her within a week, or the kidnappers will load her onto a ship and she'll be gone for good.
- Several townsfolk have gone missing and dark energies are massing above Blackspire Peak. If the townsfolk aren't rescued by midnight, they'll be sacrificed, unleashing a bound demon held within the mountain.
- The King is dying. A mysterious malady has laid him low, and the royal physicians are powerless to prevent it. He'll be dead within a fortnight. Only one slim hope remains, retrieve the Scepter of Hippocratus from the Lost Wastes and hope that its healing powers can revive the king.

I'm not sure it always makes sense to have a time constraint on all adventures. Sometimes, it is better to have the possibility of wandering encounters, reasonable ones you might have in a dynamic adventuring environment, challenge the PCs' ability to set their own pace without consequences.

There's often not a whole lot of "story" involved in exploring a dungeon. It has been there for decades and it'll be there for decades to come. The story will be written by the PCs and how they interact with the environment. The time pressure should rise and fall depending on what they do and how the DM reacts to them. When dealing with an adventure like the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief or the Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, the time pressure tends to rise as the giants mobilize their defenses against the adventurers. If the PCs take too long searching about, the defenses become tougher and better organized. But once the defense's back is broken, the time pressure decreases since more of the giants flee and the PCs have less opposed time to explore and plunder the premises.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Bill Dunn wrote:
When dealing with an adventure like the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief or the Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, the time pressure tends to rise as the giants mobilize their defenses against the adventurers. If the PCs take too long searching about, the defenses become tougher and better organized.

That's another good way to do a time constraint. The basic idea is: if the PC's waste time, there are negative consequences. Maybe the fights are harder or maybe they fail at their mission. There is seldom a good reason to have an adventure with no time constraints. You end up with people searching every room 20 times trying to scrape every last hidden copper from the floor. There are some groups that like the exploration aspect of adventuring, and those people may really enjoy spending the time going into every nook and cranny of a dungeon.

Liberty's Edge

veector wrote:
houstonderek wrote:

TO answer the OP:

Play 1e, we didn't have those problems back then. If you disengaged, the enemy either pursued or worked hard to make coming back a PITA. Pretty much every module and a whole page of the DMG addressed this.

This is why 1e > every edition since. Nothing existed in a vacuum, monsters didn't just sit around waiting for PCs to bust down the door, and the rules supported this style of play. Later editions were too focused (in the DMGs) on coddling the players, and, frankly, it lead to the "15 minute game day".

Bah, kids today...

:)

Houstonderek, I value your opinions a lot but I don't see this. I don't see how this was a particular feature of 1e. I've never played this way, even in 1st ed. I hope this isn't a threadjack. If so, I'll start a new thread.

Veector:

Spoiler:
I know a lot of people didn't play 1e that way, but it was a design feature explicitly written into the rule books and quite a few of the Gygax authored modules. Most people didn't use the "roll every round" initiative rules, either, but they're still a "design feature" of the game.

Whenever I get into discussions like this, I generally just speak from a RAW perspective, and try to keep the way I or others may play from clouding that. I had houserules 50 pages thick for 1e - quite a few that showed up in 3x in one form or another - but I acknowledge that and don't use them as a reference when discussing the various editions.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

houstonderek wrote:


This is why 1e > every edition since. Nothing existed in a vacuum, monsters didn't just sit around waiting for PCs to bust down the door, and the rules supported this style of play. Later editions were too focused (in the DMGs) on coddling the players, and, frankly, it lead to the "15 minute game day".

Bah, kids today...

:)

That's it! You want an edition war?!?! I'll give you an edition war!!!

2e > 1e. 1e is for wargamers. It even has comics in the freaking DMG. What the hell is that about? 2e fixed everything broken in 1e and is the one true and perfect edition of the game.

2e FTW!

;-)

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
houstonderek wrote:


This is why 1e > every edition since. Nothing existed in a vacuum, monsters didn't just sit around waiting for PCs to bust down the door, and the rules supported this style of play. Later editions were too focused (in the DMGs) on coddling the players, and, frankly, it lead to the "15 minute game day".

Bah, kids today...

:)

That's it! You want an edition war?!?! I'll give you an edition war!!!

2e > 1e. 1e is for wargamers. It even has comics in the freaking DMG. What the hell is that about? 2e fixed everything broken in 1e and is the one true and perfect edition of the game.

2e FTW!

;-)

Second edition??? You mean that dumbed down, Religious Right appeasing mass of stinky owner's manual quality writing that rejected the idea that players had to THINK rather than have the DM hold their hand? THAT edition?

Dude, you know you like 2e because "rules lawyering" became more prevalent. Right, attorney boy?

Eh, I bet you play Digimon too...

;)

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

houstonderek wrote:


Second edition??? You mean that dumbed down, Religious Right appeasing mass of stinky owner's manual quality writing that rejected the idea that players had to THINK rather than have the DM hold their hand? THAT edition?

Dude, you know you like 2e because "rules lawyering" became more prevalent. Right, attorney boy?

Eh, I bet you play Digimon too...

;)

Your post has been flagged, sir. Not just that, it's been flagged using the super-secret "please make his poster a Bella Sara superscriber and discontinue sending him Pathfinder material flag."

We'll see which edition you think is superior when you no longer receive your fix from Paizo and you are forced to groom virtual ponies instead of gaming.

P.S. Just to show there are no hard feelings though, make sure to use the diamond butterfly brush on your pony's mane, not the sugar sunflower brush that Cosmo prefers. The sugar sunflower brush has a 23% chance of giving your pony fleas.

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
houstonderek wrote:


Second edition??? You mean that dumbed down, Religious Right appeasing mass of stinky owner's manual quality writing that rejected the idea that players had to THINK rather than have the DM hold their hand? THAT edition?

Dude, you know you like 2e because "rules lawyering" became more prevalent. Right, attorney boy?

Eh, I bet you play Digimon too...

;)

Your post has been flagged, sir. Not just that, it's been flagged using the super-secret "please make his poster a Bella Sara superscriber and discontinue sending him Pathfinder material flag."

We'll see which edition you think is superior when you no longer receive your fix from Paizo and you are forced to groom virtual ponies instead of gaming.

P.S. Just to show there are no hard feelings though, make sure to use the diamond butterfly brush on your pony's mane, not the sugar sunflower brush that Cosmo prefers. The sugar sunflower brush has a 23% chance of giving your pony fleas.

Fleas, you say? Are these the Giant Bloodsucking Fleas from Hell in "The Village of Hommlet" or some wussified 2e kid friendly fleas?

;)

Liberty's Edge

Bill Dunn wrote:


I'm not sure it always makes sense to have a time constraint on all adventures.

I agree, the "but there's no time" is good to use now and then for excitement but if used to often it comes across as DM railroading the players making the them feel less in control.

As for the players gaining a little bit more power with an extra encounter power. True, but not game breaking so we have found. In fact it seems that players now really think before choosing the +2 healing surges over the extra encounter power - nice to see. For us removing the dailies has helped us by making the powers seem more believable. The spells casters fair enough we could get our heads around the "daily" - pretty much like the old editions of D&D spell casting. But the fighter, for example the daily Brute Strike (You shatter armor and bone with a ringing blow.), why? Make little to no sense at all as to why a trained fighter can only do this once a day. The body recovers a lot faster than 12 hours from 6 seconds extreme effort!

T.


One house rule I've seen some people use is to say that when you reach a milestone your lowest-level daily power recharges, if it's been used. At heroic tier that's a bit butch, but once you get into paragon and epic tier those powers aren't that much more powerful than some of your encounter powers, so it ends up being OK.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Stefan Hill wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:


I'm not sure it always makes sense to have a time constraint on all adventures.

I agree, the "but there's no time" is good to use now and then for excitement but if used to often it comes across as DM railroading the players making the them feel less in control.

As for the players gaining a little bit more power with an extra encounter power. True, but not game breaking so we have found. In fact it seems that players now really think before choosing the +2 healing surges over the extra encounter power - nice to see. For us removing the dailies has helped us by making the powers seem more believable. The spells casters fair enough we could get our heads around the "daily" - pretty much like the old editions of D&D spell casting. But the fighter, for example the daily Brute Strike (You shatter armor and bone with a ringing blow.), why? Make little to no sense at all as to why a trained fighter can only do this once a day. The body recovers a lot faster than 12 hours from 6 seconds extreme effort!

T.

Hey, fair enough. If you're having fun, and your players are having fun, then everything worked out. Not the way I'd have gone with it, sure, but that's whats great about this game; Everyone plays it differently.

Still.... If you start to see them stopping after every fight to Extended Rest because they want their Action Point back, or (gulp) the 2 healing surges they used during the fight, I want you to promise me, you'll pick up the heaviest gaming book you can find and BEAT THEM ABOUT THE FACE WITH IT!

Liberty's Edge

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:


Still.... If you start to see them stopping after every fight to Extended Rest because they want their Action Point back, or (gulp) the 2 healing surges they used during the fight, I want you to promise me, you'll pick up the heaviest gaming book you can find and BEAT THEM ABOUT THE FACE WITH IT!

You have my solemn promise, and I'll even invite you to the "assault with a roleplaying book" court case that follows as my defense counsel.

:)


We've developed a house rule that you can't take an extended rest until you complete 2 milestones. It works great.


Stefan Hill wrote:

Hi,

We have been playing 4E for about 4 months now once a week. The problem I'm having is that everyone is now doing the infamous "15 min adventuring day". The real headache is if someone has used their daily power and another hasn't and they argue over taking a extended rest. Due to not being 100% sure of all 4E rules I have been using "canned" adventures. Without heavy modification there seems little reason that in most cases the players can't rest after immediately blowing their daily powers in almost every encounter. Exaggerating slightly, but the adventure feels like "clear room, rest to get daily power - repeat".

The only solution I have come up with (and is unpopular) is remove the daily power and allow the use of 2 more encounter powers.

Due to the power of a daily and if everyone uses theirs in a specific encounter my "15 min adventuring day" has dropped to a "5 minute adventuring day". Very frustrating from the DM's point of view.

Suggestions most welcome,
S.

Rather than requiring rest to regain a daily, flip it around and require progress to gain the ability to use a daily power. In many adventure stories, stronger powers only manifest after a few key feats are accomplished.

Try a gradual build up of power throughout the day until the required power level is reached... The build-up should not be strictly time-based, but perhaps a combination of time and use of encounter powers or reaching milestones.

Try this - a daily power may not be used until 4 encounter powers have been used and/or two milestones have been reached and/or 4 hours of game world time have passed with at least to moderate encounters. Experiment and adjust the numbers to see what works best...

This can help the party make progress throughout a series of encounters during the day and allow them to avoid blowing their dailies before the last major encounter with the boss of the day...

It can be explained/justified by the notion of having to earn the power through progress, rather than simply blowing it and getting it back merely by being a slacker.


You do all realise that you cannot take more than one extended rest in a given game day right?

The 15 minute adventuring day is not possible by the rules, so not a problem.

Your players complain? Explain the logistics of having a full nights sleep an hour after getting up, then throw some goblin ninja at them.


Stefan Hill wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:


Still.... If you start to see them stopping after every fight to Extended Rest because they want their Action Point back, or (gulp) the 2 healing surges they used during the fight, I want you to promise me, you'll pick up the heaviest gaming book you can find and BEAT THEM ABOUT THE FACE WITH IT!

You have my solemn promise, and I'll even invite you to the "assault with a roleplaying book" court case that follows as my defense counsel.

:)

Or you could use this power too...

BEST POWER EVER.


Stefan Hill wrote:

But the fighter, for example the daily Brute Strike (You shatter armor and bone with a ringing blow.), why? Make little to no sense at all as to why a trained fighter can only do this once a day. The body recovers a lot faster than 12 hours from 6 seconds extreme effort!

T.

The way I look at this is not that the fighter is actually performing a "move" called Brute Strike, but that he is getting off that one really amazing blow that was set up perfectly by his opponent. Kind of like how a basketball player might get off one amazing dunk per game. The opportunity doesn't present itself all that often.


Stefan Hill wrote:

But the fighter, for example the daily Brute Strike (You shatter armor and bone with a ringing blow.), why? Make little to no sense at all as to why a trained fighter can only do this once a day. The body recovers a lot faster than 12 hours from 6 seconds extreme effort!

T.

There's another way to look at it. The Fighter is always trying to land the really powerful blow, always waiting for the opportunity to show off his special trick. With Encounter powers it's something that can happen in nearly every fight, and that's why they're Encounter powers. With Daily powers it's something that doesn't happen as often, at most once a day. Now you could run a system where the rules deciding whether the opening is there, whether an opponent is in just the right position, and make people roll to see whether the opening occurs for them to take advantage of it. Or you see sod that and let the player decide that this is the one time today where someone is just open enough for them to try a particular trick.


Yeah, that's basically always been my interpretation of martial powers - they represent a character taking advantage of a specific opportunity in combat. It's even in the name - Exploits, representing exploiting a momentary advantage.

Some represent more common opportunities than others - encounters come up once a fight, dailies once a day - with the key element being that the player has the narrative control to essentially decide when the opportunity is there.

Now, I can certainly understand how some would prefer a more simulationist explanation - but the explanation is there, and perfectly coherent within the gamist/narratist model.


Stefan Hill wrote:

Hi,

We have been playing 4E for about 4 months now once a week. The problem I'm having is that everyone is now doing the infamous "15 min adventuring day". The real headache is if someone has used their daily power and another hasn't and they argue over taking a extended rest. Due to not being 100% sure of all 4E rules I have been using "canned" adventures. Without heavy modification there seems little reason that in most cases the players can't rest after immediately blowing their daily powers in almost every encounter. Exaggerating slightly, but the adventure feels like "clear room, rest to get daily power - repeat".

The only solution I have come up with (and is unpopular) is remove the daily power and allow the use of 2 more encounter powers.

Due to the power of a daily and if everyone uses theirs in a specific encounter my "15 min adventuring day" has dropped to a "5 minute adventuring day". Very frustrating from the DM's point of view.

Suggestions most welcome,
S.

I must confess my groups doesn't have a habit of stopping after each encounter but I'd be inclined to encourage the group to forge on remember to remind them that their is a limit on the daily use items which does increase with Milestones and that they can earn more Action Points from continuing instead of stopping.

The Paladin should be ashamed, what a wimp!!


The problem is (yeah...here I go again) that you have two entirely different D&D games when you play the game. Mostly it's about what you want. There's the D&D where you emulate reality, where the idea of taking a nice nap in a room full of the still groaning bodies of the monsters you've just killed, inside a crumbling sublevel of some stone ruin in the middle of a jungle, where it's like 100 degrees out there, is just unpleasant. Really unpleasant--like it really wouldn't be fun.

Plus it's not like you're alone in there. There's stuff that freakin' wants to eat your lunch and having most of your guys asleep and in various states of undress is not how you want to meet them. I'm not talking here about a "wandering monster" attack in the middle of the rest session. I'm talking about 24 hours of hanging out cooling your heels in the worst place ever, while the badguys sneak around and block of your escape route with their toughest guys, and then surround you with the combined might of what otherwise would have been a room-by-room extermination frenzy.

So how would I deal with folks if they decided to sleep a couple of rooms in if I were running the game? First of all, I'd play through it. Not round by round commentary, but I'd let them know what they were in for. It's too hot to sleep, the ground is hard, the armor is cutting off the circulation to the fighter's arm, the bard is stuck trying to sleep next to the gurgling, not quite dead guy. Big spiders, rats, giant roaches. Second, when they finally finished messing around, the dungeon would be SERIOUSLY different. Maybe it's totally empty now, just a bunch of caves and whatever clues and treasure that were there have gotten away ("what happened while we were asleep...whoa"). Maybe the game goes from room by room encounters to a Custer-esque charge from surrounding monsters that they have to survive wave after wave of until they can escape...or until they don't.

That kind of D&D isn't for every group though. Especially since 4e has shown up, there's a heavy gamist streak to things, nice distinct encounters bought up with XP point values to be level equivalent challenges, treasure parsels, all that. If you're running a more traditional game it gets a bit harder to prevent people from doing game-advantageous things without using pretty overtly game centered tactics. One option I'd suggest, in the spirit of 4e, is to encourage them to play the way they want to play. Handwave the time spent resting, but build up every encounter for a fully charged group of heroes. If there's one badguy the heroes are saving their dailies for, throw in two badguys, one to fall to the dailies and another to represent the one that would have been there if they didn't have the dailies (heck you can even just use the same exact statblock and just describe them differently). Have tons of minions to sap their area effects. Let them enjoy the power they seem so anxious to throw around. Use them resting a lot to make bigger, more exciting battles. It'll throw off the XP curve, all those extra badguys--but then that just gives you more ability to have bigger, more dynamic fights too.

So it's sort of a lemon-lemonade kinda' thing.


This is going to sound crazy, but bare with me. Talk to your players. Find out why they are resting so frequently. Explain how it is having a negative impact on your immersion. Then try to find a mutually beneficial agreement that addresses everyone's issue.

If that fails, just dock them XP, because, afterall, players are just there to be abused by Game Masters.

Dark Archive

FabesMinis wrote:
I just say "Guys, seriously, think about this as if it were real. In the next room are some monsters who know you're in their base killing their dudes. They have prisoners - if you rest now, those prisoners will be dead or moved to another location. If you rest here, you will be ambushed in your sleep by the rest of the fortress troops."

This.

The Exchange

KaeYoss wrote:
Wait, wasn't that taken care of in 4e? I'm almost positive they said so.

Yeah, this. I thought one of the big talking points was that the fifteen minute adventuring day had been addressed.

Anyway, to answer: Not-so-random Wandering monsters help with this. I mean, end the 'static' dungeons and have mosters start to move around a bit this could really work against the party if the trail of bodies they have left behind is noticed and all of a sudden every monster in the place is actively looking for them.

Adventures where the party is on a time limit for whatever reason work too, of course you can't use that for every adventure, but tossing out a time or two may get your players to break the habit.

Liberty's Edge

A sawed off shotgun behind the DMs screen works too.

:D

The Exchange

houstonderek wrote:

A sawed off shotgun behind the DMs screen works too.

:D

Note to self: Stopping early in Derek's homebrew NOT recommended...


Darkwolf wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
Wait, wasn't that taken care of in 4e? I'm almost positive they said so.
Yeah, this. I thought one of the big talking points was that the fifteen minute adventuring day had been addressed.

It was.

The 15-minute adventuring day comes from casters burning through their spells in the first one or two encounters of the day, and feeling useless the rest of the time (not to mention the rest of the party feeling antsy about not having heals to back them up). This concern is gone from 4th Edition - even if you spend all your daily powers in the first encounter, you are guaranteed to have an array of moderately powerful encounter powers at your disposal no matter how many fights you've made it through today. You won't be as powerful as if you'd started the day fresh, but you'll never feel useless, or even close to it. The real limiter on how long a party can adventure is healing surges. Most parties will have enough resources to make it through at least 4 fights before they're in danger of losing without an extended rest.

Where previously parties would retire for the day out of necessity after the casters blew through their spells, now extended rests are simply a matter of convenience.

Between the necessary short rests, combat and exploration, I'd bet the average adventuring day (in terms of a dungeon crawl) is well above an hour at this point.

Liberty's Edge

I just played my first 4E delve format last night (our regular PF Second Darkness campaign is taking a brief pause to allow for summer vacations), so now I'm naturally an expert on all things 4E ;) and I felt compelled to throw in my 2 coppers.

We played with first level characters in a short delve right out of the book (something about kobolds holding a dwarf prisoner captive) and had a good time even though we were not really familiar with the rules. The party consisted of:

Warforged Warlord 1
Dragonborn Fighter 1
Dragonborn Sorcerer 1
Dwarf Barbarian 1

Very martial party, lots of offense, little defence (an no common sense). There were 3 encounters and we didn't really think about saving our daily powers for the final battle. We just trundled along willy-nilly and used what abilities seemed "cool".

Somehow, we managed to finish the delve with only 2 deaths (sorcerer and warlord recovered from unconciousness just in time to dispatch the BBEG's surviving rogue before he killed us). A squeaker to be sure, but we survived the whole thing without taking more than a short rest between encounters.

If a group of total noobs at 4E can survive a delve-format adventure without resting, I see no reason why it is nescessary for an experienced group to have a long rest after every encounter. Bunch of nancy-boys! :)

Sounds like they're over-dependant on their BFG's and lack imagination. I suggest that you address the issue with a brief chat out of game and see if they are willing to voluntarily adjust their play style. Barring that, I definitely support the idea of a ticking clock in the background of a few adventures. Once they fail a few times (with increasingly dire consequences) because they took too many rests, they should get the hint.

You can also tell them that a total noob at 4E mocked them for being "too tired" to put in a whole day's fightin'. ;)

Liberty's Edge

Xuttah wrote:
You can also tell them that a total noob at 4E mocked them for being "too tired" to put in a whole day's fightin'. ;)

Oh I will...

The issue stems from the fact that players are mostly from a wargaming background. Please do not read this as a hit at 4e it is nothing more than a statement of fact. They PLAY 4e like a wargame, they live for the bits where the battle board comes out and the game of chess begins. As such they always are looking for the game mechanical bonuses. In an ideal World perhaps they would drop the wargame mentality and do "what is cool", but 4e has handed them a stage to unleash the pure wargamer "hunt for pluses". I can see why 4e has polarised people so much, it brings out the extremes in roleplaying. The one being those who think of interesting reasons why power X or Y does what it does and describes such things during the game, and the other those who sit quietly waiting for the chess board to be placed so they can RULE...

Could just be the 4e doesn't work with groups of people who are a mix of the two extremes?

4e is fun but I think the black and white way in which the roleplaying parts and the combat parts seem almost like different games cause issues.

Not to say I'm not having fun, but I do spend a portion of the time playing rolling my eyes.

S.

Liberty's Edge

Stefan Hill wrote:


4e is fun but I think the black and white way in which the roleplaying parts and the combat parts seem almost like different games cause issues.

I think you might have something there. I must go to my thinking spot...


Xuttah wrote:
Stefan Hill wrote:


4e is fun but I think the black and white way in which the roleplaying parts and the combat parts seem almost like different games cause issues.
I think you might have something there. I must go to my thinking spot...

Its worth noting that I think Stefan Hill is essentially drawing a line between gaming when its time to bring out the battle board and when the game proceeds without the battle board.

You got this dichotomy in 3.x as well if you played with battle mats. In each case the game goes from something that is pretty much purely in the minds eye to what amounts to a subsystem that focuses on tactical combat. Obviously prior to 3.x this dichotomy did not exist.


To the OP, I simply prevented the players from using metagaming reasons to rest every 5 seconds ("I don't care that BALDUR'S GATE lets you do it, it doesn't make sense!").

In 2E the easy answer was that if a wizard has woken up, walked 2 miles, fired off a magic missile and retreated, he's actually done considerably less work than the average person in a quasi-medieval world. As a result he's fully wide awake and still 8+ hours from feeling tired enough to go to sleep (and no, the warrior knocking him out doesn't work either).

In 3E, sure wizards could meditate and priests could pray and reduce the resting time, but the number of times that they did this and a horde of goblins would show up that the warriors would have to fend off in a desperate battle to stop them disturbing the spellcasters was quite remarkable. We got to the point where the spellcasters would have to retreat to a nearby inn or something to get their spells back whilst the rest of the party carried on with the quest. And once the spellcasters realised they were missing out on half the game, they stopped dicking around and got on with roleplaying, which was the whole point.

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
Obviously prior to 3.x this dichotomy did not exist.

Unless you used miniatures in 1E and 2E, as a lot of people did.

And of course it doesn't exist in 3E if you don't use battlemats and miniatures at all (as my group never did).

Liberty's Edge

As an option- just tell them "You aren't tired"

I've done that with parties from time to time. They will say "I've burned through my good spells, Lets rest."

I'll say, "well lets see your party got up at 8am, walked the hour to the cave entrance, fought the guards...what did that take 2 minutes? Went into the complex and got to the Barracks where you took out the resting guards and the Sergeant...another 5 minutes? So youve been awake for 1 hour and 7 minutes after sleeping for 8 hours. I dont think you are sleepy at all. You can stop and rest, but I think you'll be just sitting there for a long time in the middle of the base until your body feels like it neds to rest. I would suggest using your abilities carefully."


Dread wrote:

As an option- just tell them "You aren't tired"

I've done that with parties from time to time. They will say "I've burned through my good spells, Lets rest."

I'll say, "well lets see your party got up at 8am, walked the hour to the cave entrance, fought the guards...what did that take 2 minutes? Went into the complex and got to the Barracks where you took out the resting guards and the Sergeant...another 5 minutes? So youve been awake for 1 hour and 7 minutes after sleeping for 8 hours. I dont think you are sleepy at all. You can stop and rest, but I think you'll be just sitting there for a long time in the middle of the base until your body feels like it neds to rest. I would suggest using your abilities carefully."

Conveniently, this is actually in the rules!

Per page 263 of the PHB:

"Once per Day: After you finish an extended rest, you have to wait 12 hours before you can begin another one."

You can't benefit from two extended rests that quickly after one another. If the PCs want to take another extended rest, they're going to be camping for about 18 hours to do so.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

So, I'm jumping in at the bottom of this 2nd page and I'm not sure this has been mentioned yet or not...

But perhaps you should consider toning down the power? Not every encounter should be a resource drain or a life-and-death experience. In fact, as PCs level up, it's good to give them encounters that are, if not cake-walks, at least relatively simple so they can blast through the encounter with little or no drain to their daily resources. Doing this lets the PCs feel tough, and gives them concrete, in-game proof that they're getting better at what they do. (If every encounter is so balanced that, from a strict numbers viewpoint, they play out the same every time, what's the point of increasing level in the first place—you can just keep reusing the same basic stats but with different descriptions at that point.)

Anyway, using less overwhelming encounters lets you use MORE encounters, since the PCs aren't forced to use all their resources up in the first or second encounter in the day. And that means that you can have more encounters in a day.

Of course... if all of the players are having fun with the game even though they're doing a 15 minute day and stopping all the time... you might just have to accept the fact that that's the way your group prefers to play the game. If that makes the game unenjoyable enough for you as GM, you should talk with your players and try to come to a compromise.

I'm not SUPER familiar with 4E, but one other thing strikes me. If the PCs don't have a wide range of at will abilities, maybe they're just getting bored with those abilities? Maybe you can address the problem not by reducing/increasing the availability of daily/encounter powers, but by introducing variant uses or other options to their at will powers?


There dailies so there for can only be used once a day. that would be how I would simply house rule that real quick if I played 4th Edition. Not to mention resting after every fight would be stupid.


I've use James Jacob trick for a few adventures and it resolve a lot of problem we had: Encounters are resolve a lot quicker ( I throw at them a few encounters 1-2 level lower than their current level) and they usually keep their daily powers for the last and critics encounters ...
And I usually make sure to have some time constraint to complete the adventure... for exemple, if the captured citizens they are supposed to save are not liberated in time because of extended rest, you could be sure that they will be executed or transformed into Khyber's aberration.... and the heroes will have to live with the consequences of their innaction...

Dark Archive

I recommend shock collars, give them out to all the players and make them put them on. Then if they talk about stopping or going off plot just shock them. :D


Dark_Mistress wrote:
I recommend shock collars, give them out to all the players and make them put them on. Then if they talk about stopping or going off plot just shock them. :D

and thats why shes the "dark mistress"...kinky, but i like it....oo to know her in real life... *whistles wolf sound*

personally, when something slows the party down, or when they dilly dally around wasting time, i send a lone kobold fighter specialized in heavy crossbow and get within 60feet and have him pick of a random guy. nothing says "get moving" when a character gets pegged from a lowly kobold who rolls 3 natural 20s...


James Jacobs wrote:

So, I'm jumping in at the bottom of this 2nd page and I'm not sure this has been mentioned yet or not...

But perhaps you should consider toning down the power? Not every encounter should be a resource drain or a life-and-death experience. In fact, as PCs level up, it's good to give them encounters that are, if not cake-walks, at least relatively simple so they can blast through the encounter with little or no drain to their daily resources. Doing this lets the PCs feel tough, and gives them concrete, in-game proof that they're getting better at what they do. (If every encounter is so balanced that, from a strict numbers viewpoint, they play out the same every time, what's the point of increasing level in the first place—you can just keep reusing the same basic stats but with different descriptions at that point.)

Anyway, using less overwhelming encounters lets you use MORE encounters, since the PCs aren't forced to use all their resources up in the first or second encounter in the day. And that means that you can have more encounters in a day.

Of course... if all of the players are having fun with the game even though they're doing a 15 minute day and stopping all the time... you might just have to accept the fact that that's the way your group prefers to play the game. If that makes the game unenjoyable enough for you as GM, you should talk with your players and try to come to a compromise.

I'm not SUPER familiar with 4E, but one other thing strikes me. If the PCs don't have a wide range of at will abilities, maybe they're just getting bored with those abilities? Maybe you can address the problem not by reducing/increasing the availability of daily/encounter powers, but by introducing variant uses or other options to their at will powers?

I doubt most parties are stopping because they are bored with their standard abilities and just want to use the daily's. I'd say that if you've played a 3.5 sorcerer you've got a descent feel for the options on the table for a 4E character. Sure the Daily's are cool (or whats the point?) but I suspect that the real issue, most of the time is simply a feeling that optimal play is to go nova on every encounter but then to immediately rest.

Even hitting the players with weak encounters does not necessarily stop this behavior, after all one of the wimpy bad guys might nick a player for 1 hp worth of damage. Obviously, baring some reason to continue the adventure its net optimal play to immediately leave the adventure, rest, and get your 1 hp back.

Also, while setting up encounters where the PCs feel powerful is certainly possible and probably a good idea some of the time you'd probably use this a little less often in 4E then in 3.5 because the minions always give off this feel. Even in a tough minion encounter - say a lower level party defending a barn from 60 zombies. Here the players are going to feel that they kick ass...its just that there are a **** of a lot of zombies out there.

Liberty's Edge

Hurm...maybe nightmare creature template a la Freddie Kruger?


Rest. Hehe.

"You sit around chatting about your morning melee. Unfortunately the aroma of goblin jerky attracts... "

But then I'm sure someone already mentioned this.


James Jacobs wrote:
Of course... if all of the players are having fun with the game even though they're doing a 15 minute day and stopping all the time... you might just have to accept the fact that that's the way your group prefers to play the game. If that makes the game unenjoyable enough for you as GM, you should talk with your players and try to come to a compromise.

I think this is great advice in general, and I can't stress it enough.

If your players are enjoying the way the game is going, don't feel like you have to "fix" a perceived problem unless you are not enjoying the way the game is going. If no one's enjoyment of the game is being harmed, there's no real reason to fix a problem that isn't a problem - especially if the fix itself ends up lessening the players' enjoyment of the game!


James Jacobs wrote:
But perhaps you should consider toning down the power? Not every encounter should be a resource drain or a life-and-death experience.

I was having the same problem as the OP, and this is how I solved it. I realized that I was making every encounter too balanced. Unless there was a good reason not to, I started using monsters slightly lower level than the party and throwing in a few more minions. I also explained the milestone rules a little more in depth. Once my players realized the benefits, they were less eager to rest every 5 minutes. So far, it's working out much better. Combat encounters take less time, so we get through more of the adventure each session, the players still level at about the same pace (real time), and it makes the tougher, more balanced encounters stand out.

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