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Well, champions will help you think about powers from a game mechanic and world building and stuff like that; is excellent; but not sure you can translate that easily into a DC type environment.


Valegrim wrote:
Well, champions will help you think about powers from a game mechanic and world building and stuff like that; is excellent; but not sure you can translate that easily into a DC type environment.

Basically I'm looking for ideas on how to organize and run powers within a game. I'm taking my own stab at it (as you already know) but am finding myself in pretty foreign ground. I'm sure there are short cuts I might catch on to as well as game mechanic information I hadn't considered.

If I buy Champions (assuming I find it) what version am I looking for?

Can you elaborate on why you don't think it translates well to a DC environment?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I'd recommend either the Fourth Edition (copyright 1989) or the Fifth Edition (copyright 2002).

The fifth edition creates a lot more "pre-packaged options" for the characters, making it easier for beginners to assemble reasonably viable characters, and also has a lot of good advice to GMs.

And, again, avoid the FUZION / "Champions of New Millennium" edition.


Chris Mortika wrote:

I'd recommend either the Fourth Edition (copyright 1989) or the Fifth Edition (copyright 2002).

The fifth edition creates a lot more "pre-packaged options" for the characters, making it easier for beginners to assemble reasonably viable characters, and also has a lot of good advice to GMs.

And, again, avoid the FUZION / "Champions of New Millennium" edition.

Will do, thanks Chris, very much appreciated. The DC and Marvel seem to take a pretty free wheeling approach to powers and I'd like to look at a source that tries something in depth to see where exactly I fit in. The more I develop, the more rules intensive it gets. Not an overwhelming amount so far, but ample play testing will show what stays and what goes. Powers are presenting a big challenge as far as oganizing them and how to write them up.

Thus far I've gone with each power has multiple effects each of which gets its own description similiar to spells in D&D. The stats are bold face first, followed by the descriptions that follow which is where the game mechanics are fully explained for that ability. The bold face stats provide a quick look as to how the mechanics work. This approach takes up a lot of space yet free wheeling isn't really my style, so I'm looking for some examples I could consider. Just to give a better idea, I'll post what I wrote up for Bouncing Boy last night and this morning. It's not final not edited but perhaps you might be kind enough to offer some advice. I'll post it on the Legion thread though.


Eileenprophetessofwonderousthings:)

any version of champions you find will be good for your needs; the new version have some tweaks and help streamline and stuff like that; but for your needs as I understand them; any set will lay out the basic premise of the game.

defenses are cheaper than offenses
5pts for 1d6 normal damage or 1" of effect if a movement power
a good description of normal vs killing damage
defense and body of items; ie how much before it breaks
how to run power frameworks to group power types
how to use advantages and limitations to really finely tune your hero
really good list of skills; powers; and talents to mimic just about any super ability you can imagine.

a good description of what the difference between a power and an effect is; this is where a lot of people get hung up; a power is a game mechanic of what happens; an effect is what it looks like when it happens.

for obssessive people who just like to play and play and play to build stuff just to see; this system is great; take Godzilla for instance; it is really cool that you can have lots of people build him and he is likely to not have anyone build him the same. (I think when I built him he was in one version 1730pts and the other)

Scarab Sages

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
So I plan on going shopping for comics again very soon. Should I try and find the Mutants and Masterminds game or Champions. Which version of which game will help me the best with detailing out powers? I'm rule obsessive.

Champions for sure.

I haven't read M&M but from what I hear Champions would be what you are looking for.

Scarab Sages

Chris Mortika wrote:


And, again, avoid the FUZION / "Champions of New Millennium" edition.

+1 from me too.


Very well, I shall see if I can find the appropriate version of Champions to speed me along. Thank you all very much.


As a former Champions GM, if you like the D20 rules, I assure you that Mutants and Masterminds with the Ultimate Power sourcebook is the way to go...
Mutants and Masterminds is a better system if you want different level of powers for your campaign... You could play street level or cosmic level heroes pretty easily and you won`t need to add 20d6 every time you hit the villains or keep track of every Endurance points you spent every second you act...! :-)

Liberty's Edge

I would recommend getting Hero System sidekick first. Here is a link to the Hero Game store: http://shortify.com/8372 . It's an introductory book that has about 80% of the rules if you want to get started. You may also want to hold off on getting Champions as Hero games intends to release a 6ED Hero system ruleset sometime around Gencon 2009 along with a new version of the Champions book.


Just purchased Heroes/Champions revised 5th edition. Nearly 590+ pages. At this point I was very impressed with the game. Contained many of the elements I was pushing for in my Legion game, got the impression (for the moment anyway) that a lot of information/ideas would transfer over well to mine.

The question is....should I do what I did with Top Secret/S.I., which is rewrite the rules from first page to last page using the Top Secret/S.I. system and modifying everything I ever wanted to? Taking this approach means starting over and retaining things I really liked that I had come up with or rewriting the ideas so that they are compatable with the Heroes/Champion game.

The significantly big positive here is that I would probably accomplish things a lot faster and have more to show for my efforts over the next several months/years. The big downside is that I can only play it. I would be unable to seek out any publishing because of this factor.

Or should I continue with my own creation (despite how slow its taking) and use the Heroes/Chamions game as a solid form of ideas and inspiration to consider, adding it to my wealth of RPG knowledge. I would say that between Marvel, DC, and Heroes/Champions, this game is far closer to the rules intensive that I enjoy.

The significantly big positive here is that I would still create the game I think Legion should be and at the same time eventually give me a greater sense of satisfaction (assuming I succeed over the coarse of 5 years or so). As long as they are rules of my creation I can submit them for publishing with DC comics when the day comes (knows this is a dream that most likely will never come true however).

What would you do?

Thanks for all the recommendations everyone.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Eileen,

How many players do you have, how attached are they to their current character concepts and mechanics (let's face it, any change in game system changes the list of smart tactical decisions), and how much work do you want to put into the change-over?


Chris Mortika wrote:

Eileen,

How many players do you have, how attached are they to their current character concepts and mechanics (let's face it, any change in game system changes the list of smart tactical decisions), and how much work do you want to put into the change-over?

I've got 2 players and it most likely won't increase. The daughter has decided that Super-Heroes are not cool enough compared to D&D so she's bowing out (not real surprised here), and in a couple of years she leaves for college anyway.

My primary interests are...

1. Having decent rules to play by that fit my style of play
2. Build the Legion universe (campaign world)

We discussed it briefly this morning and the general concesus is to cherry pick and continue with the current system I've been working on. I've seen a lot of parallels between my ideas and the Heros/Champions game as well as some basic differences. My ideas fall into a mixture of this system and Marvel (the idea of using categories). I'd rather continue with my own and cherry pick because in time I want to have a game that I can call my own.

No one has any strong attachment to characters they have started putting together because we are still operating out of the core Legionnaires from the comics and trying to get comfortable with the basics of the combat system.

Any suggestions you have to offer are well received.


I suggest you play the Marvel Universe Roleplaying Game. Check out this link for more information.

http://murpg.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display& ;thread=119


Yea, I have the Marvel game here at home. I like to write a lot of my own gaming material and essentially make my own gaming books. This is what I did with Top Secret/S.I. over the past several years, and now I want to try it with something else. A year ago, I started making some serious effort into designing a Legion of Super-Heroes RPG. After tons of tries, retries, and do overs, I believe I've settled on the basic combat system. I found the powers and various rules of Marvel and DC to be a little more free flowing than I'm use to. I like rule intrusive games (for the most part) and since I was delving into foreign territory (the Super Hero genre) I've found myself at a loss for how to design various mechanics. At this point in time I believe I'll be using the Heroes/Champions book and utilizing it for brainstorming and accomidate many of the ideas using the combat system I've already come up with. After reviewing the book somewhat, I can see how a lot of this information could be transferred or utilized. I'm already seeing tons of ways to improve my thinking in regards to how powers should work and be designed.


The Heroes/Champions revised 5th edition was just what I needed. I've already made worthy ground on how powers should work. Thanks for the suggestions all, greatly appreciated.

Scarab Sages

First, let me state that I am a HUGE Hero Games fan, but I cannot tolerate the DC Heroes slighting that has gone on here.

The DC Heroes (2nd and 3rd editions only) system is extraordinarily robust. In fact, it is as flexible as Hero and it plays much quicker. It is more 'role' play than tactical, Hero is the king of tactical -- having Star Fleet Battles as one of its system influences.

I also noticed some slighting the FUZION engine version of Champions. While I too would not recommend it, it was an amazingly ambitious attempt to fuse Champions with R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk system. In that capacity, it succeeded greatly. The publishers merely underestimated the love their fans had for their house system. The reboot was likely published as 4e sales dropped as every 4e product was a Dark Champions product for a good sting.

All that said, Hero 5th is a great game with great support. The Galactic Champions sourcebook is a good place to look if you want to run a Legion game.

Christian


Christian Johnson wrote:


Hero 5th is a great game with great support. The Galactic Champions sourcebook is a good place to look if you want to run a Legion game.

Christian

What's this you say, what's this Galactic Champions sourcebook you speak of?

The Exchange

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
Christian Johnson wrote:


Hero 5th is a great game with great support. The Galactic Champions sourcebook is a good place to look if you want to run a Legion game.

Christian

What's this you say, what's this Galactic Champions sourcebook you speak of?

One of the best resources around for a futurist superhero game. Galactic Champions


Crimson Jester wrote:
EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
Christian Johnson wrote:


Hero 5th is a great game with great support. The Galactic Champions sourcebook is a good place to look if you want to run a Legion game.

Christian

What's this you say, what's this Galactic Champions sourcebook you speak of?
One of the best resources around for a futurist superhero game. Galactic Champions

Thanks much folks, I shall check it out. Is this book available at gaming stores or only online?

The Exchange

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
Crimson Jester wrote:
EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
Christian Johnson wrote:


Hero 5th is a great game with great support. The Galactic Champions sourcebook is a good place to look if you want to run a Legion game.

Christian

What's this you say, what's this Galactic Champions sourcebook you speak of?
One of the best resources around for a futurist superhero game. Galactic Champions
Thanks much folks, I shall check it out. Is this book available at gaming stores or only online?

Both. Or at least it used to be I got mine at the FLGS and have a PDF as well, actually of almost all the Hero system stuff, I Really like champions

~drools like an idiot


Like Jester, i have tons of HERO system product myself and have played it for hmm..over a decade. If you have any questions on ways to implement or wish any feedback on your world building Eileen, feel free to throw up a thread and i am sure others in addition to myself would be happy to help.

Happy World Building =)


Rathendar wrote:

Like Jester, i have tons of HERO system product myself and have played it for hmm..over a decade. If you have any questions on ways to implement or wish any feedback on your world building Eileen, feel free to throw up a thread and i am sure others in addition to myself would be happy to help.

Happy World Building =)

Okie Dokey, sounds good. It took me basically a year to settle on the basic game mechanics. I spent the greater portion of the year trying out different ideas, eventually found myself coming back full circle and utilizing some d20 ideas mixed with my own. The Champions/Heroes really spurs on the creative thought process which is exactly what I needed. Down the road I'll probably be looking to playtest it more extensively. If your a Legion fan and this intrests you get back to me on my Legion thread under Comics.


lol; thought so; well; better late than never; thought i suggested this like a year ago hehe

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
The Heroes/Champions revised 5th edition was just what I needed. I've already made worthy ground on how powers should work. Thanks for the suggestions all, greatly appreciated.


Valegrim wrote:

lol; thought so; well; better late than never; thought i suggested this like a year ago hehe

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
The Heroes/Champions revised 5th edition was just what I needed. I've already made worthy ground on how powers should work. Thanks for the suggestions all, greatly appreciated.

In my defense, I would just like to say that the idea of rolling a d20 and having a challenge score is only 1 small part of the system, the rest is mine...so...(insert rude noise) and be nice, I'm special.


This game is really coming around now, I've used snippets of the book to spur on ideas and its working so well. Before I bought this book I had an idea of what I wanted to do, just didn't know how to do it. Now the Powers chapter is exceeding my expectations. The great thing is I get ideas rather than just implementing the material. An incredible boost to the Legion game. Thanks again and if anyone want to take a gander let me know.


It is a great system once people get past the vicious lies about it.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

CourtFool wrote:
It is a great system once people get past the vicious lies about it.

What lies are you speaking of?

The learning curve for the Hero System can be a might difficult. I think that it is the biggest obsticle to the game being a larger success then it is.

In any even, I am seeing that Mutants & Masterminds is playing better for me (at list in the Superhero genre).

It has simpler math, less book keeping in game, easier to balance encounters, and characters are no so heavily encumbered by disadvantages. Even the actual game play is cleaner.


Oh yes, there is a learning curve. I concede that. Of course everyone glosses over the fact that any new game is going to have a learning curve. Yes, Hero is steeper than most, but a Masters in Mathematics is not required.

I agree that Mutants & Masterminds is easier to learn and plays very well for a Super Hero campaign. I would go so far as to say that M&M plays very well for any cinematic campaign. At the same time, I would say that Hero is more versatile and allows for more detail. So it really comes down to preference.


And what you see as cleaner could also be interpreted as bland.

Sorry if that sounds all defensive. I really do like M&M. I guess I am just still sensitive about anti-Hero sentiment I perceive.

The Exchange

I have to add that I hated math in JR. High and only bothered to learn it because of the Hero system. As with most games it is not so much the rules but the Game master and other players that makes it enjoyable. Hero System is one of the most versatile games that has ever been invented and is not that hard to design a character for once you learn the basics. Heck I can make a Hero character faster at times then I can a 3.5 but I'm a math junkie anymore so maybe I am just an aberration.

Liberty's Edge

My impression has generally been that M&M can do about 95% of what Hero can do with about 50% of the effort. It is, in fact, possible to be extremely specific in the way powers work in M&M - most of the examples mentioned so far in Hero are things that M&M can do as well, even if most people don't typically bother.


M&M does not bother with the details. Which is exactly why I think of it as Hero lite.


Rathendar wrote:

Like Jester, i have tons of HERO system product myself and have played it for hmm..over a decade. If you have any questions on ways to implement or wish any feedback on your world building Eileen, feel free to throw up a thread and i am sure others in addition to myself would be happy to help.

Happy World Building =)

Thanks for the support rathendar. I'm throwing up a thread not. I've developed enough information that feedback would be well received. Now where to put it...hmmmm....

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