Abandoning the fans?


4th Edition

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Grand Lodge

David Marks wrote:
Dragon 24, Sorceror's Scroll, Gary Gygax, pg 18...

Alright...

But I still have no interest in playing 4e...

Healing Surge was but one rule that rubbed me the wrong way...

There are quite a few more that keep me from wanting to play 4e. More than just the few I have mentioned on this board...

Sorry, that's just the way I feel on the matter...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-


KaeYoss wrote:
Seldriss wrote:


I don't think WotC are abandonning their fans.
Hey, as a matter of fact do WotC have actual fans ? This is a company
I know Paizo does. But then, they behave more like a bunch of great guys than a faceless corporation.

QFT!


Digitalelf wrote:


Alright...

But I still have no interest in playing 4e...

Healing Surge was but one rule that rubbed me the wrong way...

There are quite a few more that keep me from wanting to play 4e. More than just the few I have mentioned on this board...

Sorry, that's just the way I feel on the matter...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

Well that's fine. Not everyone moves with every edition switch. Heck, I think Blackdragon here still plays 2E, and I'm sure there are people who still play 1E and even 0DnD. What edition is Dragonsfoot devoted to again?

Perhaps you'll like Pathfinder better if you'd like to stick with a 3E version, since I don't think they'll be getting much support otherwise. :)

The Exchange

ShinHakkaider wrote:

I havent't lost perspective. I plan on staying with 3.5 / Pathfinder or my houseruled combo.

If that somehow makes me less worthy of being called a gamer then sobeit.

Who said anything about you being less worthy of being called a gamer?

If someone comes here and says "I don't want to play 4e because it does not suit my style of play" then they have expressed their preference and that's cool.

The people that have lost perspective (not you by the way) are those that take their discomfort with 4e and their preference for 3e and turn it into an issue of BIBLICAL proportions.

You would think a plague has been loosed on the gaming world with the publication of 4e.

Why does anyone feel the need to come here and justify their choice not to play 4e by BASHING those of us that just want to play the darn game.

This whole thread started because of the over exaggerated claims of abandonment. I don't deel abandoned when I go into a 7-11 and can't get my favorite flavor Slurpee and therefore must choose my second favorite flavor - or *gasp* not buy one on that visit. I do not picket the place until they load up the machine with my chosen flavor.

I respect anyone that gives 4e an honest and unfiltered look and then decides to stick with 3e. But so many of the objections are clearly ill-informed and quite over-stated.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
crosswiredmind wrote:


I respect anyone that gives 4e an honest and unfiltered look and then decides to stick with 3e. But so many of the objections are clearly ill-informed and quite over-stated.

Some may be ill informed, but how can an objection really be over-stated? If the difference is important to you, it's important to you. Just because you think it's overstated, doesn't make it so in the eyes of the person raising the objection.

The Exchange

Bill Dunn wrote:
Actually, it does mean that they are abandoning some fans... the fans who don't want the game to change in the way that the game is changing. That's what a lot of us have been saying and you keep denying.

No. Abandonment is willful and malicious. Knowing that some will not follow your product or service when it changes to suit the market is not willful and malicious. WotC is trying to make the best choice possible for its business model.

I do not feel abandoned because Paizo has decided to stick with the 3.5 OGL. They made that choice to sui their business model. It does mean that I am less likely to buy Paizo products but I certainly do not feel abandoned.

Bill Dunn wrote:
There are plenty of us not afraid of change. The game changes with every rule supplement and splatbook that comes out and, still, many of us buy them. The question is whether or not we like the nature of the changes. I happen to not like the nature of most of the 4e changes and I prefer it if you do not spin that like I'm insecure or something.

I don't see you as being in the "strident opposition". Your posts have always been well reasoned and rational. That is not the case for most of the people in the 4e forum that are reducing the signal to noise ratio. They use far less reason and are far more likely to be truly ill-informed.

The Exchange

Bill Dunn wrote:
crosswiredmind wrote:


I respect anyone that gives 4e an honest and unfiltered look and then decides to stick with 3e. But so many of the objections are clearly ill-informed and quite over-stated.
Some may be ill informed, but how can an objection really be over-stated? If the difference is important to you, it's important to you. Just because you think it's overstated, doesn't make it so in the eyes of the person raising the objection.

Many months ago someone posted that WotC had killed D&D simply because you no longer roll for hit points when you level. The tone and tenor of the post was quite over the top and melodramatic.


mindgamez wrote:
The online effort is pathetic. Nothing has even been posted since early may.

I don't know what you're talking about. New articles are posted for each ezine about every other day. Maybe you're not looking hard enough (or don't want to).


Digitalelf wrote:
DudeMonkey wrote:
make an effort to really grok 4e
Why do I have to really grok 4e? Why can't I just not like the concept of a given rule (healing surge, to flog a dead horse)?

That's not the basis of an informed decision. These things really DO work well together and people spent 40+ hours per week, every week for YEARS, thinking about these things. You seem like a smart fellow, but I find it difficult to believe that you have a solid foundation on which to make an intelligent decision based on hearsay and not liking a few concepts.

I thought they were ridiculous when I heard about them, too. I bought into the "this is like WoW" rhetoric, which turned out to be a fallacious idea. Once I started to really grab hold of the IDEA behind 4e, things made a lot more sense. I don't have to love the idea of healing surges, but it sure as heck makes the game run smoother.

The Exchange

DudeMonkey wrote:
Digitalelf wrote:
DudeMonkey wrote:
make an effort to really grok 4e
Why do I have to really grok 4e? Why can't I just not like the concept of a given rule (healing surge, to flog a dead horse)?

That's not the basis of an informed decision. These things really DO work well together and people spent 40+ hours per week, every week for YEARS, thinking about these things. You seem like a smart fellow, but I find it difficult to believe that you have a solid foundation on which to make an intelligent decision based on hearsay and not liking a few concepts.

I thought they were ridiculous when I heard about them, too. I bought into the "this is like WoW" rhetoric, which turned out to be a fallacious idea. Once I started to really grab hold of the IDEA behind 4e, things made a lot more sense. I don't have to love the idea of healing surges, but it sure as heck makes the game run smoother.

The dude didn't compromise his principles and scruples like you, so you decide that his reason is flawed? So if someone doesn't toss out his principles because you did then you say "You seem like a smart fellow, but..." inferring that he is less intelligent for his decision. Good job.

Wow, and you really seem like a smart fellow......

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

The whole HP as morale thing is indeed fairly new to D&D as of 4thE. Yes, hit points have been more than just physical damage (in that 8 hp shaves a few hairs off a high level fighter, but cuts a commoner), but they've always been something that took rest or magic to restore, not a few inspiring words.

HP as morale doesn't bug me much, but it isn't how hp have always worked. Trying to lump morale in with the luck/toughness/sixth sense approach of 1E doesn't quite work, since morale wasn't ever in that list. And that's why in 1st - 3rd ed, you don't get hp back from an uplifting speech - though you might get some temps!

The Exchange

Russ Taylor wrote:
HP as morale doesn't bug me much, but it isn't how hp have always worked.

True. The mechanics have never matched the fluff. The fluff always tried to compensate for a clearly unrealistic system by claiming that hit points were an abstraction and should not be considered to be just wounds.

The reason I like the mechanical changes in 4e is that they have taken the claim that hit points are more than just wounds and provided mechanics to back that up.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Russ Taylor wrote:

The whole HP as morale thing is indeed fairly new to D&D as of 4thE. Yes, hit points have been more than just physical damage (in that 8 hp shaves a few hairs off a high level fighter, but cuts a commoner), but they've always been something that took rest or magic to restore, not a few inspiring words.

You could say that, thanks to the ability to take healing surges during the 5-min rest between encounters, rest still allows a character to regain hit points. It's just that the scales are significantly changed.


crosswiredmind wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:

I havent't lost perspective. I plan on staying with 3.5 / Pathfinder or my houseruled combo.

If that somehow makes me less worthy of being called a gamer then sobeit.

<SNIP>

You would think a plague has been loosed on the gaming world with the publication of 4e.

Why does anyone feel the need to come here and justify their choice not to play 4e by BASHING those of us that just want to play the darn game.

This whole thread started because of the over exaggerated claims of abandonment. I don't deel abandoned when I go into a 7-11 and can't get my favorite flavor Slurpee and therefore must choose my second favorite flavor - or *gasp* not buy one on that visit. I do not picket the place until they load up the machine with my chosen flavor.

I respect anyone that gives 4e an honest and unfiltered look and then decides to stick with 3e. But so many of the objections are clearly ill-informed and quite over-stated.

I believe it is a common, human reaction. They come across something they truly enjoy, often a hobby of some sort, and it gradually becomes very 'personal' for them. Once something becomes personal, it's very human to react negatively, even over-react negatively, when it is changed -- change becomes a threat.

I know it's hard ... but it's far better to actively avoid making any hobby, even this one, 'personal.' Because change is going to happen. It is as inevitable as the rising and falling of the tides, as the setting of the sun at the end of each day. No man or woman can stand against it for long. Get a little 'dispassion' ... a little 'perspective' ... and maybe learn to ride the crests of the waves of change.

And we'll all get by.

Scarab Sages

crosswiredmind wrote:

I have heard from a more than a few people here that Wizards has abandoned their fans with 4e.

How is that even vaguely possible given the dramatic pace of sales - outstripping even WotC's predictions.

The implication that 4e does not appeal to existing players is not born out by the sales figures an the general enthusiasm on many online fora (Paizo being a clear exception). Heck - my FLGS has a long preorder list even though they are not discounting the books. (...)

Just because a number of individuals here on these boards believes that WotC has abandoned its fanbase does not mean that they have. Sales of 4e are set to surpass 3e and the game has not even been released.

I don't think that's just a number of individuals on these boards, sadly.

This is one instance I think where we should carefully consider how 4E has been introduced to the public, and the fans of 3E in particular, as opposed to the contents of the game itself.

WotC's marketing has been nothing short of insulting in that regards by basically saying to its fan "the game you've been playing for some time and buying from us is so broken it's actually the antithesis of fun. Here, have our fourth edition. You'll have fun, now. Really!"

This was pitiful.

Cumulate this with the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon mags, the DDI which many older gamers are reluctant to, and you've got a recipe for rebellion from a sizable portion of the fan base.

Now, take some of the changes introduced in 4E itself which are not understood as anything but change for the sake of change for some fans, like the exclusion of the Great Wheel, the modification of elves, the half orc and gnome not there, and you get even more of a response.

It's not surprising at all, really.

As for sales figures, fans of the game will buy the game because they want to know what it is, even if they have strong negative feelings about it. This does not mean that 4E will be widely played, though. Give it some time. If supplements don't sale well, if we see hints of modifications to the system, even a .5 edition of sorts (they would never call it that way because they said there wouldn't be a .5, but that wouldn't stop them from creating one named differently if it helps sales), changes in design direction, then you can bet the game is not as successful as WotC thought it would be.


First, let me say I plan to play 4E. I also plan to play Pathfinder and also run 1E AD&D games from time to time as I've always done. So I'm not anti-4E by any means.

But the pre-sales figures aren't going to tell us much about staying power. Sure, it's nice to have those sales, no doubt about it. But I know a couple of people personally (and this is purely anecdotal) who pre-ordered the 4E books and now that they have them have little or no interest in playing 4E.

We won't know for a few months how much staying power 4E has. I suspect it's going to do fairly well, both because of the brand, enough switchover from existing players, and attraction of new players. I ran a 4E demo on game day, and 3 of 6 players I had were brand new to D&D and I think they were definitely won over by the game. Two of them bought the core books then and there and the other guy was pretty excited about it.

But we won't know the final verdict on 4E for a while yet.

Needless to say, the same is true of Pathfinder and continued 3.X support.


Fake Healer wrote:

The dude didn't compromise his principles and scruples like you, so you decide that his reason is flawed? So if someone doesn't toss out his principles because you did then you say "You seem like a smart fellow, but..." inferring that he is less intelligent for his decision. Good job.
Wow, and you really seem like a smart fellow......

You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.

OR

It's a game, not public office. Let's all play. I play 3.5 and 4E and like both! It's all good!

Scarab Sages

Steerpike7 wrote:
Sure, it's nice to have those sales, no doubt about it.

To be fair, selling core books is the point of the marketing as it relates to D&D. If core books sell, that's the real bottom line, since supplements are, in any case or figure, selling way less than them. That's why 4E is moving towards a "one PHB, MM, DMG a year" model. Everything is core. Everything is supposed to sell at least better.

We'll see.

I suspect it will be successful, not because more people will buy the supplements, but because hardcore fans will buy more books.


Supporting the idea it's a different set of rules.
Instead of spells they have powers.
You can make a Paladin simply by making a fighter with lawful good alignment and giving him some cleric powers.
The results are the same, but you have to learn a new game.
The three core books don't have enough powers per class.
The Monster Manual doesn't have enough Elementals.
Not even the core 4, Earth, Water, Air, and Fire.
Not enough Demons, Devils, or Angels.
Only 2 true Golems.

I bought the Monster Manual so I could understand the Dungeons of Dread minitures.
Mu friend Charlie bought the Players Handbook and DMG so he could tell me "It's a different game."
Note that we had Borders Coupons worth 30% off.
The second book Charlie had a 20% coupon and 15$ Borders bucks.
How many people are actually buying it to play it?
Some may be buying it to play it when the rest of the game comes out.

The Exchange

Goth Guru wrote:

How many people are actually buying it to play it?

Some may be buying it to play it when the rest of the game comes out.

Well, of the four core groups associated with my FLGS three are switching to 4e. Sales of 4e at the shop have been quite steady and the RPGA group that runs 3 to 5 tables a month at the store plan to play the Living Realms.


I'm finally going to start up a campaign later this summer, after I move my fiancee up here to live with me, making our long distance relationship not so long-distance, which will free up a lot of my time. I've read 2 of the 3 core books through and through, as well as all the 4e DDI articles. This weekend, I'm investing in more dice (probably four more sets) and some more Dungeon Tiles. I figure by late August, I will have a handful of adventures from Dungeon and WoTC that I can use, plus I'm going to start getting my proposals together for some freelance stuff, so I'll probably have some homebrew stuff laying around. I can't wait.


OK. Just piping in here again. Seems this is still an ongoing topic.

I attended the D&D games day this year specifically for a chance to give 4E a try. Honestly, I kind of like the new system, although a lot of us old time players sat around and discussed the various differences between 3.x and 4e. The discussions were pretty calm and thought provoking, especially when we got the old and new crowds together.

Of course, we had the people who claimed that that roleplaying moments just didn't seem to be there after playing the demo. As I explained to him, the roleplaying wasn't there because everyone was playing a new system and were trying to work out the basics. That and about half the members at each table were new to the whole hobby rather than just to 4e.

Imagine that... new people at the tables. Hmmm...

Also, I saw more female players at this year's Games day than I have seen at the last three. Interest was high, even amongst those that said they hated the system because of rumors and such. They still stayed and watched, and were even surprised enough on occasion to say something like 'That's pretty cool!'.

As I said elsewhere, changing someone's mind about something is a hard thing to do. In another post here, I saw someone mention that reading the rules will leave many with a 'This is a dumbed down version' mentality. Of course, once they play it, their opinions seem to change a little.

Also, most people have only read the Player's Handbook, which holds most of the rules for combat as well as character creation. In all honesty, combat is where most of the rules are needed, simply because we don't want things to degenerate into a school yard 'I hit you! No you didn't!' type of back and forth. But there are things in there to help role play, and in the Dungeon Master's Guide are more ideas for role play as well as how to involve the players in role play.

As I explained to the gentleman who was complaining that the role play has been removed from the game, he was only playing in a demo. If the GM wants to run a game never using combat, it's still possible. However, combat is more fun and honestly seemed a little smoother now from my experience at the table.

I still don't think WotC has abandoned anything. They have just tried to make things more accessible and interesting to those who may have wanted to play but were intimidated by earlier versions.

But, once again, this is just my opinion, and I know many here won't agree to it. However, even if you are not ever going to use 4e, I suggest everyone go and play a demo with an open mind to see the differences.

You may be surprised.

Liberty's Edge

Well, they definitely didn't abandon the US military--WotC donated at least one (some larger installations got two or three) 4e core set to every overseas MWR (that's a military recreation center located on overseas bases), along with all kinds of other game paraphernalia--like multiple sets of dice. A very, very cool gesture.

Dark Archive

OP: From my own FLGS there was only -two- 4E sets preordered. I was not one of them.

The Exchange

mortellan wrote:
OP: From my own FLGS there was only -two- 4E sets preordered. I was not one of them.

My local only had 6 or 7 sets preordered not including me - I forgot to actually preorder. That being said there have been a steady stream of former Amazon customers coming by to pick up the books after canceling their online orders.

The Exchange

Andrew Turner wrote:
Well, they definitely didn't abandon the US military--WotC donated at least one (some larger installations got two or three) 4e core set to every overseas MWR (that's a military recreation center located on overseas bases), along with all kinds of other game paraphernalia--like multiple sets of dice. A very, very cool gesture.

Very cool indeed..

Scarab Sages

Keoki wrote:
mindgamez wrote:
The online effort is pathetic. Nothing has even been posted since early may.
I don't know what you're talking about. New articles are posted for each ezine about every other day. Maybe you're not looking hard enough (or don't want to).

3 dungeon articles (not all adventures) and 4 dragon articles in all of May sounds like his point was accurate to me.

It is fair to say that the offering so far has been pathetic, as each ezine languished for most of the preview period. And lets all remember that when the print mags were canned, Wizards stated that it would be a full preview. What we got was a haphazard pile of crap, poorly formated, and thin on content.

Since the launch in June, they've had a more regular schedule, seemingly putting up a weekly dungeon "something or other" and a couple of dragon articles per week. What I suspect is that the print schedule for a typical non-launch issue will be somewhere between the disaster that the preview was and the heavy print load we're seeing this month.

Even many 4e fans view the online mags as a train wreck. Hopefully they can salvage them as time goes on, but I for one am not confident in anything "electronic" done by Wotc.


underling wrote:
Keoki wrote:
mindgamez wrote:
The online effort is pathetic. Nothing has even been posted since early may.
I don't know what you're talking about. New articles are posted for each ezine about every other day. Maybe you're not looking hard enough (or don't want to).

3 dungeon articles (not all adventures) and 4 dragon articles in all of May sounds like his point was accurate to me.

It is fair to say that the offering so far has been pathetic, as each ezine languished for most of the preview period. And lets all remember that when the print mags were canned, Wizards stated that it would be a full preview. What we got was a haphazard pile of crap, poorly formated, and thin on content.

Since the launch in June, they've had a more regular schedule, seemingly putting up a weekly dungeon "something or other" and a couple of dragon articles per week. What I suspect is that the print schedule for a typical non-launch issue will be somewhere between the disaster that the preview was and the heavy print load we're seeing this month.

Even many 4e fans view the online mags as a train wreck. Hopefully they can salvage them as time goes on, but I for one am not confident in anything "electronic" done by Wotc.

Well I think the articles are awesome. In fact a lot of people like the electronic format, and the depth of the articles. And I don't see how this is much different from the print version of Dragon and Dungeon, I mean it's some articles about gaming and optional rules, how's that different?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Panda-s1 wrote:
underling wrote:
Keoki wrote:
mindgamez wrote:
The online effort is pathetic. Nothing has even been posted since early may.
I don't know what you're talking about. New articles are posted for each ezine about every other day. Maybe you're not looking hard enough (or don't want to).

3 dungeon articles (not all adventures) and 4 dragon articles in all of May sounds like his point was accurate to me.

It is fair to say that the offering so far has been pathetic, as each ezine languished for most of the preview period. And lets all remember that when the print mags were canned, Wizards stated that it would be a full preview. What we got was a haphazard pile of crap, poorly formated, and thin on content.

Since the launch in June, they've had a more regular schedule, seemingly putting up a weekly dungeon "something or other" and a couple of dragon articles per week. What I suspect is that the print schedule for a typical non-launch issue will be somewhere between the disaster that the preview was and the heavy print load we're seeing this month.

Even many 4e fans view the online mags as a train wreck. Hopefully they can salvage them as time goes on, but I for one am not confident in anything "electronic" done by Wotc.

Well I think the articles are awesome. In fact a lot of people like the electronic format, and the depth of the articles. And I don't see how this is much different from the print version of Dragon and Dungeon, I mean it's some articles about gaming and optional rules, how's that different?

I believe the real question here is not whether good or not but whether they are good enough to pay money for when it is time for them to start chargong for it. Especialy since thete is still a lot of confusion on whether you can get the magazines seperatly or have to get them with the wholee DDI sunscription.

As for diffrence its a whole lot harder to read a laptop on the can than a paper magazine


Kevin Mack wrote:


I believe the real question here is not whether good or not but whether they are good enough to pay money for when it is time for them to start chargong for it. Especialy since thete is still a lot of confusion on whether you can get the magazines seperatly or have to get them with the wholee DDI sunscription.

As for diffrence its a whole lot harder to read a laptop on the can than a paper magazine

The last I read from Kevin Troop (the guy currently in charge of the DDI) is that you'll be able to buy Dragon and Dungeon separately from the DDI subscription. Although obviously, until they're making people pay, things can (and likely will) change.

Personally, even if you have to use the DDI pricing announced previously, I'd be willing to pay $10 a month (the price it comes to if you bought a yearly plan) for the current content we've been seeing. The new landscaped format is very nice for reading on a computer, although it is somewhat less great for printing (but then, with all the artwork and everything, I wouldn't really want to print these anyway ...)

Strangely (and this may be TMI) I like using my laptop in the bathroom more than reading a physical book. Books are made of paper and are thus fare poorly to moisture. If my laptop gets wet I can just wipe it down and it'll be fine. :)

Scarab Sages

David Marks wrote:


Strangely (and this may be TMI) I like using my laptop in the bathroom more than reading a physical book. Books are made of paper and are thus fare poorly to moisture. If my laptop gets wet I can just wipe it down and it'll be fine. :)

Ummm.... electronics fare worse with moisture than paper. As for the quoted passage above, I am still trying to fathom what the horrifying source of the moisture could be.

On second thought, some things in life aren't worth knowing. shudder.

Scarab Sages

Panda-s1 wrote:


Well I think the articles are awesome. In fact a lot of people like the electronic format, and the depth of the articles. And I don't see how this is much different from the print version of Dragon and Dungeon, I mean it's some articles about gaming and optional rules, how's that different?

that's a fair point. What I was stating was to clarify an earlier post about the poor quality of the early offerings. The print mags were canned about a year ago to make way for a full scale preview of the online versions.

Then, when they were released, it was without formatting, and on a sporadic schedule. Whole months went by with only a single entry for either mag. then it was announced that the 'free preview' wasn't a preview of the mags themselves, but an alpha of what they might like to do once 4e came out. Oh, and they'd be bi-monthly until launch. Ohh Ohh, and the monthly compilations just evaporated without an explanation after the first one. Not a very promising start.

While many of the articles were nice, when compared to the mature and polished print mags they were replacing, Wotc effort was laughable. When it is considered that they knew of this change before anyone else & had time to prepare, this was not a heartening sign.

I will say that this month's official content looks a lot more polished, so maybe they have things together now. We'll see if they can maintain the pace & quality.


The PostMonster General wrote:
I believe the real question here is not whether good or not but whether they are good enough to pay money for when it is time for them to start chargong for it

Well, I have the choice between 2-3 adventures + 4-5 (6-10 pages) articles per month (some written by Nicolas Loge) + a full searchable compendium of rules + (eventualy) a character builder, all of this for 10$ per month Or I could buy 1 Paizo adventure module (in a system that I will have to convert to 4E) for 13.99$ (more with the shipping)... The choice is quit simple for most customers...


etrigan wrote:
The PostMonster General wrote:
I believe the real question here is not whether good or not but whether they are good enough to pay money for when it is time for them to start chargong for it
Well, I have the choice between 2-3 adventures + 4-5 (6-10 pages) articles per month (some written by Nicolas Loge) + a full searchable compendium of rules + (eventualy) a character builder, all of this for 10$ per month Or I could buy 1 Paizo adventure module (in a system that I will have to convert to 4E) for 13.99$ (more with the shipping)... The choice is quit simple for most customers...

Its all about the quality. Paizo's is second to none.


etrigan wrote:
Well, I have the choice between 2-3 adventures + 4-5 (6-10 pages) articles per month (some written by Nicolas Loge) + a full searchable compendium of rules + (eventualy) a character builder, all of this for 10$ per month Or I could buy 1 Paizo adventure module (in a system that I will have to convert to 4E) for 13.99$ (more with the shipping)... The choice is quit simple for most customers...

For what it's worth, you have the promise of those things -- from a company that has arguably demonstrated a notable disregard for deadlines and professionalism of late.

To be fair, the 4e content has thus far been excellent. But the very spotty performance preceding it damages my faith in their long-term reliability.


David Marks wrote:
Strangely (and this may be TMI) I like using my laptop in the bathroom more than reading a physical book. Books are made of paper and are thus fare poorly to moisture. If my laptop gets wet I can just wipe it down and it'll be fine. :)

Most definitely TMI :o

:P


crosswiredmind wrote:


My local only had 6 or 7 sets preordered not including me - I forgot to actually preorder. That being said there have been a steady stream of former Amazon customers coming by to pick up the books after canceling their online orders.

I love reading your stuff CWM. We've butted heads a few times but I've always admired your civility, even if I don't always agree with your opinions. But after reading this, I have to ask two questions:

1. How can one of the biggest 4E supporters on these boards FORGET to pre-order the books he's spent months championing?!?!?!?! I've gotta know...

2. This is the more serious question, because after reading so many of your posts, I believe what I'm about to ask is what you would ask if a 3.5 supporter made a similar statement: How do you know "there have been a steady stream of former Amazon customers coming by to pick up the books after canceling their online orders"? Are you, or your FLGS employees, asking everyone who comes in "Did you cancel a pre-order on Amazon?" Or is it totally anecdotal? What qualifies as a "steady stream"?

You've called out many a poster and asked them to back up some claim they've made. I'd like to respectfully request you do the same.


Jeremy MacDonald wrote:
Its all about the quality. Paizo's is second to none.

Less than 2 years ago, I could have this same quality with the Dungeon Magazine with 3 adventures modules for less (9.99$ CAD)... At least most of the time one of the three adventure was interesting and usable in my campaign... Now I have to pay four time this amount (around 45$) for the same result... How do you explain this increase in cost? A nice rigid cover? Color interior? Gaz cost increase?

I don't argue that Paizo don't produce quality stuff, but does it really worth that much more money when compare to the WoC online magazines (where you can find some articles written by the same writer that write Pathfinder module)? Can anyone argue that 10$ is too much for what they have offer so far (since June 6)?


underling wrote:


Ummm.... electronics fare worse with moisture than paper. As for the quoted passage above, I am still trying to fathom what the horrifying source of the moisture could be.

On second thought, some things in life aren't worth knowing. shudder.

Edit: You know, I think we're better off letting this thread of discussion drop. *cough*


etrigan wrote:
Jeremy MacDonald wrote:
Its all about the quality. Paizo's is second to none.

Less than 2 years ago, I could have this same quality with the Dungeon Magazine with 3 adventures modules for less (9.99$ CAD)... At least most of the time one of the three adventure was interesting and usable in my campaign... Now I have to pay four time this amount (around 45$) for the same result... How do you explain this increase in cost? A nice rigid cover? Color interior? Gaz cost increase?

I don't argue that Paizo don't produce quality stuff, but does it really worth that much more money when compare to the WoC online magazines (where you can find some articles written by the same writer that write Pathfinder module)? Can anyone argue that 10$ is too much for what they have offer so far (since June 6)?

Not to slam on our gracious hosts here, but I do agree with etrigan that the jump in price from Dungeon to Pathfinder took me by surprise.

If the quality of Dragon and Dungeon persist, I'd be happy to pay $10 a month. :)


etrigan wrote:
Jeremy MacDonald wrote:
Its all about the quality. Paizo's is second to none.
Less than 2 years ago, I could have this same quality with the Dungeon Magazine with 3 adventures modules for less (9.99$ CAD)... At least most of the time one of the three adventure was interesting and usable in my campaign... Now I have to pay four time this amount (around 45$) for the same result... How do you explain this increase in cost? A nice rigid cover? Color interior? Gaz cost increase?

Your paying $45 friggen dollars? I live in Toronto and I'm sure none of the local FLGs charge friggen $45. You could try a subscription and probably reduce it even more then getting it off your FLGS. Only reason I don't is that I own a bookstore - I buy these from a distributor.

Anyway these things cost more 'cause they don't have Dungeons massive advertising subsidy. You never payed for Dungeon - not really, the advertisers paid for Dungeon. On the other hand there is no advertising in a Paizo AP booklet, so your getting pretty close to twice the content.

Did I mention the quality is absolutely top notch? Oh and we have Logue beating sessions, their great. What you do is you take an adventure he's written and you complain about plot inconsistencies.

That said I'm not telling you to forgo DDI, I'll probably subscribe myself.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
etrigan wrote:
Jeremy MacDonald wrote:
Its all about the quality. Paizo's is second to none.

Less than 2 years ago, I could have this same quality with the Dungeon Magazine with 3 adventures modules for less (9.99$ CAD)... At least most of the time one of the three adventure was interesting and usable in my campaign... Now I have to pay four time this amount (around 45$) for the same result... How do you explain this increase in cost? A nice rigid cover? Color interior? Gaz cost increase?

I don't argue that Paizo don't produce quality stuff, but does it really worth that much more money when compare to the WoC online magazines (where you can find some articles written by the same writer that write Pathfinder module)? Can anyone argue that 10$ is too much for what they have offer so far (since June 6)?

Not sure how your getting charged $45 dollars since mine only costs about £30 dollars and of that a good chunk of it is in shipping costs since I have to get it deliverd straight to my house in the UK.

If its the price in your LGS then I would say they are overcharging you

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just checked the price in the products page and it says $19.99


Well, I guess I was not too clear in my preceding post:

I said that 3 adventures modules now cost me around 45$ CAD (13$ each + shipping cost) when it use to cost me 10$ for about the same thing with the Dungeon magazine.

And for those who didn't understand, I'm not bashing Nicolas Logue... to the contrary... Logue is one of the best author of module and articles.. What I was trying to say is how can someone complain about the quality of WoC dragons articles when half of them have been written by him since June 6? I can get the same author and quality for only 10$ now...

EDIT: Oups... I guess Jeremy Mac Donald was not thinking I was bashing Logue but rather enjoy the bashing session that happen after every Lodge publish adventure module on this board... Hope Nicolas is enjoying them too... :-)


I posted this elsewhere, but thought it would be interesting here:

In 2004 Ryan Dancey (Vice President of WotC) stated that he believed the failure of TSR was due to

Ryan Dancey wrote:
"...a near total inability to listen to its customers, hear what they were saying, and make changes to make those customers happy."

It would be a cruel irony if Dancey's words turned out to be prophetic for WotC.


Andrew Turner wrote:
Well, they definitely didn't abandon the US military--WotC donated at least one (some larger installations got two or three) 4e core set to every overseas MWR (that's a military recreation center located on overseas bases), along with all kinds of other game paraphernalia--like multiple sets of dice. A very, very cool gesture.

Good to hear they are supporting the troops. Deployment is a lot like jail time, and there are often long boring stretches punctuated by short adrenaline-soaked ones. I know some of the best RPGing I ever did was in uniform. Plus people understood combat tactics so much better!


crosswiredmind wrote:

I have heard from a more than a few people here that Wizards has abandoned their fans with 4e.

How is that even vaguely possible given the dramatic pace of sales - outstripping even WotC's predictions.

Purchase does not equal satisfied customer.

I bought 5 x PH + DMG + MM 4.0 within 5 mins of the stores opening in Denmark for me and my gaming group. 3 hours later I realized that I had been "abandoned", and I have not really opened the books after that.

We decided to be "early adapters" this time, to get the most out of it (we had been a year or so late on 3.0 and 3.5). This was done out of confidence to Wizards, seeing how they had improved from 3.0 to 3.5, and we where expecting something like a "3.6", where conversion was an option. It is not really an option for us, the new system simply does not support our campaign and characters that we have been building over 10+ years.

I am extremely disappointed, and thought of burning the new books and posting it on youtube, but I might sell them or give them away to a 12-year old who would buy it anyway, that way Wizard won't get another sell.

Unless off course people want to make a huge "4.0" bonfire and put it on youtube... might get some peoples attention...

I really like what I have seen so far with Pathfinder, and it is the only working solution for our campaign right now.

Go Paizo!


Patrick Curtin wrote:
Andrew Turner wrote:
Well, they definitely didn't abandon the US military--WotC donated at least one (some larger installations got two or three) 4e core set to every overseas MWR (that's a military recreation center located on overseas bases), along with all kinds of other game paraphernalia--like multiple sets of dice. A very, very cool gesture.
Good to hear they are supporting the troops. Deployment is a lot like jail time, and there are often long boring stretches punctuated by short adrenaline-soaked ones. I know some of the best RPGing I ever did was in uniform. Plus people understood combat tactics so much better!

Indeed, WotC has always been pretty cool about supporting the troops. I remember them sending over a bunch of 3.5 stuff too, when it debuted (I think it was the 3.5 debut that had them sending over cases ...)


I'm not quite sure that I would characterize it as "abandonment" (although there is an argument for that) but there was a point where Hasbro made it pretty clear that they held 3rd edition and those customers who played it in disdain.

From the fake french guy in the intro video, to talking in podcasts about "putting a bullet in the head" of some semi-iconic monsters, to sneering that it only took "30 years" to change the magic/level mechanic, to telling us directly that some things were changed to make them "fun" (implying we were mistaken had we regarded them as fun before) and on and on.

Abandoned? I dunno.

Disrespected? Most certainly.

And unfortunately, that disrespect shown to their loyal customers has colored my impression of 4th edition ever since. Hasbro really needed to WOW me (pardon the pun) with this new edition.

Simply they fell far short.


Bear wrote:
From the fake french guy in the intro video, to talking in podcasts about "putting a bullet in the head" of some semi-iconic monsters, to sneering that it only took "30 years" to change the magic/level mechanic, to telling us directly that some things were changed to make them "fun" (implying we were mistaken had we regarded them as fun before) and on and on.

This video really speaks to their PR incompetence.

Among other things, the contempt it showed for their own rules doesn't inspire confidence in any additional rules they might publish.

What happened to 3.x being groundbreaking? Were they just lying?

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