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So what would be some examples of the kinds of adventures you'd like to see in 4E?See - I love RuneQuest. To me the gold standard is Griffin Mountain and the exploration of an untamed and extremely dangerous wilderness. I also loved Apple Lane, Borderlands, and the whole Pavis/Big Rubble thing. I also loved third edition works like Sun County and River of Cradles.
What ties them all together is that they each present a wide variety of situations and locations. The Wizards adventures, so far, have been crawl and more crawl. I did enough crawl from 1975-1982 when AD&D was my game of choice. Now I dig more variety and sophistication. I don't mind the odd trip underground - just not as the dominant theme.
Oh, and for a more contemporary source of great adventures - WFRP. The Paths of the Damned trilogy is fantastic as are many of the small episodes in Plundered Vaults.
In LFR I loved all of the first seven mods. They all had a great feel, lots of roleplay, and the crawls were minimalist.
chaosium had some very nice scenarios, for sure...
and warhammer rocked...
and, yeah, dungeon crawls were great...when i was 11...
So what would be some examples of the kinds of adventures you'd like to see in 4E?
First of all, thank you for asking!
My biggest challenge with RaR was that there was nothing about it particularly that grabbed me. It didn't make me want to start a brand new adventure path and nothing about it felt epic or mysterious.
It feels natural to compare it to Burnt Offerings, in which the initial raid by the goblins had unique character, and then dealt with some interesting storylines, like the poor family attacked by the goblin, a boar's hunt, an investigation at a glassworks, the appearance of the sin runes, a unique background for the main villian, and a very flavorful goblin tribe. There is an air of mystery, flavor, and uniqueness and the sense of the epic. I didn't really feel that way after RaR - it felt like a typical dungeon crawl. You mention Life's Bazaar, but that was very unique and had its own character.
I don't care for dungeon crawl myself, mostly because it begins to feel like, "Here we go again, into the dungeon to face a bunch of random monsters." I like each encounter to really mean something for the overall story and plot, not just an encuse to gain more XP and treasure.
But to you original question - examples are Burnt Offering, Dragons of Despair, Scourge of the Slavelords, and Thunderspire Labyrinth (a dungeon crawl yes, but the setting is exciting enough to make it fun). Strong stories and settings, unique encounters, and the world comes to life. I like Heathen and Dark Heart of Mithrendain well enough, although they have some weaknesses.
My two cp.
In a Dungeon issue way back, there was a top 30 adventures of all time article in which several top designers (many of whom work at WotC and Paizo) were polled. Most of those adventures were old school 1st ed, including the top 5.Despite the fact that I'm not sure I agree with the list, doesn't the abundance of the old school in this prominent list make them a worthy aspiration?
With all the arguments against 4e because it is ignoring tradition, I'm surprised people would be unhappy that the adventures reflect something more old school.
I don't think the theme really carries through. We can love and respect some 1E adventures and not feel that they represent great gaming today.
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First Kudos to you for reading these boards and asking these questions!
I also think that judging an adventure path by its first adventure may be a bit harsh. Life's Bazaar was just a big dungeon crawl. Now, Life's Bazaar did set up the whole city of Cauldron, and of course the Whispering Cairn set up Diamond Lake; for Rescue at Rivenroar, Brindol was already set up by Red Hand of Doom.
Although Red Hand of Doom is a good adventure, not every DM has it and can refer to it to describe Brindol (I do not have it, but read through it in my FLGS). IMO RaR would have been much better from a DMs point of view if we had some more infos on Brindol. Some interesting NPCs to work with.
I also don't think RaR gets enough credit for what it does do in unique ways: it has a series of linked encounters that are part of a village raid, and it has a puzzle surrounding the captives...where the captives themselves are the clues. I'd call that fairly atypical.
The encounters are and the raid theme are interesting. But IMO there is not much that gets the PCs invested in Brindol and in bringing the captives back. As this is not a standalone adventure, you do not have to worry about messing with the DMs idea of the campaign. For me, the AP should provide the DM and the PCs with a background. So with a description of Brindol (see above) the PCs could have grown up in the town or near it. Also,the captives might be relatives. Now the PCs have a natural hombase. A place the will always come back to.
Beyond that, I think that Siege at Bordrin's Watch and the Shadow Rift of Umbraforge both are as chock-full of interesting locales, background, etc. as you can get. Overlook is a great, detailed, useful city. I'm super jealous of Rob Schwalb's city design, as it makes Mithrendain look so ho-hum next to it. Scott Gray brings the Shadowfell to life. I think both adventures are extremely detailed and leave a lot of hooks for the DM...
It is not the interesting locales and encounters I am looking for most in an AP. It is the recurring NPCs and the stuff that happens beyond the scenes. IMO, an AP gives the perfect opportunity to create longtime friends and enemies for the PCs. It also makes the PCs decisions important in the long run. The robber spared in adventure 3 can turn out to be the perfect guide in adventure 10. Or the Half Orc that ran away in adventure 4 keeps a grudge with the PCs and strikes back in adventure 7 (in a most unopportune moment of course).
An AP is best when it creates a living and changing world.At the moment SoW does more like connected adventures than an adventure path to me.
Edit:
To add some APs I think are great:
-Rise of the Runelords because the BBEG has his hands in every action, but the PCs will meet him only very late in the AP. And because the whole story has an epic feel to it.
-Curse of the Crimson Throne because NPCs -even low elvel ones-matter. And because th BBEG stands in plain view the whole time but is untouchable until the vry last.
-The Thousand Thrones for Warhammer FRP (and Rob Schwalb was heavily involved) because it embodies WH grim and grittiness. And because there are a lot of NPCs the players will hate but have to work with.
So what would be some examples of the kinds of adventures you'd like to see in 4E? What kinds of adventures would be so different from the early crop? Feel free to point to a particular adventure as an example.
See, my favorite Dungeon adventures were in the Shackled City/Age of Worms paths. I never got to run Savage Tide, but I'm sure they were fine adventures too. But thinking back, even those great adventures were essentially dungeon crawls with some extra material. You had the occasional adventure that broke the mold (the Prince of Redhand, for example), but for the most part it was go here, fight some guys, learn some stuff, lather rinse repeat. And I, for one, loved it.
(I'd also like to point out that, while you can say that many of the best WotC adventures were written by 3rd regulars, I think many of the best 3rd Party adventures are written by WotC regulars, like Chris Perkins, Dave Noonan, Chris Thomasson/Youngs, Jesse Decker, Ari Marmell, Robert Schwalb, etc. Credit where credit's due.)
I also think that judging an adventure path by its first adventure may be a bit harsh. Life's Bazaar was just a big dungeon crawl. Now, Life's Bazaar did set up the whole city of Cauldron, and of course the Whispering Cairn set up Diamond Lake; for Rescue at Rivenroar, Brindol was already set up by Red Hand of Doom. I also don't think RaR gets enough credit for what it does do in unique ways: it has a series of linked encounters that are part of a village raid, and it has a puzzle surrounding the captives...where the captives themselves are the clues. I'd call that fairly atypical.
Beyond that, I think that Siege at Bordrin's Watch and the Shadow Rift of Umbraforge both are as chock-full of interesting locales, background, etc. as you can get. Overlook is a great, detailed, useful city. I'm super jealous of Rob Schwalb's city design, as it makes Mithrendain look so ho-hum next to it. Scott Gray brings the Shadowfell to life. I think both adventures are extremely detailed and leave a lot of hooks for the DM...
Personally, if i had to choose any three adventures, which I would like to, seem material modelled on for future 4E products.
Edge of anarchy (Curse of the crimson throne), the skinsaw murders(the rise of the runelords) and the power behind the throne(the enemy within).
Edge of Anarchy: This is one of the best openings to a pre-written campaign i have ever played through. Believable motivations for characters to form a party. This is then largely cemented by events. Compelling villains and brilliant encounter locations. Not to mention two major encounters which are best solved by avoiding combat. Hands down my faverate ever urban adventure for DnD. In the main, it avoids dungeon crawl as well, only on encounter feeling like a dungeon.
The skinsaw murders: If this book had to be compared to food, it would be a curry. Jam packed full of flavour. If 4E could make something that felt as creepy and morbidly beautiful as this gem, i would by it in a flash, even despite the fact i have gone into boycott mode since the 'dragon poo incident.' Not to mention a brilliant haunted house (a dungeon crawl that actually made sense, which is a rare thing) and some really cool ghoul killing.
The power behind the throne: In my opinion, the best adventure ever published, and an example of what roleplaying can be at its very best. Non-combat encounters to numerous to list, numerous interwoven plotlines, detailed investigation style play, many detailed and compelling NPCs, Involvement with all levels of society, Well sort out and for the most part sensible combat encounters(only one exception being a rather strange and uncharacteristic attack on the pub where the characters are staying by monsters.) But with only one bad thing in the entire adventure...I think we can live with it.
Oh, and for a more contemporary source of great adventures - WFRP. The Paths of the Damned trilogy is fantastic as are many of the small episodes in Plundered Vaults.
In LFR I loved all of the first seven mods. They all had a great feel, lots of roleplay, and the crawls were minimalist.
I thought path of the damned as a little hit and miss, though the second and third books were far better than the first. Plundered voaults has some real gems in. All i will say is 'Don't eat the sausages!'
L5R has some really cool stuff, but i always thought the setting suffered because of 'the card game drives plot' element.
Personally, I rather liked H1. The hook to get the characters involved and working together was the weak point, mainly because no one had a backstory to go with. But the characters spent a lot of time RPing in town, gathering information and getting into some trouble (blame the curious halfling rogue on that one). But they also managed to RP with some of the fiends on the road and inside the dungeon. I played up Kalarel as the megalomaniacal devotee, and he died like all good masterminds died: with no witnesses.
I see potential for H2, which my friend is running us through now. There is a lot of potential for RP within the Seven-Pillared Hall. We have already had some with the halflings, the eccentric drow merchant and the local duergar. (I'll admit, much of the duergar RP was hurling of insults, eventual combat, and me putting their heads on the horns of the Dragon Door). We've even interacted with the mages that run the place (and not been splattered all over the cave walls... so far).
I had high hopes for H3, but upon review I think it is the most boring of the three. It is a forced dungeon crawl, and the factions within the pyramid are so hostile that there would be little chance of RPing with them and coming out ahead. I suppose one could add some flavor to the module and make some of the factions reasonable with which to negotiate.
I am planning on reimagining some of my older modules for use in 4e; Temple of Elemental Evil and Against the Giants come to mind. Those should be fun.
I am planning on reimagining some of my older modules for use in 4e; Temple of Elemental Evil and Against the Giants come to mind. Those should be fun.
I was thinking of doing the grand "supermodule" trio - ToEE, Scourge of the Slavelords, and Queen of Spiders. I thought of starting a thread for conversions, but decided there probably wouldn't be enough interest at the Paizo 4e boards to make it worthwhile.
We can love and respect some 1E adventures and not feel that they represent great gaming today.
I see your point. In fact, I'm thinking of running some of the 1e adventures in 4e to see if they are really as great as some claim. Perhaps it's not entirely fair, since I am updating them, but I feel a good adventure should translate regardless of the system.
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I am planning on reimagining some of my older modules for use in 4e; Temple of Elemental Evil and Against the Giants come to mind. Those should be fun.I was thinking of doing the grand "supermodule" trio - ToEE, Scourge of the Slavelords, and Queen of Spiders. I thought of starting a thread for conversions, but decided there probably wouldn't be enough interest at the Paizo 4e boards to make it worthwhile.
I don't know about anyone else but I'm interested.
So what would be some examples of the kinds of adventures you'd like to see in 4E? What kinds of adventures would be so different from the early crop? Feel free to point to a particular adventure as an example.
The first couple adventures in the 4e Path made no impression on me whatsoever, but Shadow Rift of Umbraforge seems a cut above the rest. Evocative location, a feeling of being in over your depths, and a not-impossible mission to accomplish - very nice. Of course, the Shadowfell gate seems a bit underwhelming when it's just in an otherwise ordinary dungeon room, but I can fix that.
Also, there's much in the H3 Pyramid adventure that I really like: I love the head in a crystal ball, and I love the overall concept and the villain/backstory. But as I actually read the adventure, I get bogged down by page after page of stats about terrain and monsters. I think the biggest problem with the 4e adventure format is that it just doesn't read well. If it doesn't read somewhat like a story, I have trouble getting excited about running it.
I concur with the last part of your post. I find that the page after page of tactical encounters is really dry and dull to read. It is probably useful if you actual run one of the adventures, but because I find it so uninspiring I don't run them in the first place. Furthermore, all the little encounter maps leaves no room for art, so the modules are very bare on visuals compared to say Pazio's mods. I miss the illustrations, and the lack of them further adds to overall dry feel of the adventures. I started trying to run keep on Shadowfell, but after having just run the Savage Tide AP, I found it totally boring and I scrapped it after one sesssion. Interestingly, it was a really fun game session, and the players really enjoyed it. The problem was that despite the fun I had that session, I still wasn't excited about the module, and if I'm not thinking about it and looking forward to it during the downtime between sessions, I feel unfulfilled and start looking for more stimulating material to run. I've started the Second Darkness AP and I'm excited about seeing that story unfold. However, I am converting it to 4E. I'm posting conversion notes (including stat blocks) on the second darkness board, so if anyone is interested in running it you're welcome to make use of any of that material or contribute some of your own. So far the conversion hasn't been a big chore. The good thing about 4E is that whipping up NPC stat blocks is pretty painless compared to 3E, especially as I get to know the system better.
So what would be some examples of the kinds of adventures you'd like to see in 4E? What kinds of adventures would be so different from the early crop? Feel free to point to a particular adventure as an example.The first couple adventures in the 4e Path made no impression on me whatsoever, but Shadow Rift of Umbraforge seems a cut above the rest. Evocative location, a feeling of being in over your depths, and a not-impossible mission to accomplish - very nice. Of course, the Shadowfell gate seems a bit underwhelming when it's just in an otherwise ordinary dungeon room, but I can fix that.
Also, there's much in the H3 Pyramid adventure that I really like: I love the head in a crystal ball, and I love the overall concept and the villain/backstory. But as I actually read the adventure, I get bogged down by page after page of stats about terrain and monsters. I think the biggest problem with the 4e adventure format is that it just doesn't read well. If it doesn't read somewhat like a story, I have trouble getting excited about running it.
That's the great thing about rpgs. Even a crappy adventure or crappy system can be great fun if you have a good gm and a good group of players. Of course the converse is also true.
Personally, I rather liked H1. The hook to get the characters involved and working together was the weak point, mainly because no one had a backstory to go with. But the characters spent a lot of time RPing in town, gathering information and getting into some trouble (blame the curious halfling rogue on that one). But they also managed to RP with some of the fiends on the road and inside the dungeon. I played up Kalarel as the megalomaniacal devotee, and he died like all good masterminds died: with no witnesses.
I see potential for H2, which my friend is running us through now. There is a lot of potential for RP within the Seven-Pillared Hall. We have already had some with the halflings, the eccentric drow merchant and the local duergar. (I'll admit, much of the duergar RP was hurling of insults, eventual combat, and me putting their heads on the horns of the Dragon Door). We've even interacted with the mages that run the place (and not been splattered all over the cave walls... so far).
I had high hopes for H3, but upon review I think it is the most boring of the three. It is a forced dungeon crawl, and the factions within the pyramid are so hostile that there would be little chance of RPing with them and coming out ahead. I suppose one could add some flavor to the module and make some of the factions reasonable with which to negotiate.
I am planning on reimagining some of my older modules for use in 4e; Temple of Elemental Evil and Against the Giants come to mind. Those should be fun.
It may be too big a topic for just this thread, but when you think of adventures from the past that you'd like to see something that good in 4E, what do you think of?
I agree completly with you that most Paizo module are dungeoncrawl and as a player of Warhammer Fantasy RPG and a lot of others RPG I simply find hard to understand why dungeoncrawl is still the standard for every edition of DnD... After 20-30 rooms of dungeon crawl I usually just stop reading and there is almost no chance I will run the module... Like a previous poster has said, I suppose it`s because most DnD player prefer dungeoncrawl.. And if it`s not the case, it`s about time that we tell it to adventure publishers. Paizo adventures are, most of the time, interesting for dungeoncrawl...
A an example, what I like from the first pathfinder advenure path:
Part 1-2-3 of Burnt Offering.. Part 2: Local Heroes is one of the few DnD module that look like a warhammer adventure with a lot of rpg opportunities.. The last part of the adventure is just a dungeoncrawl and it`s pretty borring.
The Skinsaw Murders - Just perfect
After that, The hook mountain massacre is fine (but not great), the first part of Fortress of the Stone Giants is great but after that (the rest of this module and Sins of Saviors and Spires of Xin-Shalast) are just dungeon crawl and completly ruins the path for me... And I serously don't find the backgound story of the path interesting (It`s stange that wrath and destruction instead of greed motivate the runelord of Greed in this path...ah well..)
Here my list of Dungeon adventures I want to run in 4e (some in Eberron obviously):
Iriandel (a great high fantasy story with a unicorn and a big battle at the end)
Murder in Oakbridge (intrigue)
Chimes At Midnight (intrigue)
Cradle of Madness (Typical of Warhammer - A cult and a mad god)
Mellorn Hospitality (I love Elf, betrayal and Night Hag)
Tammeraut’s Fate (Great horror movie theme)
The Hall of Harsh Reflections (Intrigue - I love Mind Flayer)
Steel Shadows (Intrigue)
The Elfwhisper (I love Elf and great Tolkiensque story)
The Champion Belt (Gladiator Arena and Intrigue)
Test of the Smoking Eye (Wow)
Touch of the Abyss
Shadows of the Abyss
Wrath of the Abyss
(The best DnD trilogy so far.. I prefer a few linked adventures to a very long adventure path where there is a hign probability that I will hate some modules and just don`t use the path at all.
The only 4e adventure I find interesting so far and that I intend to run is The Last Breaths of Ashenport (because I'm a great fan of Call of Cthulhu rpg)
The receipies for great adventure are not hard to find.. Just do something similar to what you are doing with the Dawn of Defiance adventure path (encounter base instead of dungeoncrawl, rpg opportunities, puzzle solving, moral dilema, intrigue, suspense, betrayal, a great recurring vilain and little bit of lovecraftian references...
Thanks for asking Rodney!
I don't know about anyone else but I'm interested.I am planning on reimagining some of my older modules for use in 4e; Temple of Elemental Evil and Against the Giants come to mind. Those should be fun.I was thinking of doing the grand "supermodule" trio - ToEE, Scourge of the Slavelords, and Queen of Spiders. I thought of starting a thread for conversions, but decided there probably wouldn't be enough interest at the Paizo 4e boards to make it worthwhile.
Okay, I started one - so far, a decent amount of interest.
I also think that judging an adventure path by its first adventure may be a bit harsh. Life's Bazaar was just a big dungeon crawl. Now, Life's Bazaar did set up the whole city of Cauldron, and of course the Whispering Cairn set up Diamond Lake; for Rescue at Rivenroar, Brindol was already set up by Red Hand of Doom. I also don't think RaR gets enough credit for what it does do in unique ways: it has a series of linked encounters that are part of a village raid, and it has a puzzle surrounding the captives...where the captives themselves are the clues. I'd call that fairly atypical.
I know people at WOTC have Red Hand of Doom to access I don't. The first module for an AP should set up the AP. I found RaR very lacking. Saying that an older module, from another edition, set up the town is for lack of a better word annoying. Then again the last few Digital Insider Updates have put me in the same mood. Honestly you could skip the first module and it would change little.
As for the series of linked encounters, it was okay but I guess my group compared it heavily to Burnt Offerings. Nothing really excited us to continue Scales. It felt as a series of encounters with little personality. Of course as a DM the more I put into it, the more I wonder if it will derail the story later (of course a real outline for the DMs might help with that).
Beyond that, I think that Siege at Bordrin's Watch and the Shadow Rift of Umbraforge both are as chock-full of interesting locales, background, etc. as you can get. Overlook is a great, detailed, useful city. I'm super jealous of Rob Schwalb's city design, as it makes Mithrendain look so ho-hum next to it. Scott Gray brings the Shadowfell to life. I think both adventures are extremely detailed and leave a lot of hooks for the DM...
These two are far better modules. In fact they (and some of Vaughns comments) are why I decided to run this campaign. In a way Siege fits better as the first module of this AP. However, I still feel very in the dark about the direction of the AP. Was anything in the first module important? Will we see bigger connections between the modules? Can we have an overview of important characters or such?
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You aren't going to get any decent 4E adventures until more 3rd party publishers make those adventures. WotC does not do adventures well. The only good ones they produced in 3.5 were written either completely or partially by freelancers, many of which were used by Paizo on a regular basis.
... and that precludes them from hiring freelancers again?
I have not found much to like from WotC mods for some time but that does not mean that they can't publish good ones.
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I hope they do use some good, experienced freelancers in the future for some adventures. It's the only way that WotC will be able to put out decent adventures. WotC never has had any reasonable competence with either adventure writing or computer-based products. You'd think that they would learn by now they they should outsource those things, but they keep trying and failing miserably.
I agree completly with you that most Paizo module are dungeoncrawl and as a player of Warhammer Fantasy RPG and a lot of others RPG I simply find hard to understand why dungeoncrawl is still the standard for every edition of DnD... After 20-30 rooms of dungeon crawl I usually just stop reading and there is almost no chance I will run the module... Like a previous poster has said, I suppose it`s because most DnD player prefer dungeoncrawl.. And if it`s not the case, it`s about time that we tell it to adventure publishers. Paizo adventures are, most of the time, interesting for dungeoncrawl...
The problem, historically speaking, has been that the fans abandon the game if the designers move away from Dungeon Crawls for too long or that seems to be what the sales figures have said. 2nd Edition delved far from the Dungeon Crawl in large part. They became something of a rarity in Dungeon Magazine and they were not a big part of most of the alternative campaign settings introduced during the 2nd edition era. Yet the fan base just sort of evaporated. Just prior to 3rd edition WotC introduced a 'back to the Dungeon Movement (possibly it was actually TSR in its dieing days) and this emphasis was a big part of early 3.0 - the fan base ate it up. Almost all the 'greats' in terms of classic adventures are fundamentally dungeon crawls.
That said making constant dungeon crawls is not some kind of a big win invariably. There is something of a problem in that so much has already been done and its ever harder to pique the interest of the fans considering that Dungeons are something of a confining environment.
It may be too big a topic for just this thread, but when you think of adventures from the past that you'd like to see something that good in 4E, what do you think of?
I feel that its not so much the adventures that are the problem but the support material for the adventures. Things like backgrounds for the NPCs and Local and a sense of being in some particular place of interest.
I honestly liked the initial city encounters as a player but there was no feeling that I was defending this town for some actual reason. We were in a tavern and then we were in a fight. It had no depth. Pile on the support for the DM so that the world can come alive and you might well have yourself a winning product.
You have a good track record in my book Mr. Baur, so I will be keeping an eye out for "Wrath of the River King". Will this be out a printed module or pdf only? And sticking to my original question - when? :-)DOH! Ninja'ed by Tharen the Damned.
Oh, and the adventure will be released to patrons before the end of the year, most likely in November.
I wish I'd caught this from the beginning, sounds fascinating.
Will their be another opportunity? And will it be 4E?
Horus,
Tharen already answered this question.. but usually there is at least a last ditch chance to buy the PDF of the adventure before it becomes unavailable. The cool part about Open Design is seeing it developed.. but you do get a meaty adventure at the end of it for not much more money than you'd spend on a WOTC product.
I'm saying.. you've kind missed the Design part... bu there will be a final chance to just buy the finished adventure.
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You have a good track record in my book Mr. Baur, so I will be keeping an eye out for "Wrath of the River King". Will this be out a printed module or pdf only? And sticking to my original question - when? :-)DOH! Ninja'ed by Tharen the Damned.
Oh, and the adventure will be released to patrons before the end of the year, most likely in November.
I wish I'd caught this from the beginning, sounds fascinating.
Will their be another opportunity? And will it be 4E?
Horus,
Tharen already answered this question.. but usually there is at least a last ditch chance to buy the PDF of the adventure before it becomes unavailable. The cool part about Open Design is seeing it developed.. but you do get a meaty adventure at the end of it for not much more money than you'd spend on a WOTC product.
I'm saying.. you've kind missed the Design part... bu there will be a final chance to just buy the finished adventure.
I definitely see me buying the adventure 8-)
But what are the chances of a new 4e open design in the foreseeable future. I'd love to view this from the start.
Horus,
Wolfgang lets the money do the talking for the most part. What I mean is, if the project gets funded, he will write it.
As sort of a historical perspective, like many communities, he has people who are dead set against 4E. In fact some of them actually resented Wrath of the River King, because it took development time away from this Zobeck / 3.5 projects. He can only do so many projects at a time you see.
Zobeck will (probably) never see a 4th edition project, because that is his default 3.5 campaign setting and he won't risk losing control over its publishing rights.
The way the system work is that he presents his audience with a Design Concept and then asks that people donate towards its publication. There are usually two tiers, with two levels of access to the development materials. He also sets a funding requirement for the project. When the funding is complete, he starts the project. If the project isn't ever funded, he refunds your money (or some people have elected to slide their patronage to whatever project does get funded).
What happened with Wrath of the River King and Tales of Zobeck is that they were both seeking funding at the same time. The 4E people were mostly hopeful new patrons. The 3.5 Patrons, speaking in broad generalities, were kinda testy, because I think the existence of a 4E project sort of intimidated them. They were worried about the continuation of 3.5 projects in the future.
(Which Wolfgang has assured over and over again should not be a concern, because he doesn't intend to abandon Zobeck or 3.5)
This leads back to your original question...
There will probably be another 4E project if it can get funding.
To see that happen, once it is finished and released Wrath of the River King will need things like word of mouth advertising, honest and hopefully positive reviews (an Ennie Nomination might not hurt if its worthy of it). Open Design needs advertising in the 4E community and people willing to try it out.
If all that happens, you're likely to see another 4E project.
Wolfgang is true to the patronage system. If the artist gets funding, he will perform.
NOTE: none of this was really meant to besmirch the 3.5 community. Open Design just has lots of 3.5 support, less so on the 4E side. There are also a generous handful of patrons who support Wolfgang writing for both editions, myself included.
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Horus,
Wolfgang lets the money do the talking for the most part. What I mean is, if the project gets funded, he will write it.
As sort of a historical perspective, like many communities, he has people who are dead set against 4E. In fact some of them actually resented Wrath of the River King, because it took development time away from this Zobeck / 3.5 projects. He can only do so many projects at a time you see.
Zobeck will (probably) never see a 4th edition project, because that is his default 3.5 campaign setting and he won't risk losing control over its publishing rights.
The way the system work is that he presents his audience with a Design Concept and then asks that people donate towards its publication. There are usually two tiers, with two levels of access to the development materials. He also sets a funding requirement for the project. When the funding is complete, he starts the project. If the project isn't ever funded, he refunds your money (or some people have elected to slide their patronage to whatever project does get funded).
What happened with Wrath of the River King and Tales of Zobeck is that they were both seeking funding at the same time. The 4E people were mostly hopeful new patrons. The 3.5 Patrons, speaking in broad generalities, were kinda testy, because I think the existence of a 4E project sort of intimidated them. They were worried about the continuation of 3.5 projects in the future.
(Which Wolfgang has assured over and over again should not be a concern, because he doesn't intend to abandon Zobeck or 3.5)
This leads back to your original question...
There will probably be another 4E project if it can get funding.
To see that happen, once it is finished and released Wrath of the River King will need things like word of mouth advertising, honest and hopefully positive reviews (an Ennie Nomination might not hurt if its worthy of it). Open Design needs advertising in the 4E community and people willing to try it out.
If all that happens, you're likely to see...
Thanks. You've given me a lot to think about 8-)
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Ok I've gone with member for this one but I guarantee my FULL support for any future 4e endeavours. And in honesty maybe some 3.x (depends on cash flow).
Quick question though. How do you get in on discussions? And design info? Is that patron only? If no, where do I click? Sites a little unfriendly.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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WotC does not do adventures well. The only good ones they produced in 3.5 were written either completely or partially by freelancers, many of which were used by Paizo on a regular basis.
... and that precludes them from hiring freelancers again?
Hi, CWM.
I've heard the following information from three independent sources.
The current impediment to Wizards using a lot of freelancers is the odd freelance contract they're currently using. The company puts a freelancer on a work-for-hire contract, which requires the writer to work exclusively for Wizards for however long they want to be considered for Wizards' writing assignments.
It's like being an employee, with none of the benefits or guaranteed salary.
So, you're either looking for work from Wizards, and Wizards alone, or you're writing for other people.
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Quick question though. How do you get in on discussions? And design info? Is that patron only? If no, where do I click? Sites a little unfriendly.Yep, the discussion is pretty well hidden away, because as you suggest, it is patron-only.
Check your email for details.
Fantastic. Thanks, I'm enjoying reading the back posts. All to slowly mind you.
P.S.@Watcher
Thank you for the friendly push.
Fantastic. Thanks, I'm enjoying reading the back posts. All to slowly mind you.P.S.@Watcher
Thank you for the friendly push.
Welcome aboard! Open Design is a great little community.
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I like 4E. But I also like good adventures with a strong theme, a cool backstory, exciting locations and memorable NPC's.
So I ask you. Is it just me, or are all the adventures put out by Wizards so far "less than they could have been" (up to and including Scepter Tower of Spellguard).
Speaking of adventures, here's the "Submissions" section on Wizards for articles and adventure ideas.
I concur with the last part of your post. I find that the page after page of tactical encounters is really dry and dull to read. It is probably useful if you actual run one of the adventures, but because I find it so uninspiring I don't run them in the first place. Furthermore, all the little encounter maps leaves no room for art, so the modules are very bare on visuals compared to say Pazio's mods. I miss the illustrations, and the lack of them further adds to overall dry feel of the adventures. I started trying to run keep on Shadowfell, but after having just run the Savage Tide AP, I found it totally boring and I scrapped it after one sesssion.
Ding! This summarizes my reaction to the Delve format in general. I could take a Paizo AP (in Dungeon or Pathfinder) with me to the gym and read it like a good book. When I print out a WotC adventure and try to do the same thing I feel like I'm doing homework. Yuck. I'm going to try to read enough of SoW to get to the good parts, but I really want more story!
I am planning on reimagining some of my older modules for use in 4e; Temple of Elemental Evil and Against the Giants come to mind. Those should be fun.I was thinking of doing the grand "supermodule" trio - ToEE, Scourge of the Slavelords, and Queen of Spiders. I thought of starting a thread for conversions, but decided there probably wouldn't be enough interest at the Paizo 4e boards to make it worthwhile.
I personally think a number of the classic adventures are good choices.
I am a big fan of UNDER ILLIFARN which is a great starting point for a campaign with 3 minor adventures(1 session each) which get the PC's into the local terrain. An adventure into the swamps after lizardmen, 1 lizardman tribe are hostile another is just territorial and 2 of my campaigns saw a good alliance formed with the non-evil lizardmen. The finale is a big adventure in the mines of Illefarn with opposing forces of Orcs,Dwarves(gnomes and halflings) and a Necromancer(human bandit soldiers and undead).The adventure is fantastic, the maps are perfect. The PC's can last till 6th level happily with this module(1st and 2nd edition).
Overall we need to see more intrigue, sneaky lying enemies who appear to be friends of the PC's but are found to be the big enemy. Chances to have both combat challenges AND Skill Challenges which are being sadly ignored. The DMG has some example Skill Challenges which are excellent but the 4E adventures need to include them.
For those uncertain about _Wrath of the River King_, here's my review... Also, patronage closes Midnight, December 31, 2008. Don't dawdle unless you want to wait for the next project before you have access to _Wrath._
With that, here's my review:
***
Disclaimer note: I was a senior patron and as such, I got to contribute and playtest portions of Wrath of the River King. Take that for what it’s worth.
The first thing that hits you as you open it up is the front cover. It has a definite "Wild Things" vibe to it that's great. The fantastic Rackham art that had been shown as the preview cover is still there, on the inside title page.
The layout is nice, the header font is very legible. Some of the art has a very medieval, woodcut, or Brothers Grimm theme to it, but that is probably both intentional and doesn't detract from the more detailed pieces-- if anything, they accent it.
The introduction sets up the backstory, the conditions for the start of the adventure, and the points at which milestones are met. The whole thing is light on initial hooks to get things going, but we're looking at a sandbox style adventure. Wolfgang is known for preferring that format, and it's one that puts more responsibility on the GM.
Chapter one kicks off with a great full page picture of a battle scene, providing some cool foreshadowing of things to come. It gives an overview of the village and region where the adventure begins, then launches into the encounters-- each one laid out in the 4E delve format. While I'm personally not thrilled with the limitations of the delve format in any product, it works here. The progression between the five encounters could be a bit more detailed, but again, that's the sandbox design.
There are six chapters in total, with 27 encounters in 96 pages. Combat outnumbers skill challenges about 15 to 8, but there are four purely roleplaying encounters and easily 3 to 4 of the combat encounters could be resolved through roleplay rather than initiative. If you played absolutely every encounter in this great tale, starting at 4th, you'd be creeping up on 11th level. There's quite obviously a lot to work with here. Compare that with Keep on the Shadowfell, which clocked in at 80 pages (a chunk of which were fastplay notes) and 27 encounters—all combat.
The lack of a specific map of the Greater Feywild area allows you to place regions as you please, configuring the sandbox to your whims. It's another way the adventure puts a little responsibility on the GM, but I like that option, as it plays to the mutability and random nature of fae creatures.
Designer notes are scattered throughout, giving insights on particular encounters and possible twists to the encounters as written.
The Birch Queen's Fair is a sandbox that promises to entertain a group for *sessions*, providing characters, side games, interactions and sites that will keep them exploring and looking for more. Which gamer has ever hated going to the RenFest? Now put their characters at one... There's also a new ritual and some excellent roleplaying opportunities salted with a couple combats.
Like the Fair, the Court of the River King provides another interesting sandbox with lots of chances to interact, allowing players to make new allies or engage foes in courtly duels. The best part is that many of small choices sprinkled throughout the adventure can contribute to the encounters here.
It builds up to a fine cinematic conclusion that just about any group hungers for and doesn't disappoint. I'm quite thrilled by the quality and looking forward to getting a table seated to try it.
-Ben.
For those uncertain about _Wrath of the River King_, here's my review... Also, patronage closes Midnight, December 31, 2008. Don't dawdle unless you want to wait for the next project before you have access to _Wrath._
With that, here's my review...
Thanks for the review!
I tried to sign up, but it appears patronage is closed. Can you provide me with a link?
For those uncertain about _Wrath of the River King_, here's my review... Also, patronage closes Midnight, December 31, 2008. Don't dawdle unless you want to wait for the next project before you have access to _Wrath._
With that, here's my review...
Thanks for the review!
I tried to sign up, but it appears patronage is closed. Can you provide me with a link?
There should be a button on the open design myspace page that works. Otherwise, the best bet is probably to shoot wolfgang an email-- the preferred method of payment is paypal, but he might have another idea.
the open design myspace page is here and should be accessible to anyone. You want the third option down-- the one with the drop down menu for a standard or senior patronage.
-Ben.
Thanks for the review!
I tried to sign up, but it appears patronage is closed. Can you provide me with a link?
Be sure to let folks know what you think here!
-Ben.
The lack of credible adventures for the 4.0 system is distressing. By reclaiming lables like Ravenloft and (correct me if I am incorrect, Dragonlance), WoTC implied (in my observation) that they would make use of the rich history in the game. Yet, I am not aware of anything outside the Forgetable Realms that is in the works. And as no 3rd party company can produce anything from WoTC's past, it falls to WoTC to do so. Hence, our disappointment...
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Perhaps people should focus on writers of adventures exclusively and not focus on the company printing them. Just an idea.
Only if the company will allow the authors to publish great adventures. And I notice with Paizo the actual vision comes from James and company and the writers create adventures based on an outline of the adventure and the entire AP.
Many of those adventures mentioned in the above post werre reimaginings of classic D&D adventures by those who could reimagine them the best.
Lack of credible adventures?
Thunderspire Labyrinth, Pyramid of Shadows, Trollhaunt Warrens have all garnered favourable reviews. The adventures in Dungeon have been getting better and better.
Campaign settings?
Eberron will be released next year. Elements of Ravenloft and Planescape have made their way into Manual of the Planes.
The lack of credible adventures for the 4.0 system is distressing. By reclaiming lables like Ravenloft and (correct me if I am incorrect, Dragonlance), WoTC implied (in my observation) that they would make use of the rich history in the game. Yet, I am not aware of anything outside the Forgetable Realms that is in the works. And as no 3rd party company can produce anything from WoTC's past, it falls to WoTC to do so. Hence, our disappointment...
Little early to expect a module from each of the historic campaigns. In any case they've already shown their hand in this regard. They are sticking out a campaign world a year and presumably that will include Dark Sun and Ravenloft and even Dragonlance...eventually.
Any way I think the problem is beginning to recede. The quality of the Scales of War adventures has, apparently, improved with pretty much every instalment. The Dungeon adventures and even WotCs modules are looking better with every instalment and there actually is some pretty good third party material out there at this point.
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Kobold Press
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I'd agree that it's gotten better. And Halls of the Mountain King might be either 4E or 3E, so there's one more to consider with a fair bit of depth. Ahem.
Lack of credible adventures?
Thunderspire Labyrinth, Pyramid of Shadows, Trollhaunt Warrens have all garnered favourable reviews. The adventures in Dungeon have been getting better and better.
Campaign settings?
Eberron will be released next year. Elements of Ravenloft and Planescape have made their way into Manual of the Planes.
Fabesminis, I would hardly consider "ELEMENTS of Ravenloft & Planescape" making a brief mention into the Manual of the Planes as a credible product. WHERE are these wonderful products in these reknowned settings that WoTC has IMPLIED would be available? I have yet to see even one on the shelf since 4.0 went to press, and very few were even available in 3.0 or 3.5 edition. The problem here is that WoTC won't allow any 3rd party company to make use of any of these settings, and WoTC clearly won't either. Thus many old campaign settings and adventure haunts go down the drain simply because WoTC won't touch them and won't allow anyone else to either.
You might think those things aren't important. Consider what 1 adventure (Return to the Tomb of Horrors) did for d&d in the late 90's. Instead, WoTC appears to merely drop the mention of an old/ classic adventure setting or site, and think that will placate the old guard who have purchased these settings (and thus paid their salaries) in years past. Sorry man, won't cut it. They need to deliver, or quit throwing out the names of the old settings. A brief mention in a 4.0 manual of the planes doesn't cut the mustard.Eberron has absolutely no history with d&d before mid 3rd edition, and is Not what I would define as anything even remotely resembling credible, nor does it have anything resembling 'classic adventures/sites'. As for the other three adventures you listed, I'd consider only Thunderspire Labyrinth one that I'd play more than once. What else have you got? The dungeon adventures have not gotten better, since WoTC took over. The best WotC dungeon adventures were the last few 3.5 adventures (Greer & Vaughan's amongst them) and a few other mentionables that were written almost uniformly by authors frequently published in Paizo publications, rather than traditionally WoTC-only personnel.)
I concur with the last part of your post. I find that the page after page of tactical encounters is really dry and dull to read. It is probably useful if you actual run one of the adventures, but because I find it so uninspiring I don't run them in the first place. Furthermore, all the little encounter maps leaves no room for art, so the modules are very bare on visuals compared to say Pazio's mods. I miss the illustrations, and the lack of them further adds to overall dry feel of the adventures. I started trying to run keep on Shadowfell, but after having just run the Savage Tide AP, I found it totally boring and I scrapped it after one sesssion.Ding! This summarizes my reaction to the Delve format in general. I could take a Paizo AP (in Dungeon or Pathfinder) with me to the gym and read it like a good book. When I print out a WotC adventure and try to do the same thing I feel like I'm doing homework. Yuck. I'm going to try to read enough of SoW to get to the good parts, but I really want more story!
+1.
In the end, this turned me away from 4e. It was smooth and the fights ran well, but prepping for games felt like work, except nobody was paying me. I went away from gaming altogether for a few months, then started re-reading the Pathfinder modules and realized that I still loved D&D. I just didn't love 4e. :)
I did buy all the initial 4e modules, and I think they are dull and lifeless as an editorial direction; I think they crafted exactly the modules they intended to. The idea of creating a "world" for the core-rules was good, but the world they ended up with was uninspiring -- I never thought "ooh, I want to adventure there!." Having met a lot of the 4e creatives at Gen Con, I can say they are all genuinely good guys, and hopefully everyone involved can have great success, but 4e left me flat and I won't be playing it any time soon.
So here's to Paizo for not sucking! I've spent accordingly -- bought a good half-dozen books this month and am looking forward to kicking the tires of your campaign world. Cheers!
I concur with the last part of your post. I find that the page after page of tactical encounters is really dry and dull to read. It is probably useful if you actual run one of the adventures, but because I find it so uninspiring I don't run them in the first place. Furthermore, all the little encounter maps leaves no room for art, so the modules are very bare on visuals compared to say Pazio's mods. I miss the illustrations, and the lack of them further adds to overall dry feel of the adventures. I started trying to run keep on Shadowfell, but after having just run the Savage Tide AP, I found it totally boring and I scrapped it after one sesssion.Ding! This summarizes my reaction to the Delve format in general. I could take a Paizo AP (in Dungeon or Pathfinder) with me to the gym and read it like a good book. When I print out a WotC adventure and try to do the same thing I feel like I'm doing homework. Yuck. I'm going to try to read enough of SoW to get to the good parts, but I really want more story!+1.
In the end, this turned me away from 4e. It was smooth and the fights ran well, but prepping for games felt like work, except nobody was paying me. I went away from gaming altogether for a few months, then started re-reading the Pathfinder modules and realized that I still loved D&D. I just didn't love 4e. :)
I did buy all the initial 4e modules, and I think they are dull and lifeless as an editorial direction; I think they crafted exactly the modules they intended to. The idea of creating a "world" for the core-rules was good, but the world they ended up with was uninspiring -- I never thought "ooh, I want to adventure there!." Having met a lot of the 4e creatives at Gen Con, I can say they are all genuinely good guys, and hopefully everyone involved can have great success, but 4e left me flat and I won't be playing it any time soon.
So here's to Paizo for not sucking! I've spent accordingly -- bought a good half-dozen...
I've created adventures with lots of personalities and discussion encounters(skill challenges etc) in them and the players have responded accordingly. I've even looked at Keep of the shadowfell and worked out a few interesting roleplaying encounters to include rather than combat.
The annoying thing is the fact that people are getting paid not producing adventures that will stretch the system and the imagination of players.Admittedly many of the old adventures included character details like 'Jacob an older man with dark beard and moustache in his 40's but is a greedy town guard and likely swayed by a bribe' but that simple line gives roleplay options for the DM.
Lack of credible adventures?
Thunderspire Labyrinth, Pyramid of Shadows, Trollhaunt Warrens have all garnered favourable reviews. The adventures in Dungeon have been getting better and better.
Campaign settings?
Eberron will be released next year. Elements of Ravenloft and Planescape have made their way into Manual of the Planes.
Fabesminis, I would hardly consider "ELEMENTS of Ravenloft & Planescape" making a brief mention into the Manual of the Planes as a credible product. WHERE are these wonderful products in these reknowned settings that WoTC has IMPLIED would be available? I have yet to see even one on the shelf since 4.0 went to press, and very few were even available in 3.0 or 3.5 edition. The problem here is that WoTC won't allow any 3rd party company to make use of any of these settings, and WoTC clearly won't either. Thus many old campaign settings and adventure haunts go down the drain simply because WoTC won't touch them and won't allow anyone else to either.
You might think those things aren't important. Consider what 1 adventure (Return to the Tomb of Horrors) did for d&d in the late 90's. Instead, WoTC appears to merely drop the mention of an old/ classic adventure setting or site, and think that will placate the old guard who have purchased these settings (and thus paid their salaries) in years past. Sorry man, won't cut it. They need to deliver, or quit throwing out the names of the old settings. A brief mention in a 4.0 manual of the planes doesn't cut the mustard.Eberron has absolutely no history with d&d before mid 3rd edition, and is Not what I would define as anything even remotely resembling credible, nor does it have anything resembling 'classic adventures/sites'. As for the other three adventures you listed, I'd consider only Thunderspire Labyrinth one that I'd play more than once. What else have you got? The dungeon adventures have not gotten better, since WoTC took over. The best WotC dungeon adventures were the last few...
The system hasn't been out that long either, so give them a bit of time... it's a bit much to expect, isn't it, for them to release all these campaign settings so quickly?
I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just think it's a bit odd. I have as much liking for the old settings as you, and I personally enjoy the mentions they get. I would love a Dark Sun 4E book, but I want them to get it right.