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Now that I think about it because Native outsiders are a subtype of an Outsider. Which means for one package they gain
Darkvision 60 feet.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. (Multiple weapon training)
Immune to X person spells like Charm, Dominate person or any spell that targets humanoids.
The only cons are they do not benefit from Enlarge person.
Now that I think about it because Native outsiders are a subtype of an Outsider. Which means for one package they gain
Darkvision 60 feet.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. (Multiple weapon training)
Immune to X person spells like Charm, Dominate person or any spell that targets humanoids.The only cons are they do not benefit from Enlarge person.
Not any more over powered than the Fey or Monstrous Humanoid.
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I always thought that immunity to Charm/Dominate was extremely circumstantial at best. Not something worth doing much about. I have seen those spells come up approximately zero times in my last 3 years of gaming (at least, for being used against PCs). I have seen various charm effects happen, but since those weren't "Charm Person" or "Dominate Person", that was irrelevant.
Being unable to use enlarge person comes up more often than being immune to charm person or dominate person in the games I've played, so I count it as neutral.
I always thought that immunity to Charm/Dominate was extremely circumstantial at best. Not something worth doing much about. I have seen those spells come up approximately zero times in my last 3 years of gaming (at least, for being used against PCs). I have seen various charm effects happen, but since those weren't "Charm Person" or "Dominate Person", that was irrelevant.
Being unable to use enlarge person comes up more often than being immune to charm person or dominate person in the games I've played, so I count it as neutral.
It also affects hold person, which sees a bit more use in encounters. Still, it is not a particularly overpowering bonus.
Of course, I was hoping that they would have just made native outsider a subtype for humanoid (as a few people suggested back in the original playtest).
its been ruled that you dont get the weapon/armor prof's unless you have a racial hit dice.
Can you site where that is? There is not FAQ entry on it and the bestiary does not make a distinction.
Mind you, based on the playtest info on what outsider (native) type grants for 2 points, I believe you are correct. I just want to know where it was stated for future reference.
Can you site where that is? There is not FAQ entry on it and the bestiary does not make a distinction.its been ruled that you dont get the weapon/armor prof's unless you have a racial hit dice.
A couple of cites;
One
But James Jacobs has sometimes some weird approaches to rules.
So quoting him and saying it overrules something is a bid "weak". It would be a good point for a house rule, though.
If Sean came around and said so. Or if they would finally put up some errata with it ;)
But James Jacobs has sometimes some weird approaches to rules.
So quoting him and saying it overrules something is a bid "weak". It would be a good point for a house rule, though.
If Sean came around and said so. Or if they would finally put up some errata with it ;)
JJ usually indicates when it's his opinion; this seemed a blanket statement he was making/clarifying (0 hd = no type proficiencies). Plus, it wasn't just the creative director that was cited by Set. Another piece of evidence is the ifrit monster entry (Bestiary 2, page 160). The example is a sorcerer who blew a feat on Martial Weapon (scimitar).
However, I agree it needs to be FAQ'ed ASAP.
Now that I think about it because Native outsiders are a subtype of an Outsider. Which means for one package they gain
Darkvision 60 feet.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. (Multiple weapon training)
Immune to X person spells like Charm, Dominate person or any spell that targets humanoids.The only cons are they do not benefit from Enlarge person.
Reduce Person is a rarely used buff for some classes like sorcerers, wizards, or medium-sized rogues.
In addition, when a native outsider uses disguise self or a hat of disguise she can only make herself appear as another outsider, not as a humanoid. Outrageous as it seems, an aasimar--which naturally appears very nearly human--can magically disguise herself as a hell hound more easily than as a human.
But I agree--the drawbacks of being a native outsider are few and situational.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
In addition, when a native outsider uses disguise self or a hat of disguise she can only make herself appear as another outsider, not as a humanoid. Outrageous as it seems, an aasimar--which naturally appears very nearly human--can magically disguise herself as a hell hound more easily than as a human.
Type is so badly used here. I think they should have the humanoid type, with an appropriate subtype. PF updated giants to a subtype of humanoid, which was a step in the right direction, but humanoid (fey) and humanoid (outsider) subtypes would also make sense.
But James Jacobs has sometimes some weird approaches to rules.
So quoting him and saying it overrules something is a bid "weak". It would be a good point for a house rule, though.
If Sean came around and said so. Or if they would finally put up some errata with it ;)
JJ usually indicates when it's his opinion; this seemed a blanket statement he was making/clarifying (0 hd = no type proficiencies). Plus, it wasn't just the creative director that was cited by Set. Another piece of evidence is the ifrit monster entry (Bestiary 2, page 160). The example is a sorcerer who blew a feat on Martial Weapon (scimitar).
However, I agree it needs to be FAQ'ed ASAP.
Yet still RAW are that you have them and no errata/clarification was ever released.
Though in my group you don't get them ;).
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But James Jacobs has sometimes some weird approaches to rules.
So quoting him and saying it overrules something is a bid "weak". It would be a good point for a house rule, though.
If Sean came around and said so. Or if they would finally put up some errata with it ;)
JJ usually indicates when it's his opinion; this seemed a blanket statement he was making/clarifying (0 hd = no type proficiencies). Plus, it wasn't just the creative director that was cited by Set. Another piece of evidence is the ifrit monster entry (Bestiary 2, page 160). The example is a sorcerer who blew a feat on Martial Weapon (scimitar).
However, I agree it needs to be FAQ'ed ASAP.
Yet still RAW are that you have them and no errata/clarification was ever released.
Though in my group you don't get them ;).
And this is one of the main reasons I don't like their classification as Outsider (native). They get almost nothing for it (maybe even a net negative in the long run) and yet people ban them because they're afraid of the type being overpowered.
The only thing that was actually scary about them was reincarnate (there are many more powerful outsiders than there are powerful humanoids), but thanks to bestiary 2 there are at least 7 options to reincarnate into (including their original race) without becoming more powerful, so all you have to do is make the chart have those 7 options plus the famous "DM's Choice".
PS: For those who don't know, the Reincarnate chart is only for humanoids. If the creature is a different type you're supposed to make your own chart for them composed of creatures of that type, then roll on that new chart.
But James Jacobs has sometimes some weird approaches to rules.
So quoting him and saying it overrules something is a bid "weak". It would be a good point for a house rule, though.
If Sean came around and said so. Or if they would finally put up some errata with it ;)
JJ usually indicates when it's his opinion; this seemed a blanket statement he was making/clarifying (0 hd = no type proficiencies). Plus, it wasn't just the creative director that was cited by Set. Another piece of evidence is the ifrit monster entry (Bestiary 2, page 160). The example is a sorcerer who blew a feat on Martial Weapon (scimitar).
However, I agree it needs to be FAQ'ed ASAP.
If you note the first link to Jacobs' reply, you will see that the staff (probably SKR's) response to the FAQ request was "No response required."
In other words: they considered his answer enough and did not consider it worth it to post up a response in the FAQ or errata.
I'll also note that for people wanting RAW, most 0 HD races have a line in their description that goes, for example, like this:
Aasimars are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Aasimars have the following racial traits.
Note the "are defined by class levels" part. That's the RAW you're looking for. That means skills, feats, and proficiencies are determined by class level, not by racial hit dice. The monster abilities granted by creature type all have to do with hit die advancement--you should no more give a race proficiencies based on monster hit dice any more than you should give them hit points from monster hit dice or skill ranks. In other words, a native outsider doesn't automatically get good Reflex and Will saves, nor are they guaranteed a d10 hit die, nor do they get 6 skill points a level based on race--and just as they don't get these things, they don't get the proficiencies listed in the same list of traits either.
Back to the issue of point value, as darkvision 60 is also worth 2 points, basically they're getting to x person for free. Hard to determine whether that's worth an extra point or not.
Just had an odd thought. If they're "native" outsiders maybe they can be banished :) In the playtest it says "When making
a native outsider race, it is sometimes important to pick a
plane that race is tied to. For example, tieflings are tied to Abaddon, the Abyss, or Hell." (pages 5-6). It also states that it's not neccesary to chose another plane for them to be tied to. In short I don't really think you could / should be able to banish them, but it would be funny if some player just found his native outsider PC on his native plane. Some low level PC staring out across the Abyss... :D
Yes, I have a sick sense of humor.
Now that I think about it because Native outsiders are a subtype of an Outsider. Which means for one package they gain
Darkvision 60 feet.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. (Multiple weapon training)
Immune to X person spells like Charm, Dominate person or any spell that targets humanoids.The only cons are they do not benefit from Enlarge person.
I'm dumb, but can anyone point out where this is stated? I've skimmed the PDF and the only thing I see for the Outsider (Native) entry is:
"A native
outsider race has the followings features.
• Native outsiders have the darkvision 60 ft. racial ability.
• Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep."
Thanks!
The "person" spells and Daze only affect the humanoid type (see the spell entries). races like Aasimir and Tiefling have the Outsider type and the Native subtype but not the Humanoid type. See the discussion of types in the back of the Bestiary.
Aha! Thank you, Sunshine Rat!
But James Jacobs has sometimes some weird approaches to rules.
So quoting him and saying it overrules something is a bid "weak". It would be a good point for a house rule, though.
If Sean came around and said so. Or if they would finally put up some errata with it ;)
JJ usually indicates when it's his opinion; this seemed a blanket statement he was making/clarifying (0 hd = no type proficiencies). Plus, it wasn't just the creative director that was cited by Set. Another piece of evidence is the ifrit monster entry (Bestiary 2, page 160). The example is a sorcerer who blew a feat on Martial Weapon (scimitar).
However, I agree it needs to be FAQ'ed ASAP.
If you note the first link to Jacobs' reply, you will see that the staff (probably SKR's) response to the FAQ request was "No response required."
In other words: they considered his answer enough and did not consider it worth it to post up a response in the FAQ or errata.
I'll also note that for people wanting RAW, most 0 HD races have a line in their description that goes, for example, like this:
Aasimars are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Aasimars have the following racial traits.Note the "are defined by class levels" part. That's the RAW you're looking for. That means skills, feats, and proficiencies are determined by class level, not by racial hit dice. The monster abilities granted by creature type all have to do with hit die advancement--you should no more give a race proficiencies based on monster hit dice any more than you should give them hit points from monster hit dice or skill ranks. In other words, a native outsider doesn't automatically get good Reflex and Will saves, nor are they guaranteed a d10 hit die, nor do they get 6 skill points a level based on race--and just as they don't get these things, they don't get the proficiencies listed in the same list of traits either.
Back to the issue of point...
Ah, thank you. :-)
It would be nice to have it FAQ'ed though, since it still causes confusion.FraterEAO,
Also (if you're still wondering), the part about weapon/armor proficiencies is under the outsider type, not the native subtype.
Just had an odd thought. If they're "native" outsiders maybe they can be banished :) In the playtest it says "When making
a native outsider race, it is sometimes important to pick a
plane that race is tied to. For example, tieflings are tied to Abaddon, the Abyss, or Hell." (pages 5-6). It also states that it's not neccesary to chose another plane for them to be tied to. In short I don't really think you could / should be able to banish them, but it would be funny if some player just found his native outsider PC on his native plane. Some low level PC staring out across the Abyss... :D
This issue has nothing to do with the Outsider type and everything to do with the extraplanar subtype. Unlike other subtypes, extraplanar is dynamic. You have it any time you're on a plane other than your home plane, and lose it when on your home plane. So if the native outsider in question was born on Golarion, the material plane is its home plane and it can't be banished while there.
We did a nearly all-tiefling party for a recent AP.
The tieflings firmly believed that they were better than humans, and as a player I saw little cause to doubt it--the darkvision was a big deal, the resistances were a big deal at the lower levels, and the charm/hold immunity came up now and again as well. (Unfortunately the module authors didn't always remember it, and had tieflings succumbing to charm person as part of the plotline--oops.)
The downside was that the module was crawling with anti-evil-outsider magic items and abilities--I think they were there for the PCs to pick up and use, which they did, but they also did a number on the PCs. One PC was actually fighting with a bane-sword specific to his own type (don't cut yourself, ow!) because it was far and away the best weapon available; he eventually went up against a paladin who had one just like it, and got severely mauled.
If I were a Chel making a bane-sword I would make it an evil-outsider version without much hesitation (human is the other prominent choice). Of course this is not a problem for neutral or good tieflings.
Do remember that tieflings are not 'outsider (evil)'. They aren't subject to anti-evil outsider abilities.
This issue has nothing to do with the Outsider type and everything to do with the extraplanar subtype. Unlike other subtypes, extraplanar is dynamic. You have it any time you're on a plane other than your home plane, and lose it when on your home plane. So if the native outsider in question was born on Golarion, the material plane is its home plane and it can't be banished while there.
Hence the "native" as in native to the Prime Material plane. I get that. It was an amusing thought and a play on "native" outsider. Presumably if one (a Tiefling etc. / Native Outsider) was born on another plane it would be an outsider with the extraplanar subtype. On the Prime Material anyway. Or would it? Still an awful lot of "prime material" in their makeup / essence. Not a semi-demon (do they still have Alu-Demons and Cambions?), just a "touch" of strange. Would be interesting if a creature like that (a Cambion or Alu) could be banished back and forth. Or would it's place of birth be dominant? Or it's demonic side win out?
This issue has nothing to do with the Outsider type and everything to do with the extraplanar subtype. Unlike other subtypes, extraplanar is dynamic. You have it any time you're on a plane other than your home plane, and lose it when on your home plane. So if the native outsider in question was born on Golarion, the material plane is its home plane and it can't be banished while there.Hence the "native" as in native to the Prime Material plane. I get that. It was an amusing thought and a play on "native" outsider. Presumably if one (a Tiefling etc. / Native Outsider) was born on another plane it would be an outsider with the extraplanar subtype. On the Prime Material anyway. Or would it? Still an awful lot of "prime material" in their makeup / essence. Not a semi-demon (do they still have Alu-Demons and Cambions?), just a "touch" of strange. Would be interesting if a creature like that (a Cambion or Alu) could be banished back and forth. Or would it's place of birth be dominant? Or it's demonic side win out?
The native subtype would really be more aptly named the mortal subtype (or, as I'd prefer, get rid of it entirely). Although it is indicative of an outsider with connections to the Material Plane, it doesn't actually mandate that the creature was born there. A tiefling who came from Galisemni would be native to the Maelstrom, and extraplanar on every other plane.