Maouse, Manyshot only adds an additional arrow to your first attack not to every one. Additionally you only apply precision base damage (Sneak Attk.) once to the attack. Deadly aim doset swap your dex bonus to damage it gives a flat increase of -1hit/+2damage every 4bab. But regardless at 19th level yes the rogue could potentially do alot of damage with a full round of sneak attacks. Now if you compared that 19th archer rogue to a ranger/fighter/pally at 19th level it wouldnt be in the same ballpark...
So basically every d6 number uve posted half it and half the damage bonus to ur attacks and it be close.. And hope the critter ur attacking isnt immune to precision base damage.
And hope the critter ur attacking isnt immune to precision base damage.
Which, to be fair, it probably isn't.
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TY WerePox... I'm newly back to this whole realm (playing Powers and Perils for last umpteen years).
So 9th level:
5d6 sneak + 1d6 (1 arrow) + 4 (deadly aim) + magic weapon bonus + 1 (Point Blank shot) = 6d6 + 5 + magic weapon bonus (Surprise phase)
Greater invisible/blinded target at 9th:
5d6 sneak attack (x 3 attacks) + 4d6 (4 arrows) + 12 (deadly aim) + 4x weapon bonus + 4 (PBS) = 19d6 + 16 + 4x weapon bonus (first full round)
Greater invisible/blinded target at 19th:
10d6 (x4) + 5d6 (5 arrows) + 32 (deadly aim) + 5x weapon bonus + 5 PBS = 45d6 + 37 + 5x weapon bonus. So from 87 (+1 weapon) to 332 (max with no crit and +5 weapon)
If you have an idea about those other classes bruising out an average of 160ish damage a turn at 19, let me know. (or even about the 80 average at level 9)
(dust of disappearance is a pretty cheap alternate route, only takes two days for a friend to make, etc...)
I think people make things too complicated by trying to squeeze out the last point of DPR possible. A Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Archer is very viable. Will it be the DPR King? No. If the player is the type that insists on being the best, or needs to "win" when they play Pathfinder, then this build may not be for them.
To give some base comparisons here is a Fighter vs. Rogue at 19. (I would take 2 levels of Sorcerer to qualify for Arcane Archer by the way. You don't lose any BAB and get another spell level.)
Rogue 7/Sorcerer 2/Arcane Archer 10
BAB: +16
HP: 106+Conx19
Caster Level: 9
Sneak Attack: +4d6
Rogue Talents: 3
Feats: 10
Skills: 100+Intx19
Fighter 7/Sorcerer 2/Arcane Archer 10
BAB: +18
HP: 114+Conx19
Caster Level: 9
Feats: 14
Skills: 58+Intx19
I'm not seeing a huge difference. Two more BAB, eight more HP, one more Feat (if you consider Talent's = to feats) and a whole lot less skills. The extra feat for the Fighter might be considered Weapon Specialization, for a +2 to damage for every shot. This would be offset by the Rogues +14 damage, but only when they can get a Sneak Attack off.
I realize that the Fighter (or Ranger, or whatever full BAB class) will qualify for Arcane Archer sooner, so there is that. A Ranger would not be to far off. It would get the Weapon Style feats, more skills, and a situational bonus to your Favored Enemy. The animal companion would be weak, unless you shore it up some how. Ranger spells would be very low-level, but you would get things like Cure Light Wounds to use a wand.
But again, I am not saying the Rogue is better. I am just saying that it is in the same ballpark.
I forgot Weapon Training for the Fighter. So another +1 to hit and Damage for him, which is pretty good.
Armor Training and Bravery is cool. But the Rogue also gets Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, plus Trap Finding to fill that trap monkey role.
And all this is just strait Base class Core only. With archtypes you can do more with both the Fighter and Rogue I'm sure. But I don't use archtypes much, so I'm not really familiar with them.
To summarize. I think the Fighter will do more damage with full attacks, but I don't see how he will out do the Rogue on the opening round with Sneak Attack, which would fit the original concept better.
Oh, just noticed this:
Hail of Arrows (Sp)
In lieu of his regular attacks, once per day an arcane archer of 8th level or higher can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target for every arcane archer level she has earned. Each attack uses the archer's primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow.
Only once a day, but if you win Initiative (could you do this in the surprise round?), you may be able to get a sneak attack at your highest BAB against EVERYONE in a 30' (or 40') radius. Situational, but a LOT of fun when you can pull it off.
There's always the option of working with another character to make an effective combo build. Both take Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses, for instance. The barbarian or fighter runs up and uses Dazzling Display, then the rogue comes out from hiding and full attacks, getting sneak attack on the first attack because of hiding, and then sneak attack on the rest of his attacks because of Shatter Defenses.
Yeah, it only works on demoralize-able foes, but every build has a weakness. Trip builds don't work on flying or really big enemies, for instance.
Just for fun. The Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Archer Sneak Attack at 19th level.
Assume 18 Dex, +4 level increases, a belt of Physical Perfection +6, Greater Bracers of Archery, Sniper Goggles, Holy Elemental Burst arrows and a +5 Comp. Longbow, imbuing it with Fire Ball (or similar) against Evil opponents.
16 BAB, +9 Dex, +7 magic, +2 competence, +1 Weapon Focus, -5 Deadly Aim, +1 Point Blank Shot = +31 (against a flat-footed opponent)
1d8 Comp. Longbow, +4d6 Sneak Attack, +2d6 holy, +1d6 elemental, +5 Str, +7 magic, +8 Sniper Goggles, +1 competence, +10 Deadly Aim, +1 Point Blank Shot = avg. 61 damage + 32.5 fire (reflex save for half)
Okay, at 19th level there may be some problems with the above. You need to make sure that you use the right element so it doesn't get resisted. If the target has spell resistance, you are probably not going to get the spell through. The target will probably make it's save.
On the flip side, you might be able to use Improved Invisibility to always get your sneak attack. If you get the drop on your targets you might be able to sneak in and get off a Hail of Arrows surprise round. With luck this could add up to several hundred damage against vulnerable targets. Cast True Strike (silence, while hidden or invisible if needed) just before you attack to make sure you hit.
I would think that you could use both Seeker Arrow and Phase Arrow to get a Sneak Attack. Locate your target then run behind full cover (around a corner, behind a Wall of Stone, or whatever) then fire an arrow and have it fly unerringly to the target. This has the added bonus that you now have full cover for the rest of your turn.
Just for fun Barbarian Attacks vs CR 19 Ancient Red Dragon AC 38, HP 362
Now this is a very opptimized build, but i could do similar ones, with not quite the fire power but close with a paladin, ranger, or fighter at 19th.
Starting stats 20pt buy:
str 17+2
dex 12
con 14
int 7
wis 10
cha 7
all level bumps into str
gear +6str/con belt, +5 furious keen falcata, +5 cloak resist, +4 cha tome(used), boots speed/winged, +5 breastplate, +5 amulet nat armor, pale green ion stone, dusty rose ion stone, ring freedom of movement, +5 ring prot, +6 headband cha and a few golds to spare from the 580k start golds.
Basic charge and beat ass build, not the cagm build. superstition,witch hunter, beast totems, reckless abadon and some 1 per rage powers.
raging vitality, raging brutality, power attack, eldritch heritage - orc feat line, sunning assault, ewp - falcata, iron will, sf surv., quicken sla tor, and erpx1 round out feats
Now for the good stuff:
Buffs: Haste from Boots, Touch of Rage, Power of Giants, and Rage, so 2 rounds of buffs and charge/pounce using power attack and stunning assault.
+54/+54/+49/+44/+39 for 2d6 + 85 17/20x3 +dc 29 stun
So on a full attack vs a cr 19s ac he only misses on a 1 and does an average damage of 460 without crits...
His AC is 33ish while raging with an average hps of 404 and saves of
fort: +41 reflex: +23 will: +24
Now as i said before this is a pretty optimized build, but as you can see demolishes anything you could do with a rogue at this level...
Yes, it is also listed as (Sp), which is a Spell-like Ability, and the PRD says, "spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise". So I think it would work.
A break down of his pluses to hit:
+19bab, +20str, +7weapon, +5reckless abandon, +9touch of rage, +1haste, +1circ., +2charge, -5power attack, -5stunning assault for +54/+54/+49/+44/+39
Damage:
+30str, +19raging brutality, +7weapon, +9touch of rage, +15power attack, +5witch hunter for +85 vs the dragon...
average per hit is 92.. x5 = 460 unless he rolls a 1...
So obviously all characters should be raging Barbarians...
You are comparing apples and oranges. We could compare how many spells a Barbarian could cast vs. the Arcane Archer, but who cares? Give that Barbarian a bow and how does he do?
With Haste, Rapid Shot and Multishot the Rogue Arcane Archer is doing 373 damage, assuming he switches to Icy Burst and hits with all arrows. But he doesn't need to hit with all arrows, because he is part of a party and they will all be adding damage to the dragon.
The OP asked for advice on making a Rogue Arcane Archer work, and that is what I have been giving. I figured this would be more constructive than just saying, "No, that sucks. You should do something else."
hmm... sniping one-shot... maybe assassin if your dm is willing to overlook alignment (why couldn't an assassin be LN?)
ninja+assassin or scout+assassin could give him his save-or-die sniper?
studying for 3 rounds sounds easier from a little distance then from up-close...
I was never saying the rogue/arcane archer couldnt be affective and fun to play, i was just simply responding to the "show me a character that can do 160dpr consistantly" at level 19... So i presented one that could kill a cr19 in 1 round with room to spare.. I would say in most cases your build vs the barb would win if played smartly...
Oh yes. The Arcane Archer's AC is going to be "Too far away to be hit" with Hit Points of "Doesn't matter as he is not being hit". The Barbarian in front will be taking all of the damage for him. ;-)
And for your build above consider lore warden or weapon master over straight fighter.. the first gets u more skill points and a free feat and the latter will progress weapon training an additional +1
well too far away to be hit by baddies maybe.. well within hit range for the barb, esp if u consider str surge/spell sunder combo ;)
I was never saying the rogue/arcane archer couldnt be affective and fun to play, i was just simply responding to the "show me a character that can do 160dpr consistantly" at level 19... So i presented one that could kill a cr19 in 1 round with room to spare.. I would say in most cases your build vs the barb would win if played smartly...
Ah, sorry. I thought that post was aimed at me. Yes, it is easy to out damage my Rogue Arcane Archer build. I was just trying to make it as effective as possible and showing what it could do.
The OP wanted an optimized build so he could show what it could do. He could then fairly hold it up against another build to see how it stacks up. So instead of a raging pouncing barbarian, which I really don't think would be helpful as it does not fit the character concept at all, maybe you (or someone else) can post another ranged sniper build that can do better. This would help us all see if the Rogue Arcane Archer stacks up to other builds or not.
Yea and honestly i think your build would be better than a straight rogue archer, but the op stated his son didnt want a "difficult build" to play and the gish-like classes can be very much that to new players.
When u have 5-6 different things you can do each round it can become overwhelming. I personlaay think the best for him would be a stealthy ranger that just rolls 4-5 d20s a round and says "100damage" at 10th level lol...
At level 19 seeing invisible opponents is not that hard. Some monsters have true seeing or blindsight. The idea of invis at high levels has come up in other post.
I think that when the rogue can get the jump he does more damage on the first round, but in other situations he won't keep up. The fireball damage won't make that much of a difference either most likely.
PS:I do agree that barbarian build is not helping at all since.
I will put up a complete level 10 build which I was supposed to do days ago anyway.
The animal companion does about 30 DPR when favored enemy is on.
Why am I making a build if the DPR Olympics has builds? 92 DPR.
I don't see the arcane archer competing, and as classes level up they normally widen the gap.
I actually like Wizard better than Sorcerer, so let's try a Rogue 7/Wizard 2/Arcane Archer1. That makes it 10th level. I also like Elf, so we will go with that.
Str 12
Dex 22 (+2 race, +1 level, +4 enhancement)
Con 12 (-2 race, +1 level)
Int 18 (+2 race, +2 enhancement)
Wis 10
Cha 8
HP: 69
AC: 21 (10, +4 armor, +6 Dex, +1 deflection)
Fort: +7
Ref: +15
Will: +8
Feats: Focused Shot, Improved Initiative, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Talents: Combat Trick (Rapid Shot), Snap Shot, Weapon Training (bows)
Skills: 104 points worth.
Equipment:
+3 Comp. Longbow (+1 Str)
+4 Dex belt
+2 Int hat
+3 cloak of resistance
+1 ring of protection
Attack:
Standard Attack:
+18 to hit
1d8+9 = 13.6
Full Attack:
+16, +16, +11 to hit
4d8+20 = 38
Standard Sneak Attack:
+18 to hit
1d8+9+4d6 = 27.5
Full Sneak Attack:
+16, +16, +11 to hit
4d8+20+12d6 = 80
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Let's presume an invisible (again I go back to Hide in Plain Sight from shadowdancer level 1) Rogue with whirlwind attack and a 5 foot reach... 10d6 sneak attack to everyone within range. That would trump almost any other build imaginable... Beset by 20 mobs? BOOM! 200d6 comin at ya!
BAB +14
Caster Level: 19 (for a single 0 and 1st lvl spell)
Feats: 16 (I think, if you use your rogue talents for feats), plus bonus feats from class
Skills: 156 + 19x int mod
RANGE ROGUE!!! RANGE ROGUE!!!
Thankyou, Mrs. Torrance.
a good dip class for a rogue is oracle. take waves spec with the haunted curse, and the water sight ability. then cast obscuring mist and shoot arrows out of the mist for auto sneak attack damage. then you can ignore most of the "best rogue feats" like improved feint ect...
I was also going to suggest the somewhat-cheesy one-level oracle-of-waves dip to create the misty sniper, but absolutely do not take the haunted curse on any character that will be engaging in ranged combat. As far as I can tell, ammunition counts with regard to "retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action." Unless I'm wrong, that means you could get off a shot once every other round at best. The tongues curse is the least painful, but this character could get away with the wasting curse as well.
Well, i mentioned AT, cause of spell progression. AA loses too many levels to come to all important Improved Invisibility, cause that is the simplest way to do full attack with a bow and have SA on all of them. You could go Chameleon, buffing up Stealth and Snipe rogue talent tree route, but then you need to get Vital Strike as well, just to stay in game later on, which is not a bad thing, just sub optimal as you can fail your Stealth as well. With AT your SA progresses with levels, with AA it does not. You are concerned about BAB ? There are so many spells that can help you with that one. From Reduce Size, giving you effectively +2 to attack, to invisibility, giving you another 2, GMW giving you +1 per 4 levels, and only spell i mentioned that goes round/level is Invis (If we take into account its Improved Invis). Oh yeah, there is also Heroism at what ? 3rd or 4th spell level for wizards ? So many buff spells, that got decent duration, that BAB is not really a problem at all. Problem is landing ranged sneak attacks. With HiPS you could do it once, then twice per round. Surprise action, shoot, 5-foot step, hide, then full attack, and in a full attack 5-foot step to hide again, and so on. Which is a bit of a pain. Improved Invis as a ring, is custom item, i know of DM's that do not allow custom made items, and it also costs somewhere in range of 200k even if DM allowed it. So yeah, if its ranged SA you want, either focus on sniping and Vital Strike, or survive 4-5 more levels till you get Improved Invis as a spell. OR you can always plead with DM to let you play a Pixie ...