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The movement costing a move action is only if you are moving an object. So if you were to make a ranged steal maneuver using mage hand you would need a move action to move the stolen item (unless the ability said otherwise). This means that none of the abilities you listed would cost an additional action.

Well you can't make a steal maneuver, only a slight of hand check, so I don't think you actually can use that application in combat. The interpretation that you cast the spell to have the listed effect, namely to perform the actual check, then spend move actions to move the item to yourself I could agree with.

Because you are spending a standard action on concentration you cannot full attack, making Throw Punch more like a cantrip.

How do you come to this conclusion? What is your logic here? I agree with the conclusion, I just want to be clear why we believe that. If you spend a standard action to concentrate 6ou don't have a standard action left to spend making an attack action. That is one way to think about it, but that doesn't make sense as it would invalidate the feat. Another way (which I think is what we are agreeing is the case) is that when you concentrate you are effectively making the spell do the thing, whether that is throw punch or subtle hand or whatever, in which it would do the listed action, no more, no less. A third way of looking at it is that you need to spend time concentrating, but if you do you can attack and keep attacking, making attacked as your BAB would allow. I don't agree with that interpretation as there is nothing in the text of the feat that implies that's possible.

However, Throw Punch is much better than a cantrip because it is a melee attack and thus can add Str to damage and benefit from abilities that boost all melee attacks.

This i don't agree with. While it is different (no penalties for soft cover, or your target being engaged in melee combat, goes against AC instead of touch AC) the test is pretty explicit. "You can use mage hand to strike an opponent within the spell’s range. This is a melee attack that always deals 1d3 points of force damage. The mage hand has an attack bonus equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest." Emphasis mine. I interpret this as the mage had itself is making a melee attack, not the caster, so strength bonuses, or penalties don't apply.

As for whether you threaten in the spell area. If the thing worked like a whip then yes you would provoke the full 30ft+ radius area. However because the ability is throwing a punch I would say that you don't and are in fact mimicking a thrown weapon. There is also the fact that you are not wielding Mage Hand just your normal unarmed strikes.

So I don't think you are "wielding" anything, if you were wielding an immaterial unarmed strike with the spell's reach then you would threaten, as having improved armed strike would mean you threaten at your reach's range so long as the spell is active, but that's not how I interpret it.

Yeah... so sawback sword specifically says sword in the description and seems to suggest its a light or heavy blade weapon. I don't think I'd rule against this in a homebrew game of my own, but I can see the kunai not actually qualifying for this mod.

Still I DO like the flavor of this weapon with the sawback mod added. It would be cool to also have a hollow hilt filled with survival stuff (fishing line, hooks, flint and steel, etc). I go crazy for early game survival and characters with flavorful gear though, so that might be my bias.

As to cost, how would all of you rule this? Is it 2 GP for the kunai, +5 GP for the sawback, then double that for 14 GP on a Cold-Iron version, or would it be 2 GP, doubled to 4 GP for Cold-Iron, then Sawback added for 9 GP?

Like I said I'm not sure it technically works, but I think most GMs would allow it. The kunai is pretty close in form to a dagger, and it's not like it adds game breaking capabilities. Adding the hollow pommel is a cool idea. As far as cost goes I'd expect it to be 9gp following the same rules for a masterwork cold iron weapon.

Say, sorry to hijack the thread a bit but does anyone have a link to this "sawback" modification for weapons? I'm trying to figure the cost of adding that to a weapon and I can't find it anywhere. Thanks!

Andostre got it with the first link. It's not a major mechanical improvement, but a great role play one. The Kunai is described as being a development of a shovel, and can be used as a crowbar without risk. Adding the sawback modification (which may not technically be legal as it's not a in either the light or heavy blade weapon groups) just adds to the utility.

As a weapon it's nice because a cold iron one is only 4 gp, it's simple so almost anyone can use it, and can do either blunt or piercing damage and has a range increment. Basically good for most of the same reasons a dagger is. Good to have both.

Ah it's been a while, but this thread got me. I'm an optimizer at heart, so stats always call to me, but there's a few that are loved for more than raw power. Here are some of my too faves.

Cold iron sawback kunai: Glad to see this is still getting some love here, I'm not sure you can technically make it sawback (depends on how you read the rules) but it's the original do everything utility tool for your level 1 character in a budget.

Cold iron morningstar: Solid damage can be two handed for more, can be finessed as a swashbuckler (big plus) and coverts two damage types while almost everyone is proficient, yes please.

Dueling dagger: All the utility of the dagger, plus more for a little more gold

Sling: Free, adds strength to damage, can't be beat for a level 1 character, and stays relevant for ages as a backup for brawny Martials as a backup

Club: Not as "cool" as a quarterstaff I'll admit, but does almost everything just as well and can be used in 1 hand at need.

Cestus: Undroppable simple blunt weapon with 19-20 crit? Oh and you can do piecing damage

Rapier: Dex to damage at level 1 with the right class. Hard to beat

Lucerne Hammer: Cheap, reach, great damage, two damage types, also just cool, what's not to love.

Now for the more interesting choices.

Elven Thorn Blade: Everything good about the rapier, plus bonus to confirming crits and slashing damage option. Just know you'll never find a one. Also dex to damage via feats is slower

Broken-Back Seax: A bastard sword but better. Same number of feats to use, but you can do piecing damage by default. Requires 15 strength, Very fun "thugbuckler" weapon. Also nice that it's a smaller weapon role play wise, easier to justify getting into places than huge swords/polearms.

Fauchard: crit fishing with reach and a shield. How to maximize DPD with 3/4 BAB and minimul feat investment

Waveblade: Too good to not mention, two damage types, finessible, 18-20 crit, brawlers and monks proficient.

Dwarven Giant sticker: A reach spear with 2d6 p or s, oh and a racial proficiency. Tasty.

Boarding Gaff: A reach double weapon. Two weapon fighting where you don't have to constantly move for full attack. I still haven't done a build for this but it's so so tempting.

There are several others I love, but these are the one I come back to over and over again, honorable mentions include falchion, quarterstaff, gladius, halberd, longbow, and orc horn bow

More later today

Well you took quite a risk, but it paid off big. You deserve some reward :)

So I wanted to get people's thoughts on this build and some advice on other possible options. The idea behind the build is trying to make something that breakers the mold a bit. So without further adieu may I present, the thugbuckler.

Race:
Human
Military Tradition (Broken Back Seax, bolas)
Heart of the Fey

Traits:
Artist of Battle in All Forms (Dirty Trick)
Mock Gladiator
Avarice

Starting stats:
16, 12, 12, 12 ,12,15 (Middle aged age category)

Levels and Feats:
SW: Swashbuckler (Corsair, Noble Fencer)
SY: Slayer (Vanilla)

1: SW1: Dirty Fighting, Level 1 Deeds (Opportune Party, Daring Do, Social Panache)
2: SY1: Studied Target +1, Medium Armor
3: SY2: Improved Dirty Trick, Ranger Combat Style 1 (Enforcer)
4: SY3: Sneak Attack 1d6
5: SW2: Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Aristocratic Discipline
6: SW3: Level 3 Deeds (Kip-up, Eye of the Storm, Menacing Swordplay, Precise Strike)
7: SW4: Greater Dirty Trick, Quick Dirty Trick
8: SW5: Swashbuckler Weapon Training
9: SY4: Power Attack, Slayer Talent(combat reflexes)
10: SY5: Studied Target +2
11: SY6: Ranger Combat Style 2(Shatter Defences), Dirty Trick Master, Sneak Attack 3d6
12: SY7: Stalker, Studied Target as swift action
13: SY8: Dastardly Trick, Slayer Talent (?)
14: SY9: Sneak Attack 4d6
15: SY10: Feat(?), Slayer Talent (Opportunist), Studied Target +3
16-20: SY11-SY15

Skills:
Max ranks in intimidate and perception, the rest scattered as desired. Has most skills as class skills.

Thoughts:
- I know the choice of weapon is suboptimal, but I feel like it fits a thug well, a short heavy blade that hits hard. Also depending on hoelw a GM interpret a "One handed piercing weapon" if can be two handed for extra damage when precision damage won't work. May also offer an opportunity to use an oversized weapon and forgo precise strike for damage dice is gm will let the "one handed piercing weapon" regain panache.

- I feel like this gives you two good ways to contribute by debuffing, and lock in sneak attack. Being able to sneak attack allows for you to auto study your target. Menacinge Swordplay offers another way to intimidate if nonlethal damage won't work

- There are several abilities competing for swift/immediate actions, but the overlap should be manageable. Nobel Fencer helps by replacing charmed life and also give the option of booting an intimidate if needed with social panache.

- The overall product yields a reasonably well rounded melee type with enough skills to contribute outside of combat. The swashbuckler flavor is maintained, though most of the levels end up being Slayer in the end.

- The overall progression is manageable. You don't have to wait until a certain level before being able to manage most if the concepts. You can dirty trick, intimidate, and swashbuler from level 1 you just get better/faster and the build continues.

So, what do you all think? What items would you suggest? Where could the build be tweaked? This is just a theory build, so I don't have a specific level of play in mind.

Baggageboy here. I'm happy to present Vraxiss. The background is fairly light right now, I plan on filling it in more over the next few days, but the general idea is there. Let me know if anything looks out of place.

Thank you :)

Investigator is my go to class, it's just such a fun versatile class. Because it doesn't have a long history there are archetypes for psychic casting, bard casting, inquisitor casting, or the wierd arcane casting that the antiquarian has with the alchemist list or you can just stole with alchemy.

I like skills a lot though so that colors what classes I pick.

I also really like magi. And frequently build those.

Actually the vanilla brawler is one of the better options. I usually use that unless I'm just dipping, the snakebite strike or wild child are decent dips

This topic comes up every now and then. It's usually pretty contentious. A similar case is that of the skald and spell kenning. There's lots of arguing both ways, but you won't get a real answer from the devs on it. You'll have to talk with a gm and understand that they are going to decide if it works or not.

Congrats. Good luck to those hat made it.

Heavy shield says "A heavy steel shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else." So you can't use that hand for anything else. Darkwood doesn't change that.

You are fixating on the weight of the shield which isn't the main difference. The main difference is the method of attachment. A light shield leave the hand free enough to grab your weapon, cast your spell, then shift it back. A heavy shield which gives you the increased ac requires a more restrained method for holding it which means you can't do the same number.

Use an orc horn bow and the vital strike line of feats.

They do indeed function at level 7 since we don't pay for it :D

@ Kazador I know exactly what you mean about potions. Btw baldur's gate is awesome!

Ok, I'm still working out a background, hopefully in conjunction with Valghaz. The crunch is done though.

Character Sheet

He's a very tanky dwarf who can talk with people reasonably well and knows a bit about a lot of things. How and why he is the way he is will come in a few days.

@Kasit. Cool, I'll use that info then. I wanted to ask before, but I didn't want to spoil the surprise :)

Infused spell cartridges is a pretty poor option for a magus as you already have spellstrike. You'd be much better off taking riving strike. You first shot lowers saves, then you follow with your spellstrike shot.

Edit: You still want to have precise shot. Also consider weapon focus and gunslinger. It's nice to know you can keep shooting even if you get swarmed.

Being able to shoot both barrels with vital strike is going to probably be the best single round you can do. Then you reload single barrels with the beneficial bandolier each round. That's probably the best bet.

Ok so I have values up for a bunch of the stuff. Things I think we should sell are yellow. There are several items I was on the fence about, those I left uncolored for now.

So down to the nitty gritty. How do we want to split spending cash? Turion has a looks like he has a lot, but a big portion of that is because he didn't get a Kazad Gravr custom item. Those aren't listed or costed out.

I really want keen which will cost 6k. After that? Maybe a magic armor boost? Or a rod of extend? We are supposed to be heading for a lease combat intensive section so maybe not. I do want to pick up a Traveler's Anytool.

Oh that's a tough one. I've argued for it in the past as a player though. I'll go for it. Given the limitations e8 puts on players it's hard to get too out of hand. You will still need to UMD any that aren't on your list as normal of course.

Spell kenning it probably my favorite ability of any class btw. So good.

Um, sure. If you want a handicap I'm not going to stop you. Just be sure you and your team are on the same page.

Edit: You can always just have an 8 and play it up. But I'm going to hold you to the 7 if you decide to go with it.

I didn't "fall" I was enlighened. It's all about perspective.

There's magical Knack which is a trait and gives you 2 levels. Also I think the orange ioun stone gives you 1. Also if your a half elf you can take the bifricated magic for 1 to two classes

Got to love that dwarven diplomacy :)

Fyrtor thanked Kazador as he accepted the necklace. As he settled the claws around his neck it seemed to him a great weight. It was the mark of a new duty he was accepting and of a pledge he had made his friend. The druid was quiet for a time and seemed to be seemed to be deep in thought.

Fingering the claws he reflected on the purpose of the magic they carried. It was not magic of healing, as the gloves prepared for Mel were, or of knowledge and skill as the anklets Brolin had received, nor was it defensive as the helm of Kazador's ancestors. The claws harnessed and strengthened the power of destruction. Fyrtor contimplated why this would be the gift that he had been proffered. What did it say about him that, if Kazador was right, Torag chose this for him? He did not serve Torag, but the wisdom of gods was not to be disregarded lightly. It bothered him. He did not think of himself as one who sought destruction. He fought to protect those he loved and cared for. Yet he was given not the power to heal or protect, but to ravage and burn. Why?

That would be a very good reason.

The attitudes towards magic should be directly related to how ubiquitous it is in a given setting, and modified as appropriate for a given community. Some communities will be exposed to magic on a near constant basis and so it will not be novel or scary. Though everyone understands that there are bad things that CAN be done with magic they also understand that 99.9% of the time nothing majorly nefarious is going to be done.

If a community has particularly anti magic views then expect social responses to be adjusted appropriately.

In other words this is a part of the setting, and your players shouldn't be caught off guard by this as long as everyone has an understanding of what the basic expectations are.

That type of language is common. There may be many reasons it doesn't include similar language. It may not be intended, or it may be assumed to be understood, likely it's a copy paste of the 3.5 text. Either way, RAW there's nothing saying one way or the other, so you're in GM purview territory.

Note: I am not a super rules person, there are others who are much more versed than I am.

Small contribution, temple guard trait for the +1 on attacks of opportunity with pole arms. Probably worth picking up

So, quietly in Chronicle of Legends a new set of traits were published called Exemplar traits, that allow you to take more than one trait in a given category, and each gives an additional benefit for every two traits that you take in the associated category. They do cost twice as much as a normal trait, but most of them seem totaly worth it.

Link to Exemplar Traits on AoN

I know I for one was extatic to see this as now it's very easy to have an int based socialite at level 1 without having to take a specific class/archetype combination. You can take student of philosophy and bruising intellect. Later you can tack on clever Wordplay to make another skill key off of int as well. And for doing so you get +2 to all of the social skills making you straight up great at the whole face role.

So I was wondering, what other combinations can everyone see that allow for great options that weren't possible or limited before these traits were released?

Reach weapons work very well for clerics. If you go ranged you have to invest a lot of feats to be good at it and you are always deciding whether to shoot, or to cast. Melee you can take advantage of AoOs. Reach means you can keep back fairly well behind your front line while doing so.

I fully expect Magda Luckbender to be here in a few minutes to explain all of the reasons why this is advantagous.

Never a full moment with Gilly around. Lol

That wouldn't happen to be the castle of "aughhhhh" would it?

I found the Lonely Coast setting which has a free PDF. It's pretty nice from what I've seen. I haven't had a chance to dig in too deep yet though.

Obligatory:

"So you're saying there's a chance..."

The problem with too modular a system is that it becomes difficult to keep things balanced. Each new option allows for more combinations, and interactions between combinations can have unintended effects.

When you have to pick packages of abilities things can be more easily balanced while still allowing for unique and powerful options.

Another couple of decent options if you are looking to diversify your skillset, gun chemist(alchemist) and steel hound (investigator). Steel hound requires 2 levels for some reason, and gun chemist doesn't get quick clear, it gets a different ability to accomplish the same thing instead. You probably wouldn't get enough uses though with just a single level.

Heads up guys, I'll be unavailable from Wednesday until Saturday. Please feel free to bot me.

Here's a small but personally irksome one. A bard archetype that gets spell kenning. The closest thing is the wyrm singer skald.

Telin Dotting in :) I won't be pulling him into this one, I'll be submitting another concept I think.

Ok, sounds good. I'll have to check out the recuitment thread you start up. The only thing better than one planacape game is two planescape games :)

Solid story telling, and it adds great depth to the dwarf culture. In a dwarf mentality it's simple justice as they see it. Brtutal and effective.

Sure, but I'm not trying to say that Phantom Blade is better than bladebound, just that if VMC multiclassing is allowed phantom blade is improved greatly. Being able to access both a second pool and magus arcana greatly improve a Phantom Blade. Spellstrike at level 11 is redundant, but it does mean that you can now Spellstrike with a weapon other than your phantom weapon. That's probably will never come up though so it ends up being a lost feat. Still the overall improvement is huge

This is not an exhaustive breakdown of phantom blade vs bladebound, but here goes.

Advantages of a Phantom Blade:

Kurald, I think you should add a note to the Phantom Blade assessment. If VMC multiclassing is allowed VMC magus opens a LOT of options to the phantom blade making it a very effective choice.

Because you have both spell strike and spell combat there are many magus arcana that are normally useless to a VMC magus that the phantom blade gets full use from. The pool helps with the limitation on the phantom blades normal enhancement bonus progression. Also because you can take the extra arcana you can grab more awesome options.

Also, Versatile Design was banned because it allowed Unchained Monks to become proficient with and flurry with every single weapon in the game - which is a little silly if you think about it.

Actually that's not true, versatile design doesn't give a weapon the monk special property it puts it into a fighter weapon group.

You can do that for a brawler though by adding a weapon to the close weapon group,

Having run solo campaigns I think there are a few specific things that a GM can to that can make a huge difference.

First is that players should understand the types of challenges and threats they will be facing and be able to plan their party accordingly. If it's a dungeon crawl they should know that they don't really need much investment into face skills. With a small party everyone has to cover multiple of the traditional roles, so it's hard. knowing what roles you don't need to invest as much in can be very helpful.

Second is give the characters a couple levels higher. There's a couple of ways to go about this, You can start the characters with a couple of NPC levels that's a nice way to fill out a character without speeding up the casters' abilities. It keeps from breaking encounters by having access to a spell that normally they wouldn't. At the same time it gives the PCs a chance to diversify their abilities which is an important thing. You can also just let them be a level or 2 ahead of the curve. that's frequently done and works out nicely.

Third. Avoid save or suck effects. When you only have 2 players a single blown save is half the party gone. It's devastating. It's game over in a solo campaign. If you do have to use save or sucks, use ones that still allow some level of play by the player, staggered instead of unconscious or held for example. Also make sure that your players understand that saves are even more important as party size gets smaller. Multiclassing and save boosting items (which the GM should drop frequently) can help with this, but at the end of the day every save or suck spell a GM uses is basically going to be on steroids because of the higher proportion of the party it effects. Keep this in mind.

Edit: Another option for boosting a smaller party I want to mention. Give the players a couple free traits or a free feat. This can help a lot as well. Also certain campaign traits can help a lot too like trapfinder from the mummy's mask campaign.

So I've put together a miniguide I think is super helpful, but I'd like to get others thoughts and suggestions. Here's a link to a Google doc that will contain a living version, but here's what I have so far. Please give your feedback :) Thanks for checking this out

Baggageboy's Mini Guide to Making the Most of UMD at Low Levels

UMD is often touted as being one of the premier skills. That is absolutely true, however, it's not easy to utilize at low levels. By low level I'm talking levels 1-3 where wealth is right and it's difficult to have a very high skill bonus without an inordinate amount of investment. So let's set the stage. Here's a link to the UMD rules.

Major Takeaways:

Gilly grabs the stone of recall and gives Volo a thumbs up.

I am afraid... lol.