Gunchemist musket build


Advice


Hey all, I'm looking for help building a gun chemist that uses a musket. Specifically I'm having trouble in the attack department due to reloading. Multiclassing isn't an option.

Additional information can be found here.

Sovereign Court

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Take quick draw and buy X muskets.
Draw, fire and drop as many as you have iterative attacks.


Can you use a dragoon musket? It uses 3 round clips. You'd still have a round of time spent reloading after you empty the clip, but if you are going the vital strike route that's three rounds in. Maybe that would be enough to keep you from having too much trouble. Shoot for 3 rounds and use alchemy for a round or two. That's as long as most combats last. Plus the extra range is great.


Sounds like a lot of gold investment


baggageboy wrote:
Can you use a dragoon musket? It uses 3 round clips. You'd still have a round of time spent reloading after you empty the clip, but if you are going the vital strike route that's three rounds in. Maybe that would be enough to keep you from having too much trouble. Shoot for 3 rounds and use alchemy for a round or two. That's as long as most combats last. Plus the extra range is great.

That's not a bad idea but the reload can't be reduced below a standard action. Would the bandolier work with a dragoon musket? If not I think double musket is stronger because it would let me shoot twice per round assuming I use my move action to reload each turn. Also seems difficult to reliably use alchemical ordnance with dragoon musket


Firebug wrote:

Take quick draw and buy X muskets.

Draw, fire and drop as many as you have iterative attacks.

I wouldn't be able to use alchemical ordnance with this


Throwing this out there could I use two weapon fighting with muskets with vestigial arm?


No you can't two weapon fight because of what's frequently refered to as the "hands of effort" FAQ.

You can't reduce the reload time of the dragoon musket, but if you are using vital strike you're only shooting once a round anyways. So you can shoot for 3 rounds without reloading. That's usually going to be enough depending on your campaign.

As far as alchemical ordinance goes, I think you'd be fine, but it's something to check with your gm. You'd probably have to infuse all 3 rounds in the clip, which would be wasteful if you don't actually use them, which is a concern.


baggageboy wrote:

No you can't two weapon fight because of what's frequently refered to as the "hands of effort" FAQ.

You can't reduce the reload time of the dragoon musket, but if you are using vital strike you're only shooting once a round anyways. So you can shoot for 3 rounds without reloading. That's usually going to be enough depending on your campaign.

As far as alchemical ordinance goes, I think you'd be fine, but it's something to check with your gm. You'd probably have to infuse all 3 rounds in the clip, which would be wasteful if you don't actually use them, which is a concern.

Rapid reload can reduce the reload time to a standard action. My concern with the ordnance would be when do I actually infuse them? Do I start with my gun unloaded?


I also should be able to attack twice a turn using the double barrel musket with vital strike at a - 4 penalty. I can do this every turn that I don't move. This would require beneficial bandolier though unlike the dragoon rifle.


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Unless they've altered things...
Gunechemists' ordience count as bombs for purposes of discoveries.

So you can use it with Explosive MIssle Weapon, to load and fire in one standard action.

not sure if you could also infuse into the bullet. Strictly speaking I think you could when you have Fast Ordience.
So lv 8+ you could load and fire a bullet with 1bomb 1 ordience, for the cost of 2 ordience. (conductive I don't think would work Ordenience is not a touch attack like bombs, its a property effect).

Dragoon would work, but you'd only infuse the first shot, as thats the only actual loading going on. I think anyway.

You could use the Explosive Missle trick to load and fire a big blast every 3 attacks, and use 2 as normal bullets without ordience.
1 explosive.
1 normal
1normal
1explosive load
-------
Though I tend to use paddlefoot pistol over muskets, simply because I can keep various alchemical shots in the extra chambers.

Efficient Bandolier is nice though for the 1/shot a round style. Also if its a home game, ask if you can make it a chest not belt item.. because basically every other veresion of the bandolier is a chest item.


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Zwordsman wrote:

Unless they've altered things...

Gunechemists' ordience count as bombs for purposes of discoveries.

So you can use it with Explosive MIssle Weapon, to load and fire in one standard action.

not sure if you could also infuse into the bullet. Strictly speaking I think you could when you have Fast Ordience.
So lv 8+ you could load and fire a bullet with 1bomb 1 ordience, for the cost of 2 ordience. (conductive I don't think would work Ordenience is not a touch attack like bombs, its a property effect).

Dragoon would work, but you'd only infuse the first shot, as thats the only actual loading going on. I think anyway.

You could use the Explosive Missle trick to load and fire a big blast every 3 attacks, and use 2 as normal bullets without ordience.
1 explosive.
1 normal
1normal
1explosive load
-------
Though I tend to use paddlefoot pistol over muskets, simply because I can keep various alchemical shots in the extra chambers.

Efficient Bandolier is nice though for the 1/shot a round style. Also if its a home game, ask if you can make it a chest not belt item.. because basically every other veresion of the bandolier is a chest item.

I hadn't thought about using explosive missile. Seems like it would work better with double or regular musket than the dragoon for the vital strike build since it would let me use it every shot if desired.

Double Musket may be an unnecessary upgrade as I'm not sure if you can fire both barrels when using explosive missle.


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Being able to shoot both barrels with vital strike is going to probably be the best single round you can do. Then you reload single barrels with the beneficial bandolier each round. That's probably the best bet.


Gun Chemists can't use Explosive Missile: They don't get Bombs. They sort of get Explosive Missile at level 1 through their Alchemal Ordinance Class Ability.

You can save up your money and buy an Advance Firearm or Alchemal Cartridges. Either would allow you to reload faster.

If your campaign won't allow for either of those, yo might be better off as a Grenadier Alchemist. I was thinking it would be cool to be a Goblin Grenadier Gunslinger named Godfrey Gloop. He'd take Goblin Gunslinger and Burn! Burn! Burn!


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Gun Chemists can't use Explosive Missile: They don't get Bombs. They sort of get Explosive Missile at level 1 through their Alchemal Ordinance Class Ability.

You can save up your money and buy an Advance Firearm or Alchemal Cartridges. Either would allow you to reload faster.

If your campaign won't allow for either of those, yo might be better off as a Grenadier Alchemist. I was thinking it would be cool to be a Goblin Grenadier Gunslinger named Godfrey Gloop. He'd take Goblin Gunslinger and Burn! Burn! Burn!

They should be able to use it. Alchemical Ordinance counts as bombs. I don't think advanced firearms are an option. Reloading isn't actually a problem anymore if I'm going the single shot route anyway. My problem is semi resolved. Very open to ideas that would let me use a full round attack effectively. Maybe I have a double musket for standard action attacking and a dragoon for the occasional full attack.

Silver Crusade

The Spell Knowledge discovery lets you qualify for Arcane Strike and Spell Cartridges feats, which automatically reload your firearm.

A feat-free option is instead buy a Shadowcraft Musket, which produces its own ammo, and therefore does not need reloading.


Gray Warden wrote:

The Spell Knowledge discovery lets you qualify for Arcane Strike and Spell Cartridges feats, which automatically reload your firearm.

A feat-free option is instead buy a Shadowcraft Musket, which produces its own ammo, and therefore does not need reloading.

Spell cartridges is the way I wanted to go but I was told in the linked thread that alchemical ordnance does not work with them.


Lacking an alternative that would allow me to reliably full attack and use alchemical ordnance, my current idea is double musket in tandem with improved vital strike and focused shot. Use bandolier and move action to reload both barrels. Alternatively use move action and Explosive missle to reload if it's standard action is compatible with the double muskets. Any additional suggestions for improving this? Is deadly aim worth it?


EnigmaticCypher wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Gun Chemists can't use Explosive Missile: They don't get Bombs. They sort of get Explosive Missile at level 1 through their Alchemal Ordinance Class Ability.

You can save up your money and buy an Advance Firearm or Alchemal Cartridges. Either would allow you to reload faster.

If your campaign won't allow for either of those, yo might be better off as a Grenadier Alchemist. I was thinking it would be cool to be a Goblin Grenadier Gunslinger named Godfrey Gloop. He'd take Goblin Gunslinger and Burn! Burn! Burn!

They should be able to use it. Alchemical Ordinance counts as bombs. I don't think advanced firearms are an option. Reloading isn't actually a problem anymore if I'm going the single shot route anyway. My problem is semi resolved. Very open to ideas that would let me use a full round attack effectively. Maybe I have a double musket for standard action attacking and a dragoon for the occasional full attack.

Okay, waitaminute.

You're going to have a Gun Chemist using Alchemal Ordinance to put your bombs in bullets

Alchemal Ordnance wrote:
A gun chemist is adept at using his know-how to infuse his ammunition with volatile chemicals and his own magical reserves. When loading a firearm, he can infuse the ammunition as a free action.... Alchemical ordnance deals damage as normal, plus an amount of fire damage equal to 1d6 + the gun chemist’s Intelligence modifier. The damage of the gun chemist’s alchemical ordnance increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered class level

Then at level 4, you are going to take Explosive Missile, which I was saying a Gunchemist can't take because Gunchemists don't get Bombs.

Explosive Missile wrote:
infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb,
Alchemal Ordnance wrote:
This replaces bombs.

But you've just pointed out that

Alchemal Ordnance wrote:
Alchemical ordnance is treated like an alchemist’s bomb for the purpose of discoveries,

Which means you can use Alchemal Ordnance to put 1 Bomb into your Bullet as a Free Action, then you can use Explosive Missile to pus a 2nd Bomb into that same Bullet and fire it as a Standard Action?!

My compliments, sir, or madam!

EnigmaticCypher wrote:
Lacking an alternative that would allow me to reliably full attack and use alchemical ordnance,

I don't think you should worry about Full Attacking. Explosive Missile locks you into a Standard Action Attack and gives you 1 every turn, which is faster than normal for your basic firearms. Meanwhile, you are effectively packing 2 Bombs into each bullet! I think Vital Strike is totally the way to go, that and Deadly Aim, since you are making Ranged Touch Attacks, anyway.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Which means you can use Alchemal Ordnance to put 1 Bomb into your Bullet as a Free Action, then you can use Explosive Missile to pus a 2nd Bomb into that same Bullet and fire it as a Standard Action?!

My compliments, sir, or madam!

Compliments go to Zwordsman. He's kind of been my personal hero while making this character as many of his posts in other threads have cleared up a lot of my confusion.

With this set up I should be capable of getting two attacks as a standard action and having up to 3 bombs infused in those attacks. I'll also still have my movement each turn if I can aquire a beneficial bandolier.

Another thought swimming through my head is vestigial arms and a second double musket or perhaps a dragoon musket (not two weapon fighting just more ammo capacity). With this I could use a full round attack to shoot four or five rounds(beneficial bandolier). I could repeat this every three turns if I don't use movement. Use move to reload one barrel of second musket. Use bandolier to reload one barrel of primary musket. Use Explosive Missile to reload second barrel of primary musket and fire both. The point of having that option would be to nova down a high challenge opponent by using as many alchemical ordinances as possible.

Not something I'd try to achieve in the early levels for sure though and it might just be a bad idea all around.

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