Casting while using a heavy shield


Rules Questions


It is often said "Clerics need a free hand for casting" and so cannot use heavy shields.
But is this true?

To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.

So somatic and material components need a hand free.

Weight 15 lbs.

You strap a heavy steel shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy steel shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else. Whether wooden or steel, a heavy shield offers the same basic protection and attack benefits, though the two versions respond differently to some spells and effects (such as rusting grasp). A druid can use a heavy wooden shield, but not a heavy steel shield.

Weight 10 lbs.

A heavy wooden shield is essentially the same as a heavy steel shield, except that it responds differently to some spells and effects (such as rusting grasp). A druid can use a heavy wooden shield, but not a heavy steel shield.

So clearly 10# is too heavy.

Weight 6 lbs.

You strap a light steel shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light steel shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it. Whether wooden or steel, a light shield offers the same basic protection and attack benefits, though the two varieties respond differently to some spells and effects (such as rusting grasp). A druid can use a light wooden shield, but not a light steel shield.

Weight 5 lbs.

A light wooden shield is essentially the same as a light steel shield, except it responds differently to some spells and effects (such as rusting grasp). A druid can use a light wooden shield, but not a light steel shield.

But, 6# is not too heavy.

Darkwood wrote:
Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow or spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type.
Mithral wrote:
An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals.

So a Heavy Steel Mithral shield weighs 7.5# and a Heavy Wood Darkwood shield weighs 5#.

I can see a debate about where the boundry between 6# and 10# is, leaving 7.5# in unclear territory, but 5# for the Heavy Darkwood shield is clearly less than 6#, and thus not too heavy to use for casting.

Is anywone aware of an actual rule stating heavy shields cannot be used for casting?

Buckler wrote:

Weight 5 lbs.

You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s AC bonus until your next turn.

It is clear that casting using the shield hand has a penalty. Casting with your other hand, however does not.

Weapon & Hands FAQ:
Weapon & Hands FAQ
Two-Handed Weapons: What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands?
Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, cast a spell as a standard action, and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action; this means the wizard is still able to make attacks of opportunity with the weapon (which requires using two hands).
As with any free action, the GM may decide a reasonable limit to how many times per round you can release and re-grasp the weapon (one release and re-grasp per round is fair).

Clerics frequently are in combat with weapon and shield, yet often cast in combat. Clearly they are temporarily placing the weapon in the other hand (with free actions) so that they can cast, right?

Other thoughts?

/cevah


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You are fixating on the weight of the shield which isn't the main difference. The main difference is the method of attachment. A light shield leave the hand free enough to grab your weapon, cast your spell, then shift it back. A heavy shield which gives you the increased ac requires a more restrained method for holding it which means you can't do the same number.


They both say you strap them on. They do not differentiate how. In real life there may be a difference, but in game, all we have is the text. That is why I posted in Rules.

I have always played heavy = no casting, but I am asking where is that rule? The bolded text gives a reason, that happens to be the weight. Otherwise, how do they differ mechanically as far as casting?

/cecah


I see the mechanical language being “you can’t use your shield hand for anything”, with the rest being fluff.

If the weight did matter, it should be a function of strength; e.g. a person with strength 3 should handle a 10 pound shield less easily than a person with 30 strength. As it is, I interpret that it uses your hand because of how it’s designed/shaped (with a handhold), and it’s designed/shaped the way it is because it’s heavy.


Weight doesnt seem to play a factor, as dark wood contains no such language to circumvent.

Since all we have is text for rules, there exists no such text and therefore no such rule.


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Heavy shield says "A heavy steel shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else." So you can't use that hand for anything else. Darkwood doesn't change that.


Handedness comes up alot when people prefer those more detailed rules, but the game revolves around generic hit points, to hits, armour class, and movement.
I think you are trying to drag a high level rule into finer detail rather than it being a restriction on heavy shield use and spellcasting. I wouldn't try to divine meaning from the interaction with other more detailed rules.

As a Home GM you'll have to come to a decision about what makes more sense for your game and game model. Encumbrance (akin to the >reason< for spellcasting failure) has always been more than the weight of the object and involves density, center of gyration/gravity, torque, and 'balance'. Yeeesss, there's a fair amount of handwaving in there.


Just get a Clawhand Shield

Liberty's Edge

A Heavy shield is a game definition, I doubt that you will find any medieval treatise on combat that call them that way. Generally, they had specific names to specific shapes and sizes of shields.
So, for gaming purposes: Heavy Shield = a shield that totally encoumber your arm and hand and gives you a +2 bonus to AC.


baggageboy wrote:
Heavy shield says "A heavy steel shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else." So you can't use that hand for anything else. Darkwood doesn't change that.

I disagree about darkwood, but leave that for now.

Is this the only text restricting casters from using a heavy shield and casting?

What other text is there?

/cevah

Liberty's Edge

Cevah wrote:
baggageboy wrote:
Heavy shield says "A heavy steel shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else." So you can't use that hand for anything else. Darkwood doesn't change that.

I disagree about darkwood, but leave that for now.

Is this the only text restricting casters from using a heavy shield and casting?

What other text is there?

/cevah

It is a matter of how it is made, not only the weight. A garrote weight less than a longsword, but you still need two hands to use the garrote.

A "heavy shield" is balanced to being used while gripping its handle with a hand. If you don't do that you end with a piece of lumber or steel dangling from your forearm. Somatic components require "measured and
precise movement of the hand", something that is decidedly hard to do in that situation.

There is a piece of text about that in the armor pieces rules: "With the smallest area to protect, arm armor pieces tend to have the lowest armor value of all the piecemeal armor types, with light armor pieces offering little to no protection unless they are part of a complete suit. Because arm armor pieces tend to interfere with hand movements needed for somatic components, they offer the highest spell failure chance.
Table 5-7: Arm Armor Pieces"

Note that it is arm armor piece, not hand armor piece. Several of them don't come with gauntlets.


Diego Rossi wrote:

It is a matter of how it is made, not only the weight. A garrote weight less than a longsword, but you still need two hands to use the garrote.

A "heavy shield" is balanced to being used while gripping its handle with a hand. If you don't do that you end with a piece of lumber or steel dangling from your forearm. Somatic components require "measured and precise movement of the hand", something that is decidedly hard to do in that situation.

There is a piece of text about that in the armor pieces rules: "With the smallest area to protect, arm armor pieces tend to have the lowest armor value of all the piecemeal armor types, with light armor pieces offering little to no protection unless they are part of a complete suit. Because arm armor pieces tend to interfere with hand movements needed for somatic components, they offer the highest spell failure chance.
Table 5-7: Arm Armor Pieces"

Note that it is arm armor piece, not hand armor piece. Several of them don't come with gauntlets.

Well, a garrote is listed as a two handed weapon. A longsword is not. Thus the difference you reference. Where is the text difference for the shields beyond what I pointed out above in the OP?

As to Piecemeal Armor, that is an optional system for Armor not Shields. There is no reference to shields in those rules.

So, what other text is there?

/cevah


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Note, the "free hand" requirement is not actually a requirement: "To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any)." (emphasis mine) A cleric normally needs a "free hand" to hold/manipulate/gesture with a holy symbol/divine focus. A cleric wielding a sacred weapon can still cast while using a heavy shield, since the weapon counts as a holy symbol.

Liberty's Edge

Dragonchess Player wrote:
Note, the "free hand" requirement is not actually a requirement: "To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any)." (emphasis mine) A cleric normally needs a "free hand" to hold/manipulate/gesture with a holy symbol/divine focus. A cleric wielding a sacred weapon can still cast while using a heavy shield, since the weapon counts as a holy symbol.

Somatic components require "measured and precise movement of the hand" (CRB Magic section). Do that while gripping a shield or a weapon.

The Exchange

Diego Rossi wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
Note, the "free hand" requirement is not actually a requirement: "To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any)." (emphasis mine) A cleric normally needs a "free hand" to hold/manipulate/gesture with a holy symbol/divine focus. A cleric wielding a sacred weapon can still cast while using a heavy shield, since the weapon counts as a holy symbol.
Somatic components require "measured and precise movement of the hand" (CRB Magic section). Do that while gripping a shield or a weapon.

The Somatic portion of a spell are described with the:

"Components: V, S, M/DF" (Bolding mine)

The "M/DF" defines the need for Material Components or a Divine Focus. When it appears, then the caster needs to manipulate either "Material Components" (and is an Arcane caster) or "Divine Focus" (Divine caster and it is normally a holy symbol). What Dragonchess was trying to say (I believe) is that a cleric wielding a sacred weapon has his Divine Focus in hand, and so doesn't need the "free hand" for the "M/DF" Component requirement.

Now, the "S" (bolded above) is another matter, the CRB does clearly state (pg. 213. paragraph 3, last line.) that "You must have at least one hand free to provide a Somatic Component."

I would normally assume that the SAME free hand can be used to do both the "S" component and the "M/DF" during the spell casting. Otherwise it would seem a caster would require TWO free hands when casting a spell with both "S" and "M/DF" components...


Clawhand Shield

I think this item does well in cementing that you can't provide those components.

Additionally, the claws can animate to perform the somatic components of a spell as long as the arm holding the shield would be able to provide these components if it weren’t carrying a shield. As a result, the shield has no arcane spell failure chance.

Liberty's Edge

@Cevah

CRB wrote:

Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an offhand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a twohanded weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler’s AC bonus until your next turn.

You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s AC bonus until your next turn. You can’t make a shield bash with a buckler.

Explicit permission to cast spells with somatic components.

CRB wrote:
Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

Explicit permission to carry items in the shield hand.

CRB wrote:
Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else.

Explicit statement that you can't use the shield hand for anything else.

So what do you want? A statement in triple copy by a government agency?


@Diego Rossi
This is why I ended my OP with:

I wrote:
Clerics frequently are in combat with weapon and shield, yet often cast in combat. Clearly they are temporarily placing the weapon in the other hand (with free actions) so that they can cast, right?

I would not be casting with the shield hand, but the shield hand would hold my weapon while I cast with the weapon hand (which is now empty).

My argument is that the reduced weight of the darkwood would allow carrying the weapon in the shield hand.

/cevah


There is a very very long history of shield being played as we have said and you agree it is the precident. If you don't like that you'll have to get your specific GM to agree with your different interpretation of the rules. If he will agree, cool you're good. Don't bother trying to make the case at any organised events though as you'll cause yourself more trouble than it's worth.

This simply isn't a fight worth fighting. Just use a light shield if you want to cast a spell. It's only 1 ac different and only 1 size dice different in the case of bashing.

Liberty's Edge

Cevah wrote:

@Diego Rossi

This is why I ended my OP with:
I wrote:
Clerics frequently are in combat with weapon and shield, yet often cast in combat. Clearly they are temporarily placing the weapon in the other hand (with free actions) so that they can cast, right?

I would not be casting with the shield hand, but the shield hand would hold my weapon while I cast with the weapon hand (which is now empty).

My argument is that the reduced weight of the darkwood would allow carrying the weapon in the shield hand.

/cevah

There is any point in the description of the darkwood where it says that it reduces the number of hands needed?

You are inventing an ability that don't exist. Fine if this was "Advice" or "General discussion", not fine in the section labelled "Rules questions".


Diego Rossi wrote:
There is any point in the description of the darkwood where it says that it reduces the number of hands needed?

No, it does not reduce the hands from one to zero.

Both light and heavy shields use one hand.

/cevah

Liberty's Edge

Cevah wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
There is any point in the description of the darkwood where it says that it reduces the number of hands needed?

No, it does not reduce the hands from one to zero.

Both light and heavy shields use one hand.

/cevah

And buckers 0. As it uses a hand, without a rule saying it allows you to use the hand to hold something, you can't hold anything.

Mithrail specifically says that the armor count as a category lower for all effects besides proficiency. That is the kind of rule, applied to shields, that you need to have to get permission to hold something in the hand used to hold a heavy shield.
It is very simple, a heavy shield is a shield that gives +2 to AC and doesn't allow you to use your shield hand for anything.
Without special permission, a shield that allows you to use something in the shield hand isn't a heavy shield.

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