"Monk Weapon" Proficiency and Kyton Style?


Rules Questions


So... I've been fiddling around with a character build concept involving the Spiked Chain, and noticed something that I wanted to make sure was correct. For clarification, this build is using the Master of Many Styles Monk with two levels dip into Unarmed Fighter.

Both the Unarmed Fighter and the Master of Many Styles Monk can select a style feat without meeting the prerequisites. The Kyton Style feat normally requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) in order to obtain, but a MoMS Monk or Unarmed Fighter can select this feat without the prerequisites.

The Unarmed Fighter is proficient with all Monk Weapons.

The Kyton Style feat says "When using this style, you treat spiked chains as if they had the monk special weapon feature."

Does this mean that an Unarmed Fighter is proficient with Spiked Chains while using the Kyton Style feat? How does this function for other feat prerequisites that use the Spiked Chain?


No. Treating it as a "Monk Weapon" means that you can flurry with it. Nothing to do with proficiency.


MrCharisma wrote:
No. Treating it as a "Monk Weapon" means that you can flurry with it. Nothing to do with proficiency.

thats terrible wording for the spiked chain if that’s true.


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It depends on whether 'monk weapons' under unarmed fighter means weapons in the monk weapon group as used by fighters, or if it means weapons with the monk special weapon feature. Adding the monk special weapon feature doesn't add a weapon to the monk weapon group, unfortunately.

Edit: and no I don't know which is the case.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TheMonkeyFish wrote:

So... I've been fiddling around with a character build concept involving the Spiked Chain, and noticed something that I wanted to make sure was correct. For clarification, this build is using the Master of Many Styles Monk with two levels dip into Unarmed Fighter.

Both the Unarmed Fighter and the Master of Many Styles Monk can select a style feat without meeting the prerequisites. The Kyton Style feat normally requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) in order to obtain, but a MoMS Monk or Unarmed Fighter can select this feat without the prerequisites.

The Unarmed Fighter is proficient with all Monk Weapons.

The Kyton Style feat says "When using this style, you treat spiked chains as if they had the monk special weapon feature."

Does this mean that an Unarmed Fighter is proficient with Spiked Chains while using the Kyton Style feat? How does this function for other feat prerequisites that use the Spiked Chain?

CRB wrote:
Monk: A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows (see Chapter 3).

That is all you get from the monk weapon special feature. So the Kyton Style feat doesn't give proficiency in the Spiked chain.

If other feats require the proficency in Spiked chain, the Kyton Style feat doesn't give it.


A "monk weapon" as described by the CRB is a weapon with the monk special feature (the text Diego Rossi quoted is where the index leads to, and is indeed from the special features description). While in Kyton Style's stance, the spiked chain coutns as a "monk weapon", thus you have proficiency from Unarmed Fighter.

Whether you can take feats like Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) depends a bit on the GM - see this discussion, with the added isse that by strict RAW, a style feat stance once entered never ends.
Note that for Kyton Cut/Shield, you need the actual EWP feat, not merely proficiency.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Derklord wrote:

A "monk weapon" as described by the CRB is a weapon with the monk special feature (the text Diego Rossi quoted is where the index leads to, and is indeed from the special features description). While in Kyton Style's stance, the spiked chain coutns as a "monk weapon", thus you have proficiency from Unarmed Fighter.

Whether you can take feats like Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) depends a bit on the GM - see this discussion, with the added isse that by strict RAW, a style feat stance once entered never ends.
Note that for Kyton Cut/Shield, you need the actual EWP feat, not merely proficiency.

Read the feat:

Horror adventures, p. 89 wrote:

Kyton Style (Combat, Style)

Your fighting style emulates the disciplined nature of the kytons, with passion and pain held tightly in chains.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Knowledge (planes) 3 ranks, ki pool class feature.
Benefit: When using this style, you treat spiked chains as if they had the monk special weapon feature. Additionally, if you have Stunning Fist, you can spend 1 point from your ki pool to make a Stunning Fist attack with your spiked chain instead of an unarmed strike. This still costs a use of Stunning Fist as normal.

It don't count as a "monk weapon", it is treated as if it had "the monk special weapon feature". That special feature gives you only the ability to use Flurry of blows. The feat adds the ability to use Stunning Fist.

It doesn't give the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and doesn't make it a Monk weapon.


Diego Rossi wrote:
It don't count as a "monk weapon", it is treated as if it had "the monk special weapon feature".

That is literally the same.

Seriously, open your CRB, go to page 574, that's the index. Look for "monk weapons", it refers to pages 57 and 145. The former is the Monk description where it says "A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.", nothing helpful there. The later is the "special features" section of the weapon rules, which you already quoted.

To repeat it for clarity, the CRB uses the phrase "monk weapon" to describe a weapon with the monk special quality. That is the only rule we have on what a "monk weapon" is.

Diego Rossi wrote:
It doesn't give the Exotic Weapon Proficiency

No one said a f+*+ing word about that!

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Derklord wrote:


To repeat it for clarity, the CRB uses the phrase "monk weapon" to describe a weapon with the monk special quality. That is the only rule we have on what a "monk weapon" is.

Diego Rossi wrote:
It doesn't give the Exotic Weapon Proficiency
No one said a f%%~ing word about that!
Derklord wrote:

A "monk weapon" as described by the CRB is a weapon with the monk special feature (the text Diego Rossi quoted is where the index leads to, and is indeed from the special features description). While in Kyton Style's stance, the spiked chain coutns as a "monk weapon", thus you have proficiency from Unarmed Fighter.

You are arguing that he get proficiency in the weapon when using Kyton stile, but that is because it changes the weapon group? Some further contortion of logic?

What is in the monk weapons group is defined in the fighter pages of the CRB. And reiterated in the UE.

And as a finish:

FAQ - UC wrote:

Monk Weapons: If a weapon is specified as a monk weapon, does that mean that monks are automatically proficient with that weapon?

No. It means that they can use this weapon while using flurry of blows. It does not mean that it is added to the list of weapons that a monk is proficient with, unless the weapon description says otherwise.
posted October 2011

]So, even if it becomes a monk weapon, a monk doesn't become proficient in it.


Diego Rossi wrote:
So, even if it becomes a monk weapon, a monk doesn't become proficient in it.

I think the proficiency would come from Unarmed Fighter, which states that it is proficient with all Monk weapons.

Quote:
An unarmed fighter is proficient with all monk weapons, including exotic monk weapons.

'

So in my opinion the combination would give you proficiency, as I'm very positive that the Unarmed Fighter is referring to the Monk special weapon feature.
But there are a number of people who disagree with the idea that adding a weapon to a set of weapons you have proficiency with would work, perhaps rightfully so.

TheMonkeyFish wrote:
How does this function for other feat prerequisites that use the Spiked Chain?

'

Here's an old post made by Sean K Reynolds in 2012. According to this a proficiency would count for feat prerequisites, even if it is temporary.

====

Also, you may want to consider dipping into Style Shifter for one level and vanilla Fighter the second.
Better saves, two natural attacks (alternate for other things than claws), and an additional effect if your second style feat is any of the animal-named ones.


Diego Rossi wrote:
You are arguing that he get proficiency in the weapon when using Kyton stile, but that is because it changes the weapon group? Some further contortion of logic?

I made absolutely no reference to weapon groups. Kyton Style does not make the spiked chain a member of the monk weapon group.

Diego Rossi wrote:
So, even if it becomes a monk weapon, a monk doesn't become proficient in it.

Again, I never said otherwise. The proficiency comes from the Unarmed Fighter level.

Wait, are we only having this whole discussion here because you didn't realise that Unarmed Fighter is an archetype?

To make it perfectly clear, this is my argument:
Kyton Style says "When using this style, you treat spiked chains as if they had the monk special weapon feature.". The CRB uses the phrase "monk weapon" in both the index and the specific description to denote a weapon with the monk special weapon feature. Since "An unarmed fighter is proficient with all monk weapons", a character with that archetype is proficient with spiked chains when using Kyton Style. No Monk levels are involved in this argument.

Liberty's Edge

I know the tension here is high but just let me say this.

One of you is incorrect- You do NOT get weapon proficiency for the Spiked Chain just because you can use it like a Monk Weapon, the only that that does is allow you to use it in Flurries, the key words here are "treat as if" which does not ACTUALLY make it a Monk Weapon.

Derklord, you're incorrect, you need to get proficiency DIRECTLY for the weapon, you cannot rely on on Kyton Style and the Unarmed Fighter Prof to jump through the hoops for you, it just doesn't work that way.


Then explain why not. Explain why "treates as if" is fine for the Monk's Flurry of Blows class feature, but not for the Unarmed Fighter's Weapon and Armor Proficiency class feature. Explain why "as if" is treated differently for different class features.

How about instead of saying "it just doesn't work that way", you make an actual argument based on some rules?

Liberty's Edge

You don't seem to be listening, the reasons have been spelled out quite eloquently above but I'll just post the relevant FAQ.

FAQ wrote:

If a weapon is specified as a monk weapon, does that mean that monks are automatically proficient with that weapon?

No. It means that they can use this weapon while using flurry of blows. It does not mean that it is added to the list of weapons that a monk is proficient with, unless the weapon description says otherwise.

Source

This has been specifically rules on already, this thread has no reason to exist.


Themetricsystem wrote:

You don't seem to be listening, the reasons have been spelled out quite eloquently above but I'll just post the relevant FAQ.

FAQ wrote:

If a weapon is specified as a monk weapon, does that mean that monks are automatically proficient with that weapon?

No. It means that they can use this weapon while using flurry of blows. It does not mean that it is added to the list of weapons that a monk is proficient with, unless the weapon description says otherwise.

This has been specifically rules on already, this thread has no reason to exist.

I had trouble following the link, which appears to be broken. Here's one that should work.

FAQ

***

Now keep in mind that this FAQ is from 2011, and about the chained monk. The chained monk that doesn't get proficiency with Monk weapons. The chained monk that isn't even slightly relevant to the question at hand.

So yeah, this FAQ doesn't apply to this situation. At all.

Liberty's Edge

I'd just be repeating the things said here again, and that's a pointless exercise.

I agree with Diego here.

Besides all that, I'm not sure why you'd even really WANT to take Kyton Style as this Character is only going to be able to benefit from its use with Stunning Blow attacks since they don't have Flurry of Blows anyhow, the primary benefit to the Style in general is sorta wasted since MoMS trades FoB away.


This looks pretty obvious that TMS is correct. I don't believe you'd be able to use the spiked chain without penalties for non-proficiency in this situation.


In 2011 someone asked if monks were automatically proficient with weapons that have the Monk special weapon feature.

Special Weapon Features: Monk wrote:
A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows.
FAQ wrote:

Monk Weapons: If a weapon is specified as a monk weapon, does that mean that monks are automatically proficient with that weapon?

No. It means that they can use this weapon while using flurry of blows. It does not mean that it is added to the list of weapons that a monk is proficient with, unless the weapon description says otherwise.

'

The answer was no. Chained Monks are not proficient with (all) Monk weapons, as we can see from the class description.

Monk Weapon Profiency wrote:
Monks are proficient with the brass knuckles, cestus, club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, spear and temple sword.

'

Now, let's compare the weapon proficiency of the Chained Monk and the Unarmed Fighter.

Unarmed Fighter Proficiency wrote:
An unarmed fighter is proficient with all monk weapons, including exotic monk weapons.

'

So the Unarmed Fighter is proficient with all Monk weapons, in clear contrast to the chained monk. The above FAQ simply doesn't apply to the question being asked, since we're not discussing the chained monk's proficiency.


(1) does unarmed fighter get Proficiency with weapons that have the monk special weapon feature? (Kyton style references a “monk special Weapon feature”, Unchained Monk references Proficiency with weapons that have the “monk special weapon quality” and unarmed fighter gives Proficiency to “monk weapons”. We interpret those three phrases as meaning the same thing, but you get where this will get complicated and less than 100% clear).
(2) does “[treating spiked chains] as if they had the monk special weapon feature” include for the purpose of class features that grant proficiency in weapons with the monk special weapon quality? (I mean, why wouldn’t it, but see above thread for how this may be a controversial point)
(3) does the game continuously check during combat what proficiencies you currently have and what feats you currently meet prereqs for? (Yes, see how brawler flurry works as two weapon fighting feat)
(4) is an irrelevant chained monk FAQ applicable here? (No. But see above thread)
(5) does Proficiency with spiked chain count as having the “Exotic Weapon Proficiency(spiked chain)” feat for prerequisites?
(6) does meeting prereqs temporarily qualify you to select a feat?

Problem isn’t a “no, that doesn’t work”. It’s that the GM has to agree with you on a lot of different points for it to work (I think it does work).


@Themetricsystem: This question is regarding the Unarmed Fighter archetype for the Fighter class - not the Chained Monk class. I also looked through most of the Rules Questions threads available - and could find nothing that had answered my question.

That being said, it seems that without taking a level in Unchained Monk, the general answer is "GM Discretion" - as the Archetype in question never specifies if the proficiency given was for the Monk Weapon fighting group or for weapons with the Monk weapon property, unless this is later cleared by official publishers.

-----

Thank you for everyone who took the time to answer this request. I apologize if my question caused some tension between posters, but I do thank you for giving your time towards this request.

Hopefully the publishers can clarify this request later on.


Seeing that the core rulebook does treat monk weapon = weapon with the monk special quality, I now think the unarmed fighter does gain proficiency in the spiked chain if they snag kyton style. FWIW.


TheMonkeyFish wrote:
the Archetype in question never specifies if the proficiency given was for the Monk Weapon fighting group or for weapons with the Monk weapon property

If it's the former, this profuces some issues as the phrase "monk weapon" is directly tied to the ability to flurry with the weapon:

"A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows." CRB pg. 57
"A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows (see Chapter 3)." CRB pg. 145
These are the two pages the index in the CRB lists for "monk weapons".

Now, if "monk weapon" meant "weapon in the monk weapon group", you could flurry with any weapon in the monk weapon group, and the monk special weapon quality would be meaningless (apart from stuff like the unMonk's proficiency, written 6 years later). It also means you could flurry with any weapon modified with Versatile Design (monk group), as well as the Tri-point double-edged Sword and the Urumi, both of which do not have the monk special quality.
The same would be true for Unarmed Fighter's proficiency, of course.

Even Themetricsystem supports this view: The FAQ he quoted addresses the topic of "a monk weapon", and he claims the FAQ was "relevant", which can only true if "monk weapon" is something that applies to Kyton Style. By calling that FAQ relevant, he also admitted that his previous argument of "the key words here are "treat as if" which does not ACTUALLY make it a Monk Weapon." is wrong, because if it was true, the FAQ would again not be relevant.


Derklord wrote:
Now, if "monk weapon" meant "weapon in the monk weapon group", you could flurry with any weapon in the monk weapon group, and the monk special weapon quality would be meaningless (apart from stuff like the unMonk's proficiency, written 6 years later).

The point of my statement wasn't whether or not the weapon can be used as a Flurry weapon or not - but whether or not the weapon counts towards proficiency. Every other source of proficiency that points out a fighting group specifically calls out that fighting group (Example: The Brawler's "proficient with all simple weapons plus the handaxe, short sword, and weapons from the close fighter weapon group").

The Unarmed Fighter does NOT have this specification on their proficiency list (simply saying "proficient with all monk weapons, including exotic monk weapons.").

The fact that this archetype does NOT specify between Fighter Group or Special Weapon Property leaves this to GM Discretion until an FAQ or Clarification is released. Clearly there is missing text, and until that missing text is filled in, there is no way to be 100% certain.

P.S.: There is a reason why the Versatile Design weapon was banned in PFS, lol.


Just a reminder not all Monk weapon group weapons are Monk Special Property Weapons and not all Monk Special Property weapons are monk group weapons.

The question is whether or not UC monks and unarmed fighters are proficient with Monk Group weapons or Monk Property weapon.


Talonhawke wrote:
The question is whether or not UC monks and unarmed fighters are proficient with Monk Group weapons or Monk Property weapon.

Unchained Monk: "Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, short sword, shortspear, shuriken, siangham, sling, spear, and any weapon with the monk special weapon quality."

To be clear, the actual question is only for the Unarmed Fighter - because it does not clarify between the two (like how Brawler or Unchained Monk does).

Does anyone know where I can request text clarification? (Edit) - Specifically because there is apparent text missing from this Archetype.


TheMonkeyFish wrote:
The point of my statement wasn't whether or not the weapon can be used as a Flurry weapon or not - but whether or not the weapon counts towards proficiency.

Please, don't you start with the "let's not properly read Derklord's posts" thing that seems to be a theme in this thread, too!

I explicitly said that "The same would be true for Unarmed Fighter's proficiency, of course." - did you not read that sentence? Did you think I posted as an early april's fool joke?

Both cMonk's Flurry of Blows and Unarmed Fighter's Proficiencies use the same phrase, "monk weapon", and thus should be treated the same.

TheMonkeyFish wrote:

Every other source of proficiency that points out a fighting group specifically calls out that fighting group (...).

The Unarmed Fighter does NOT have this specification on their proficiency list (...).

Isn't that a kinda proof that Unarmed Fighter is not talking about a weapon group? What is so hard to understand about the concept of "if the phrase 'weapon group' is not mentioned, weapon groups aren't involved"?

Seriously, there is no text missing (although it isn't as clear as it should be), and there is no GM input needed. The CRB uses the term "monk weapon" to descripe a weapon with the monk special property, this is a fact.* Why do I need to make the same statement again and again and again and again when all it should take is for people to open a CRB and look at the f#*+ing index?

*) You want more profe beyond what I've already posted regarding the index and the use of that phrase in the sweapon quality description? The cMonk doesn't reference weapon groups, even though it's the only thing in the CRB interacting with "monk weapons". If the weapon group was meant by that term, the Flurry description wouldn't need to say "unarmed strike or a special monk weapon" as unarmed strikes are already in the monk weapon group. When they updated that line for unchained, they changed it to explicitly say "unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality".

TheMonkeyFish wrote:
P.S.: There is a reason why the Versatile Design weapon was banned in PFS, lol.

Because it's the Official Home of 'Martial's Can't Have Nice Things'? Versatile Design doesn't actually do that much.


@Derklord - Please calm down... If you anger this easily on a simple misunderstanding, maybe the Internet isn't the best place for you to be...

Also, Versatile Design was banned because it allowed Unchained Monks to become proficient with and flurry with every single weapon in the game - which is a little silly if you think about it.


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TheMonkeyFish wrote:

Also, Versatile Design was banned because it allowed Unchained Monks to become proficient with and flurry with every single weapon in the game - which is a little silly if you think about it.

Actually that's not true, versatile design doesn't give a weapon the monk special property it puts it into a fighter weapon group.

You can do that for a brawler though by adding a weapon to the close weapon group,


baggageboy wrote:
TheMonkeyFish wrote:

Also, Versatile Design was banned because it allowed Unchained Monks to become proficient with and flurry with every single weapon in the game - which is a little silly if you think about it.

Actually that's not true, versatile design doesn't give a weapon the monk special property it puts it into a fighter weapon group.

You can do that for a brawler though by adding a weapon to the close weapon group,

Yep as to the why it was banned now I wanna see if I can find an answer


@Baggageboy @Talonhawke - Ah, my apologies... I misremembered the Versatile Design. I thought it was 500gp to give a weapon any Weapon trait in the game. I just looked it up and confirmed, its 500gp to add the weapon into any weapon group.

Same general idea though. Lol (I knew it was something like "It gives Class XXX the ability to use every weapon printed").

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