Constitution


Kineticist Class


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Just an overview with no deep dive yet...

But I'm a bit confused why, legacy aside, this class keys off CON. Did I overlook something? It doesn't seem to do anything out of the ordinary for a kineticist that it doesn't do for anyone else. Is it just a gate to keep them a half-step behind full martial proficiency?


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As far as I can tell, its just Class DC, but nothing to do with damage like 1e.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Flavorfully, Kineticists use their body to channel elements, so constitution makes sense from that perspective. Though having some kind of burn-like mechanic would certainly help make that flavor truly realized via mechanics.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Con needs to be part of the damage on both impulses and normal blasts.

Fire has a 1d6 damage impulse.. It's literally worse than a cantrip.

Wayfinders

Yeah, from the perspective of the "your body is a literal gate to the elemental planes" flavor, Con does make sense, way moreso in my mind than for the 1e iteration.

Mechanically though, it is rather crummy as-is, between the handicap to your attacks (something that stings especially badly on a class that's all about Blasting™) the fact that by itself, Con as a key ability score offers rather back-loaded/lowkey benefits (max HP, Fort saves, and class DCs).


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I want to be using Constitution for significantly more than what it currently has if it’s supposed to be the class ability. It doesn’t matter how good the flavor is if there’s not much use to it, and I say that as one of the most flavor-forward people on these forums.

Scarab Sages

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Being partway through the document, I'm thinking that unless CON does something more obvious the Key Ability should be Str or Dex and Flexible Blasts should be built into that (Finesse on Dex, Brutal on Str). A lot of good points have already been made on why CON isn't feeling right, I don't think I need to rehash them.

Silver Crusade

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I haven't read through everything yet but insofar as I can tell Con's used for DC, and thus counteract checks, and in at least one instance determining targets within an aura. Still reading though! Seems a bit like Thaumaturge in that regard; it's a "martial" that gets benefit off of a stat that isn't used directly in attack/damage, but it does at least boost HP and Fort saves.

ALL that being said, a feat for a burn effect could be interesting, but not having it baseline feels alright with how they've built the class. Opinion may vary, still going over things, this is just knee jerk reaction.


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Verzen wrote:
Fire has a 1d6 damage impulse.. It's literally worse than a cantrip.

1. The choice of using CON as the orimary stat may pose some challenges as is. But that won't be solved by "adding CON to damage"

2. It's not worse than a cantrip. Not by a long shot.


I get that they might want to avoid adding both Str and Con to a damage roll for melee blasts or something. Maybe if there were rider effects based on CON for Overflow impulses that would help make the stat feel impactful beyond the bonus to DC.


Tweezer wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Fire has a 1d6 damage impulse.. It's literally worse than a cantrip.

1. The choice of using CON as the orimary stat may pose some challenges as is. But that won't be solved by "adding CON to damage"

2. It's not worse than a cantrip. Not by a long shot.

It’s a messy comparison with a cantrip. 1 action to attack instead of 2 to cast is a significant improvement, but the damage invites the comparison; a flat 1d6 fire versus what is almost certainly 1d4+4 fire damage, between a fire blast and Produce Flame.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Tweezer wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Fire has a 1d6 damage impulse.. It's literally worse than a cantrip.

1. The choice of using CON as the orimary stat may pose some challenges as is. But that won't be solved by "adding CON to damage"

2. It's not worse than a cantrip. Not by a long shot.

So two actions for 1d6 damage OR 1d4+charisma/int

It's also +3 for 1d6 damage so at level 20, you'll be at 10d4+6 with a basic cantrip and with this impulse you'll be at 3d6 at level 20.

Cantrip dmg is 16 to 46 or avg of 31 damage with a bell curve greatly favoring middling damage.

3d6 column means it deals 10.5 dmg on average. Granted that singular space deals 3 fire damage if someone enters it.

At level 1 it deals 5-8 damage for the cantrip vs 1-6 damage. Avg of 6.5 vs avg of 3.5. If it cost of one action and you could do it 3 times in a round, that would be one thing. But you can only do it once per round... meaning that it's very much worse than a cantrip.


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keftiu wrote:
Tweezer wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Fire has a 1d6 damage impulse.. It's literally worse than a cantrip.

1. The choice of using CON as the orimary stat may pose some challenges as is. But that won't be solved by "adding CON to damage"

2. It's not worse than a cantrip. Not by a long shot.

It’s a messy comparison with a cantrip. 1 action to attack instead of 2 to cast is a significant improvement, but the damage invites the comparison; a flat 1d6 fire versus what is almost certainly 1d4+4 fire damage, between a fire blast and Produce Flame.

Still not worse than a cantrip.

1d4+4 = 6,5 average damage for 2 actions.

Assuming you build with a 16 strength

1d6+3 = 6,5 average damage for 1 action.

I think the comparisson that makes more sense is to compare it to weapons, and it does seem rather on par with shortbow/shortsword


Maybe I'm missing something.

@verzen Where are you seeing that you can only Elemental Blast once per turn?


Verzen wrote:
Tweezer wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Fire has a 1d6 damage impulse.. It's literally worse than a cantrip.

1. The choice of using CON as the orimary stat may pose some challenges as is. But that won't be solved by "adding CON to damage"

2. It's not worse than a cantrip. Not by a long shot.

So two actions for 1d6 damage OR 1d4+charisma/int

It's also +3 for 1d6 damage so at level 20, you'll be at 10d4+6 with a basic cantrip and with this impulse you'll be at 3d6 at level 20.

Cantrip dmg is 16 to 46 or avg of 31 damage with a bell curve greatly favoring middling damage.

3d6 column means it deals 10.5 dmg on average. Granted that singular space deals 3 fire damage if someone enters it.

At level 1 it deals 5-8 damage for the cantrip vs 1-6 damage. Avg of 6.5 vs avg of 3.5. If it cost of one action and you could do it 3 times in a round, that would be one thing. But you can only do it once per round... meaning that it's very much worse than a cantrip.

1, it goes to 4d6 with major striking, and 2, you can use the blast as many times on your turn that you have actions for. There is only a limit on overflow actions


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You only need to Gather once to use the blast. While it’s technically two actions on the first turn of combat, you’re only using one every time following that unless you use an Overflow ability.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Saedar wrote:

Maybe I'm missing something.

@verzen Where are you seeing that you can only Elemental Blast once per turn?

I'm talking about te column impulse, flame eruption**


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You can gather outside of battle as well, it's basically a weapon that you have draw it before battle.


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keftiu wrote:
You only need to Gather once to use the blast. While it’s technically two actions on the first turn of combat, you’re only using one every time following that unless you use an Overflow ability.

You can Gather Element out of combat as well, same as drawing your weapon.

Scarab Sages

Onkonk wrote:
keftiu wrote:
You only need to Gather once to use the blast. While it’s technically two actions on the first turn of combat, you’re only using one every time following that unless you use an Overflow ability.
You can Gather Element out of combat as well, same as drawing your weapon.

I think gathering elements is more apt to compare to Stances. There are actions that end it and (some of the time) you're expected to switch between them.


Con is good to have more health so when you in melee and use an impulse action, if the enemy has attack of opportunity, you have health to help survive.

Scarab Sages

Stagnantmoon wrote:
Con is good to have more health so when you in melee and use an impulse action, if the enemy has attack of opportunity, you have health to help survive.

seems a poor compensation to me


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

If Paizo is dedicated to having CON as the Key Ability Score, then kineticists need to be able to add CON to damage, since that would be a reasonable trade-off for being effectively -1 behind other martials for most of the game.

Alternatively, allow them to take STR or DEX as their key ability score so they can actually hit things with Elemental Blast.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

CON to damage seems like a lot, particularly for the ranged options. What if it were CON to hit, but the normal STR to damage when applicable? Would give players a reason to be excited about CON without putting their base attacks ahead of the normal curve (noting that their myriad special abilities will do so in small bursts, as is healthy).

The gate allows CON to make more sense, but it's still mechanically quite wonky to my eyes.


I don't think anybody uses a d4 weapon for damage except with damage boosters, but that's what air is expected to do.


QuidEst wrote:
I don't think anybody uses a d4 weapon for damage except with damage boosters, but that's what air is expected to do.

Air seems to be about spamming Aerial Boomerang at early levels, to be honest, with Cycling Blast at level 6 to toss in a weak blast. A potential 4d4 in a 60-foot line with 'full' scaling (DC 17) is much better than a piddly 1d4 agile blast. Also scales up every two levels, which not everything does for kineticist.

Scarab Sages

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manbearscientist wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
I don't think anybody uses a d4 weapon for damage except with damage boosters, but that's what air is expected to do.
Air seems to be about spamming Aerial Boomerang at early levels, to be honest, with Cycling Blast at level 6 to toss in a weak blast. A potential 4d4 in a 60-foot line with 'full' scaling (DC 17) is much better than a piddly 1d4 agile blast. Also scales up every two levels, which not everything does for kineticist.

seems to be an issue with blasts in general, they are presented and in our perception as a main attack, but are written as supplementary to the attacks you need to spend a feat on. i don't think i really like it that way.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Verzen wrote:
Saedar wrote:

Maybe I'm missing something.

@verzen Where are you seeing that you can only Elemental Blast once per turn?

I'm talking about te column impulse, flame eruption**

Okay just to be sure you do realize the Level (+3) heightening is talking about Class level and not Spell level right?

Eruption should be 7d6 at 19th level.


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Skabb wrote:
Flavorfully, Kineticists use their body to channel elements, so constitution makes sense from that perspective. Though having some kind of burn-like mechanic would certainly help make that flavor truly realized via mechanics.

Personally, I think the players class works well without burn, but I do agree that CON should be more integral to the class. I think they should bring back damage keying off of CON.

Scarab Sages

DiskJokky wrote:
Skabb wrote:
Flavorfully, Kineticists use their body to channel elements, so constitution makes sense from that perspective. Though having some kind of burn-like mechanic would certainly help make that flavor truly realized via mechanics.
Personally, I think the players class works well without burn, but I do agree that CON should be more integral to the class. I think they should bring back damage keying off of CON.

why not make it closer to a spell and key attack off as well?


Yeah, constitution should be doing more.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I was surprised by the class. It definitely does not follow anything I might have thought it would. But I am mostly happy with it on first look through. But when I got to the end of the class I was shocked they didn't get Legendary in anything. And that CON did very little. If you are doing anything with a save you are going to want to max it, but lack of Legendary Skill DC still hurts. It also means you aren't very accurate on attacks, like the Thaumaturge.

CON to damage would make sense to me and would give at least a little more weight to it being the Class Stat.


keftiu wrote:
You only need to Gather once to use the blast. While it’s technically two actions on the first turn of combat, you’re only using one every time following that unless you use an Overflow ability.

And sometimes you don't even need to do that. If you know that a combat is coming, you could Gather Elements before the combat starts similarly to pulling out your weapons, raising you shield, or preemptively casting spells.


At least half Con mod to damage would go a long way.


Angel Hunter D wrote:
DiskJokky wrote:
Skabb wrote:
Flavorfully, Kineticists use their body to channel elements, so constitution makes sense from that perspective. Though having some kind of burn-like mechanic would certainly help make that flavor truly realized via mechanics.
Personally, I think the players class works well without burn, but I do agree that CON should be more integral to the class. I think they should bring back damage keying off of CON.
why not make it closer to a spell and key attack off as well?

Well, it seems like their making the Elemental Blast more closer to a weapon than a spell or cantrip where it takes physical prowess to manage and I kind of like that. However, from the flavor of the gates and inner power of the kineticist I still think it should use CON for damage.


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Either CON needs an actual mechanic to interact with, or the class needs dex/str key ability.

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