Virellius's page

I'm about to get my delivery and we still don't have a players guide. This AP feels weirdly under-advertised and promoted, especially considering all the Godsrain stuff.

Wait, they're killing Harold!?

Kidding. But also, Heralds die more often than you think. The Stabbing Beast in particular has been killed in TWO different adventure paths (How many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old stabby man!?)
Personally, I'd be pretty sad if Cayden's herald died. I love her. Sex worker celestial who was besties with the god in life and then got to become his herald after death? Pretty good deal there.

My latest crackpot theory is that the Riders of the Apocalypse (and maybe the Bound Prince) are involved, especially Szuriel (the Rider of War who sometimes receives messages from the Archdevil General of Hell BTW). So, the Core20 who will die would then likely be Gorum or Lamashtu.

I would say Gorum because of all the portents of war.

And maybe we will finally get out Daemon AP.

...are we sure prophecy is broken? ;)

Arkat wrote:

Jonathan Morgantini wrote:

Oh definitely. I'm MC'ing the stream on April 16th, and we are all having a LOT of fun with the various theories and logic spirals.

Stream? Will this be live somewhere (if so, where?) or will we have to wait until Paizo releases it on YouTube?

Yep, its gonna be on the Twitch. We will absolutely share the heck out of the announcements beforehand.

Is this going to be the FIRST announcement of who dies?

I am SO deeply interested in the SUPER SECRET RESEARCH TOPIC THING and will be obsessing over it for a long time. Unrelated, I simply am going to have someone run this and play the freshly of-age child of my RotRL PC, because it is just TOO good. You knocked it out of the park with this one, for sure.

Arkat wrote:

Unicore wrote:

I think Zon Kuthon will be involved, but won’t be the deity who dies. He might be it he one to do the killing though. I am really starting to believe Zon Kuthon is going to kill Sarenrae and Shelyn is going to have to forgive him as he begins a path to redemption.

While I would hate to see Paizo kill off Sarenrae, I could get behind this story if Zon Kuthon is actually redeemed and takes over the Redemption subdomain (PF 1E version) and the rest of Sarenrae's portfolio.

That would be a great sequence of events if done and told right.

That is one possibility, but he could also not change very much and Shelyn and Nocticula could take most of the redemption angle stuff on themselves since it is already pretty much there. He could still become less evil without becoming good though. Like he could still be the god of pain and shadows without a focus on mutilation, and he could lose the anathema against providing comfort to those who suffer, changing it to something like "help others see the value in the experience of their suffering." It would kind of be cool and fitting if he took up healing as a domain in place of destruction. It really feels life a better fit and would put him in a more interesting place outside of the old alignment chart.

Putting a positive spin on the BDSM god to help remove some of the 'bondage = evil' tropes would be VERY appreciated.

Of course killing her isn't killing her. <3

shepsquared wrote:

Arkat wrote:

It will be Urgathoa.

This is probably my most desired outcome, even if I'd bet on it being Nethys or Zon-Kuthon.

The most prominent undead in the setting are wizards or Arazni and the only place her faith is truly important is Geb. Her personal story is pretty cool, but she just doesn't seem to do anything that any other evil god couldn't do.

We don't have another deity for not-so-nice undead, necromancers, or hunger/gluttony in the Core 20, and she's the divine patron of the bad guy who ended Pathfinder 1e. I think Urgathoa's here to stay - Arazni needs someone to beef with!

For no particular reason, I agree. It can't be Urgathoa.

Cayden Caelian survives! In a prophecy that doesn't seem to work in the setting but does reveal some interesting details - the same hand is writing all these prophecies.

In any case, good for him! Never thought he was in danger but still.

I thought so too; didn't we establish that belief does not a god make? Or is it belief doesn't determine their power but CAN make them a god in the first place?

Virellius wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Baphomet: His association with minotaurs and him looking like a minotaur is OGL content, so those elements aren't part of the remaster. We've already gone with a different appearance for him based on mythology, so it's just losing the minotaur stuff in the remaster.

I'm REALLY excited to see how you bring in Baphomet. As a real-world pagan, he's always been sort of on the sidelines but present in my real life practice, his iconography has always been pretty consistent; I always thought the minotaur association was weird anyway.

We'll be starting by angling away from the minotaur stuff and probably changing the association with mazes for dungeons/prisons, to build off of the new lore we created for him in Wrath of the Righteous.

You guys always nail it, tbh. We're lucky to have you.

I think "big or average Hellenistic bull-folk with ties to demons and mazes" and "average or small Filipino bull-folk with ties to the moon" are plenty distinct.

Nagaji, Sekmin, Vishkanya, and snake Beastkin can all coexist just fine - why balk at two kinds of cow?

It's not that I'd balk at it, it's that even in real life stories, it is described as essentially just a minotaur with jewels it protects instead of a labyrinth's treasure. It's not like literal snake people, naga-borne ophidians, venomous humans, and part were-snakes are inherently the same.

My post was 'what makes them different in a lore/myth sense' and not 'we can have two of the same animal-themed humanoid.' I was curious about myths relating to them that show how they are different since they are a real world myth and not something unique to Golarion.

Baphomet: His association with minotaurs and him looking like a minotaur is OGL content, so those elements aren't part of the remaster. We've already gone with a different appearance for him based on mythology, so it's just losing the minotaur stuff in the remaster.

I'm REALLY excited to see how you bring in Baphomet. As a real-world pagan, he's always been sort of on the sidelines but present in my real life practice, his iconography has always been pretty consistent; I always thought the minotaur association was weird anyway.

Oh wow- I missed this announcement but I am very excited. I assume this is in the Tian Xia book?

I am not fillipino, but I have friends who are. One I've consulted on monster stuff before says that in a way it is quite similar to the minotaur in that there is really only one "official" myth, but popular culture has taken it an ran with it. The One Unique Thing is there jeweled earrings, which it seems like feature in the art.

I haven't read that much, but given that they are described as "Full Moon" and "New Moon" I would assume that looking into myths regarding the cycle of the moon would give you some inspiration. My friend is unaware of any particular connection between traditional sarangay and a moon myth, but they are pretty prevalent throughout that part of the world.

Oh cool, thank you! Yeah this was in the Tian Xia stream last night. The jewels are indeed a part of them; and much like you, I seem incapable of finding anything but 'it is a minotaur'.

Considering we're getting minotaur in Howl of the Wild, it REALLY seems like they could have been a heritage the same way Ant Gnolls are for Gnolls/Kholo. Don't get me wrong, I love Sarangay as a concept. Water Buffalo have a special place in my heart as one of those animals, like moose, that you simply do not want to make upset, ands I'm super down for more cultural representation.

It's just hard to find what makes them unique enough as a mythical entity to be an entirely different ancestry, and one of the 6 slots in the entire book (likely the last time in 2e we'll get Tian-specific ancestries). They also, much like Kashrisi and Goloma, will be exceptionally cool in concept but likely never show up in any real way in lore or adventures. It makes them feel almost like they don't -really- exist, and that's sort of sad.

2e is rapidly approaching the OH GOD THERE'S SO MANY ancestries situation with, let's be honest, not nearly enough support for many of them. (I'm looking at you, Grippli, tree frogs who suck at jumping and climbing) So, both mechanically AND lore-wise, I feel like we really gotta make the ones who get in have extremely unique and stand-out concepts.

So, I love our new water buffalo friends. I want to make one for a campaign; the problem is I do not speak Tagalog, and many sources I've seen for real life stories are either in Tagalog or frustratingly brief. Most English sources just say 'this is just a minotaur from the Phillipines' and it's annoying.

So, to both answer players who wonder 'why aren't they a heritage for Minotaur, what makes them different enough to warrant being a whole ancestry' and also 'what are some stories to draw inspo from', does anyone have suggestions or some cool lore?

I came here to say HEY WAIT A MINUTE lolol. James over here being coy lol. I'm so stoked.

Oh alright yeah that makes a lot of sense. Gives the player a chance to really be unique. Not that you can say much I assume but is there more lore on Golarion's Oni in the Tian Xia book? We're waiting until it comes out to run SoG and the wait is killing me. The AP looks absolutely amazing.

Virellius wrote:

In a stream it was mentioned that Oni and Rakshasa were not fiends any longer in the traditional sense; they are other kinds of evils.

Given that, what are those descended from them called? Are they still nephillim or will there be a new heritage to match those people who are descended from spiritual beings that do not fit the Empyrean/Cambion dichotomy? Perhaps a place Duskwalkers could fit in easily too, and maybe a sakhil-blooded person?

I'm not 100% sure we've decided that yet, to be honest. If/when we get to presenting those ancestries we'll have more to say, but for now you can assume that the specific NAMES of those options will remain the same, even if in the future they're something other than a nephilim heritage.

Awesome, thank you! I've got a player planning on running a Hungerseed for Season of Ghosts and I wasn't exactly sure how we should refer to them in-setting. I didn't actually even realize they didn't exist mechanically in 2e at all yet! Any suggestions on what would fit thematically for a homebrew lineage skill feat? I was thinking trained in athletics and/or Oni Lore for the skills.

In a stream it was mentioned that Oni and Rakshasa were not fiends any longer in the traditional sense; they are other kinds of evils.
Given that, what are those descended from them called? Are they still nephillim or will there be a new heritage to match those people who are descended from spiritual beings that do not fit the Empyrean/Cambion dichotomy? Perhaps a place Duskwalkers could fit in easily too, and maybe a sakhil-blooded person?

This level of necromancy puts even Urgathoa to shame.

However, the Aucturn Enigma, if OP is still alive and ever checks this, is a core portion of the Doomsday Dawn pre-2e adventure.

I think it was mentioned on forum that basically passing test of starstone makes you demigod that has potential to turn into full deity relatively fast (certainly in less than thousand years at least)

I think main observation about that is that you can't pass test of starstone and then go ganking around full deities because they would out power you by a lot.

Nobody tell Tar-Baphon this. It'll be really funny.

Virellius wrote:

Makes sense; I'd still argue Warhammers dark elves are close enough to be considered clearly similar (they even have a name that starts with 'dr-') but I see what you mean.

In the long run this is for the best. Pathfinder deserves to be its own thing, completely and independently imo.

Disagree with your assessment of Warhammer's "Dark Elves."

They're called "dark" because they are wholly evil.

Dark = Evil

The color of their skins are just as light as the High Elves' skins, if not lighter.

I do agree with you that Pathfinder's evil elves that live underground should be their own thing.

Maybe make their skins almost impossibly white (due to lack of any sort of pigmentation, or whatever) because they get no Vitamin D from Golarion's sun. You don't have to put it in those exact terms, but the idea's the same.

Heck, they don't even *have* to live underground, but, as we all should know, races that live underground tend to be more evil than races that don't...darkness (lack of light) being associated with evil in just about every culture ever and all that.

If I described to you purple-and-black-clad elves lead in part by a dark magic wielding matriarch who serves an evil violent god, who are known for dramatic goth architecture and have an economy based heavily on slaves, whose ethnicities name starts with the letters 'dr' you could say either Drow or Druchii, which is what I meant.

I never said the druchii were dark skinned, nor did I say the drow needed to be either (the paizo direction before OGL issues was to make them lavender, anyways).

Shadow Malice, the Darklands punk band from Abomination Vaults, absolutely plays rock music.

So would any musician from the Plane of Earth, if you get me.

Virellius wrote:

This does bring a question to mind, however. So many other properties use Dark Elves, purple or grey or even obsidian skinned elves that live in dark places and commit evil acts.

What about Pathfinder's 'drow' made them more subject to it than, say, the druchii from Warhammer? Purple and black armors, massive dark gothic structures, a matriarchal society, a heavy focus on slavery and dark evil magic... is it just the skin tone?

I'm not debating why Paizo needed to remove them. I just wonder why other properties get a pass. Elder Scrolls have dark elves, also, and Final Fantasy 14 has creatures called Mind Flayers (the last patch introduced a furnishing item based on one with their name as well, even). Is it the FORM of media, being a ttrpg, that makes Paizo exceptionally vulnerable?

None of those other companies you list call their dark-skinned elves Drow, or base their game-play statistics and lore on open content directly available from Dungeons and Dragons through the SRD and the OGL. They did from the start what we only began to really do with the remaster—make their own names and lore up for EVERYTHING, rather than just some things.

Makes sense; I'd still argue Warhammers dark elves are close enough to be considered clearly similar (they even have a name that starts with 'dr-') but I see what you mean.

In the long run this is for the best. Pathfinder deserves to be its own thing, completely and independently imo.

This does bring a question to mind, however. So many other properties use Dark Elves, purple or grey or even obsidian skinned elves that live in dark places and commit evil acts.
What about Pathfinder's 'drow' made them more subject to it than, say, the druchii from Warhammer? Purple and black armors, massive dark gothic structures, a matriarchal society, a heavy focus on slavery and dark evil magic... is it just the skin tone?

I'm not debating why Paizo needed to remove them. I just wonder why other properties get a pass. Elder Scrolls have dark elves, also, and Final Fantasy 14 has creatures called Mind Flayers (the last patch introduced a furnishing item based on one with their name as well, even). Is it the FORM of media, being a ttrpg, that makes Paizo exceptionally vulnerable?

James Jacobs wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

There is reason why vainglory almost never gets used in fiction as separate from pride/hubris.

Stay tuned...

Twins ?

Or even triplets ?

That's way too many Xanderghul's.

If he came back as an undead though, would it be a Xanderghoul? Or Xanderghast, really... I digress.

Parchlands - So I have been learning about the Parchlands and they are very interesting! I love the cosmic horror elements, it's super fun to explore those themes in areas and places outside of more traditional lovecraftian settings. I can't quite figure out where on the map the are located, but hopefully a future Casmaron map will clarify.

"

I'm excited to see some cosmic horror centered around deserts from a non-Eurocentric lens. The Madlad Alhazred has always been very orientalist in the BEST of contexts, so this could be a cool way to recontextualize some of those elements of the staples of cosmic horror lore and also just flat out make new stuff.

Virellius wrote:

Hey everybody! Going to be starting Rusthenge for some new players soon and I was actually sort of surprised there's no gazetteer for the city in the book. The backgrounds mention some other Elders but aside from maybe a name reference elsewhere I didn't see any other info on them.

Is there information on the town the party is meant to be from somewhere else or is it more of an open spot?

We simply didn't have room for an Osprey Cove gazetteer, and since the adventure itself barely spends any time there, one wasn't really needed.

Does mean that GMs can make of the town what they will though!

Cool! I figured as much, just wasn't sure if maybe I missed info somewhere! This is actually great though since we can just tailor the town to fit our players.

Hey everybody! Going to be starting Rusthenge for some new players soon and I was actually sort of surprised there's no gazetteer for the city in the book. The backgrounds mention some other Elders but aside from maybe a name reference elsewhere I didn't see any other info on them.

Is there information on the town the party is meant to be from somewhere else or is it more of an open spot?

All great responses.

I've been really interested in how a Cleric of Gozreh differs from a Druid of the Winds and Waves. Does the Druid also acknowledge their power flows through Gozreh in some form? Do they REJECT Gozreh's influence in nature as being somehow unnatural?

Both would be very interesting character discussions.

Simple question with a likely extremely complex answer: do we as players know how Gozreh functions as the god of nature, in a world with numerous weaker nature deities, the elemental lords who rule the natural elements, and the Green Faith who do not worship a god but do revere Green Men among other things, who have the ability to grant divine power?

Has there ever been discussion on how a God of Nature who grants Divine spells and not Primal spells coexists with lesser divinities who fill a more explicit connection to Gozreh's own primary domain?

It seems like this would be a VERY interesting in-setting discussion for druids and clerics (for example, are clerics of Gozreh commonly ALSO druids?)

I REALLY feel like, after reading that, Torag MAY be our god on his way out. What better way to deal with the issues of Torag's questionable history than to show what that history causes first hand?

I always love the NPCs so much. Cimri, Wryn, Ameiko, Cressida, etc.
It does make sense though why there isn't room. Theres already quite a bit of backmatter in this book. It just really is appreciated how much y'all put into even minor NPCs. Really looking forward to getting this AP going!

Anyone else missing this? Really loved those bits to help expand the NPCs motivations and such.

That being said, any GMs who are prepping to run this have any ideas, thoughts, or concepts in mind for fleshing out any of the major NPCs, particularly the (i thought she was Ayindilar but she's a fey actually) Queen on the cover?

Yeah people sometimes forget that bio-essentialism being removed should apply to other material-but-magical beings too. While extraplanar entities who are born of pure evil (Devils, for example) make sense in a metaphysical sense, dragons, while magical, are flesh and blood.

It follows that they should also have diversity of thought and being.

Virellius wrote:

Eurythnia could be a candidate for Bard Town, as Nocticula herself seems pretty fond of Sorshen and they have the whole 'land of subservise artists and also two former LewdLords as Ruler and Patron Deity'. Nothing says Bard Aesthetic more than that.

The city high on Mhar Massif is still called Xin-Shalast, unless something's changed since the World Guide. The state within the New Thassilonian confederation is [New] Eurythnia. But the city, the state, and the confederation have wizardly vibes as strong as or stronger than bardly vibes (which with respect to Xin-Shalast are tied not so much to the "subversive" as the "outcast," subversive is Kintargo's schtick). And Xin-Shalast shares Kintargo's problem of having a small population, with even fewer bardly institutions.

I was referring to this: 'She seeks to fashion Eurythnia into a place that exiles, subversive artists, and misfits can call home. The modern region of Eurythnia is not in the same location as its ancient namesake.' From the wiki, citing the Saga Lands section of the World Guide. And yes, she lives in Xin-Shalast and not Korvosa and surroundings, but I was referring to her realm which is New Eurythnia.

I would honestly not say Sorshen or her lands have 'wizard vibes', despite being one of the most powerful wizards alive. Her whole appeal of powerful personality, aesthetics, et al, feel FAR more Charisma Caster. Wizard Vibes don't, to me, read as 'welcoming misfits and outcasts and loving art'.

Sevenarches is a pretty solid Druid City, as it is literally an elven ruin inhabited by druids and sort of held together by magic vines and roots.

Eurythnia could be a candidate for Bard Town, as Nocticula herself seems pretty fond of Sorshen and they have the whole 'land of subservise artists and also two former LewdLords as Ruler and Patron Deity'. Nothing says Bard Aesthetic more than that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a big part of The Measure and Chain was that Hellknights maintain autonomy from the nations that host them, with their services offered via contract but still remaining a third party. While that doesn't stop them from enforcing that nation's laws alongside the nation's own enforcers, granted authority to do so by the monarch (or other head of state, but I imagine they find parliamentary/democratic forms of government flawed at best, outright contemptible at worst) who hired them, they are still not an actual part of the government required to be loyal to the state in all things.

This is why you can have House Thrune being on the verge of declaring the Order of the Scourge outlaws while the Order of the Rack are all but their puppets at this point.

Hellknights COULD still serve in a tax-related capacity, but probably more like a medieval fantasy version of TurboTax or H&R Block. Which I feel would be even funnier.

I used to work as product support for TurboTax and I must disagree; the level of wild chaos and complete lack of organization/structure that the company runs with is clearly Proteans posing as Abadarans. That company is run in such a haphazard, no clear line of command, good luck you're on your own type of system. It's Ganzi Time there.

Which, to be honest... have we discussed the idea of Asmodeus dying, Hell going into a civil war, and some OTHER kind of fiend stepping up to the plate? I'd love to see what happens is Abrogail, suddenly free of her contract, decides to be a bit more free-spirited and says 'Qlippoths, actually...'

Awesome! Thanks for the reply, that makes a lot of sense. I was stoked to see the primal dragons stuck around and got referenced in RoE so I was pretty curious about the original flavors.

To the above: This is true, but it matters in the setting. If Golarion has only Infernal, Mirage, etc dragons, then by what frame of reference do they classify Kazavon, Dahak, Mengkare, etc, if not by their colour?

If dragons are tied to magic traditions, what tradition is Mengkare? What is Kazavon? Are they unique entities separate from the biology of their species? I feel like it almost makes it MORE complicated than just keeping the old dragons along with the new.

Perhaps the Arcane Dragons are going to be Metallic and Chromatic to keep from having some significant retconning of campaign-centric (if not world-centric) entities. Drow into Ayndilar is simple enough to just rename and reflavor as needed, but removing entire established species is going to be a pretty awkward thing to swing in-setting.

So, as we know, dragons are being revamped. The big question that lingers, however, it's what's being done to the existing dragons that are lore- important? What happens to the ruler of Hermea, or the Warlord Kazavon?

Are we just going to never hear from them again, much like the former drow, or are the old metallic and chromatics still existing, just less talked about? Is Dahak still red?

Werecreatures?

There creatures.

There castle.

I'm gonna be the odd man out here and say I LOVE Father Skinsaw showing up. Every time my table sees some Skinsaw cult shenanigans they lose it. 'These clowns again!?'

*Spoilers for AoE* When they found out the WHOLE AP was Norgy-themed they went rabid for it. Especially with ANOTHER Vancaskerkin tied up in it?! Beautiful. Absolutely wonderful. Love that weird guy. *end spoilers*

Gorum getting yote by an orc and being replaced with Orcrum. It's an orc woman, right? A femme war god would be AMAZING for the setting, especially considering how society has rightfully fallen in love with strong muscular women lately, thank the gods. Plus with Orcs becoming Core, we could use a cultural deity for them.

Virellius wrote:

I'm expecting Zellara from CT to show up as she was name dropped at the start of the book, but if not, she is absolutely popping up like 'I thought I was AT PEACE WHY AM I HERE' lol. Exhausted, expecting the CotCT party to be there but instead its some new nerds.

It's a little later than that:

** spoiler omitted **

I finally got my third book and saw her; got so excited. Going to be a REALLY fun throwback for my table to bring her back in.

Based on this "On a few occasions, when shisk sages or diplomats convinced different groups of shisks to put aside their differences and collaborate, great puzzles and mysteries of Golarion have been solved in a matter of hours.", I feel the Shisks are likely spread much further than the Mwangi Expanse. Maybe those living in other places are even more paranoid and thus unknown to outsiders.

Oh hey, good catch.

I wonder if there are populations in other mountain ranges?

So I'm making a shisk PC, and I was curious as to where in the real world any lore, cultural, or design inspo may have come from if any. If NONE, what would be maybe some good design notes to help them feel accurate?

As far as we know, they ONLY live in the Mwangi Expanse, correct? I wouldn't want to just make a bunch of white shisk, for example, if there isn't a precedent for them to exist in Golarion.

Considering the amount of lore on them is painfully small, I was hoping to see other ideas players have had for playing Shisk.

Party just beat Bolan. One of them got close to him, looked out the window, and saw the zip line. They put 2 and 2 together, and just reached out with their polearm and cut the zipline.

Queue a very 'Well this is awkward' moment from Bolan. In his defense, he dropped one unconscious with the spikes, and almost dropped the rogue with her own shirt, so he deserved it.

Also, as an aside, a hero point alone saved my Sorcerer from becoming a victim of Massive Damage from the stove. 2d10+13 is INSANE Damage from something with a DC as high as it has. That is RIDICULOUSLY capable of critting and one-shotting a level 1 PC.

Gary Teter wrote:

What part of Pathfinder do you want to know more about?

Vudra! I love what you’ve done with Jalmeray, but I can hardly wait for a source book about old Vudra. Especially if there’s a forgotten Taldan kingdom or something snuck somewhere in there to tickle my Anglo-Indian heritage …

Hell yeah Vudra!

I would love to see some Iblydos/Vudrani interactions like the real-life Yavana, the Indo-Greek kingdom. Cool and little-discussed history there and lots of cool potential inspiration for some Golarion stuff.

I'm really glad to hear that, tbh. :D

Sekamina seems so far from mainstream Golarion these days, it seems like a perfect chance to rework it anyways!

Yes May I direct your attention to the OGL shenanigans that are ongoing and have been discussed and which this thread is also named after.

If they coulda just renamed them, they would have.

I didn't say they 'just rename them'. The condescending tone here is weird. I'm VERY aware of the 'shenanigans'.

What I said was instances of drow in universe in NO WAY (aside from Second Darkness, really) portray them identically to how WotC does. The drow in AV for example feel nice and unique; the mummy ones in EC also have a very fresh flavor. I mean all they need to do is say 'these elves who live underground in the darklands (literally what the Ayindilar are said to be) are called Cavern Elves by the surface. Their skin is pale due to being subterranean and takes on a lavender hue due to ~magic~.'

Removing Drow but ALSO keeping elves who live in enclaves in the Darklands is just unnecessarily confusing, imo, especially with very recently established Darklands elf populations in APs.

I still do not understand why they didn't just say something as simple as 'instances of Drow will be replaced with Ayndilar, and reflavored to match our own world and sensibilities'.

It feels weird now running my Abomination Vaults campaign because like... what do I say about the Drow? We plan on continuing this group of PCs and they absolutely LOVE the ones you meet in the third book. Hugely connecting with them. Why not just call them Ayndilar instead of saying 'We're replacing them ALL with sekmin (which really sounds like Snek Men and I like it) but also we will have elves in the Darklands too but different'.

It really seems like a strange way of going about it which causes unnecessary confusion.