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Hello all, I'm attempting to make a pfs toon that is a 100% grappler. Not concorned with striking to much, more submissions, pins, etc. I built it in heolab as a monk with the grappler archetype. Does anyone think I could come out better with another build? Maybe a fighter type or something. Please brain storm for me if you've got the time. Thanks.
If you want straight Grappler, then the Tetori monk archetype is hands down the best grappling class in Pathfinder (assuming non third party material). The next best would be the Brawler, but Tetori monk is the way to go.
What are the heavy grappling associated feats I need to make myself aware of during leveling? Also, I built as a halfling which some may say is crazy counter productive but I picked up agile manuvers and maxed his dex. Thought this would boost the ac while being so close to combat and boost cmd.
Final Embrace is an amazing feat for grapplers, but unfortunately being Small is rather counterproductive for it.
Despite it's somewhat odd requirements it is legal for PFS, and can be obtained easily a menagerie of different ways that I'm aware of:
1) 2 levels of White-Haired Witch
2) Anaconda's Coils
3) A Serpentine Eidolon with the Constrict evolution
4) 6 levels of Druid (or anything else that gives polymorph forms that can Constrict), I'm 90% sure
If you do go the Polymorph route then your original size doesn't make a lick of difference, which is nice; you would probably want to go Druid for this since Druids can basically always hang out in their larger forms.
If you're trying to be a DEX-based grappler, it can be a little difficult to get your Grapple bonus up to snuff (especially in regard to CMD) with characters that are stacking STR for it.
Some nice quick avenues for increasing your bonus to Grapple:
1) Armbands of the Brawler (very cheap, can replace if you get a bigger competence bonus later)
2) Bred for War (unique among the traits in that it gives +1 to your actual CMB, I believe you can pick this up with the Adopted trait)
3) Falayna's Celestial Obedience (this is a HUGE boost, +4 to Grapple and to CMD)
Would just splashing 2 levels of witch in with my monk work? I love all the feats I'm getting free for going the grappling archetype. The white hair with all by herself looks like an excellent grappler
I could go human I was just trying to be different, I'm a human on real life :) actually this character has 3xp and was aasimar prior to the changes, I think I technically could stay aasimar if that helps.
There is a very cool White-Haired Witch / Monk build floating around, take a poke around the forums for it. The grab + constrict at low levels (on all your natural attacks, if you say go Tengu for a bite and claws and take Final Embrace) can actually seem so strong that people curl their lip.
Of course, while you have fun rolling 14 dice for this whole sequence, the barbarian is splitting the bad guys in half with one roll of his mighty d12, so hey.
Something I've had a lot of fun with on my White-Haired Witch / Magus build is the free-action grab on the White Hair. (DO NOTE that White-Haired Witch was errata'd such that the Constrict is a swift action, although you can bypass this with Final Embrace.) If you can add reach to your hair via Lunge or some other avenue, you can actually drag opponents over to you, or even flip them completely to the other side of you for your allies to take a crack at, due to the odd grapple rules in Pathfinder.
In one fight in a somewhat recent scenario, our friendly party Arcanist separated us from a gang of angry orcs with a pit, at which point I used a spell to reach across the room with my character's hair, slap the caster leader of the orcs, and drag her over to the side of the pit she really didn't want to be on...
True! Make sure to keep your crab in a Familiar Satchel full of water at all frickin' times, your little buddy is very vulnerable to AoE damage.
EDIT: Also remember that your White Hair does damage based off of INT, but still uses STR (or DEX with Finesse) to hit. So it's not a huge deal if your INT isn't off-the-hook, since you're in it for the grab and constrict really.
The current builds floating around in my region involve Monk of Many Styles dips for Snapping Turtle stuff or Manuever Master for Flurry of Maneuvers, at least 1 level of Brawler, and (much to my surprise) a couple of these guys have Cleric and Paladin levels.
MoMS level 1 for Snapping Turtle Style/Clutch or Maneuver Master level 1 for Flurry of Maneuvers are pretty much the only easy ways to get a target to pinned in 1 round until Greater Grapple, which is rather difficult to get otherwise due to the BAB requirement.
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Rules heads up for players and GMs:
Unless you start the round grappling someone (like via Turtle clutch or an AOO with grab), you cannot one round grapple and pin--Mark Seifter clarified that in scenario discussion in the GM forum.
While James Jacobs has said the opposite, he's not a rules guy and Mark is.
Do I agree with Mark? No--especially since the level you can Grapple/Greater Grapple/Rapid Grapple (L9) is the same level full casters start getting their L5 spells and at L11 full martials are full attacking 3 times a round.
But the rules are the rules.
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Rules heads up for players and GMs:
Unless you start the round grappling someone (like via Turtle clutch or an AOO with grab), you cannot one round grapple and pin--Mark Seifter clarified that in scenario discussion in the GM forum.
While James Jacobs has said the opposite, he's not a rules guy and Mark is.
Do I agree with Mark? No--especially since the level you can Grapple/Greater Grapple/Rapid Grapple (L9) is the same level full casters start getting their L5 spells and at L11 full martials are full attacking 3 times a round.
But the rules are the rules.
Could you link to Mark's post? Always thought you could grapple and pin (with penalty) in one round if you have the proper feats.
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@_@! Seems like grappling is in for a major nerf... again...
...which on second thought is fair. Having played a grappler build before, I realize the current system is very broken.
Unless a NPC have freedom of movement, insubstantial or some other means to get out of a grapple, it is usually instant KO if a properly build grappler build grabs hold of an NPC.
Even the strongest foes have to burn actions to get out a grapple or being tied up, with the grappler simply reapplying the grapple the next turn.
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The problem is grappling doesn't scale well.
A certain beautiful and handsome tetori has some friends he plays with:
A L16 Pounce 2H barbarian
A L16 Mounted Archer Ranger
A L16 Wizard
If the martials have to move and attack, we are all on the same playing field with one attack action (oh, unless the barb has a charge lane or the archer's mount only has to move once...oh, wait....)
If we get a full round action, the other martials simply click their boots of speed and get 5 attacks (barb) or 6 attacks (Archer), with the first doing double damage. Meanwhile, I would still only get one action in the first round.
I didn't even mention the wizard because at this point a caster far outstrips a martial, and if it is a save or suck wizard, it can drop two of those spells a round with quicken, even if it has to move.
ETA: it is a Dazing Assault barbarian, so you're most likely daze-locked once he starts hitting you and the wizard can do the same except as an AoE.
Rules heads up for players and GMs:
Unless you start the round grappling someone (like via Turtle clutch or an AOO with grab), you cannot one round grapple and pin--Mark Seifter clarified that in scenario discussion in the GM forum.
While James Jacobs has said the opposite, he's not a rules guy and Mark is.
Do I agree with Mark? No--especially since the level you can Grapple/Greater Grapple/Rapid Grapple (L9) is the same level full casters start getting their L5 spells and at L11 full martials are full attacking 3 times a round.
But the rules are the rules.
That's pretty much why everyone around here either has Maneuver Master for Flurry of Maneuvers or the Snapping Turtle line (or both).
Hello all, I'm attempting to make a pfs toon that is a 100% grappler. Not concorned with striking to much, more submissions, pins, etc. I built it in heolab as a monk with the grappler archetype. Does anyone think I could come out better with another build? Maybe a fighter type or something. Please brain storm for me if you've got the time. Thanks.
Master of Many Styles monk with Cave Druid levels to get ooze form. Look into it.
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Hello all, I'm attempting to make a pfs toon that is a 100% grappler. Not concorned with striking to much, more submissions, pins, etc. I built it in heolab as a monk with the grappler archetype. Does anyone think I could come out better with another build? Maybe a fighter type or something. Please brain storm for me if you've got the time. Thanks.Master of Many Styles monk with Cave Druid levels to get ooze form. Look into it.
Pummeling Style + Feral Combat Training (Slam) + Carnivorous Crystal Ooze.
You don't even need the strong jaw size stacking shenanigans to be terrifying with this combo.
If you're trying to be a DEX-based grappler, it can be a little difficult to get your Grapple bonus up to snuff (especially in regard to CMD) with characters that are stacking STR for it.
Some nice quick avenues for increasing your bonus to Grapple:
1) Armbands of the Brawler (very cheap, can replace if you get a bigger competence bonus later)
2) Bred for War (unique among the traits in that it gives +1 to your actual CMB, I believe you can pick this up with the Adopted trait)
3) Falayna's Celestial Obedience (this is a HUGE boost, +4 to Grapple and to CMD)
You can't take Bred for War unless you at least 6 feet tall, IIRC.
For a halfling, there's an Andoran regional trait Equality for All, which increases your CMB/CMD against larger foes.
Also, if your favored class is a Monk or Fighter, your favored class bonus gets you +1 CMS vs. Grapple, which really helps counter balance the size. The other advantage of the tetori is that you add your Wisdom to the CMD, also.
My Str-based halfling Tetori has a 15 CMB and 36 CMD for grappling at level 7, completely unbuffed.
Rules heads up for players and GMs:
Unless you start the round grappling someone (like via Turtle clutch or an AOO with grab), you cannot one round grapple and pin--Mark Seifter clarified that in scenario discussion in the GM forum.
While James Jacobs has said the opposite, he's not a rules guy and Mark is.
Do I agree with Mark? No--especially since the level you can Grapple/Greater Grapple/Rapid Grapple (L9) is the same level full casters start getting their L5 spells and at L11 full martials are full attacking 3 times a round.
But the rules are the rules.
Can you point me to a link for this? No one in our area is playing this way.
Once you get Rapid Grappler, by RAW, you can absolutely pin in one round: standard action, grapple, then move action to maintain, where one of your options is pin. I don't see any ambiguity.
Now, you can't tie up in one round (without taking the -10)--is that what James Jacobs is referring to?
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James Jacobs said, RAI, 3 Grapple checks in one round would allow you to grapple, pin and tie up in one round.
Mark Seifter clarified in a PFS scenario thread HERE that you couldn't.
You can actually mix Snakebite Striker and Strangler archetypes for a rather large amount of sneak-attack damage upon a successful grapple. I believe you can combine it with the Final Embrace line should you manage to achieve a constrict attack for some seriously monstrous damage.
Hey all thanks for all the new post. I'm curious if you guys would look at what I made so far. I made a toon to level 12. This is just one of my many ideas but theres so much going on with feats and speak abilities I'm not sure if I'm over lapping or what, I've very confused any way, I'm gonna like a snap shot of my herbal page, maybe you can tell me it this will work. Thanks all!
EDIT: I guess I'm just not sure how to put it all together. With the grapple, the hair, the attacking, etc. What would a typical 1st, 2nd, 3rd round action look like for me?
James Jacobs said, RAI, 3 Grapple checks in one round would allow you to grapple, pin and tie up in one round.
Mark Seifter clarified in a PFS scenario thread HERE that you couldn't.
Actually, that's not an official clarification. He said there's an FAQ coming that would resolve that particular argument.
Bruno's post goes back to the long-standing argument over whether the "subsequent rounds" text in the Grapple description is present because you maintain as a standard action and you only get one standard action per round, or whether it means that the maintain check must always come the round after the grapple check because...? (I hope they fill that part in if the FAQ goes that way.)
Personally, I think the second interpretation creates way too big a gap between grapple and grab/constrict. Monsters are able to grab/constrict/release as many times a turn as they have limbs, from birth. Forcing players to wait an extra turn just to do damage once, no matter how many feats they invest in the ability--oh, and they're taking a full attack in the meantime--seems amazingly unfair.
If the FAQ does come down on the second interpretation, the future answer to "How do I play a grappler?" becomes "Build a summoner, because only eidelons can grapple effectively."
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If the FAQ does come down on the second interpretation, the future answer to "How do I play a grappler?" becomes "Build a summoner, because only eidelons can grapple effectively."
It's not that bad, because there are several ways to get grab as a PC, the most effective one being Final Embrace which any grappler is going to want to get anyway.