I'll put a vote in for Magus as well.
A somewhat related question for you Owen; How would you have the Talented classes interact with the Archetype Packages concept (like in the Archer Archetype Book)? Would it be fair to let players swap out an Edge or Talent at the appropriate level and gain the archetype ability.I've actually been looking at that recently, and eventually I'll do a revision of the archetype books that addresses this is a sidebar. Where possible, I think it would be fair to pay the same cost as it would take to gain the ability being traded away. In other words if an archetype power replaces something a rogue gains as an edge, a rogue can take that archetype power as an edge.
That's not a perfect answer, but it works most of them time.
Ive actually been working with this a fair amount. I really like the talented classes, and the archetypes are a staple of my games at home. And in terms what to make an achetype cost its not really even if you just give up edges and talents at the appropriate level.
Most of the packages that you can trade archetypes for sting a bit. They arent all equal per say, but my inner munchkin definately frets over their loss. A monk loses flurry of blows, a fighter loses weapon training, most of the 6 level casters can give up their spells. 4 level casters give up their spells + something else.
With the talented line, it doesnt really sting. You can still get flury of blows, and maybe you dont get fast movement instead. The flexibility of the talented classes takes the sting out of the packages you have to trade away.
Mind you I am not saying this is a bad thing. I dont think all packages you can trade in the archetypes are created equal. But its definately not the case that the effect is the same with the talented classes. If you want the same impact, making choosing an archetype a meaningful choice,and for choosing an archetype to remain consistent when using the talented classes vs using the normal classes, you need to trade away the talent or edge that gives you the ability as well.
So a talented monk would give up an Edge at first level, a talent at 2nd level an edge at 4th level, a talent at 7th level a talent at 12th level and a talent at 19th level, but they also cannot take either flurry edge, the ki edge, the wholeness of body, abundant step or empty body talents.
I don't want to be a downer but I'm probably going to quit the line after Witch. In my opinion Fighter, Cavalier, Monk, Barbarian, Rogue, Witch and Ranger NEEDED to be talented while with the other classes it would just be nice.
Alchemist. I would love to see where you take with the Talented line, and with what Malwing said...I think that is one class that needs it (in terms of being an actual lead-to-gold type of alchemist).
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I don't want to be a downer but I'm probably going to quit the line after Witch. In my opinion Fighter, Cavalier, Monk, Barbarian, Rogue, Witch and Ranger NEEDED to be talented while with the other classes it would just be nice.
I'm going to continue buying the Talented line as long as the classes keep being made. My opinion is that more options on how to create and build your characters is always a good thing.
So now for "what comes after ranger and witch" that's:
Alchemist: 7 vote
Gunslinger: 7 votes
Magus: 7 votes
Paladin: 2 votes
Summoner: 1 vote
I didn't note the Dark Mistress vote above, because that is definitely going to have to wait until the Talented Bestiary is published. RPG Superstar winner Steven T. Helt and his Four Horsemen group are working on that, and I am really, really excited by it!
I don't want to be a downer but I'm probably going to quit the line after Witch. In my opinion Fighter, Cavalier, Monk, Barbarian, Rogue, Witch and Ranger NEEDED to be talented while with the other classes it would just be nice.I'm going to continue buying the Talented line as long as the classes keep being made. My opinion is that more options on how to create and build your characters is always a good thing.
On the one hand, I am obviously in favor of people buying as many rogue Genius products as possible.
On the other hand, I totally understand being satisfied with just a subset of any given rules options.
I'm hopeful that everyone who buys any of the Talented class books will find something useful and interesting that makes each class new and exciting but still familiar and balanced. So if anyone is on the fence with a specific book, I encourage you to pick it up.
But if you have no interest, by all means save your money for something else Rogue Genius has to offer. :)
Alchemist. I would love to see where you take with the Talented line, and with what Malwing said...I think that is one class that needs it (in terms of being an actual lead-to-gold type of alchemist).
Well if THAT is what you are most interested in, you might want to take a look a Advanced Options: Alchemists Discoveries, which includes options for alchemical metamorphosis (ie turning lead into gold... or silver, or salt, or water... )
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Another dark mistress vote for further along the line!
Alchemist. I would love to see where you take with the Talented line, and with what Malwing said...I think that is one class that needs it (in terms of being an actual lead-to-gold type of alchemist).Well if THAT is what you are most interested in, you might want to take a look a Advanced Options: Alchemists Discoveries, which includes options for alchemical metamorphosis (ie turning lead into gold... or silver, or salt, or water... )
Oho! I will definitely check this out!
Oho! I will definitely check this out!Alchemist. I would love to see where you take with the Talented line, and with what Malwing said...I think that is one class that needs it (in terms of being an actual lead-to-gold type of alchemist).Well if THAT is what you are most interested in, you might want to take a look a Advanced Options: Alchemists Discoveries, which includes options for alchemical metamorphosis (ie turning lead into gold... or silver, or salt, or water... )
Actually this product is the EXACT reason why I'm not terribly interested in Talented Alchemist. Just buy it. It has been the single best alchemist option product I've yet to buy.
Alchemist. Definitely the Alchemist.
I'll vote for the summoner to give whoever else voted for it some company. There would have to be a really unexpected rally for that class to pull ahead at this point. But I really am curious to see how a summoner would work as a "Talented" class.
The eidolon is very much "build your own monster", but the summoner himself not so much -- the class itself is very much a fixed progression.
Alchemist.
The eidolon is very much "build your own monster", but the summoner himself not so much -- the class itself is very much a fixed progression.
That's sort of splitting hairs. The summoner is a fixed progression because of the huge amount of customizability of the eidolon.
Plus, they get spells, so that's something.
Actually this product is the EXACT reason why I'm not terribly interested in Talented Alchemist. Just buy it. It has been the single best alchemist option product I've yet to buy.Oho! I will definitely check this out!Alchemist. I would love to see where you take with the Talented line, and with what Malwing said...I think that is one class that needs it (in terms of being an actual lead-to-gold type of alchemist).Well if THAT is what you are most interested in, you might want to take a look a Advanced Options: Alchemists Discoveries, which includes options for alchemical metamorphosis (ie turning lead into gold... or silver, or salt, or water... )
Ditto, it'd still be nice to have eventually.
Restating my vote for Talented Magus since the count has started over.
Can i vote for wizard?
Can i vote for wizard?
ABSOLUTELY!
Heck, you can vote for White Necromancer if you want to. :)So now for "what comes after ranger and witch" that's:
Alchemist: 9 vote
Gunslinger: 7 votes
Magus: 8 votes
Paladin: 2 votes
Summoner: 3 votes
Wizard: 1 vote
(And two votes for the Dark Mistress vote above, which will have to wait until the Talented Bestiary [by RPG Superstar winner Steven T. Helt and his Four Horsemen group] is published)
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Actually this product is the EXACT reason why I'm not terribly interested in Talented Alchemist. Just buy it. It has been the single best alchemist option product I've yet to buy.
So first, THANKS~! That's awesome feedback.
Second... what if I promised I had similarly good new ideas I'd add into Talented Alchemist? ;)
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the summoner himself not so much -- the class itself is very much a fixed progression.That's sort of splitting hairs. The summoner is a fixed progression because of the huge amount of customizability of the eidolon.
Yeah... but what if I wanted to include options for summoners who didn't HAVE eidolons?
Because I do. :D
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Similarly, I'd be interested to see what you have planned for the Paladin. I could see you potentially creating a holy knight that would cover the paladin, anti-paladin and other alignment based holy knight types all under the one umbrella. My first impression is that you could link certain powers to the codes of conduct, which would allow you to recreate the core classes using the talented system, but expand the class offerings somewhat and make them less linear in nature.
Yep. :)
Antipaladin will be included in the Paladin class. As will my ideas for Partisans and Tyrants.
What I really would like is a Talented book done on Kickstarter, that was handled like the Mythic Kickstarter done by Legendary Games. With a group of top quality 3PP's working together to put many of the great classes into the Talented line. Matter of fact if the same group could come together that would be great (though I could think of a couple more I would like included) and would be the top, must have product, that I am interested in at this time.
The thought of what Owen could do with a non eidolon Summoner means I have to cast my vote that way. I wouldn't mind a talented Magus though.
I would also like to cast a vote for you doing a kickstarter for a compilation, preferable a printed one.
the summoner himself not so much -- the class itself is very much a fixed progression.That's sort of splitting hairs. The summoner is a fixed progression because of the huge amount of customizability of the eidolon.Yeah... but what if I wanted to include options for summoners who didn't HAVE eidolons?
Because I do. :D
You mean a summoner that summons things instead of being the eidolon's sidekick? Thats just rediculous. Also awesome and gimme gimme.
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Actually this product is the EXACT reason why I'm not terribly interested in Talented Alchemist. Just buy it. It has been the single best alchemist option product I've yet to buy.So first, THANKS~! That's awesome feedback.
Second... what if I promised I had similarly good new ideas I'd add into Talented Alchemist? ;)
...damn you owen, now i want the alchemist. Bombless, mutagenless, alchemist as a viable option sounds great.
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Actually this product is the EXACT reason why I'm not terribly interested in Talented Alchemist. Just buy it. It has been the single best alchemist option product I've yet to buy.So first, THANKS~! That's awesome feedback.
Second... what if I promised I had similarly good new ideas I'd add into Talented Alchemist? ;)
If I caught wind of that I'd probably hate you. Transmuting and Spyragic Devices made having a non-mutagen, non-extract or non-bomber alchemist doable and allowed my players to make the kind of alchemist they wanted. If similar new things were implemented in Talented Alchemist I wouldn't be able to resist and I'd be spending more money on third party materials. You'd be a thoughtless and sadistic slayer of wallets cruelly preying upon my poor monies leaving me sobbing while desperately trying to slide my credit card against my monitor wondering why I do not have Talented Alchemist yet.
...damn you owen, now i want the alchemist. Bombless, mutagenless, alchemist as a viable option sounds great.Actually this product is the EXACT reason why I'm not terribly interested in Talented Alchemist. Just buy it. It has been the single best alchemist option product I've yet to buy.So first, THANKS~! That's awesome feedback.
Second... what if I promised I had similarly good new ideas I'd add into Talented Alchemist? ;)
That can actually be done now with their advanced options: alchemist discoveries!
Owen presents 3 new subsystems to use: Spagyric devices (<3), Transmutation, and... uhm...the one I forget. They can replace Extracts, bombs, or the mutagen. Obviously, the mutagen replacement worked a bit better when you couldn't just take a discovery to get it back, but oh well.
Spagyric devices are really, really cool.
If I caught wind of that I'd probably hate you. Transmuting and Spyragic Devices made having a non-mutagen, non-extract or non-bomber alchemist doable and allowed my players to make the kind of alchemist they wanted. If similar new things were implemented in Talented Alchemist I wouldn't be able to resist and I'd be spending more money on third party materials. You'd be a thoughtless and sadistic slayer of wallets cruelly preying upon my poor monies leaving me sobbing while desperately trying to slide my credit card against my monitor wondering why I do not have Talented Alchemist yet.Actually this product is the EXACT reason why I'm not terribly interested in Talented Alchemist. Just buy it. It has been the single best alchemist option product I've yet to buy.So first, THANKS~! That's awesome feedback.
Second... what if I promised I had similarly good new ideas I'd add into Talented Alchemist? ;)
This puts you in good company with Steam, I think.
Ooooh, I still want a Magus more but a Summoner without an eidolon is very interesting.
Magus, Magus, Magus, Magus!!!!!!
Owen presents 3 new subsystems to use: Spagyric devices (<3), Transmutation, and... uhm...the one I forget. They can replace Extracts, bombs, or the mutagen. Obviously, the mutagen replacement worked a bit better when you couldn't just take a discovery to get it back, but oh well.
Spagyric devices are really, really cool.
Man, I wish there was a third form of Alternate Alchemy, but there is not. At least not in the Advanced Options - Alchemists' Discoveries book. And it's called Metamorphosis, not Transmutation.
And yes, Spagyric Devices are very awesome.
On an unrelated note, is Talented Ranger still on schedule to be released by the end of the month? I'm making a Captain America style shield user with the Talented Monk for an upcoming game, but I'm taking a dip in Ranger for skills and armor/shield proficiencies. It'd be nice to get a little more out of the dip since track and wild empathy are near useless with only one level in Ranger and there might be something better than one level of Favored Enemy/Ranger's Focus for the character to take, too. Can't wait to see it!
the summoner himself not so much -- the class itself is very much a fixed progression.That's sort of splitting hairs. The summoner is a fixed progression because of the huge amount of customizability of the eidolon.Yeah... but what if I wanted to include options for summoners who didn't HAVE eidolons?
Because I do. :D
I can think of:
- Summoners who summon something else (fey, undead, construct, something else)- Summoners who summon magic items
- Summoners who focus on summon monster spells
- summoners who focus on circles and calling spells
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A vote for Paladin. I'd love to see the full-attack bonus classes knocked out and what you'd do with paladins in particular.
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What I really would like is a Talented book done on Kickstarter
I hope to do that, at some point. But given how chaotic things are for me right now, I'm going to wait until more of the classes are written up before I tackle a Kickstarter. The last thing I want to do is promise people something, take their money for it, and then not be able to deliver it.
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You mean a summoner that summons things instead of being the eidolon's sidekick? Thats just rediculous. Also awesome and gimme gimme.
...damn you owen, now i want the alchemist. Bombless, mutagenless, alchemist as a viable option sounds great.
Hehehe...
That's what I hoped you folks would say.
What I really would like is a Talented book done on KickstarterI hope to do that, at some point. But given how chaotic things are for me right now, I'm going to wait until more of the classes are written up before I tackle a Kickstarter. The last thing I want to do is promise people something, take their money for it, and then not be able to deliver it.
Good man =) But when you're ready I'm sure you'll have plenty of people eager to jump in.
Alchemist. I would love to see where you take with the Talented line, and with what Malwing said...I think that is one class that needs it (in terms of being an actual lead-to-gold type of alchemist).Well if THAT is what you are most interested in, you might want to take a look a Advanced Options: Alchemists Discoveries, which includes options for alchemical metamorphosis (ie turning lead into gold... or silver, or salt, or water... )
{whispers:} Don't forget the Bullet Points: 9 Alchemical Bomb Discoveries while you're at it for a mere $1.00.
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Owen presents 3 new subsystems to use: Spagyric devices (<3), Transmutation, and... uhm...the one I forget. They can replace Extracts, bombs, or the mutagen. Obviously, the mutagen replacement worked a bit better when you couldn't just take a discovery to get it back, but oh well.
Spagyric devices are really, really cool.
Man, I wish there was a third form of Alternate Alchemy, but there is not. At least not in the Advanced Options - Alchemists' Discoveries book. And it's called Metamorphosis, not Transmutation.
And yes, Spagyric Devices are very awesome.
Iron Gods is Coming. [/Ned Slaad]
...so, for a new form of "alchemy", what about nanobots/nanites? Biotic implants?
Similarly, I'd be interested to see what you have planned for the Paladin. I could see you potentially creating a holy knight that would cover the paladin, anti-paladin and other alignment based holy knight types all under the one umbrella. My first impression is that you could link certain powers to the codes of conduct, which would allow you to recreate the core classes using the talented system, but expand the class offerings somewhat and make them less linear in nature.Yep. :)
Antipaladin will be included in the Paladin class. As will my ideas for Partisans and Tyrants.
Will you be doing variants for all 9 alignments?
'cause that I'll buy!
Take my money now!
Alchemist. Give me some Mr. Hyde-mad bombing-WIS dumping love.
Or, you know, options that don't do the above.
As Owen alludes, he's contracted our quartet of NE outsiders. Our task is to give you all an upgrade at your tables, by bringing you a Talented Bestiary. Throw away every single assumption you have about monsters, because you['re going to be able to throw whatever you want at your PCs, or play whatever you want as a PC, without having to be a seasoned designer. We're giving the power back to the people.
I mean, you have to sign for that power in blood. But, come on. We both know you're gonna do it.
Look for teases and ask us questions on the Rogue Genius Games or Four Horsemen Facebook pages.
Oh, and I totally vote Dark Mistress.
So now for "what comes after ranger and witch" that's:
Alchemist: 11 vote
Gunslinger: 7 votes
Magus: 10 votes
Paladin: 3 votes
Summoner: 5 votes
Wizard: 1 vote
(And three votes for the Dark Mistress vote above, which will have to wait until the Talented Bestiary [by RPG Superstar winner Steven T. Helt and his Four Horsemen group] is published)
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Antipaladin will be included in the Paladin class. As will my ideas for Partisans and Tyrants.Will you be doing variants for all 9 alignments?
'cause that I'll buy!
Yes.... and no. Characters of any alignment will be able to take the talented paladin class. But many abilities will be restricted to certain alignments. In some cases it'll be a single element (you must be of good alignment to receive smite evil), and in other cases it'll be an exact alignment (you have to be chaotic evil to take cruelties).
However, a Lawful Evil paladin can take Motivations instead of Cruelties, and a True Neutral paladin can take Balances.
But not every ability has exact equivalences for every alignment. If you are neither good nor evil, you get no smite. But you do have access to more kinds of bonds.
Of course, every paladin has the same number of edges and talents, so even if not every one will look like as total a swap-out of class features as the antipaladin, but they'll all have the same total number of class features.
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The Genius Guide to the Talented Barbarian picks up a 5/5 review from Endzeitgiest! A quote from the review: "This takes the slobbering, wrath-filled barbarian and, as the intro suggests, separates it from the savage warrior, essentially allowing for non-raging barbarians from less urbanized cultures to civilized people who need anger management classes to shamanistic warriors that may slip in and out of animal skins - the barbarian as reimagined herein is much more versatile than the base class it inspired, offering much, much more in the variety of character concepts it supports - and that, ladies and gentleman, is why this one, much like the other talented classes before, now is the standard at my table."