Domains are only powerful if you have a deity granting the specific domain and sub-domain you want.
Plenty of Domains, subdomains, and inquisitions are wastes of ink.
Oftentimes a Deity will only grant one worthwhile domain and several that you will forget exist. For Clerics of those deities a Warpath is nothing but an upgrade.
Also raging as a Cleric isn't so amazing when you lose the ability to do Cleric things while raging.
Exactly, a single domain. Unless you specifically worship a deity that grants the Rage subdomain of Destruction, or another similar power combo Feather Subdomain), the Warpath is usually a better choice.
Clerics benefit a lot from trading 1 domain, while keeping one domain to maintain some bonus spells. For instance, they could keep the Rage subdomain and trade out a less useful domain for a warpath, essentially getting 2 rage powers, levels in rounds of rage, and a ot of extra damage to an attack several times per day in addition to some nice spells you don't normally get AND maneuvers! Great deal! Would take!
Though notice Elricaltovilla and I both are more bothered by the fact that blessings are treated as equal to domains for this trade, and that inquisitors (don't get domain spells) can also trade their one domain for maneuvers.
Clerics can keep 1 domain to maintain bonus spells, and still have a warpath.
Inquisitors can trade their 1 domain that usually doesn't benefit them very much for maneuvers (and stances).
Warpriests can trade their 2 very weak blessing abilities that usually interrupt their use of sacred weapon, sacred armor, and fervor (all use swift actions) to gain maneuvers that do not interrupt these actions. In fact these defined warpaths specifically make sure that they can use their abilities at the same time as their normal class swift action stuff.
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I'll see what can be done about the capstone for the vigilante. More class skills certainly wouldn't be out of the question as well.
I have a small confession to make: the Monk of the Silver Fist was an entirely selfish archetype. I've been dying to play a gauntlet/greave wearing monk for years now, but there was never a way to do it effectively, so I jumped at the chance to put that playstyle in the game. I regret nothing.
If you don't want to play it, you shouldn't be writing it :)
You realize a single domain CAN get you 2 rage powers, level rounds in rage on top of the ability to add a lot of extra damage to an attack several times a day in addition to some nice spells you don't normally get right?
Domains are powerful, ESPECIALLY in PF.
I'm not saying there aren't good domains out there, I'm saying they're far less useful than a Warpath for classes that don't get domain spells out of them. The Inquisitor gains very little from their domain, whereas picking up a Warpath opens up a slew of new abilities that can take the Inquisitor much further than Domain Powers or Inquisitions could hope to match.
Blessings fall under a similar category, because of both swift action glut and their general uselessness.
As far as bringing forth specific examples of good domains, I already mentioned one, the Feather Subdomain. But two good (sub)domains does not mean all domains are created equal. Instead, it just highlights how little the rest of the domains bring to the table.
Ok, now that I've really had a chance to look at each archetype.
Barb- I'm glad it trades away so much stuff. Personally I'd prefer if it traded away the Rage Power at second too in order to offset the early game super power this archetype is going to obtain.
Monk- Pretty awesome, but needs text allowing its mark to be treated as an Armiger's mark for prereq purposes and effects.
Paladin- Truly a protector as opposed to a band-aid. I like how his mechanics accomplish the role of a protector, kudos to the writer.
Stalker- Already game some feedback, but once again for completion sake of this post. This archetype gives a new theme, that of a savvy street cleaner and mechanics to back it up. It would probably benefit from more knowledge in relevant thematic areas especially Nobility and Geography. Unfortunately trades away capstone since he loses Ki, but I am sure that's going to be fixed soon.
Warder- You gonna get Soul Sucked..... I love how this Archetype sounds! So coooooool! If I were to make any suggestion though it'd be to let it bypass IUS as a pre-req for Greater Unarmed Strike or heck even give it away as a bonus feat since their damage dice for the Dark Hand is based on their UAS damage.
Since elemental flux is seriously one of the most anticipated things from POW expanded, are there already some spoilers to entertain the masses? :p
- Will there be a focus (or will there be a subset of maneuvers that focuses) on ranged elemental attacks?
- Will there be a focus (or will there be a subset of maneuvers that focuses) on AOE attacks? (explosions, beams,...)
- Will there be a possibility to do force damage with some maneuvers?
- Will there be synergy some with unarmed attacks, as well as weapon attacks? (discipline weapons, increased effects,...)
- Will the actual mystic be more like a more mystical monk (eat my flamy fists in melee and have my firebolts/firebeams at range) or more like a maneuver wizard (I'll pound you from afar with elemental attacks/bolts/beams/storms and I hope you won't get to me)? Or something else entirely?
Well a little late to the game, but really liking the Harbinger so far.
Never to late to say you like something. Welcome aboard! And enjoy the deadly typhoon known as the Harbinger.
Did you see all the great feats in PoW2? Harbinger (And everyone else) really is getting some love.
Since elemental flux is seriously one of the most anticipated things from POW expanded, are there already some spoilers to entertain the masses? :p
- Will there be a focus (or will there be a subset of maneuvers that focuses) on ranged elemental attacks?
- Will there be a focus (or will there be a subset of maneuvers that focuses) on AOE attacks? (explosions, beams,...)
- Will there be a possibility to do force damage with some maneuvers?
- Will there be synergy some with unarmed attacks, as well as weapon attacks? (discipline weapons, increased effects,...)
- Will the actual mystic be more like a more mystical monk (eat my flamy fists in melee and have my firebolts/firebeams at range) or more like a maneuver wizard (I'll pound you from afar with elemental attacks/bolts/beams/storms and I hope you won't get to me)? Or something else entirely?
I have never seen Elemental Flux, but I can answer some of these with conjecture.
- Ranged: Supposing no discipline Weapons are thrown/ranged weapon or no maneuvers involve shooting energy I believe you can take the feat to add a weapon group to the discipline to apply maneuvers that lack text specifying melee to maneuvers.
- I bet. Too good an opportunity.
- I would prefer not honestly, but I have no idea.
- If there isn't I bet we'll get an archetype for it. DSP has been pretty good about unarmed stuff in PoW.
- My bet is it's going to be more like an Elementally Enhanced warrior that uses a combination of Energy enahanced melee and blasting.
Martial alchemists was completely not what I expected.
Oh, I've forgotten about them. Am I reading it correctly that they can have up to 30 plus bonus ones from INT maneuvers readied at level 20?
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Thanks for the conjecture Insain Dragoon :)
The reason why I'm wondering about ranged elemental attacks is because it would make for a more mystical themed alternative to the more traditional solar wind. Instead of attacks with bows, you could have pure elemental bolt style attacks (like a street fighter hadoken) or even elemental damage enhanced fists at range (a bit like the "blood crow" spell which screams martial maneuver to me).
All this in addition to the more traditional melee attacks (like a shoryken from street fighter). In effect you could have a small set of maneuvers for melee strikes and a small set for ranged/AOE strikes in addition to the rest (counters, boosts, party buffs,...)
Some kind of elemental beam or lance attack (and other AOE's) is just me wanting a kamehameha :p
Thanks for the conjecture Insain Dragoon :)
The reason why I'm wondering about ranged elemental attacks is because it would make for a more mystical themed alternative to the more traditional solar wind. Instead of attacks with bows, you could have pure elemental bolt style attacks (like a street fighter hadoken) or even elemental damage enhanced fists at range (a bit like the "blood crow" spell which screams martial maneuver to me).
All this in addition to the more traditional melee attacks (like a shoryken from street fighter). In effect you could have a small set of maneuvers for melee strikes and a small set for ranged/AOE strikes in addition to the rest (counters, boosts, party buffs,...)
Some kind of elemental beam or lance attack (and other AOE's) is just me wanting a kamehameha :p
I can tell you without any conjecture that Riven Hourglass (The mystic's other discipline previewed here: Riven Hourglass) contains multiple cone shaped maneuvers.
Hope that helps. It definitely sets a precedent for the kind of thing you want from Elemental Flux.
Thanks for the information! Will check the Riven Hourglass beta.
Martial alchemists was completely not what I expected.Oh, I've forgotten about them. Am I reading it correctly that they can have up to 30 plus bonus ones from INT maneuvers readied at level 20?
So I'm not sure I know exactly what you're asking, but Martial Extract allows the Alchemist/Investigator (nobody's commented on how the investigator gets it too!) to trade Extract slots for Maneuvers on a 1:1 ratio. You have to trade out ones that are of equal or lower level than your Extract slots (so nothing above 6th level) but if you really did swap out every spell you've got, then yes, you'd have an insane amount of maneuvers known/readied, not that'd I'd be super inclined to recommend it.
After double checking I'm sad to see that the Demon Hand Warlock and Dervish Defender Warder archetypes are incompatible :(
They both modify proficiencies and Clad in Steel.
I don't know how high priority it would be, but I'd love for them to be compatible.
For Dark Wraith reasons of course....
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I would like to start by saying I bought Path of War and I really like it. Whenever I play a pathfinder game, I try to convince the GM to allow it as there is no way for me to enjoy playing a martial without it. I am sorry about a bit of a rambling post, I do not have time to go over it and edit it until it is easy to read and to the point. Hopefully it helps you consider and reconsider some decisions so that we can get the best PoW2 possible.
We're really glad to hear how much you're enjoying the Path of War, it's really the reason we do this, because all of us at Dreamscarred Press want to put out a great product our players can have fun with and enjoy.
It would, however be much appreciated in the future if you did take the time to edit and format your posts a bit. It makes it much easier for designers like me and other fans to read and respond to what you say. However, I'll do my best to address your concerns.
1st Party Martials vs. Initiators. Specifically Fighter vs. Warlord
This has been brought up numerous times. Concerns about the Stalker, Warder and Warlord being "too powerful" compared to fighters, monks, paladins, etc. at low levels (and even into high levels) were numerous before even the first Path of War book was released. These concerns haven't disappeared at all, but they've been talked nearly to death on this and other threads on multiple boards across the internet.
The bottom line is, the Fighter, the Rogue, the Monk and to a lesser extent, the Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin are all pretty terrible classes. They bring very little to the table, are often ineffective at completing their supposed jobs and can barely contribute anything outside of their very narrow fields of focus.
You complained about the Warlord being better than the Fighter at being a fighter. Well, look at what the fighter has to offer: Feats, a scaling damage bonus, and a scaling AC bonus. That's all his class features are. If we were to limit the Warlord to the same level of "power" that the fighter had, you'd end up with a Warlord whose class abilities were... feats, a scaling damage bonus and a scaling AC bonus.
If you're going to make such a comparison, then why haven't you done the same with Fighter and Barbarian? Barbarians have the same BAB, more HP, a better scaling damage bonus, a better skill list, rage powers which blow feats out of the water and DR to match the fighter's scaling AC bonus. The Barbarian is a better Fighter than the Fighter.
Our point of comparison cannot be and is not the fighter, the monk or the rogue. That would only lead to more unappealing options for martial players. Our point of comparison is the Magus, the Alchemist, the Investigator, Warpriest, Inquisitor and to a lesser extent Sorcerers, Oracles, Witches and Druids.
TL;DR: The Warlord being a better fighter than the fighter is not the fault of the Warlord. It is the fault of the fighter for having no good class features or variety to its abilities.
Thoughts on Archetypes
I gather from what I read that you're unaware that we just released an archetype document for playtesting yesterday?
Here is a link for you:
Path of War: Expanded Archetypes Document
Archetypes for the Alchemist/Investigator, Barbarian, Monk, Paladin and new archetypes for the Stalker and Warder are included in that document.
We've made announcements to this effect before, but initiating archetypes for non-initiators will not be getting maneuvers above 6th level. This is to protect the uniqueness of the base initiator classes and to offer options to DMs and Players who want to experiment with Path of War but aren't sure they want to dive in head first.
There are more archetypes planned, the only classes that will not be getting archetypes are the 9th level casters and some of the classes from the ACG.
TL;DR: Read up on the archetypes we've already written and the announcement we've made about these archetypes an you'll see the efforts we're going to to bring an excellent product to the table.
Thoughts on Warpaths vs. Domains/Blessings
The thing about Domains and Blessings is that, unless you're a cleric (and sometimes even then) they're pretty much crap. Why the Inquisitor and Warpriest couldn't get the bonus spells of up to 6th level from their associated domains I'll never understand. Blessings are even worse as they rely almost exclusively on Swift and Standard actions, requiring the Warpriest to choose between using his best class features (Fervor buffing) or doing damage (his job!) and using a sub-par ability with limited usefulness.
Warpaths are better than domains (minus spells) and blessings (nearly exclusively) because, like the fighter, paizo refused to hand out anything really useful or game changing.
There may be tweaks to the Warpaths incoming. I'm not sure, as they aren't under my purview but we do take your thoughts under consideration.
TL;DR: That Domains/Blessings are almost always a worse choice than the Warpath is not a design flaw with Warpaths, but rather an issue with Domains (for Inquisitors) and Blessings themselves not offering enough. Reigning in Warpaths to match the power level of Domains/Blessings wouldn't make Domains/Blessings better, it would just make Warpaths worse.
Some updates have been made to the Class Archetypes:
Knight Disciples lose Divine Bond
Vigilantes now have a capstone (and some extra class skills)
Some minor grammar corrections.
Thanks for the updates! The vigilantes' capstone looks really fun!
Another update: Privateers got their ki pool back!
Just realized the Fiend's grip is a Primary Natural Attack.
So when it's the only attack made that turn you get str*1.5, you cannot full attack with it, but it can be used with manufactured weapons. Additionally this Natural weapon has reach, so it cannot be used to attack adjacent foes.
A few different ways to use it seem to be
shield (Grip) and 1 handed weapon
Gives you threatened area at 5 and 10 ft. Will give you str*1.5 when using strikes. Against large foes you can full attack with 1hw and use your grip as a secondary natural attack. This has the benefit of your Warder maintaining sword and board. You want the shield master feat or to enchant the shield as a weapon.
Gauntlet and shield
Same as above, except weaker actually.
Gauntlet and 2 handed weapon
Since they both modify proficiencies, may not stack with Zweihander Sentinel. 1*5str on everything, but kind of goes against all the cool Warder features/feats involving shield. Overall worst choice.
Joke: Double Shield
2 Weapon fighting with shield bashes+ a floating hand at reach=MAXIMUM TURTLE. Super cool and semi viable joke build.
So far it seems the best way to use this archetype is to use a heavy shield and a 1 handed weapon. Keep both decently enchanted and enjoy your Fiend's grip protecting you at 10 ft/extending your threatened area for your full round recovery.
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To add some ammo to Lirya, I don't think the method to fixing martials should be "pump up damage/defenses considerably for levels 1-5." Flurry strike in particular is quite a doozy! As a standard action make 2 full BAB attacks with +2 damage on a discipline weapon, which includes plenty of 2 handed 1.5*str 1 for 3 power attack weapons, and laugh. Ouch! That's better than a level 6 full attack.
The disciplines that I think suceed most are the disciplines that give something aside from damage, such as Veiled Moon.
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To add some ammo to Lirya, I don't think the method to fixing martials should be "pump up damage/defenses considerably for levels 1-5." Flurry strike in particular is quite a doozy! As a standard action make 2 full BAB attacks with +2 damage on a discipline weapon, which includes plenty of 2 handed 1.5*str 1 for 3 power attack weapons, and laugh. Ouch! That's better than a level 6 full attack.
The disciplines that I think suceed most are the disciplines that give something aside from damage, such as Veiled Moon.
Which is why I still firmly believe Golden Lion is the epitome of disciplines. Not only will you feel like a champ, but your party will too.
Silver Crane can come too.
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Golden Lion is my favourite discipline as well!
Paladin loses Lay on Hands.Yep. Replaced with another ability.
Makes him unable to take Battle Fervor though, kinda counter-intuitive.
Makes him unable to take Battle Fervor though, kinda counter-intuitive.Paladin loses Lay on Hands.Yep. Replaced with another ability.
Only if you are, for some reason, operating on the assumption the paladin should have access to everything published in the book at the same time.
Archetypes prohibit feats that classes could use normally, fairly often. I don't see why warpaths and the like would be any different.
Oh, I guess I shouldn't take that archetype and use the feat with martial maneuvers vanilla Paladin gets!
Wait a second...
Oh, I guess I shouldn't take that archetype and use the feat with martial maneuvers vanilla Paladin gets!
Wait a second...
Because the archetype is the only way to get maneuvers? Martial Training is a "thing" since the first PoW book, as well as multiclassing. Imagine that, options!
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You wanted it, now you have it. I present to you: the Path of War: Expanded Traditions.
TWENTY. EIGHT. PAGES. OF TRADITIONS. Now covering every Discipline currently included in the Path of War line. I will note that we don't have Elemental Flux released just yet, but we're working on that.
In the meantime, I'm eagerly taking feedback & testing. Some of these bonuses will need tweaking, optional rule or no.
+2 unconditional profane Will for The Quills looks too strong.
Reverents of the Lance still says, well, "Piercing Lance".
Okay, threatening adjacent squares made me write it. Why not limit allegiance benefits with +2 untyped bonus to discipline skill, or get rid of them altogether? It feels weird that a member of a class that doesn't get Piercing Thunder by default is better at using spears than a member of a class that does get it.
Also "adjacent" wording breaks on sizes larger than Medium.
Defensive Reach of Zweihander Sentinel also has the same wording.
How about making allegiance bonuses traits? Players already get a lot from trading disciplines via the organization system, so why not make the mechanical bonuses into traits requiring membership and balance around that?
You wanted it, now you have it. I present to you: the Path of War: Expanded Traditions.
TWENTY. EIGHT. PAGES. OF TRADITIONS. Now covering every Discipline currently included in the Path of War line. I will note that we don't have Elemental Flux released just yet, but we're working on that.
In the meantime, I'm eagerly taking feedback & testing. Some of these bonuses will need tweaking, optional rule or no.
YES! This is a thing I have been wanting ever since they were put in PoW1. Thanks for writing these.
I want to get them all read through by the end of the day.
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I feel like the tradition bonuses are getting even more dramatic. Like, the Acolytes of the Arrow get you nice proficiencies and let you double up on enhancement bonuses for melee combat, and the Reverents of the Lance make you great at using reach weapons and utterly foil any chance of subterfuge by evil or chaotic outsiders.
A lot of these are better than spending a feat, and they come absolutely free. To the point where making a character that doesn't use a martial tradition seems like seriously laming yourself.
Any news on the Mystic?
I am hoping for an archetype for Warders that gives them the Eternal Guardian discipline, a Sleeping Goddess path for the Psychic Warrior archetype, and a version of the Harbinger that gets Black Seraph. I know these could be achieved via traditions, but they feel like natural enough fits that limiting them by organization feels wrong. It may be a bit late in the game to add any of these, which is entirely understandable, so until I can craft a few myself, I'll be making due with two houserules: First, all primary initiators have 5 disciplines to start with, which lets me add in the extras for both warders and harbingers neatly enough. Second, any initiator may swap one discipline from their list for any other discipline, sans tradition, at 1st initiator level (so, no swapping prestige class access, but creating a broken blade harbinger is certainly a possibility).
Another neat, clean option may be the ability to access a discipline via trait, simply making it an available choice for any source of learned maneuvers.
I have finished reading over the new traditions and I must say I like them. Oddly enough, my favorites ended up being the Sultanate of Beggars. From the oxymoron of their name, to their general attitude, I enjoy every aspect of them.
Next up are the Loyal Order of the Branded Waerloch. I really enjoy the idea of a group of people that have betrayed someone or something, and realized that they didn't like the taste. Redemption is hard earned, but a strong motivation for those that actually seek it.
Some Allegiance Benefits feel particularly strong. Specifically, the Cagebreaker Brotherhood (Untyped attack bonus for a longer duration that a boost. Provides rerolls to multiple effects in one use). Reverents of the Lance grant something very similar to an iconic Zweihander Sentinel ability, while still granting an additional and pretty cool bonus.
I think the rest of the Allegiance Benefits are in line with what was presented in PoW1.
Going to take a brief moment to remind folks that the bonuses granted by Traditions (aside from maneuver access) are explicitly optional. That in mind, I do want to balance them out and I'm taking feedback on their relative power level, but...
The thing is, amusingly enough, that Traditions began as a place to put Codes of Conduct, as a concept. There are two major schools of thought on Codes of Conduct, the first being that a roleplaying restriction is enough to justify a mechanical bonus, and the second being pretty much the precise opposite. Allegiance Bonuses exist for gaming groups in the first camp (and others interested in them), but no DM should feel obligated to include them.
That in mind, I'm thus far hearing that the Cagebreakers and the Reverents might need some changing. I'm a little confused on the reports of the Quill bonus to saves being strong when no one batted an eyelash at an equivalent bonus to Fortitude in the previous book, but it's under consideration.
I'm a little confused on the reports of the Quill bonus to saves being strong when no one batted an eyelash at an equivalent bonus to Fortitude in the previous book
IIRC there were no traditions in the playtest for the first book.
Traditions were play tested prior to the first book's release. Additionally, the first book included traditions for: Black Seraph, Silver Crane, Primal Fury, Iron Tortoise, Scarlet Throne, and Veiled Moon.
I actually was very against Scarlet Sentinel's allegiance bonus and posted feedback saying so. I didn't repost my feedback multiple times because that's really pretentious and rude. It's unchanged and I still don't like it at all, but I didn't say anything post release because no promises were made that it would be changed.
Just curious, is ErrantX still around on this whole thing?
He's the one working on the Mystic last I heard.
I don't work for DSP and this is just speculation, but I think he's taking a short break to do stuff and will probably be back later at full swing. Since Prince took a short leave I bet Chris took that opportunity to take a leave of his own.
I actually was very against Scarlet Sentinel's allegiance bonus and posted feedback saying so. I didn't repost my feedback multiple times because that's really pretentious and rude. It's unchanged and I still don't like it at all, but I didn't say anything post release because no promises were made that it would be changed.
It used to be immunity to compulsion effects. It is not that now. Or are you against what it is currently?
Against both. +2 vs will and additional +4 vs compulsion is way too much good stuff for such an easy Oath to follow.
It would have made more sense if joining the Organization gave you an Oath and swapped your Disciplines then gave you access to a unique trait.
Swapping a discipline in many cases is already a boost enough compared to the draw back of an Oath. Hack Oaths often aren't even drawbacks if they were something you were planning to roleplay anyway.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the only discipline without a tradition is Steel Serpent. Is that intentional?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the only discipline without a tradition is Steel Serpent. Is that intentional?
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.