What is the hidden secret of the Tower Shield?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I'm wracking my brain on this one, as here we have an object that weighs 45 lbs and saddles you with -2 to melee attacks, max dex of +2, and -10 to armor check penalty. All to get +2 AC over a regular heavy shield as well as using it as cover from one direction (takes a standard action to set up). OK, maybe you really need that extra +2 at low-level. I dunno. You can't even bash with it.

The mystery part: Why is this thing stringently reserved for the Fighter class as if it held some gimmick they alone could exploit and weren't going to share because it let them stand out as unique and awesome? (And I'm not talking about archetypes or even Armor Training, since this has been going on since 3rd edition.)


It's just something that was set in 3rd edition as you said and there wasn't enough interest to change it. If you can say one step down from a fighter by leaving tower shield proficiency out for your character class, it's an easy sacrifice to make.

They do become a little better with the mobile bulwark style line.


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Fighter/archetypes/paizo-fight er-archetypes/tower-shield-specialist

Up to level 5 I suppose. Don’t take -2 to Hit with some other bonuses.

Then because it is hilarious go shield champion brawler. Fight with a spiked heavy shield (and throw it at enemies) while defending yourself with a tower shield.


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Every other class has figured out Tower Shields aren't worth it, but they haven't told the Fighters yet; that's the big secret.


only thing that tower shields are good for is to be used by fighters while they defend archers.( or attached to barricade stands in front of said archers or at choke points for siege warfare)

which is a primary use
others include :
spartan wall with spears over the top of the shields

placed around a ship vertically over the edge granting a little more protection from being boarded.

tower shield is a military shield and not much else.

not good for adventurers


Steelfiredragon wrote:
only thing that tower shields are good for is to be used by fighters while they defend archers

That doesn't even work in Pathfinder by default:

Quote:
When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only.


if your only looking for defense a fighter can get it so that a tower shield has like a max dex of 8(if you use mithril) and like next to no armor check penalty

Scarab Sages

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A tower shield with a big fighter behind it works great for plugging a door that has enemies on the other side...or a hallway... or any really narrow path really


Also, Mobile Bulwark Style.


Lady-J wrote:
if your only looking for defense a fighter can get it so that a tower shield has like a max dex of 8(if you use mithril) and like next to no armor check penalty

Tower shields are mostly wood and do not benefit from mithral. You can make one from dark wood to reduce the armor check penalty, but no special materials can be used to make a tower shield and increase the maximum dex.


Tower shields are pretty good if you're doing extreme AC stacking and they're one of the best ways to get into "only hit on a natural 20" territory, although you typically need class feature or feat support since a -2 attack penalty while losing the use of one of your arms is a pretty severe offensive handicap that can leave your character anemic if you don't build carefully.

If we're going to bring up realism... 45 lbs is just way out of the ballpark. I've done some research on historical shields before, and what I've found (as is usually the case whenever you're looking at historical arms and armor) is that there's a lot of overlap between categories. Shields in the tower style range from a low of around 12 lbs to a high of 22 lbs (I found some sources going as high as 25 lbs, but other sources were skeptical). Large shields of the rounded or kite style, on the other hand, can go up to 18 lbs. This means there's actually a very large overlapping range between a "heavy shield" and a "tower shield". Even beyond shape and weight you can have variations based on material and how it's held. In light of this, I think it's kind of weird that tower shields get their own wildly divergent category of shields when in reality they are just one of many countless variations.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I always figured a tower shield was basically strapping a 6 foot square of wood to your arm and trying to fight that way. Basically a mantlet. Thus the overwhelming penalties. It would be pretty tough to fight with a door on your arm.

Game mechanics wise, having the ability to suddenly have cover whenever and wherever you like is pretty powerful if used wisely. Cover lets you avoid AoOs - and technically, hide, but I'm not sure how to conceptualize that. But, say, a cleric or inquisitor with a tower shield could nearly always prevent AoOs from spell casting. An alchemist or gunslinger who targets touch AC could have a good source of cover against counter attacks, while their -2 to hit barely matters.

Just remember to let go of your giant piece of wood if you fall in water so it doesn't drag to you down to a watery grave with that ACP. :P


My thoughts on the tower shield is that it seems hard to use by yourself with the cover deal as it seems unusable for melee combat. If you prop it up then the enemy can 5ft to your side and bypass it right? Is there any way around this issue?


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SorrySleeping wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
if your only looking for defense a fighter can get it so that a tower shield has like a max dex of 8(if you use mithril) and like next to no armor check penalty
Tower shields are mostly wood and do not benefit from mithral. You can make one from dark wood to reduce the armor check penalty, but no special materials can be used to make a tower shield and increase the maximum dex.

so whats this then? cuz it looks like mithril to me


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Lady-J wrote:
SorrySleeping wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
if your only looking for defense a fighter can get it so that a tower shield has like a max dex of 8(if you use mithril) and like next to no armor check penalty
Tower shields are mostly wood and do not benefit from mithral. You can make one from dark wood to reduce the armor check penalty, but no special materials can be used to make a tower shield and increase the maximum dex.
so whats this then? cuz it looks like mithril to me

A special specific magic item that is made a certain way and free to break normal rules.


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Lady-J wrote:
SorrySleeping wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
if your only looking for defense a fighter can get it so that a tower shield has like a max dex of 8(if you use mithril) and like next to no armor check penalty
Tower shields are mostly wood and do not benefit from mithral. You can make one from dark wood to reduce the armor check penalty, but no special materials can be used to make a tower shield and increase the maximum dex.
so whats this then? cuz it looks like mithril to me

Its a tower shield.

Made of mithril. Exactly like you are thinking.
However, like Chess is saying, the Force Tower is an exception, and a unique magic item, so it overrides the general rules.
General rules state that only a weapon/armor/item made primarily from metal are affected.
Tower shields are made of wood.
While you could build a T shield out of metal, you would have to do your own conversions and houserule your own finished product first, as there are actually not any rules on what a metal tower shield looks like, so working with GM territory there.

ryric wrote:

I always figured a tower shield was basically strapping a 6 foot square of wood to your arm and trying to fight that way. Basically a mantlet. Thus the overwhelming penalties. It would be pretty tough to fight with a door on your arm.

Game mechanics wise, having the ability to suddenly have cover whenever and wherever you like is pretty powerful if used wisely. Cover lets you avoid AoOs - and technically, hide, but I'm not sure how to conceptualize that. But, say, a cleric or inquisitor with a tower shield could nearly always prevent AoOs from spell casting. An alchemist or gunslinger who targets touch AC could have a good source of cover against counter attacks, while their -2 to hit barely matters.

Just remember to let go of your giant piece of wood if you fall in water so it doesn't drag to you down to a watery grave with that ACP. :P

Sadly, you can't :(

The Full Cover aspect only lasts until the beginning of your next turn. And takes a Standard to set up...
So you can't do just about anything if you want to hide behind your shield...
Mobile Bulwark does help massively here tho :)

And drowning yourself with a piece of wood is hilarious.

Also, you have no idea how much I wish I could shield bash/bull rush with a tower shield :( Its a door! Let me show someone the way out D:


ryric wrote:
Just remember to let go of your giant piece of wood if you fall in water so it doesn't drag to you down to a watery grave with that ACP. :P

I thought wood floated?


Actually... brainstorming time here >:)
You could cast a Polymorph any Object on a wooden tower shield and transform it into metal, but you could not make it out of a special material.
Is there another spell we could cast after this that could change its composition?
Only one I know of is Transmute Metal to Wood, but that is backwards of what we want :(

Any ideas?


Zelfin wrote:
ryric wrote:
Just remember to let go of your giant piece of wood if you fall in water so it doesn't drag to you down to a watery grave with that ACP. :P

I thought wood floated?

Well, ya it does. But how do you determine if YOU sink or swim? You make a swim check. Tower shields grant you a -10 to your swim check...

Rules as Written (and absurd) if you take off the shield and cling to it, it will float. BUT if it is strapped to your arm, it will drag you down into the depths like a ton of bricks :S
Zelfin wrote:
SorrySleeping wrote:
Tower shields are mostly wood and do not benefit from mithral. You can make one from dark wood to reduce the armor check penalty, but no special materials can be used to make a tower shield and increase the maximum dex.

Is this a house rule?

Not quite. Its an inferred rule. I recall reading somewhere that Tower Shields were made of wood, but I cannot seem to find that bit of wording :P

Maybe it was in print somewhere but did not make it onto the srd?
Anyways, the inferred part comes from trying to figure out how much a Tower Shield weighs and its hardness.
calculations and explinations:
Go to Equipment, Damaging Objects and look at the Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points table (a mouthful)
A Wooden shield has 5 Hardness and a metal shield has 10 hardness.
A tower shield has 5 hardness.
Further down, in the Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points table, wodden objects have 5 hardness and steel objects have 10.
So the tower shield matches the wooden shields.
The tower shield does, however have 20 hps, same as the heavy steel shield, but that is probably because of its extra bulk.

So basically tower shields have rules written for them as if they were wood, and other shields have rules written for them that specify them as being made of wood OR metal.

If you wanted to create a tower shield made out of special metals, you could, but there are no rules written for how you would go about it exactly. First you would have to design a steel version. Upping the hardness to 10 is easy, but hps is a little more grey.
Wood has 10/in, steel has 30/in, so 3x seems appropreate.
however, light wodden shield has 7hp, light steel has 10hp, so about 1.4x greater.
Heavy wood has 15, heavy steel has 20, so about 1.3x greater.
Finally, a tower shield has no comparison, but it has 20hp, so which of the above do you use?
Lets go with 3x for now, its the greatest.
So: a metal tower shield now has (arbitrary) 10 hardness, 60hp, and 45lb. To make it mithral, we increase its hardness to 15 and drop the weight down to 22.5lb.
Steel has 30hp/in, same as mithral, so those should be the same: 60.

So, if we tried to create a mithral tower shield it would have 15 hardness, 60hp, and 22.5lb.
But it could also just as easilly have 28hp instead.

Point is, there are rules for wooden tower shields, but not for metal ones. You could create your own, but you would have to write the stats for it yourself. If you wanted a special metal, you would first have to create the metal one and base it off of that.
You also wouldn/t be able to take a metal tower shield into PFS.


It can be kinda useful for a Stalwart Defender: once you take the Bulwark power, and enemy trying to bluff you or use acrobatics to move through your threatened area add your ACP to the DC of the roll. With a tower shield and masterwork fullplate, that’s an extra 15 on the DC. Throw in a reach weapon and you can get really good at tanking and plugging narrow aisles. Good luck doing much damage, though.

Sczarni

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
Zelfin wrote:
ryric wrote:
Just remember to let go of your giant piece of wood if you fall in water so it doesn't drag to you down to a watery grave with that ACP. :P

I thought wood floated?

Its a Witch!


Gobo Horde wrote:
Rules as Written (and absurd) if you take off the shield and cling to it, it will float. BUT if it is strapped to your arm, it will drag you down into the depths like a ton of bricks :S

Now I'm imagining a pavise floating with someone trapped underneath it desperately trying to undo the strap holding it to their arm.


There is another class that I recently found out has Tower Shield proficiency naturally. I found it when I was making a fake character sheet to hide the fact that my character was a Vigilante.

The Aristocrat is proficient in all simple and martial weapons, and with all armor and shields.

Grand Lodge

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The point of the Tower Shield is to be a Tower Shield Specialist Fighter, take the Tower Shield Specialist feat, and comfort enchantment to get that ACP to 0 and then use shield brace to wield a polearm while still getting 1.5x str to damage.


Gobo Horde wrote:

Actually... brainstorming time here >:)

You could cast a Polymorph any Object on a wooden tower shield and transform it into metal, but you could not make it out of a special material.
Is there another spell we could cast after this that could change its composition?
Only one I know of is Transmute Metal to Wood, but that is backwards of what we want :(

Any ideas?

Transfiguring Touch lets you do your own gilding. Or let you make a board that you can use as a very improvised bludgeon when it comes to werewolves, I suppose. You could even add in a thin layer of lead to it in order to hide behind it to avoid certain divination spells.


Ironwood makes wood as hard as steel for 1 day/level. It doesn't change it into other special materials though.


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Tower shields are ridiculous items that mostly work well for Stalwart Defenders, as noted above. It's a way to add some levity. We had a character stomping around with a tower shield. It WAS an actual door strapped to her arm. With door handle.


Sissyl wrote:
Tower shields are ridiculous items that mostly work well for Stalwart Defenders, as noted above. It's a way to add some levity. We had a character stomping around with a tower shield. It WAS an actual door strapped to her arm. With door handle.

I can't find it right now, but I recall artwork of an adventuring party where the Half orc is wielding a Sarcophagus lid as a tower shield (or maybe a heavy shield). Anybody know what I am talking about?


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Entombed with the pharaohs, perhaps?


Jurassic Pratt wrote:
The point of the Tower Shield is to be a Tower Shield Specialist Fighter, take the Tower Shield Specialist feat, and comfort enchantment to get that ACP to 0

Well, at 11th level it'd get to 0 by my math, unless there's an item that does to Armor Training what Gloves of Dueling do for Weapon Training (I assume there is) and the character has it. (Spending 5k for Comfort on a shield makes no sense.)

Easier: dump the tower shield, instantly lose its -10 ACP, strap on an ordinary heavy shield, and take Dodge for the feat. AC-1, but you can be any fighter archetype you want.

Quote:
and then use shield brace to wield a polearm while still getting 1.5x str to damage.

Ooo! That's a shiny new penny I haven't seen before.... 2016 mintage, I see.

<stoops to pick up>

That'll see some use.


Slim Jim wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
...and then use shield brace to wield a polearm while still getting 1.5x str to damage.

Ooo! That's a shiny new penny I haven't seen before.... 2016 mintage, I see.

<stoops to pick up>

That'll see some use.

Just be aware that if you play PFS you treat the weapon as one handed.

campaign clarifications wrote:
When using the Shield Brace feat, treat the polearm or spear as a one-handed weapon. More specifically, when calculating the damage the weapon deals, it uses your Strength bonus instead of 1.5 times your Strength bonus, and it counts as a one- handed weapon when determining extra damage from the Power Attack feat. You may use Two- Weapon Fighting and other feats as if the polearm were a one handed weapon.


Wow...that makes it even better.

"Wut? This l'il thing? My darling baby? Why, she's a gen-u-wine dwarven longhammer! Watch me make her spin on a single fingertip."


Gobo Horde wrote:


Not quite. Its an inferred rule. I recall reading somewhere that Tower Shields were made of wood, but I cannot seem to find that bit of wording :P
Maybe it was in print somewhere but did not make it onto the srd?

The Core Rulebook specifically describes the tower shield as wooden.


Gobo Horde wrote:
Zelfin wrote:
ryric wrote:
Just remember to let go of your giant piece of wood if you fall in water so it doesn't drag to you down to a watery grave with that ACP. :P

I thought wood floated?

Well, ya it does. But how do you determine if YOU sink or swim? You make a swim check. Tower shields grant you a -10 to your swim check...

Rules as Written (and absurd) if you take off the shield and cling to it, it will float. BUT if it is strapped to your arm, it will drag you down into the depths like a ton of bricks :S

Not necessarily. A failed swim check means you go underwater, like being stuck under the tower shield your arm is strapped to (and is floating above you). ;)


Bill Dunn wrote:
Gobo Horde wrote:


Not quite. Its an inferred rule. I recall reading somewhere that Tower Shields were made of wood, but I cannot seem to find that bit of wording :P
Maybe it was in print somewhere but did not make it onto the srd?
The Core Rulebook specifically describes the tower shield as wooden.

There are 3 different towershields in 3 different books that make them out of non wood materials [1 hardback].

Phalanx Shield, Armor Master's Handbook
Force Tower, Ultimate Equipment
Equalizer Shield, Champions of Purity

Chess Pwn wrote:
A special specific magic item that is made a certain way and free to break normal rules.

That's kind of a moot point as you have to have a non-magic mithral tower shield to enchant BEFORE you can make that "special specific magic item". It's be one thing if it said 'it acts like mithral'; however it says it IS mithral. Nothing in the three shields listed indicates that magic is involved in it's mundane construction.


Slim Jim wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
The point of the Tower Shield is to be a Tower Shield Specialist Fighter, take the Tower Shield Specialist feat, and comfort enchantment to get that ACP to 0

Well, at 11th level it'd get to 0 by my math, unless there's an item that does to Armor Training what Gloves of Dueling do for Weapon Training (I assume there is) and the character has it. (Spending 5k for Comfort on a shield makes no sense.)

Easier: dump the tower shield, instantly lose its -10 ACP, strap on an ordinary heavy shield, and take Dodge for the feat. AC-1, but you can be any fighter archetype you want.

Quote:
and then use shield brace to wield a polearm while still getting 1.5x str to damage.

Ooo! That's a shiny new penny I haven't seen before.... 2016 mintage, I see.

<stoops to pick up>

That'll see some use.

Just... Be aware...

You apply the shields ACP to your attack rolls. On top of the tower shields -2 to hit penalty...
The Fighter COULD wield a polearm and a tower shield together at lvl 1, but he would be taking a -12 to hit penalty to do so >_>


graystone wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
Gobo Horde wrote:


Not quite. Its an inferred rule. I recall reading somewhere that Tower Shields were made of wood, but I cannot seem to find that bit of wording :P
Maybe it was in print somewhere but did not make it onto the srd?
The Core Rulebook specifically describes the tower shield as wooden.

There are 3 different towershields in 3 different books that make them out of non wood materials [1 hardback].

Phalanx Shield, Armor Master's Handbook
Force Tower, Ultimate Equipment
Equalizer Shield, Champions of Purity

Chess Pwn wrote:
A special specific magic item that is made a certain way and free to break normal rules.
That's kind of a moot point as you have to have a non-magic mithral tower shield to enchant BEFORE you can make that "special specific magic item". It's be one thing if it said 'it acts like mithral'; however it says it IS mithral. Nothing in the three shields listed indicates that magic is involved in it's mundane construction.

Well ya, that is true, but you could also read it another way, you cannot make a mithral tower shield but to craft those items you NEED a mithral tower shield, which you cannot make.

So you cannot craft the item because, RAW, the item needed to craft it cannot be made, and without the base mithral shield, you do not have the required item to enchant the magic shield.
Do note: FINDING a Force Tower as loot is perfectly fine, but CREATING one may be impossible.
Now I am NOT weighing in on this, and this is not necessarily my opinion on it (still sorting it out in my head) but it IS a valid reading of the rules. Inability to craft and necessity of the item are not mutually exclusive. It is also not the first time Paizo has wrote conflicting or unclear rules regarding a corner case :P See the one/two-handedness of a polearm using the Shield Brace feat above as an immediate example.


graystone wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
The Core Rulebook specifically describes the tower shield as wooden.

There are 3 different towershields in 3 different books that make them out of non wood materials [1 hardback].

Phalanx Shield, Armor Master's Handbook
Force Tower, Ultimate Equipment
Equalizer Shield, Champions of Purity

Those are magic items (as is the other mithril one linked up-page).

AFAIK, there is no current RAW source of a mundane non-wood tower shield.

Gobo Horde wrote:

Just... Be aware...

You apply the shields ACP to your attack rolls. On top of the tower shields -2 to hit penalty...

Only if you're non-proficient.


graystone wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
Gobo Horde wrote:


Not quite. Its an inferred rule. I recall reading somewhere that Tower Shields were made of wood, but I cannot seem to find that bit of wording :P
Maybe it was in print somewhere but did not make it onto the srd?
The Core Rulebook specifically describes the tower shield as wooden.

There are 3 different towershields in 3 different books that make them out of non wood materials [1 hardback].

Phalanx Shield, Armor Master's Handbook
Force Tower, Ultimate Equipment
Equalizer Shield, Champions of Purity

Maybe, but it's not like things haven't been published that violate various nitpicky written (and unwritten) rules before. So exactly what those non-wooden tower shields signify is ambiguous.


Quote:
Quote:
You apply the shields ACP to your attack rolls. On top of the tower shields -2 to hit penalty...
Only if you're non-proficient.

I made the same mistake. The Shield Brace feat applies the shields ACP to your attack rolls even if proficient.

Quote:
Benefit(s): You can use a two-handed weapon sized appropriately for you from the polearm or spears weapon group while also using a light, heavy, or tower shield with which you are proficient. The shield’s armor check penalty (if any) applies to attacks made with the weapon.


Slim Jim wrote:
AFAIK, there is no current RAW source of a mundane non-wood tower shield.

Those 3 have item creation info for them. As such, you CAN make them and are intended to be able to: you have to be able to for the items or the construction section would be missing like that of an artifact.

These aren't Schrödinger's items here: there existence forces metal towershields into existence as mundane ones need to exist for the items to exist. It's either that or 3 separate books intentionally made erroneous material that can't work as written...


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graystone wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
AFAIK, there is no current RAW source of a mundane non-wood tower shield.

Those 3 have item creation info for them. As such, you CAN make them and are intended to be able to: you have to be able to for the items or the construction section would be missing like that of an artifact.

These aren't Schrödinger's items here: there existence forces metal towershields into existence as mundane ones need to exist for the items to exist. It's either that or 3 separate books intentionally made erroneous material that can't work as written...

I'm thinking it's 3 errors. It's not much different than potions made with personal spells making their way into print on more than one occasion.

Grand Lodge

Gobo Horde wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
The point of the Tower Shield is to be a Tower Shield Specialist Fighter, take the Tower Shield Specialist feat, and comfort enchantment to get that ACP to 0

Well, at 11th level it'd get to 0 by my math, unless there's an item that does to Armor Training what Gloves of Dueling do for Weapon Training (I assume there is) and the character has it. (Spending 5k for Comfort on a shield makes no sense.)

Easier: dump the tower shield, instantly lose its -10 ACP, strap on an ordinary heavy shield, and take Dodge for the feat. AC-1, but you can be any fighter archetype you want.

Quote:
and then use shield brace to wield a polearm while still getting 1.5x str to damage.

Ooo! That's a shiny new penny I haven't seen before.... 2016 mintage, I see.

<stoops to pick up>

That'll see some use.

Just... Be aware...

You apply the shields ACP to your attack rolls. On top of the tower shields -2 to hit penalty...
The Fighter COULD wield a polearm and a tower shield together at lvl 1, but he would be taking a -12 to hit penalty to do so >_>

Which is why the build I listed gets the Tower Shield ACP to 0 and removes the -2 penalty for attacking while holding one. Shield brace with a tower shield with no penalties attached.


You guys know you can make a Darkwood Tower Shield, right? It's kind of like Mithral, but for wood. It'll reduce that ACP by 2, one more than a normal Masterwork would.


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The secret is to be a Fighter and dedicate about... half of your resources to making the shield good. An Armor Master Fighter with Mobile Bulwark Style gets the full shield AC to touch, as well as eventually swim with, on top of any other neat things associated with Armor Master and MBS.

All in all, you have to sacrifice way too much to get it to be good, but it's a pretty fun character concept to be wielding a Nodachi with a tower shield.

Grand Lodge

Frosty Ace wrote:

The secret is to be a Fighter and dedicate about... half of your resources to making the shield good. An Armor Master Fighter with Mobile Bulwark Style gets the full shield AC to touch, as well as eventually swim with, on top of any other neat things associated with Armor Master and MBS.

All in all, you have to sacrifice way too much to get it to be good, but it's a pretty fun character concept to be wielding a Nodachi with a tower shield.

I'm counting 5 feats in total. Shield Focus, Tower Shield Specialist, Shield Brace, Mobile Bulwark Style, and Mobile Fortress. A fighter gets 21 feats (22 if human) over their lifetime. You can also just ignore the Mobile Bulwark Style chain if you don't care about adding it to your touch AC.

It's incredibly easy to pull off and nowhere near half of your resources.


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The thing with Tower Shields is that people realized that they could get their shields online for less money. Now you just don't see them anywhere.

The same kind of thing happened in Camelot.


1) No warrior ever used a slashing polearm and a shield at the same time.

2) 18 pounds is more than double what most shields have weighed.


Coquelicot Dragon wrote:

The thing with Tower Shields is that people realized that they could get their shields online for less money. Now you just don't see them anywhere.

The same kind of thing happened in Camelot.

I see what you did there.

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