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Okay can someone please clear this up for me?
I've been looking all over the book and even used some good ol' ctrl+F on the PDF, looking for the phrase "two-weapon fighting", and it ONLY appears in the Archetype section for Fighter.
Apparently, nowhere in the book does it mention the actual attack penalties or how dual-wielding actually works mechanically in PF2.0. How does this work in PF2.0? Someone please point me in the right direction!
Thanks, in advance.
There's no such thing. You get no special benefit for dual wielding. The ranger, fighter, and rogue all have level 1 class feats that work with dual wielding. So if you want to dual wield take one of those feats. Hopefully theirs more support in the advanced players guide coming out next year.
There's no such thing. You get no special benefit for dual wielding. The ranger, fighter, and rogue all have level 1 class feats that work with dual wielding. So if you want to dual wield take one of those feats. Hopefully theirs more support in the advanced players guide coming out next year.
Does that mean there's no penalty like in PF1? O_o Seems weird. I'm guessing they're sticking with the standard -5 per follow-up?
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There's no such thing. You get no special benefit for dual wielding. The ranger, fighter, and rogue all have level 1 class feats that work with dual wielding. So if you want to dual wield take one of those feats. Hopefully theirs more support in the advanced players guide coming out next year.Does that mean there's no penalty like in PF1? O_o Seems weird. I'm guessing they're sticking with the standard -5 per follow-up?
By default, two-weapon fighting does not give you extra attacks, no. The initial advantage is in mixing and matching weapon properties.
Let's take the classic example of fighting with a longsword and a shortsword on an average turn. You use your first action to move up next to the enemy, and your second action to swing into the baddie with your longsword. For your third action you could try attacking with your longsword again, but it's probably better to attack with your shortsword instead. It's less damaging than the longsword, but it's agile property means that your secondary attack is more likely to land since you're only taking a -4 penalty rather than a -5.
There's no such thing. You get no special benefit for dual wielding. The ranger, fighter, and rogue all have level 1 class feats that work with dual wielding. So if you want to dual wield take one of those feats. Hopefully theirs more support in the advanced players guide coming out next year.Does that mean there's no penalty like in PF1? O_o Seems weird. I'm guessing they're sticking with the standard -5 per follow-up?
You cannot attack with the two weapons at the same time. There is no penalty because you cannot do it, at least not without the feat from the ranger.
You can carry a light weapon in your off-hand to attack with the agile trait, or maybe even get the feat that allows for more defense.
Not sure I like that -__- I'm gonna miss being a wood-chipper. But, oh well. Themz the breaks~!
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Honestly, I like they have moved away from it, because it's seriously unrealistic, generally you use a shield or something like a sword breaker in the off hand.
I mean, this isn't supposed to be realistic imho...? It's a *fantasy* RPG. Not a life sim. But everyone has their own way to play, no judgement here naturally ^u^
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Rangers get the best TWF blender option. At low levels they can use Hunt Prey+Twinned Takedown+Strike to get 3 attacks, and every round after that against the prey you can get 4 attacks. Combine with the Flurry hunter's edge and an agile weapon and you reduce your MAPs quite a bit.
At 18th level a Ranger can get Impossible Flurry, which is three Strikes with each weapon, for a total of 6 attacks, or 7 if you're benefiting from Haste. With Hunt Prey you're doing 6 to 7 attacks all with merely a -2 penalty on your attacks.
If you just want to focus on doing damage the best offhand weapon is going to be the hatchet; shortsword is basically the same level of effectiveness, but sweep will sometimes account for a small amount of extra damage.
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I was not. Saying that sweep "will sometimes account for a small amount of extra damage" is accurate because it's a bonus that only activates if you attack two different enemies and only makes a difference if it changes the degree of success. Forceful is a much more significant weapon trait.
Speaking of which, I wonder if there's merit in forgoing an agile offhander and dual-wielding forceful weapons. Could see an Orc Ranger with two Necksplitters being pretty good. It'd be annoying to track which necksplitter you hit with for forceful damage but I think it's still the best way to get total number of attacks on a particular weapon.
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One thing to mention is things like Twin Takedown require a weapon in each hand. Most likely the same for Two Weapon Flurry and Double Slice. The main change to TWF feels like they want to dive much more into the theme and feel of it over just the mechanical difference.
The Monk is a similar example in that they are the Unarmed Strike class and each Stance changes how your Unarmed Strikes tend to work. An example being Dragon Tail Stance relies on Sweeping Kicks to mimic a tail swipe.
Personally i love the thematic flair they’ve put into both aspects. I love the fact that a TWF Ranger will feel so much different than a TWF Fighter.
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I mean, you can definately still woodchipper enemies, albeit at higher levels. Grab a Ranger, Impossible Flurry, and the Flurry Hunter tactics. Grab two sawtooth sabres.
Make six attacks at -2 each, all bur the first getting bonus damage from twin weapons.
There are also follow-up feats for Fighter and Ranger, and you can get some pretty sweet TWF attack routines going wielding two agile weapons...
Great post and information Edge93! Thanks!
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Something I didn't see mentioned here is that Double Slice has the "Press" trait. This means it can't be used until you've already done an attack this turn. This means that both attacks will be at -5 (or -4 for agile).
Double Slice doesn't have the Press trait, actually. It might have had it in the playtest, but it doesn't now.
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Yeah, Rangers are absolute DPS machines if they want to be.
Although I do appreciate that there is a fair bit of support for single-shot crossbow builds also; Rangers have arguably the highest reliable single-hit damage in the game and it requires them to use a crossbow or other Reload weapon.
Just with a relatively trivial amount of optimization, a Ranger with a heavy crossbow using Perfect Shot can do 4d12+2 (crossbow ace) + 3d8 (precision) + 3d6 (elemental) = ninety-two damage with a single shot.
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I’ve noted this before on a few other places, but I haven’t found two weapon fighting to be very fun, at least as a rogue. It takes too many actions to start dual wielding and use the feat associated with it. In addition, there is the extra cost of weapons, whether magical or with additional runes. And for rogues, there are no other dual wielding feats without multiclassing, and the best ones are unavailable. That aside, building for any other style with a rogue works far, far better and seems more enjoyable, at least so far.
I was not. Saying that sweep "will sometimes account for a small amount of extra damage" is accurate because it's a bonus that only activates if you attack two different enemies and only makes a difference if it changes the degree of success. Forceful is a much more significant weapon trait.
Speaking of which, I wonder if there's merit in forgoing an agile offhander and dual-wielding forceful weapons. Could see an Orc Ranger with two Necksplitters being pretty good. It'd be annoying to track which necksplitter you hit with for forceful damage but I think it's still the best way to get total number of attacks on a particular weapon.
Honestly Twin weapons would probably be much better than Forceful. You won't get any +2 damage per die attacks, but you'll have less attacks with no extra damage and it's simpler to remember.
Red Mantis Rangers rise up! XD
As a random aside, a Flurry Ranger with a Forceful Weapon just in general, not even using TWF, could be really good I think.
I realized hours after making that post that just one Necksplitter and not bothering with TWF is probably the better route to go and would itself be quite viable. You're right that Twin weapons will be the best choice for a non-agile TWF'er, though currently the only twin weapon in the game is only easily accessible to a Human. That will change at the end of the month with the release of the Lost Omens World Guide, naturally.
MaxAstro's build is using Crossbow Ace, which is another +2 to damage that other weapons aren't going to have access to. I'm not sure how it compares in overall DPR to a more standard build but with the right single attack actions it may be very effective (Hunter's Aim goes a long way to make this work on its own).
Would this not also work with a melee build? With up to 6 attacks?Yeah, Rangers are absolute DPS machines if they want to be.
Although I do appreciate that there is a fair bit of support for single-shot crossbow builds also; Rangers have arguably the highest reliable single-hit damage in the game and it requires them to use a crossbow or other Reload weapon.
Just with a relatively trivial amount of optimization, a Ranger with a heavy crossbow using Perfect Shot can do 4d12+2 (crossbow ace) + 3d8 (precision) + 3d6 (elemental) = ninety-two damage with a single shot.
A TWF Ranger can probably get comparable damage, but will be picking different options. Probably even more damage, to compensate for the additional action cost and the probability of damage resistance.
The Precision Hunter's Edge (that +3d8 damage) only applies once per round, for example. As does Crossbow Ace (which increases the Heavy Crossbow to d12s).
The 6-attack build is probably taking the Flurry Edge instead, and a multitude of different feats.
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Pretty disappointing actually. :(
If you wanna TWF, you be a Ranger or a Fighter (or a sad Rogue who wishes they were better).
If you wanna TWF as a Barbarian, a Champion, or anything else really... well, too bad, no support.