Drow Battle Wizard

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Most of what I wrote was intended to SPOOK the players, not kill them outright. I didn't say you shouldn't give the enchanted weapons back, for example.

I thought that the thread was about scaring the PC's, making them scared of death or whatever. I don't like killing PC's, but I do use my villains in any given AP as ruthlessly as possible barring special instructions. And I do let the dice mostly fall as they may.

However, I also give players a vague heads up about PC weaknesses. No plot spoilers.

And if you want them invested in their characters, it helps to give them chances to interact with NPC's, to befriend them or get hosed over by them.

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I am running Skull & Shackles right now. Cleric is easily the best option for the party as a whole. You will DESPERATELY need the healing power of both channeling and spellcasting! My advice to you is to change the race to aasimar (or a undine and switch out the race abilities for fast healing, amphibious (water breathing), and Swim speed 30), your deity to Besmara (there's a magic item useful to the party later made a gift to said party). Also, do whatever you have to make sure the party all has class access to Swim and Climb, if they want to survive this first book! Tell your GM to private message me. There's an alteration that must be made if the party is to survive part 3. It's very minor, but very necessary. I can also send him/her a breakdown of what is needed in the party.

Having a high Wisdom, your Cleric will likely be assigned a position where you won't need Climb much. However, do everybody a solid and tell them to take ONE rank in profession sailor if it makes sense given backstory. They will be profoundly grateful.

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Oo! A Shout spell variant where you sing something really annoying and unholy like Shatner's rendition of "Rocket Man" or some children's tv show song like Barney the Dinosaur (look it up).

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I want a 9th level divination spell called "Summon DM". The disheveled GM appears in front of the party while time stops just outside the party, and the PC can ask whatever questions he/she wants, provided it is vague enough not to run the plotline.

A 3rd level spell called "Firebawl" which summons a severely depressed fire elemental that cries uncontrollably, raining flaming tears down on the area of effect.

A 3rd level spell called "Fire Ball" in which the caster is absented from the current combat as he/she disappears. The caster is now in the Elemental Plane of Fire, in a ballroom and expected to roll perform (dance) for about 1d10 rounds while taking fire damage from the plane.

Oo! A Shout spell variant where you sing something really annoying and unholy like Shatner's rendition of "Rocket Man" or some children's tv show song like Barney the Dinosaur (look it up). This would dramatically increase the spell save DC, depending on how annoying it is. Maybe Nimoy's rendition of "The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins"....

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I would have been happy if they combined the core rulebook, the advanced player's guide, dumped the summoner, and used the unchained versions of the rogue, monk, barbarian.

I don't like Summoners because their eidolon tends to take the place of the party warrior, and it allows them to cast spells besides handle physical combat. Never screw over a PC role.

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Basically, competing with 5e in their own bailiwick is only going to end up in disaster for Paizo. Essentially they are trying to be more 5e and woke than 5e.

Remember why people switched over to PF in the first place? 4e sucked. Why do people play PF over 5e now? Easy, you get to better define your character and it's got more crunch. But PF2 takes away those things, and tries to be exactly like 5e.

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DUDES!!!!! He's Elan from Order of the Stick!!!!!

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I'll just leave this magic item I created here....

Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th; Slot shoulders; Price 1,000 gp; Weight —

Long believed to have been gnome in origin, this clear pair of inflatable tubes features little brightly colored stylized fish and dolphins on it, worn on the upper arms.

The water wings grants their wearer a +5 competence bonus on Swim checks, and allows her to take 10 on such checks even if distracted or endangered. However, when the wearer is underwater, the +5 bonus is replaced with a -5 penalty to Swim checks, and the wearer has positive buoyancy. Thus the wearer can swim even in rough seas without much effort.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS Craft Wondrous Item, touch of the sea; Cost 500gp.

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I will leave, permanently once PF2 hits the shelves. I haven't read much about it that I like, and there wouldn't be any products left I would want to buy.

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To be frank, the writing for various Pathfinder products has been in decline for some time now. And, I really don't like what's been happening in Pathfinder 2e, although I have been keeping somewhat up to date on it.

I wonder if 2e is gonna be successful, or will it turn out to be another D&D 4e, so bad that they have to either come out with a new edition or go back to the old one, a la Vampire?

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Melkiador wrote:

@Piccolo: I'm not sure what you're wanting out of this thread. The OP asked if bards are worth playing in Pathfinder. People have posted quite a few answers showing that they are in fact good, and quite a lot of fun to play.

You seem to want this thread to be about Rogues being awesome and how they get no respect, amongst several other gripes. Those things are not the subject of this thread. The OP never defined "good" or "fun" as performing every task a more specialized class, or one of the classes in a "core four" party, better than those classes.

Nope. I am fine with Bards as they are, and with Rogues as they are. What annoys me is the concept that a Bard can somehow be superior to a Rogue in their own niche. They can't be, and on top of that I dislike all the Rogue hate I encounter on this website. I happen to like the class, as I do all the others.

Bards are a great 5th man, but they can't really top any other class in what they do. They're a generalist, and I am fine with that.

As for the idea that the Rogue was underpowered, even the core rulebook version was fine with me. In many games, I have found them to be quite sufficient.

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I wholly disagree. New players will make lots of mistakes when in combat and in character design. In the lower levels, PC's are really fragile, so plugging up those holes in their defenses helps a lot.

So, what I do as GM is make the PC according to their wishes in every area except in character traits and feats. Then, I have a chat with the player, and point out the weaknesses that are dangerous to the PC's continued survival.

For example, lots of times Rogues have crappy Will saves. Since most players absolutely hate losing control of their characters, I usually poke new players into taking Iron Will and Indomitable Faith for their Rogues. Or taking Toughness for a Sorcerer.

Doing so has the consequence of keeping the PC alive long enough for the player to learn what they want to do with it, and even keeps them more interested in the game itself. Coincidentally, this also doesn't even remotely overwhelm the players with choices. The philosophy I follow when helping a player make a character is, ask them what they want, then create that using wise choices. Where there are multiple options, like picking a race, I show the player what are usually picked by veterans.

For example, when a player picks out a Rogue, I then get them to assign attributes, pointing out why Dexterity and Intelligence seem to be picked by most, and Strength is normally a dump stat. Ultimately the choice is with the player. Then I show them races that work well with Rogues, like humans, tieflings, halflings, goblins. They pick what they want.

Oh, and all of the class and skill choices are NOT done in a vacuum as so many online prefer. Instead, they are picked with an eye not to compete with the rest of the PC's, and to fill in the gaps that haven't been filled in a balanced party (I as GM like to run APs, and note they normally have a variety of challenges so balance is needed).

Been doing this sort of thing for upwards of 20 years now. Normally when I get a group together, it lasts for several years at least, unlike the ones most people seem to have that last a few months.

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Under the description of every magic item, there is a caster level listed. I thought that this was the minimum level needed to create the item, therefore any PC's that want to recreate the item for themselves have to be of that level or greater. However, another person I am in a thread with disagrees. He says you just have to make a skill check to pull it off. There is a FAQ which addresses this, but it seems to have exceptions.

" Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?

Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.

However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.

For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement."

Who is right?

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gtot some details wrong, sorry. Here's the corrected stats:

Travel Cloak- 5 cold resistance, sheds precipitation to the knees, gray-green color, wandermeal for one each day (you could make it a racial version if it was inherited by a PC), turns into a 1 man tent once per day, a 1 pint flask in a hidden extradimensional pocket that provides up to 2 gallons of fluid each day either sugared hot tea or cool spring water. Weighs 1 pound, costs 1200gp, Craft Wondrous Item, CL 5, endure elements, create food and water, enlarge.

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Does anybody who has run this campaign have tips on what classes would work really well in Reign of Winter as a group?

So far, I am thinking that the following work well, because they offer cold resistance or cold environment bonuses:
Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager archetype), rage powers (APG)
Paladin (Empyreal Knight archetype UC, but requires you to give up a lot)
Ranger (Infiltrator archetype Humanoid giant, outsider)
3 levels of Horizon Walker prestige class APG, good for Fighters/Rangers/Paladins etc.
Sorcerer: Boreal, Starsoul, Undead, Elemental (water), and Draconic (silver, white)
Wizard: Abjuration specialist
Druid (Arctic archetype)
Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor (water domain)
Witch (Winter Witch archetype, not prestige class)
Oracle Winter mystery, (black blooded archetype Inner Sea Magic)

I also noticed that the following races grant cold resistance:
Aasimar, Elf (customized), Tiefling, Suli, Undine, Kobold (customized)

And based on my reading of the AP, I noticed that the following skills and feats should be needed, any recommendations?
Spell Penetration (to combat spell resistance), Iron Will (lots of charms from what I've read), Linguistics, fire spells and cold resistance are your friends. Lots of traps in the AP, so Perception and Disable Device is encouraged, as is a Rogue’s trapfinding ability.

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Tcho Tcho wrote:

Has anybody had a good witch in a party before, was it any good, and what was her role in the party?

Remember, there are THREE types of witches:

A Good Witch

A Bad Witch

And a Sandwich.


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I used the Sanity system for Carrion Crown's Wake of the Watcher. The game effect was that players immediately bought Iron Will and spent gold on upping their Cloaks of Resistance. I suspect that your players will do the same thing to avoid insanity/corruption.

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Actually, almost all of the races in most of my games are non-core. Personally I find humans boring. The only core races I've seen in my games are human and elf. Most are races like orcs, aasimar, Wood Elf (custom elf suited to archery), hobgoblin, etc.

This concept that races must be limited to core rulebook races I think sucks.

That said, I don't allow certain races and classes in my games since they kinda ruin the mileu. They're rare, though, so most players don't want them much anyway, and I make them clear at the outset.

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It looks like a standard Cleric would be a good idea for this AP, since they excel at healing and removing various conditions. And, there are Haunts to deal with, and channeling is perfect for dealing with them.

Also, I might consider a Rogue for this one. All those skills, plus Disable Device, are REALLY handy for the first adventure, In Search of Sanity. Been reading through the module.

Also, I would definitely recommend all the PC's, even those with good Will saves, to take Iron Will. Horror and sanity tend to depend on Will saves in Pathfinder.

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Stop building characters to fulfill a string of feats. Instead, build characters in response to what happens in the game. Your PC will live longer and you'll have more fun. For example, if your GM likes to run in the horror genre, you will probably need Iron Will instead of that feat chain you've been eyeing.

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Well, the best uses I have ever seen for a familiar is as a scout or informant. However the current Wizard in my group is using his as a assistant crafter of magic items, using a Valet archetype from the Animal Archive and giving it a Ring of Sustenance so it has more time to craft items with the Wizard.

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Diminuendo wrote:

Grow up and do what's best for your game. Rip the band-aid off quickly.

You're options are ask her to leave, or run for 7 people when she can be bothered turning up.

It has nothing to do with growing up.

I don't want to turn her away because I don't like dispensing misery. She obviously enjoys the game. Me, I have this thing called a conscience, ever hear of it?

Sigh. I have decided that the new player will take control of the orc Fighter/tank. Meanwhile, the absentee player will either take control of an NPC, or quit. Gonna talk about this at the next game meeting, at which the absentee player is not going to be coming.

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Majuba wrote:

{Sympathy for the OP}

It sounds like you know what you want to do. Perhaps you can leave an in, like the NPC playing above, or "next in line if someone leaves" status.

Sigh. I may have decided on what is best, but I don't want to do it. I don't like turning away a gamer. I have sent a message on FB to ask for a private sit down so we can hash this out.

One of the reasons why I want my players to show up regularly is that I want this group to LAST, meaning more than just a single campaign. Carrion Crown saw the loss of Tracy (due to her own personal difficulties) and the gain of Alan.

Now Giantslayer has the original CC crew minus Tracy, plus a married couple. Then the absentee joined, and finally the new player. The absentee has proven herself to BE an absentee, and that sucks because we like her.

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It's a hard thing to do, telling a player who wants to play that she can't. Even if the reason why is that she frequently doesn't have the time.

Dammit. I hate turning people away.

Should I continue as I have been, having the new player pinch hit for the absent gamers, and hope that the absentee will quit on her own? Or do I cut the matter short as you suggest?

I dunno yet.

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I found this in Magic of Faerun, an old 3.5 Forgotten Realms supplement.
I altered it somewhat.

Travel Cloak- 5 cold resistance, sheds precipitation to the knees, gray-green color, wandermeal for one each day (you could make it a racial version if it was inherited by a PC), turns into a 1 man tent once per day, a 1 pint flask in a hidden extradimensional pocket that provides up to 2 gallons of fluid each day either sugared hot tea or cool spring water. Weighs 1 pound, costs 1200gp, Craft Wondrous Item, CL 5, Endure Elements, Create Food and Water, Enlarge.

All they need to get more than that is a bunch of soap, a lantern, flint and steel, a masterwork backpack, and a bedroll to camp for however long. A cold weather outfit would be appropriate for Arctic conditions.

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I'm curious, how fast does a Dwarven Barbarian move in Medium armor? 20 or 30ft?

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I'd honestly recommend a Elf Evoker with the Admixture school, which allows you to change the element damage from one kind to another. This means you can really nail Frost and Fire giants to the proverbial wall. Do not have Enchantment as an opposition school; giants have crappy Will saves.

Second, since giants can hit really hard, try to max out your AC with item creation feats (Wondrous Item, Arms & Armor), and upping your hp. The former of course also helps out the party. You can maximize your time by grabbing a Ring of Sustenance, which allows you to sleep for only 2 hours, giving lots of extra time for crafting.

Quick tip: Have everyone take Stealth Synergy at 3rd level. The reason why will become painfully obvious in The Hill Giant's Pledge (2nd adventure) and also later on.

Ask the player of the Rogue to contact me personally. I have a Rogue build that maximizes sneak attack damage.

What races are the other PC's? I recommend Orc for the Fighter, Aasimar for the Cleric, and Goblin for the Rogue. If you take an Elf with darkvision, all of the PC's will be able to see in the dark, which means you will likely get a bonus from the DM on Stealth rolls since nobody is carrying a source of light.

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That might be true, but lots of people don't like using them when running a campaign. I know *I* don't. In fact, I can't, since I don't have access to my computer in my apt building's community room.

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I propose looking at this from a different perspective.

Most of the AP's also require you to have additional books, did you guys not recall that you need, for example, Monster Codex and NPC Codex just to run Giantslayer (not to mention the other Bestiaries)?

On that note, I recommend Carrion Crown. All you need to run it is the AP itself and Bestiary 1 and 2. Remember, this guy is coming from Runelords, thus he likely has Bestiary 1 and not much else.

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Honestly, I've always wanted to run a campaign where players actually reach 20th level and then have a big beat down against the most potent of red dragons.

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Sorry, but that doesn't cut the proverbial mustard. What happens when someone takes ability damage or ability drain?

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Reign of Winter classes
Sorcerer: Boreal, Starsoul, Undead, Elemental (water), and Draconic (silver, white)
Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager archetype)
Druid (Arctic archetype)
Cleric (water domain)
Ranger (Infiltrator archetype Humanoid giant, outsider)
Witch (Winter Witch archetype)
Oracle (black blooded archetype)
Horizon Walker prestige class

Reign of Winter Races
Aasimar, Elf (customized), Tiefling, Suli, Undine

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I too am considering running Witchwar Legacy after Reign of Winter, and would like to know what changes would need to be made...

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Sigh. I don't give a rat's patootie. Any race is just fine by me, even orcs and goblins. (I sorta don't like drow though, knowing the tropes and original Good Folk legends.) Hell, I give Orc PC's Endurance feat and an extra 2 traits just to balance them out with the other races. Goblins I grant an extra 2 traits.

Sorry Roger. I totally disagree with you. I like keeping player's options open for the most part, although I do ban certain classes depending on the campaign genre. Races are basically chosen both for flavor's sake and for a class favored attributes, like a standard aasimar being great for a Cleric PC.

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Shroud wrote:

In other news......Aasimars? Really? They are unbalanced and cheesy as hell. Usually played by people interested in bonuses without penalties instead of roleplaying opportunities. I usually place them in a category of "Ultra-Rare Choices" for my players, along with Tieflings and any other non-core race. I allow a single choice from that pool per campaign....and they can decide among themselves who gets to select it for that campaign. Then again, I am always concerned with preserving the atmosphere of the world region the game is set in. Which means you're not going to find Irrisen witches in Katapesh or Mwangi Shamans in Tien except in the rarest and strangest of circumstances.

You're a lot more restrictive than I am as a DM. I allow just about everything, as I want my players to be happy with their PC. After all, they're going to be playing it for a long time.

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Guys, I wanted suggestions as to AP's, not old 3.5 dungeon adventures. So far, the only suggestion I can see is Reign of Winter and Skull & Shackles. Any other suggestions?

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One of the things I like doing is having really tough combats, lethal traps, puzzles etc to force my players to really think, to come up with solutions that get them out of a jam. And, I'm interested in buying a new adventure path.

I've got Rise of the Runelords and Carrion Crown already. I even bought Carrion Hill just to tack onto Carrion Crown.

Can you guys suggest a AP that's seriously nasty? One that's responsible for a lot of character deaths. Anything but Runelords or CC. I don't want any Mythic rules either, so no Wrath of the Righteous.

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If you are interested in a Small race, my advice to you is to take a Goblin. They get -2 Strength and Charisma, but +4 to Dexterity. Move speed is 30, just like Medium sized PC's. You even get a +4 to Ride and Stealth (and another +4 to Stealth because of your size) as well as darkvision (60ft).

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Interesting. In the first time I tried running Carrion Crown, the single cause of PC death was undependable players. PC group kept having people leave and new ones joining. But overall, the group didn't have an character deaths because of the game material, and we had finished book 5 of the 6 book adventure series.

Wonder why? Anyway, I intend to be far harsher this time around, and try to put the PC group through the wringer.

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I *am* the GM.

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Spoil away, actually. I happen to be the DM.

However, don't rag on the Rogue. They aren't a half bad class, imho, and I'm tired of hearing the bad press on this message board.

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Firebawl scroll: Summons a depressed fire elemental which rains down fire over everything in a 20ft radius (approximately the same as a Fireball spell, but targeted on the caster). Everybody in the radius can make a reflex save for half damage.

Fire Ball scroll: Teleports targets within a 20 ft radius to the Fire elemental plane, where they must succeed on Perform (dance) checks or take full Fireball damage. If they succeed they take half damage. No traditional Reflex save.

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actually I don't have all that many objections to the writing. I only have a handful, and have a nuanced opinion of the series so far. I am running it again because I bought the whole series, and want to get my money's worth. So far the largest error is the fact that the adventure expects one to loot Caromarc's mansion, and that is tied in with the fact that there's not much permanent magic items in the adventure, just charged items (plus I worry that there's not enough treasure as a whole in the adventure).

Thanks for the tip about this Ice Titan guy!

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