Hello,
I just bought this AP, and I'm curious as to what would be a good party balance. As an analogy, I know that Carrion Crown needs a Cleric of Pharasma and a Paladin. Meanwhile, Giantslayer would do well with a Fighter (archer) and a Cavalier or mounted Paladin.
So, what classes work well with this AP? I know Witches feature heavily in the storyline, but they seem to be primarily villains. Since it's a cold themed AP, I figure a Boreal Sorcerer (for the cold resistance) that takes lots of fire spells would work great.
What are your recommendations?
Any that takes endure elements. Not the most popular choice but I had a character in my game that took it at first level (human) and he loved that he took it. I have one more that is looking forward to 3rd level to possibly take it.
??? Endure elements is a spell, not a feat.
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I am GM'ing this AP at the moment and I think the typical requirements (fighter, rogue, heals) are all that's really needed. Given the nature of the main plot, I thought it might be difficult for most players to RP a Paladin so I advised my group against taking it but I didn't forbid it by any means.
As RelicBlackOUT pointed out, endure elements is a life saver, I have an arcanist in my group who's made great use of it.
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Gunslinger. It pays off in Book 5.
There are special benefits that a witch would get out of this AP. I encouraged one of my players to bring one and I'm glad I did. Other than that, a ranger has been particularly useful.
And gunslingers will get cool toys in book five.
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Both druids and witches can work very well, both thematically and mechanically. Rangers are a pretty good fit, too; along with paladins, surprisingly (there are very few compromises, if any, needed for a staunchly good character in this AP, before the very end; less than Wrath of the Righteous, actually).
Most of the rest of the classes can work with minimal effort, depending on the archetype choice. As mentioned, gunslingers get some goodies in the fifth book; however, it's probably best to just dip a couple levels at that point, rather than slogging through the first four books with nothing much.
IMO, monks and rogues/ninjas are possibly the two worst fitting classes (unlike Jade Regent).
??? Endure elements is a spell, not a feat.
complete brain fart. yes it is a spell
IMO, monks and rogues/ninjas are possibly the two worst fitting classes (unlike Jade Regent).
What about all the traps I've been reading about in the first adventure book? A Rogue would be all over that.
Given that a lot of the monsters are vulnerable to fire, one would think a Sorcerer with the Burning Hands spell would clean up...
Yeah, Rangers, Druids would work well in the wilderness settings of the AP, but right now it seems that all of the Witches in the AP are evil. Dunno about this idea of having a Witch PC.
Since I never allow Gunslingers in the first place, it's not an issue.
Also, why did the AP not take into account the game effects of skis? They allow for normal movement over snow, unlike snowshoes that only improve it.
??? Endure elements is a spell, not a feat.complete brain fart. yes it is a spell
Invulnerable ragers can essentially get it as a class ability. Granted, it is either for warm or cold weather... but you can probably hazard a guess which one the party will encounter a lot more often in this AP.
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Also, why did the AP not take into account the game effects of skis? They allow for normal movement over snow, unlike snowshoes that only improve it.
IMO, monks and rogues/ninjas are possibly the two worst fitting classes (unlike Jade Regent).
Golarion is going to be the most epic f$&~ing ski resort ever
IMO, monks and rogues/ninjas are possibly the two worst fitting classes (unlike Jade Regent).What about all the traps I've been reading about in the first adventure book? A Rogue would be all over that.
Given that a lot of the monsters are vulnerable to fire, one would think a Sorcerer with the Burning Hands spell would clean up...
Yeah, Rangers, Druids would work well in the wilderness settings of the AP, but right now it seems that all of the Witches in the AP are evil. Dunno about this idea of having a Witch PC.
Since I never allow Gunslingers in the first place, it's not an issue.
Also, why did the AP not take into account the game effects of skis? They allow for normal movement over snow, unlike snowshoes that only improve it.
By the time the PCs are in an area where skis are actually available, they're not slogging through snow anymore. ;)
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It's already hard enough to imagine melee combat in snow shoes... I can't even begin to justify how that would work in ski's...
PC - "I attack the guy to my left"
GM - "That will take you a round to re position your ski's. Oh, and you dropped your poles to wield your weapon and shield, make a reflex save to see if you fall on your ass...."
The witches in the AP are evil. My witch player is evil as well--she's a member of the Jadwiga Ylizeveta who's hoping to take Elvanna down and grab some power for herself.
What about all the traps I've been reading about in the first adventure book? A Rogue would be all over that.
IMO, monks and rogues/ninjas are possibly the two worst fitting classes (unlike Jade Regent).
The Trapfinding class feature (other than being weak in and of itself in Pathfinder) is hardly needed. Anyone with high Disable Device and/or Perception can deal with the majority of the traps.
Thematically, other than the brief interlude in Whitethrone, there just isn't much for a typical rogue to do other than deal with traps and do some Sneak Attacks.
How did your player know this at time of creation? Did you tell her about Elvanna at that time?
All the jadwiga know that Dear Grandmother returns every 100 years to install a new daughter on the throne...and it's clear that she's late. Elvanna is also instituting her own guard that opposes Grandmother's. When you add in that the jadwiga all play against each other, that seems like enough to me.
This character is also the second that the player is using. He decided his cleric of Milani just couldn't justify helping Baba Yaga and stayed in Irrisen to help the Heralds of the Summer's Return and we worked together to find someone in Irrisen whose goals would align with the party's.
So, you are saying that Reign of Winter should have a trap monkey? Okay. If somebody takes a Ranger, I will recommend that the PC takes Disable Device as well through traits.
Also, given how difficult it is to move throughout this AP, I will recommend mithril armor, even though it's expensive.
Me and two other people went through the whole thing with these three characters:
LN Suli Magus (Elemental Knight Archtype)-So far one of my favorite characters to play to date!
Witch/Gunslinger (A Witch with gunslinger feats and a Gun for a familiar!)
(She died about half-way through and was Reincarnated into a male Bard/ Gunslinger- basically the player wanted to re-invent his character after playing for a while)
Catfolk Rogue (Longbow/Claw specialist.)- My wife's character!
Now my GM was nice to us because there were only 3 of us, and simplified or shortened a few of the encounters (none of the important ones). However I definitely recommend an Arcane caster (lots of spellbooks and scrolls) of many types and there are a LOT of witch magical items, most of which can only be used by witches. These can be sold for profit later.
Endure Elements/Cold resistance is important, but that can be achieved by spells or magical items (plenty of them in the game if I remember).
Make sure your PCs are ready for weird fey (cold iron is your friend!)and confusing puzzles, as they play an important part in the game and Baba Yaga's Hut. (A fey blooded sorcerer would definitely be interesting I think!)
We lacked a dedicated healer (Witch/Bard could heal if they needed to do so), so we bought several potions and wands of CLW and CMW and the rogue and I had Use Magic Device skill.
I found that spells like shield, fire shield, invisibility, fly/overland flight,and good old magic missile helped a lot. Detect magic is always useful.
Spells like burning Hands and fireball were useful but not as often as I would have liked. Wall of fire came into play more often and was much more useful. The black tentacles spell saved our @$$ at least once.
In the end I won't say a specific one PC class is better or not suited for the game, but I think if the players are intelligent about their race/class selections (No Desert or Pirate archetypes!)they can make sure their characters are both useful and fun to play. And YES, any character familiar with firearms will definitely enjoy the end of the AP!
=)
I suggest your PCs have an idea how they want their characters to develop as time passes, but keep in mind there are a lot of unique times for choices and powerful item finds in the game that can cause you to possibility change your character's development course: There are several powerful/unique melee items found later in the game, the chance to gain a Dragon as a unique follower/mount, and a good sized ball of adamantine from a dragon's lair that just begs for being made into powerful weapons or armor in the game! This AP, in the end, is what the PCs make of it!
So, you are saying that Reign of Winter should have a trap monkey?
Every AP will have a variety of traps that need to be dealt with, so someone in the party should be able to do so.
Whether that "someone" is an alchemist, bard, inquisitor, investigator, ranger, rogue, or another class that invested skill ranks in Disable Device and Perception (such as a trip-specialist fighter; that 13 Int for Combat Expertise/Improved Trip gives 3 skill ranks per level to play with and no real "needs" when it comes to skills, other than maybe Acrobatics for the combat utility) doesn't usually matter. The only exception is if there is the expectation of lots of traps, and traps using magic (even then, that's more of a resource management issue for being able to use Disable Device, rather than needing to invest in erase and dispel magic scrolls/wands/staffs).
I don't think a single PC in my party had disable device.
They blundered into pretty much every magic trap and just kept going.
(Poor Vasilisa's doll....)
Huh. If you don't allow firearms you'll need to think about how you're handling Book 5.
Out of curiousity, do you normally do this much handholding for your players?
That first magic trap
I am also looking for a (new) class to play at 3rd level.
Short Version: What would be a good class to play in this AP with a Tiny, High Cha, High Dex, Low Str character?
GM is letting me change classes because my intended build towards Arcane Trickster just isn't gonna work.
GM very graciously let me play a tiny fey. I've always wanted to build an AT with one. But GM and I really don't see eye to eye on Rogues. He believes the original rogues are OP as written. (???!!!) Unchained is verbotten. And he insists on using the DnD Sneak Attack immunity rules.
So with tiny weapons that do no damage, and the difficulty flanking while tiny added in (PS in 20 combats with a +17 to initiative, I have *never* caught an enemy flatfooted. They always surprise US)... I just can't make an AT mechanically viable with the additional constraints. -cries-
On to my question... what would be a good high Cha, high Dex, low Str, tiny weapon Class to play in this AP?
I know the first idea is Sorcerer. But I've played several blasty elemental sorcerers in the last few years. Can't bring myself to play another one.
Seems like Fey Blooded might be a natural. But are there a lot of things in this AP that will be immune to enchantment? Are there feats or archetypes that make charming further types of critters possible?
I was also playing with the idea of a transmutation specialist, (lots of reduce/enlarge), but I'm not as familiar with feats etc to make that work really well.
Bard maybe? But entirely spell and buff focused.
So if you kind folks have any suggestions for classes, with my racial configuration, that would work really well in this AP, I'd really appreciate it.
What about Mesmerist?
Don't know much about Mesmerists, will research.
Does Reign of Winter have more than the usual amount of undead, constructs, and other immune to mind affecting?
There's enough, more undead then construct, Mesmerist has ways around it, it's an exceptional class, one of my favorite.
I don't think a single PC in my party had disable device.
They blundered into pretty much every magic trap and just kept going.
(Poor Vasilisa's doll....)
Huh. If you don't allow firearms you'll need to think about how you're handling Book 5.
Out of curiousity, do you normally do this much handholding for your players?
Basically, I don't allow firearms for PC's, out of a concern for the mileu. Also, all firearms use touch AC, and I think that's overpowered.
as for "handholding", two of my players are total newbies. Their only experience is with Carrion Crown and one character class. This is why I make recommendations.
That said, I do try to be relatively strict about being fair, especially where distribution of wealth and the treatment of other PC's, plus I don't tolerate out of character knowledge use.
??? Endure elements is a spell, not a feat.complete brain fart. yes it is a spell
That said, some races (including some Core races) get optional elemental endurance as a racial trait (in some cases primary, and in some cases alternate) or even elemental Resistance, although in some cases the alternate racial trait tradeoffs are painful.
So with tiny weapons that do no damage, and the difficulty flanking while tiny added in (PS in 20 combats with a +17 to initiative, I have *never* caught an enemy flatfooted. They always surprise US)... I just can't make an AT mechanically viable with the additional constraints. -cries-
On to my question... what would be a good high Cha, high Dex, low Str, tiny weapon Class to play in this AP?
Swashbuckler. You see, after several levels, the Swashbuckler gets a damage bonus equal to his or her level... and other bonuses in addition. Oh, and your GM is being unreasonable. Just saying.
That said, some races (including some Core races) get optional elemental endurance as a racial trait (in some cases primary, and in some cases alternate) or even elemental Resistance, although in some cases the alternate racial trait tradeoffs are painful.
So far, I know that the Boreal, Undead, Elemental (water), and Draconic (silver, white) bloodlines grant cold resistance.
Are there any other Sorcerer bloodlines that grant cold resistance?
What other classes get cold resistance?
Now, I know that Aasimar get cold resistance, as do racially adapted Elves. What other races get cold resistance?
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Reign of Winter classes
Sorcerer: Boreal, Starsoul, Undead, Elemental (water), and Draconic (silver, white)
Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager archetype)
Druid (Arctic archetype)
Cleric (water domain)
Ranger (Infiltrator archetype Humanoid giant, outsider)
Witch (Winter Witch archetype)
Oracle (black blooded archetype)
Horizon Walker prestige class
Reign of Winter Races
Aasimar, Elf (customized), Tiefling, Suli, Undine
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One of my players has been playing a Winter Oracle and has been instrumental in keeping everyone alive and kicking through cure spells, restorations, resist energy, and endure elements. He also gets a lot of thematic discoveries and spells, so he has been a good fit for the winter and snow in the campaign (Winter Oracles also gets cold resistance. He sleeps in snow banks whenever he gets the chance :-P).
Rangers are also good choices, but you should communicate with your players what favored enemy choices would be good ideas, as the type of creatures they'll be facing will change drastically between books (for example, having a 2 book dry spell where only one "human" is encountered, and fighting her is entirely optional). Fey is a good choice as they will be encountered nearly every book.
And in all honesty, looking at the Reign of Winter Player's Guide is a worthwhile endevour, as it covers a lot of these kinds of things. Not all, and not from the perspective the boards have, but it's certainly a good springboard.
Reign of Winter Classes
Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager archetype), rage powers (APG)
Sorcerer: Boreal, Starsoul, Undead, Elemental (water), and Draconic (silver, white)
Druid (Arctic archetype)
Cleric (water domain)
Ranger (Infiltrator archetype Humanoid giant, outsider)
Horizon Walker prestige class, good for Fighters.
Witch (Winter Witch archetype, not prestige class)
Oracle Winter mystery, (black blooded archetype Inner Sea Magic)
Reign of Winter Races
Aasimar, Elf (customized), Tiefling, Suli, Undine
Basically, I don't allow firearms for PC's, out of a concern for the mileu. Also, all firearms use touch AC, and I think that's overpowered.
I am no expert, but as I understand it Firearms only get touch AC out to first range increment (basically at Point Blank?), after that it is considered a normal AC attack. Also they only get touch AC if they fire a single shot. Multiple shots (if possible) in one round cause the shots to be considered normal attacks.
Compare a blackpowder pistol to a Ray of Frost spell and which really comes out as a better attack? Ray of Frost never runs out of uses, is always a ranged touch attack. Does extra damage to fire based creatures, and can still be used with feats like Weapon Focus (ray), Improved Critical (ray), and Point Blank Shot. A smart caster can use it to put out torches and even attempt ranged disarms. In a pinch, it can even cool your drink for you. (Who needs ice when you can have a "frosty mug" any time you need it!)
Heck there is a 1 in 20 chance Blackpowder weapons can "jam" or "backfire" too. Their main claim to fame is their critical multipliers. They sound OP, but you quickly realize only a Gunslinger (or Pirate) really can get much use out of one past the first shot each combat.
You want to see OP? Look at the Technology Guide. (Laser guns, disrupter cannons, rail weapons, and nano guns oh my!)
Reign of Winter Classes
Cleric (water domain)
Actually Druids and Inquisitors can take the Water domain as well.
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Also they only get touch AC if they fire a single shot. Multiple shots (if possible) in one round cause the shots to be considered normal attacks.
I can't find anything in the rules that supports this, and given that my players are about to try to gain entry to the monastery grounds it could be quite important, so could you give me a reference please?
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Assuming an 18 Dex human gunslinger with a pistol hits level 6 she'll be hitting, and hit she will thanks to touch AC, enemies for 1d8+4+PBS. If she takes the right feats, 1d8+8+PBS twice or thrice. This is without any magic equipment or spells whatsoever. Say our gunslinger's investigator friend buffs her with cat's grace, she purchases or enchants her weapon, and routinely fights with the gnomish archer bard Mischievo we could be looking at +16/+16/+11 1d8+12.
And Mischievo's thinking about taking haste next level.
Sounds like it's pretty overpowered to me. I always thought touch AC was for spellcasters, and I never minded it since most don't want to get that close. However, this gunslinger class is a bit much.
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It's the Dexterity to damage and the specific exception that Deadly Aim can be used with guns that really turn the clumsy misfire sticks into worthwhile weapons. Fortunately, unless you are the player, finding guns in northern-northeastern Avistan/northwestern Casmaron is just about impossible so controlling the escalation of power is easier.
That said, some races (including some Core races) get optional elemental endurance as a racial trait (in some cases primary, and in some cases alternate) or even elemental Resistance, although in some cases the alternate racial trait tradeoffs are painful.
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Now, I know that Aasimar get cold resistance, as do racially adapted Elves. What other races get cold resistance?
Sorry, missed this the first time through.
Aasimars have Cold Resistance 5 (also others) out of the box.
Dwarves don't get anything special against the cold (technically, Surface Survivalist counts, but trading out Darkvision is such a bad trade it doesn't count), but Dwarves don't needd anything special against the cold -- they're Dwarves.
Elves can get outright Cold Resistance 5 by trading out Elven Immunities, although trading out Elven Immunities really hurts.
Gnomes don't get anything special for the cold, but if you want to build a Burninator, the Pyromaniac alternate racial trait (replaces Gnome Magic and Illusion Resistance) might be for you.
Goblins don't get anything special for the cold, but if you want to build a Burninator who also happens to be an Alchemist, choose the Fire Bomber archetype. If you are willing to burn 2 feats on Fire Tamer and then Flame Heart, this gets even better, although the feat cost is steep,
Half-Elves that have Cold-Honed (replaces Elven Immunities) get bonuses for dealing with arctic conditions, although trading out Elven immunities hurts.
Half-Orcs don't get anything specifically good for the cold (Unflinching Valor is listed as being from cold regions, but doesn't actually do antying especially beneficial in cold conditions). But it would be a reasonable house rule that a Human-Raised Half-Orc, which traces out Orc Ferocity and Weapon Familiarity for the Human Skilled trait could then replace this with Heart of the Snows (see Human, below).
Halflings (whatever you do, be sure you get the Fleet of Foot, or Outrider if mounted) don't get anything specifically good for the cold.
Humans that have Heart of the Snows (replaces Skilled) gain useful bonuses in cold conditions and treat cold climates as one category less secure, even though they do not gain any "Cold Resistance" value. You can even trade in the Bonus Feat for another "Heart of the..." alternate racial trait. Heart of the Snows gets an Orange rating for normal use in the Cartmanbeck/Broken Zenith Races of Pathfinder Optimization Guide(*), but in Reign of Winter I'd say it bumps up to Green.
(*)Not yet updated for Inner Sea Races content, which came out very recently.
Ifrits don't have anything special against the cold, but they can make good Burninators.
Kobolds that have white scales (Dragon-Scaled replaces the Armor racial trait) have Cold Resistance 5 (unfortunately, if you want to be a Charisma-based spellcaster, Burninator or otherwise, you need to trade out Armor for Dragon Affinity).
Suli have Cold Resistance 5 (also others) out of the box. In addition, despite the Intelligence penalty, they can make decent Magi when using the Elemental Knight archetype, and as far as I can tell from reading the archetype text instead of paying attention to the (apparently erroneous) archetype table on d20pfsrd.com, you can stack this archetype with Eldritch Scion, thus bypassing the Intelligence penalty and making use of the Charisma bonus, while the Elemental Knight abilities seem like they actually boost Eldritch Scion to be not too shabby rather than terrible, and Eldritch Scion's spontaneous spellcasting makes up for Eldritch Knight trading out Spell Recall (which the actual text of Eldritch Scion for some bizarre reason doesn't trade out even though the aforementioned table says it does).
Tieflings have Cold Resistance 5 (also others) out of the box. Tiefling Sorcerers who keep the Fiendish Sorcery and have the Infernal or Abyssal Bloodlines AND have the Demon-Spawn, Div-Spawn, Kyton-Spawn, or Rakshasa-Spawn heritage are powerful (for Burnination or otherwise).
Undines have Cold Resistance 5 out of the box.
Looks like I got all of the cold resistance races, except for Kobolds. However, that race is so wildly underpowered for a PC race that I doubt any of my players will like the idea. I showed one of them, and he hated it.
It looks like there's a lot more options for getting cold resistance with classes, compared to races. Good thing there's lots of variants for Aasimar and Tieflings.
Here's the revised list:
Reign of Winter classes
Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager archetype), rage powers (APG)
Sorcerer: Boreal, Starsoul, Undead, Elemental (water), and Draconic (silver, white)
Druid (Arctic archetype)
Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor (water domain)
Ranger (Infiltrator archetype Humanoid giant, outsider)
Horizon Walker prestige class, good for Fighters.
Witch (Winter Witch archetype, not prestige class)
Oracle Winter mystery, (black blooded archetype Inner Sea Magic)
Reign of Winter Races
Aasimar, Elf (customized), Tiefling, Suli, Undine, Kobold
Spell Penetration and cold resistance are your friends. Lots of traps in the AP, so somebody needs to take Disable Device and Perception.
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We wore coats.
You kids, get off my lawn! :)
Geez guys, you seem like a bunch of old men....
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Witch (Winter Witch archetype, not prestige class)
Oracle Winter mystery, (black blooded archetype Inner Sea Magic)
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If you are going to go Winter Witch archetype, you might as well go Winter Witch prestige class -- what you don't get if you DON'T do this is harder to replace than the loss of progression of your Cold Hex defensive ability from your archetype and 1 level of delay in your spellcasting progression (remember that you get full Hex progression, except that you get locked into choosing 3 specific Major Hexes before you can choose freely again).
With respect to the Oracle Mystery, the Child of Winter Revelation of the Winter Mystery is good for defense, and Ice Armor is better than average, and Snow Sight is good as well, but the rest of the Mystery might not be as helpful as you think, because the abilities and bonus spells aren't going to give you much offense (the exception being that Endure Elements is at least good to cast on the rest of your party, but it's on your spell list anyway, so again not so helpful). My thoughts are: Burninate! (And yes, I know, it's real easy to read or hear that wrong . . . .)
I took Endurance and I liked it.
And for that, Unbreakable Fighter is good (you get Endurance AND Diehard at 1st level in place of your 1st level Fighter Bonus Feat, and replace Bravery with a much better bonus against mind-affecting effects in general -- as far as I can tell, you lose nothing in that trade except for Tower Shield proficiency (which you probably aren't going to use anyway), and your resistance to mind-affecting effects just keeps getting better (eventually becoming Immunity at 20th level). Remember that in addition to cold, the Irrisen elites and the Fey are going to try to mess with your mind . . . .
Also they only get touch AC if they fire a single shot. Multiple shots (if possible) in one round cause the shots to be considered normal attacks.I can't find anything in the rules that supports this, and given that my players are about to try to gain entry to the monastery grounds it could be quite important, so could you give me a reference please?
They may be my GM's home rule. Let me check...
There's a lot of Will saves involved in Reign of Winter?
They may be my GM's home rule. Let me check...Also they only get touch AC if they fire a single shot. Multiple shots (if possible) in one round cause the shots to be considered normal attacks.I can't find anything in the rules that supports this, and given that my players are about to try to gain entry to the monastery grounds it could be quite important, so could you give me a reference please?
Ok, it turn out I was referring to the Modern "burst-fire" rules presented in the RoW AP without meaning to do so. Burst fire weapons have a Line of Effect (Like a lighting bolt spell) and do not get to use the touch AC normally allowed to firearms. My mistake.
I would say there are a lot of all kinds of saves needed...but the Will saves will often be more important to the long run of your characters. (Curses, hexes, and premature aging oh my!)