Peter Heleva's page

By the way why is my mount only level 2 when my cavalier's effective druid level is equal to his class level and the paladin's divine bond says its effective druid level is equal to its class level wouldn't my mount be level 6 with 5 levels of paladin and 1 of cavalier?

I would say that the mount gets leveled up to your full levels - as soon as you reach 5 levels of Paladin. Until then you're stuck with a mount that's effectively first level, unless you take the Boon Companion feat. The feat explicitly says Animal Companions, but I'd allow it. Check with your GM.

Later, when that feat is useless, you have the option of retraining that feat, if you want.

I have to disagree. The volume of material gives a lot of options. Kineticist pages basically amount to spells known for a Sorcerer, except there's much less to choose from and a much narrower range of how to shape your build. They're actually much lighter than, say, a fighter, if you factor in all the combat feats you should be perusing when you're building one.

Psychic class is extremely light, moreso than wizards or sorcerers. Their spell list is everything, which is why I think (as written), they ought to have a full wizard/witch progression.

Medium is the exception, except that you're probably only keeping track of three or four different for the first few levels. On the other hand, the amount of spirits to choose from (especially at first) will make your head explode if you can't handle option overload.

So... don't play that class?

My most paperwork-heavy class so far has been Alchemist, and that includes a shapeshifting, summon-happy Druid with an AC. The amount of flux that a fifth-level bomb chucker with a familiar undergoes to practically all of his stats on a constant basis will probably outweigh the stuff you have to keep track of with a Medium; time will tell.

I'd actually stop griping about the lack of options at levels one and two if they upgraded the spell progression to full wizard level. Keeping them Spontaneous/Spells known is fine, but the spells are limited enough (no rays, very little battlefield control, no healing or summoning) that I think having 2nd level spells at level three is called for.

Casts Raise thread.

Now that there is no limitation on the Warpreist with any of its parent classes, how would warpriest and cleric work for spellcasting ?

edit, a lot of the original questions are still relavent. :)

The penalties are that you would have to keep seperate track of the two classes for spells and magic abilities, and your fellow players are now laughing at you for making such a foolish decision.

Joey. Out of combat. You are not being punched and healed in the middle of a fight. You know this. I even mentioned a wand of cure light wounds, which is an out of combat healing tool. :|

Yes, all combined you'll probably only see fear come up in most campaigns. Some GMs might include opposing barbarians or bards, but not many and not often. And if you're shutting off fear effects on allies, you're also shutting off any morale bonuses.

You're aware when someone casts a spell (which psychics do). It doesn't matter that you don't have somatic or vocal components. Your spell is still visible, still identifiable with Spellcraft, and still provokes attacks of opportunity.

I'm not at all aware that the spell is visible at all and I have that pending as a question in the psychic magic thread. It's been discussed that an attack of opp from casting a spell has less to do with the opponent knowing that you're casting and more to do with letting your guard down. If you want to rebut, post on that board.

And I'm also not clear on what you're hoping to milk out of "infinite" phrenic points. Example?

Read the beginning paragraph of the section on spirits. It explains that only a bare minimum have been provided for the playtest. There are 54 spirits in the full array, each of which will have two alignment components, like any other creature in the game. So all the spirits currently in the playtest will gain their L/N/C as well as having more spirits filling in the gaps in the full version.

Seems like this is on its way to being the grandaddy of text-heavy classes. It already taking up eleven pages. A wizard only takes six pages to give you a basic rundown on eight and a half magical schools, plus familiars. Heck, a cleric only takes up ten pages and gives you a selection of thirty-three domains, which double dips with Druids.

Reading 54 spirit entries sounds like homework. Ya gotta do something to make this class easier to swallow.

Nitpicky editing note:

The basic description of Focus Powers is on page 33 and the selection of Focus Powers begins on page 35. We don't get to a power that requires a save until page 36. I suspect many people will be skipping ahead to the implements that the class description dances around for three and a half pages. Once I see saving throw, I'm hunting around for where to find its value.

I would suggest either moving the descriptor for a Focus power's DC to the start of the Implements section, or copying it in brief there. Or creating a sidebar for the basics of Focus Powers.

Joey, what's the type in parenthesis by Trance? Should be (SP) (SU) or (EX). (If it's not there at all, that's a typo, and the confusion much more understandable.) I'm AFB at the moment so I can't look myself.

.... oh.

(I just learned a thing.)

To be fair, whether or not something provokes a standard action is usually bluntly stated in the text for most Supernatural abilities. At a glance, this includes the CRB listings for both Channel and Wild Shape.

First glance:

Good on you for dividing up the spell list by class. Makes it a lot easier to throw a build together.

joeyfixit wrote:

Discipline of Abomination wrote:

While she’s her dark half, a psychic can’t use any Charisma-,
Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics,
Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience
or concentration other than casting psychic spells.

The instinctively cruel alter ego can't use Intimidate? The class skill provided by the discipline?

Uh, you might want to re-read that quote.

At first glance, the class looks fun. Int based spontaneous caster is something I've wanted to see for a while.

Yup, I see it now. Except transmogrified into Including in my brain. That's what happens when a new playtest comes out just before game night.

It's 0640 here and I'm awake. I want my beta test because entitlement!

(hype train goes choo choo)

+1

Rynjin wrote:

Albatoonoe wrote:

Okay, why does psychic magic have to be different?

Well, because-wait:

Albatoonoe wrote:

Divine magic isn't different from Arcane. Hell, Alchemy is the most different and is still fundamentally in the same ball park.

Just answered your own question there I think.

We already have (supposedly) 3 systems of magic that function identically to each other (except Alchemy, which functions identically with the added drawback that he's not technically a caster so can't qualify for most of the Feats he should be able to qualify for...grand difference there).

I'm not seeing it, dude. We have an established way that magic works in universe. People know how to use the system. It's compatible with all of the spells they released. All of the rules. Whatever.

Adding a new system would be something new to learn. And it would require extra work in the future to add anything to it, so in reality we'd probably see less support of this system. And I'm not really seeing much of a gain.

Huh? Why is it bad to add new dimensions and interesting properties to a game you love?

I love Vancian magic but I am hoping for something fundamentally different from Occult adventures. What makes the most sense to me is to have a series of reusable powers like Bloodline sorcerer abilities, but more of them and and a somewhat higher power, and for those powers to then scale. How much/often the powers can be used daily will scale with the character.

Offer abilities to mess with others mentally without a will save (limit duration and effectiveness to compensate). For more brutal debuffs, offer a will save with a DC that scales with the character level.

Your natural knack for illusion allows you to maintain at least one illusion spell with little effort.

Prerequisite: Gnome.

Benefit: You can maintain concentration on one spell of the illusion school as a swift action. This has no effect on spells of other schools or on illusion spells with durations that don’t depend on your active concentration. While you may only maintain one spell as a swift action, you may take your move and standard actions to maintain other spells normally, if you wish.

Normal: Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Emphasis mine.

What I take from this is that you may cast an illusion spell and maintain it while you're doing standard actions such as casting spells. However,

The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.

You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating.

Emphasis mine.

So how does one maintain other spells normally while using the feat to maintain as a swift if you can't maintain two at once? Does Effortless Trickery count as an exception to the boldfaced duration rule above? If so, why isn't that part of the "normal" section of the feat?

In the case of being on the receiving end of a healing bomb, I'd say that it sounds to me like catching a football. The amount of Dodge/Dex that you lower in order to catch it should count inversely to the chances of an enemy hitting you, since you're concentrating on catching. Different from a ray, but not much different.

Does that make sense?

I'm actually planning an encounter in which PC's who step into a certain room in a dungeon (and fail a Will save) will be transported to an alternate dimension to fight for an extraplanar magic user (maybe an Illithid?) to do battle with an enemy. If a PC drops from damage, he's instantly returned to homeplane and all damage and ill effects healed.

But they'll remember.

I'm confused.

If the Scorpion Whip is pretty much the same as a regular whip except that it has extra blades in it (and is fancier?), and is heavier, why is it a light weapon when the whip is one-handed melee?

Why not classify it as a kind of whip instead of the bizarre "you can treat it as a whip if you're proficient with whips"?

If you're proficient with a whip, is the Scorpion Whip a finesse weapon?

joeyfixit wrote:

One of the things these messageboards have been howling about how the rogue doesn't work at high levels, and his abilities have been slowly co-opted by other classes (such as Alchemist bombs allegedly making sneak attack obsolete, etc).

The response was to take the cool things about rogues and stick them into other classes. Skill monkeyism and "sort of" sneak attack got put into Investigator. Sneak attack and murder got put into Slayer.

Not to derail the thread, but this seems illogical to me. How is the solution to other classes co-opting a class's abilities...making even more classes that co-opt the same class's abilities?

Because the new classes are more like specialized versions of the rogue. So, if I really wanted to play an assassin type character and didn't want to deal with ki, now I can play a Slayer.

In other words, the response wasn't to pander to the demands of the boards and completely rewrite the rogue, it was to make a new class that is more or less a super-rogue.

And for the peeps that aren't so much into the murder aspects of the rogue but are into sneakiness and maybe brains, there's the Investigator. A different variety of super-rogue.

This response made me much happier than simply making the rogue a full BAB, for example. Or giving them more bonus feats.

Does that make sense?

I'm just concerned because if the BBEG is say a dragon it only has spells or natural weapons to kill a a Pc with.

"Only" spells? "Only" breath weapons?

I'm starting a homebrew campaign soon. Rather than Golarion deities, which are very much intertwined with the history of that world, I'd like to do classical deities.

Has anyone ever done a complete workup of the Greek or Roman Gods using the d20/PF system? I'm talking domains and favored weapons, not so much character builds.

Here's what I'd like:

My gnome Summoner is sitting in a field, petting his rabbit (tiny). Bigger, possibly Bugbear-type thugs come to harass her.

Suddenly the rabbit leaps out of her lap and bites their heads off.

Afterwards the rabbit grows to Medium size, the gnome climbs on its back and the pair hop off into the sunset.

How close to that do you think I can get within the rules?

Is there a way for an Eidolon to have an adjustable size beyond simply casting Reduce Person before, Enlarge Person after? Like, can the Rabbit's normal size be Medium

Is there a way to grant an Eidolon's bite the Agile quality? Or to add Dex to Natural Attacks some other way?

Is there a way to make Natural Attacks Vorpal?

This is without a doubt the squickiest start of a thread I've ever seen on the boards here.

What about

(4) Realize that you might be in over your head, leave the castle to heal up completely, and come back at the problem with a new approach?

Beyond the normal behavioral stuff, there's an additional lesson to be learned here for GMs.

After every level up get a copy of the character sheets.

I find players to be notoriously unreliable at keeping track of their sheets and remembering to bring them to a game. If I'm running the game and hosting, I ask for the sheets to be handed in at the end of every session.

Works the other way, too. If I'm playing a regular home game at the GM's house, I prefer to turn my sheet in to said GM at the end of the game. One less thing to worry about bringing.

I should add that I typically run a character's stats by Paizo messageboards before I play it, so it's pretty easy for me to work on a character between sessions without having the sheet in front of me.

How much money you got?

Corset of Dire Witchcraft. 22K, +4 armor bonus. For witches. Also gives a Hex buff.

Yeah, Samwise Gamgee just busted out with a bit of a badassery.

Bilbo was bit more concerned with smoking his weed, growing his weed, and eating some bacon.

Um, Bilbo was waaaay more of a badass superhero than any of the whiny LOTR hobbits. Partly because of how ineffectual the (book) dwarves come off.

After blowing his initial troll encounter, the guy wins a game of wits (yeah, he cheated - so what?) against a cave monster that gets him a magic ring, which makes him champion of all stealth rolls, and then basically acts like a tank fighting spiders in the woods. Springs all of his buddies from captivity when they're captured by elves. To say nothing of out-talking a dragon.

And THEN he retired to smoke his weed. With his box of treasure. Guy was practically the Tony Montana of Hobbiton.

80 ignores the fact that swimming still requires a skill check, and penalties will be imposed for characters that are physically weak. GM fiat will also require fort saves for treading water for long periods of time, I would think.

But speaking of skills,

81) You can go to sleep one night not knowing anything about religion, but can wake up an expert on the subject by virtue of all the monsters you slayed during the previous day.

82) You can go to sleep being completely unable to speak a foreign language and can wake up fluent in it by virtue of all of the deadly traps you disabled the previous day. None of which involved said foreign language.

83) You can change your entire profession overnight and learn a new skill set without the implied years of training that would normally be required to do so.

also,

84) Disarming a sufficient amount of traps (or casting a significant number of spells, or negotiating a significant number of social conflicts) can make you more accurate when throwing knives at people, and vice versa.

85) Being a barbarian makes you faster.

You asked for awesome "broken" builds. I threw this together many moons ago, ostensibly for a one-off duel against another player (long story).

So she's fairly versatile, both in and out of combat. Eidelon'd up, she's pretty much a glass cannon, without the glass. I put her attack at a +23 with a masterwork ranged or finesse weapon, and with an AC in the 40's, Touch AC in the 20's (both before things like Haste or Mage Armor), and almost 300 combined HP to play with (not counting Stoneskin or Rejuvenate Eidelon), she's no slouch as a tank. She could also pick up a shield if a tank was what was really needed.

I didn't bother with skills at this level, but I imagine her diplomacy score would be sky high, so as a face or a spy I think she'd do pretty well, especially with Alter Self and a Hat of Disguise at her disposal.

She's no dedicated healer, but in a pinch she can even lay on hands to heal a d6 worth of damage ten times a day. May seem piddly at level 14, but bear in mind that magical healing will stabilize a dying ally.

Even in her Gnome form, she's not bad. If she's woken up in the middle of the night, she could start firing off 6th level Summon Monsters as a standard action, and she can sleep in Elven Chain, if need be. She's also not terrible as a controller, with stuff like Black Tentacles and Wall of Stone to supplement the critters. No arcane spell failure for SLA's means that she can strap on Full Plate and fire off those Summons every round, and DimDoor when she needs to (no somatic component, no arcane failure).

What's she bad at? Sneaking and skill monkeying. Which Greater Evolution Surge could fix.

What's her weakness? Um... Maze (if it can get through her SR). Tetori Monk (Evolution Surge can add the Grab and Constrict Evolutions, though). Anti-Paladin (maybe).

This is about the best build I ever put together for any class, not just Synthesist. I liked it so much that, when the duel never actually materialized, I decided to start this character from level one. I'm currently slogging her through level two as a straight Paladin, with a slightly different point spread (20 pt build, STR 5, DEX 10, CON 17, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 18). With 28 HP, a 17ish AC, she basically gets a shot off with the light xbow and then holds up her shield and acts as a punching bag for the bad guys, whilst gunslinger, druid, wizard buddies clean up the kobolds. Can't wait for level 3.

Captain America was the inspiration for this character, btw.

I say give them whatever challenges you were planning and let them figure it out. There's plenty there to work with. You have two damage dealers, a buffer, and a debuffer. The Sorcerer might need to step it up with control spells.

Need a rogue type? Alchemists have dethroned the rogue in many ways. The witch can probably summon something that can get around whatever the requirements are. If it's just spying, her familiar can probably handle it, right? Traps? Summon Minor Monster. Need a tank? Summon Monster I.

I definitely wouldn't give them a babysitter. No offense, Owly.

What exactly do you do with these? I read references to "need them to buy items of certain value", but I don't know how they work. Is there a chart or something?

joeyfixit wrote:

It sounds like you don't really want to optimize. That's cool, and I commend you for sticking to a concept.

Since you don't seem very interested in bombing and you want to stick to melee, I'm going to suggest another option to you - vivisectionist. Talk to your GM about trading the bombs in for sneak attack damage, since you want to be the ranger's flanking buddy. Don't like the anthropomorphic animal jazz? Just don't use it.

I'm pretty sure Internal and Vivisectionist can stack, since the only overlap seems to be the alternatives for discoveries (that shouldn't really be a problem, right?). Even if that doesn't quite follow RAW, I would allow it as GM because I think you ought to be rewarded for the teamwork spirit it takes to back off of ranged damage because it's the wizard's turf and to flank with relatively low strength and con because it helps the Ranger out. I still promote Infusion as your next discovery, but there's plenty of options for a melee Alchemist, especially when bombs are off the table.

I still say stick to Alchemist (to get that sneak attack damage up, duh), but if you go Vivisectionist, consider dipping into Rogue instead of Fighter. You'll get proficiency with a Rapier, and you can spend a discovery getting Weapon Finesse as a Rogue talent (and you can spend a feat on a discovery). The sneak damage will stack with your Vivisectionist levels.

In Pathfinder, I believe that all elves get rapier proeficiency for free.

So there you go. You're already proficient with bows and rapiers; if your GM lets you convert to Vivisectionist, you can spend a feat on Weapon Finesse. Get yourself a rapier and start making Dexterity Mutagen instead of Strength to bring up your attack rolls and AC and Stealth Rolls and Disable Device Checks and Ranged Attack Rolls and Reflex saves. Reflex isn't your worst save but I'd wager it's the most common at your level. Certainly it's the most common when trying to spring/deactivate traps. This drops your Wisdom and Will, though, so Con Mutagen might also be a good choice.

Alternatively, you could put a feat into Medium Armor Proficiency and wait until level 6 to spend your next discovery on Rogue Talent: Weapon Finesse. In the meantime you could keep pumping out that Strength Mutagen if you need to. This way neither your extracts nor your discoveries suffer. And by level 7 you'll be up to 3rd level extracts and Infusion will be even more worth it.

magnuskn wrote:

Robespierre wrote:

I would of taken barbarian at first level for 4 bonus health. Take one level in barbarian and get out. Grab the feat extra rage.

Never do that with a full-level caster or a 2/3 caster. Never. The loss of power is palpable and will haunt you until the campaign ends.

How so? I think that bonus strength, con, martial weapon profiency, medium armor profiency, four bonus health, faster movement speed, and better saves far better for a melee alchemist. It's not a loss in power it's a gain in power. Unless you honestly think that extracts are the main focus of the alchemist.

Better saves? The Barbarian has 1 good save, an alchemist has 2. Unless you're talking about Rage, which gives him a +2 to will and Con. For that he gives up 2 AC, can't use knowledge skills (which an Alchemist should rock at) or Dex skills like Escape Artist or Disable Device, which seems like a priority for this character. What do you need with martial weapons when you have bombs and a sword and board ranger's got your back?

Note that this character has a Con of 10, which means that 4 rounds of Rage is all he can ever expect to squeeze out of 1 level of Barbarian. If Rage is so important, I say stick with Alchemist and get it as a 3rd level extract that lasts Concentration + level, for a minimum of 7 rounds, and doesn't fatigue him at the end. If he's got Infusion he can share with the Ranger, too.

I do think extracts, discoveries, and bombs should be the main focus of an alchemist build, and all three are level dependent. Otherwise why play one? Why dip in Barbarian when you could play a full Barbarian? A barbarian that dips in Alchemist for the mutagen can do some damage at lower levels, and even though I probably wouldn't do it, I can see the logic. An alchemist that dips in Barbarian? Blech. Not for me. If you have to dip, I think the fighter's bonus feat is worth more than 4 rounds of rage.

To OP - For this particular group (which sounds really cool, btw; I'd love to be in a 3 man party again), it seems to me that the alchemist ought to be the ranged attacker and the wizard the controller. If Ranger needs a flanking buddy, Wizzie should summon one for him - With a 10 Con, that shouldn't be your job. Maybe talk to the wizard player about not focusing so much on blasting, since he seems to be stealing your thunder and giving you an Identity crisis. I do agree that with this setup, you're definitely the skill monkey/sneak out of combat. I still advocate taking Infusion as your next discovery, but another good option is Precise Bomb, so that you can bomb whatever the Ranger's attacking without hitting him with your splash.

For a feat, you could do worse than Mobility. Some day you might want Shot on the Run.

I think I know how Magical Knack works, but I want to confirm:

1)The character gets a +2 caster level for the purposes of things like duration and dice damage relating to caster level in the text of spells

2)The character gets a +2 to caster level checks

3)The character does NOT get a +2 to effective level for things like spells known, spells per day, and class features.

Am I leaving stuff out?

The last one has me scratching my head a bit, since to get those things seems kind of broken, and yet there's nothing in the trait that says you explicitly don't get them. Also, what about class abilities that rely on level? I'm thinking about SLAs that you get something like 3+1/2 caster level, minimum 1.

Perhaps the rub is that class features like that are based on "Sorcerer level" or "Wizard level" and not "caster level", as spell descriptions are?

Also, would Magical Knack apply to alchemists, who aren't explicitly casters but do have effective "caster levels" when it comes to their "spells"?

Okay, build is pretty much hammered out.

Haste will certainly be done pre-fight, so her flight speed will be 50. Against something within 30', she's rocking a +24/+24/+24/+19/+14 with her bow, to the tune of 2d8+10 if the first hit, and d8+5 on subsequent hits. Against something evil, like a summoned demon, add an extra 8 to both (but only 1 critter per this duel).

Cash is awfully tight. I'm considering knocking the bow down to +1 and buying a scroll of Stoneskin to free up the slot for Rejuvenate Eidelon, maybe a scroll of Blur, some adventuring gear, and some magic arrows. Also I can restore the third strength point of the compound bow. And since that'll be ten grand, maybe I can put an extra stone on that ring of delayed doom.

Oops - I guess I'll have to do that because I didn't buy ANY arrows, or a quiver to hold them. Back to the drawing board.

Ok, gang - find the weak spots. Where does this character fail? Saves seems covered, Touch AC is good, but not great for her level, especially vs True Strike or an Alchemist on speed, attack bonus is good, no one hides from Echolocation, and anybody who tries will meet the swarm of bats I send after them. If opponent is a blaster who throws out major damage spells that ignore evasion and get through SR, I have a total of 290 HP to play with. She can also heal herself (Summoner) for d6 HP as a swift action from lay on hands up to 9 times. May not seem like much, but that's 9d6 of pure healing (not transferring) that can be done during full round actions to fill up the base. Ring of Freedom keeps me free from Grapple Kings and control magic like Web or a quickened Slow.

If opponent is AM Barbarian, hopefully I'll win initiative. Also, no Synthesist Mount allowed by the rules of this engagement.

Quickened Slow. Hrrm...

Don't get me wrong - if there is an imminent threat from bandits, dragon, tougher goblins, zombies, whatever, then you really are roleplaying Seven Samurai.

And that would be awesome.

I'm putting together an Alchemist's Guide. So far Plant Shape 1 and 2 are both rated Red for no. I'll admit I've never played with anyone who cast this spell; seems like Druid stuff to me. Is it worth it? What can you do with a Plant Shape?

So, where has Trinam been?

I'm assuming he got hit with some sort of experimental ray that made AM BARBARIAN enter the real world, and now the two are in a road movie/buddy comedy on a quest to save Christmas.

"WHAT YOU MEAN, NO CAN SQUEEZE DOWN CHIMNEY RIDING BATTY BAT? NO HAVE PROOF, ONLY SAY 'BARBARIAN TOTALLY CAN'T DO THAT'. BARBARIAN USE +61 ESCAPE ARTIST AND SHOW YOU."

"Barbarian, no!"

(Chimney explodes)

"Here we go again..."

Nobody has 2 cents about CLONEBOMBNOVA?

I had to pull my oven out today because the cat keeps hopping on top of the burners, which means there's vermin in there. When I got it back far enough, the cat charged between my legs and flew into the corner after something.

Now I was staring down into that corner, looking for signs of life and not seeing any. But when the cat backed off there was a mouse. A dead mouse that had been alive a moment ago. That I hadn't even noticed because it blended in so well. That probably didn't know what hit it until it got the filthy gates of mouse heaven.

All I could say was, "Damn. Rage Lance Pounce."

Mister E wrote:

Banning his mobility? Nope. Trying to keep it sane, and a duel. If he teleports away to buff for six hours, isn't he basically running away? If the wizard is better "on paper", why does he need to run away into an invincible fortress to lick his wounds and regroup? Haven't I proven the argument at that point? It was my challenge, not his. I thought I was pretty generous to give him 2 consecutive rounds off the battlefield to buff and then return. Which he could have done over and over again, if he cared to. He also could have tried to knock me off the battlefield somehow.

Without the "PC must be on the battlefield" rule, what's to stop me from sending in the Simulacra with, say, an iron golem and a bunch of zombie ogres (or dragons, or hydra) and staying home? The 200+K spent on self-protection could have had a lot of better uses if I didn't need to be there, believe me.

What you're seeing from me isn't arrogance, it's defending my victory. If "on paper" the wizard is simply a vastly superior class, I shouldn't have been able to beat him in six rounds, should I?

You keep harping on this "cat's grace" point. The point is that I poked at him with a dispelling bomb to see what his highest buff is. It wasn't a terribly bad buff, IMO; it increases his touch AC which makes it that much harder for bombs to hit. The fact that he didn't bother with a stronger buff isn't due to his being an inferior player, it's because he focused his energy on summoning things to make my life miserable (which almost worked, eventually).

And, yeah, he probably felt he didn't need to buff more than that. Because why should he? Wizards are better on paper. This alchemist doesn't stand a chance.

If the wizard is simply a vastly superior class, that means that in a fight between two equals where the only variable is class, the wizard would always win. That is, if you fight yourself, your wizard would always beat your alchemist. If I hand a gun to a toddler and then stab him with a knife, I haven't proven...

Ok, well, you weren't there and you don't know my opponent. He's a seasoned DM who runs 3-4 games a week. His attitude was similar to yours, that a wizard is simply better on paper. I challenged this attitude and I won the duel.

He wasn't prepared enough? Not my problem. We had the same amount of time to prepare. I warned him several times that my alchemist comes from a vacuum as a wizard-killing machine, and that I expected nothing less from my opponent. Partly this was to put an end to the attitude that he doesn't dare throw a high-level NPC wizard against our party because it would tpk and we'd cry like babies.

I'm almost positive that the character he used against me was exactly the same as one that mopped the floor with the party in one of his games (that I don't play in); said party is the same level as the wizard. I didn't tell him to do that. I wouldn't have done that. Fighting one guy is easier than fighting like 6 guys in theory. I opted to take a page from Treantmonk's excellent guide and changed the reality of the battlefield on him. Do I think wizards are inherently inferior to alchemists? No I don't. Could I roll up a wizard that would demolish Mister E? Sure. Never mind the AC - Mind blank, Greater Invis, project image would be my buffs. Once the battle starts I'll hide in the corner and do my summoning there, through the image. I'd place some walls to divide the enemy forces, maybe a prismatic one, too.

You don't think it was a legit win? Agree to disagree. I don't really need to prove anything to you.

If you think you can beat me, roll up a wizard and come to PA and we'll play. Maybe you'll wipe the floor with me. Then again I might win. I'd have fun either way. In the meantime I'll answer any questions you have, but I'll thank you to stop making snap judgements about a game you didn't witness.

Mister E wrote:

More than one spell, you say? Why, I guess I'll hide amongst nineteen copies of myself, and make him play a guessing game as to where to put his save-or-dies.

Why is it that the wizard who summons critters to soak up damage is a crafty genius, but the alchemist who crafts simulacra "just got lucky"? Is the wiz who uses a bonded object, or a ring of wizardry, or his own ring of spell turning (the magic jar was there in part to test for the possibility of this) "getting lucky" or "relying on items"?

I made sure he knew which one was me because it was clear by round 4 that he had invested in save or dies and little else. This is why I stopped hiding and tried the rope-a-dope tactic.

Really I think what hamstrung him was the rule "only Paizo material only." He was a 3.5 player/DM and uses 3.5 material in his games constantly. People who are used to 3.5 brokenness take it for granted that wizards are untouchable. He, like many, doesn't realize just how mug balance...

Oh please, stop acting as if you masterfully beat a skilled opponent.

Quote:

Dispel check is high and gets rid of his highest buff - cat's grace.

I think you've shown much more arrogance after your win than your opponent showed by challenging you to the fight.

You spent hours upon hours preparing, I would be surprised if he even read through all of the spells that he had available.

That's not arrogance, that's laziness.

As for the rules, banning his mobility was far worse than restricting it to current edition rules.

Banning his mobility? Nope. Trying to keep it sane, and a duel. If he teleports away to buff for six hours, isn't he basically running away? If the wizard is better "on paper", why does he need to run away into an invincible fortress to lick his wounds and regroup? Haven't I proven the argument at that point? It was my challenge, not his. I thought I was pretty generous to give him 2 consecutive rounds off the battlefield to buff and then return. Which he could have done over and over again, if he cared to. He also could have tried to knock me off the battlefield somehow.

Without the "PC must be on the battlefield" rule, what's to stop me from sending in the Simulacra with, say, an iron golem and a bunch of zombie ogres (or dragons, or hydra) and staying home? The 200+K spent on self-protection could have had a lot of better uses if I didn't need to be there, believe me.

What you're seeing from me isn't arrogance, it's defending my victory. If "on paper" the wizard is simply a vastly superior class, I shouldn't have been able to beat him in six rounds, should I?

You keep harping on this "cat's grace" point. The point is that I poked at him with a dispelling bomb to see what his highest buff is. It wasn't a terribly bad buff, IMO; it increases his touch AC which makes it that much harder for bombs to hit. The fact that he didn't bother with a stronger buff isn't due to his being an inferior player, it's because he focused his energy on summoning things to make my life miserable (which almost worked, eventually).

And, yeah, he probably felt he didn't need to buff more than that. Because why should he? Wizards are better on paper. This alchemist doesn't stand a chance.

Mister E wrote:

Trikk wrote:

On paper, an alchemist will lose to a wizard.

Nope. Alchemist. KO in round 6. On paper.

Trikk wrote:

I don't think anyone would have bet money on you vs a wizard.

My opponent once thought as you do.

He's dead now.

This is like saying that straight up boxing is better than cross-training because fighter A won over fighter B in an MMA fight. You won because of an item, an item that's not specific to the alchemist and on top of that the item is extremely easy to beat. What are you going to do against a wizard that targets you with more than one spell? Ready action to re-activate the Ring of Spell Turning?

You won because of sheer luck if your battle report is to be believed. You spent more time prepping, your opponent was not even a divination wizard and had no tactics to face you. He didn't even have any area effect spells. All the rules were tailored to help you and you still had to rely on an item to have any chance at all of winning.

More than one spell, you say? Why, I guess I'll hide amongst nineteen copies of myself, and make him play a guessing game as to where to put his save-or-dies.

Why is it that the wizard who summons critters to soak up damage is a crafty genius, but the alchemist who crafts simulacra "just got lucky"? Is the wiz who uses a bonded object, or a ring of wizardry, or his own ring of spell turning (the magic jar was there in part to test for the possibility of this) "getting lucky" or "relying on items"?

I made sure he knew which one was me because it was clear by round 4 that he had invested in save or dies and little else. This is why I stopped hiding and tried the rope-a-dope tactic.

Really I think what hamstrung him was the rule "only Paizo material only." He was a 3.5 player/DM and uses 3.5 material in his games constantly. People who are used to 3.5 brokenness take it for granted that wizards are untouchable. He, like many, doesn't realize just how mug balance Pathfinder has built into it. If you're determined to take down a wizard, there's always a way.

The biggest Achilles heel of the wizard is their arrogance. The arrogance of "on paper, a wizard beats an alchemist every time" is the same arrogance that tries to end a fight with a save-or-die.

Let's be clear - my argument was never "Alchemist is a more powerful class than wizard". It was always "I reject the attitude that wizard is inherently GOBS more powerful than all other classes; to prove it I'll roll up an alchemist that can beat a wizard." My point was that an alchemist is a great class that can be devastatingly powerful in the right hands. I think I proved my point.

I used battlefield control tactics effectively for every round of that battle. The succubi were wasting their time attached to simulacra who stayed up round after round despite being grappled and smooched. Elephant goes around stomping minions instead of me. Control creatures were doing their job. Check. He had no idea which was the real me due to a good stealth roll. Real guy hidden. Check. I used a dispelling bomb to knock down his touch AC 2 points. Minions can more easily harass him with bombs, so he has to use transmutation kill magic on them. Check. Three bad spells that didn't go my way. (my battle record isn't flawless, because somewhere in there I used a Death Ward on myself also). Used a magic jar to poke at his inevitably nerfed will save and test his spell resistance. Check. No SR, no spell turning. Time to reveal, let him save-or-die me with a metamagic'd killer spell. Boom. Fight over.

Not luck, buddy. Strategy.

The only point in which I was threatened at all is when he sent his succubus after me (which I had not considered, assuming he'd go straight for the kill when he knew which was the real me). I blew my will save and blew my reroll. Losing a level in a duel with a wizard is no joke.

So what did we learn?

1) Don't try save-or-dies against a guy who has 240K to spend and access to a ring of spell turning.

2) There's no buff that gets you COMPLETELY immune to an alchemist's bomb damage. That said, DR is very effective against them, and creatures like succubi can take a lot of pounding from concussive bombs and still be standing. Wind wall will cut down on some of them, wind wall + displacement will cut down on a lot, but splash damage is not your friend and you should count on some direct hits getting through anyway.

3) Core does not "trump" newer base classes. Preparation does trump overconfidence.

4) The Alchemist has a lot of diversity and can still be extremely effective. Alchemical Simulacrum is a great way to illustrate this.

5) As written, the clone master is a worthless archetype. Almost all of the goodies can be gotten via discoveries, the simulacra will cost less, and you won't have to nerf bombs or poison resistance. The same can pretty much be said for the reanimator (though this at least seems like it would make a decent villain NPC).

So.

The battle took about five hours. We played on a 22x31 battlemap, forest with various trees, rocks, stumps scattered about more or less randomly. A large body of water ran through the middle, which was thankfully only 4 feet (d10) at it's deepest. Some friends helped keep track by keeping track of initiative and rolling to place all of Mister E's simulacra and Monolo (sp?) the Transmuter wizard and his 3 succubi and onyx elephant. 3 rounds to buff, so Mister E gets to take cognatogen, command his ring of spell turning, and take nondetection. 3 rounds mean all are immune to poison and have resistance against all four basic forms of energy.

Wizard player laughs real hard when he sees the sheer number of Simulacra playing against him. Gone is his trash talk along the lines of "I give you three rounds, then you're dead. Then I rape your corpse." OOC, he admits that he failed to memorize any area spells, which he now sees was a terrible miscalculation.

Round 1 - Mister E is high in the initiative order (behind some of the sims). By some miracle the wizard is dead last in initiative order. He pokes at the wizard with 1 dispelling bomb (though he could throw three as a full round). Dispel check is high and gets rid of his highest buff - cat's grace. Which surprised me. Sims poke at the succubi with concussive bombs and at Wizard with concussive until one decides to toss fire his way. No fire resistance from wizard. One of the snipers critically fumbles and the judges decide that his crossbow is broken; the other misses. Sim who tried to cast antimagic field fizzled, mishaph, spell did 2d6 damage. The two suicide bombers (who are buffed with amplify elixir) move toward the wizard (who is not invisible) and take detonate. Elephant, late in initiative order, tramples many sims down. Village idiot sim (buffed by true strike) successfully hits Wiz for 5 Intel damage. Wizard casts fickle winds on himself and two succubi. (30% miss chance for bombs).

Round 2 - Mister E stealths behind a bush and drinks magic jar elixir. Succubi ignore him and start grappling and kissing random sims. Sims attack succubi and elephant. Elephant tramples. One detonate goes off (forgot that the other was supposed to go off - what can I say, 20 characters is a lot of paperwork). I roll kind of low on damage but wizard takes full, flubs save. Fire damage, so succubi aren't affected. (oops). Second sniper is knocked down, can't reload because it's a full round action. A few sims attack Wizard. A few get through for mucho flame damage. Wizard casts flesh to ooze on Greatsword-wielding true strike buff'd alchemist marching his way.

Round 3 - Mister E tries magic jar on Monolo. Wizard makes his save (but at this point, player seems worried because Mister E is pretty well prepared). More succubi level draining. More trample. Second Detonator goes off. Rolls pretty high damage, several 8s. Wizard takes full, fails reflex save. Elephant is downed. One of the sims sees the onyx, tosses it toward wizard with intent to trample. Gelatinous cube goes after wizard, who is closest creature. Wizard makes his save to avoid absorption and cube fails to hit. Wizard baleful polymorphs a sim into a mouse.

Round 4 - By now, wielder of touch of idiocy wand is dead. Sims know that there's a wand of dimensional anchor in his bag, move to retrieve it. One succubi stops kissing and casts charm monster on revived elephant. Elephant fails save. Arg. More trampling. Wizard casts temporal stasis on a sim. Mister E gets back in his body and stands up.

Round 5 - More kissing. More trampling. Mister E chucks a dispelling bomb at Wizard. Misses.

Heck with it. No more games.

Mister E chucks another, which hits. Bad dispel check. Chucks a third bomb. This one is force damage, and aimed adjacent to him. He takes force damage from splash. Now wizard knows that Mister E #5 is the "real" Mister E (actually a doppelganger simulacram/ his body is made of the same stuff as the sims to fool True Seeing). Wizard commands succubus to kiss Mister E. He gets grappled due to his terrible CMD. Fails his will save. Fails his Iron Will reroll. Kisses succubus and takes a negative level. Despite this, wizard decides to bug out and casts Mage's Magnificent Mansion, with intent to hang out in it for 32 hours and buff, presumably get whole new slew of spells. I call shenanigans, since the rules of engagement states that "any character who leaves the battlefield for more than 2 consecutive rounds is considered resigned" (this allows the wizard to teleport away, buff, and return, but not ad infinitum, since basically this means that the character has effectively fled). I argue that the extradimensional space of the mansion is not on the battlefield. He says that it is. We haggle a bit and I concede that his character knows the rules and offer him a new spell in its slot if he would rather change his mind. He takes me up on it.

Mansion spell is retconned, instead he hits Mister E with a heightened, persistant feeblemind. This is the moment he's been waiting for.

But so has Mister E. Spell is reflected back at him via Ring of Spell Turning. He fails his save. He is feebleminded.

Round 6 - Sim comes at him with a firebomb, hits, wizard dead. Summoned creatures vanish.

Winner - Mister E.

:)

Don´t forget to post the outcome and a summary of the fight.

Go get em boy:)

Probably won't happen 'til after the weekend.

In the meantime, here's my budget:

The current feat/discovery tree:

So that's almost 10k left over; I have yet to budget out the scrolls; the alchemist is pretty spell-starved compared to the wizard (who can also manufacture just as many simulacra, by the way). I did make up a chart today and numbered them 1 thru 20, and rolled for Mister E's placement on that list (it goes without saying that all of them will be identical in outward appearance with the exception of the two snipers). I picked up a bunch of extra extracts, so I think I'll have to use the APG Human level bonuses to cough up a few hit points for bonus extracts.

I suppose I'll have to draw up individual character sheets for all these goons now, since there'll probably be tons to keep track of during the battle. Incidentally, I'm fashioning his appearance after Walter Bishop (King of All Alchemists). I'm going to try and design a paper mini over the weekend based on Walter and print up 20 of them and mark them up.

Ta for now!

My DM and I are going to have a duel. He's going to play a Wizard and me an Alchemist. We have not set the date for this duel.

So far the rules are:

level 15 (via 2d10)

20 Point Buy

Core Races Only

Pathfinder Spells Only (no 3.5 imports).

3rd party Ref (GM, really).

A few rules I'm going to suggest:

No 3rd Party Material - stick to CRB, APG, UM, UC, Bestiary.

3rd Party Ref designs the dungeon in which we'll duel and decides which of us has "home court advantage" via dice rolling.

No leadership NPCs or hired goons, but summoned critters/created critters (i.e. zombies, simulacra) are permitted.

Any thoughts? My initial thoughts are:

Human, mindchemist.

Fast Bombs. Overland Flight. Mummification+cold bombs+cold detonate.

Greater Iron Will, Cloak of Resistance.

Doppelganger simulacrum. At least 2 clones. Assume 1st clone will be squished/crunched by 15th level God Wizard. Outfit with what appears to be decent gear but is actually traps and cursed items (so that the first casualty will not feed him any decent gear).

Any constructive advice is appreciated.

Ta!

My thinking is that "create alchemical items" involves a Craft: Alchemy check, which Mutagen does not. By that rationale, extracts prep time would be quicker, too, wouldn't it?

Maybe it could be worded better, might be worth errata. Certainly a "full-round action" seems like way too short of a time to whip up a Mutagen, no matter the level.

EDIT: In fact it kind of says it later in an extension of the same class feature.

Instant Alchemy: At 18th level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation.

Mutagens require no Craft: Alchemy check, therefore are not subject to instant alchemy. From that I infer that swift alchemy similarly exempts mutagens.

As fun as this thread is, I think I have to kind of take the DM's side on this. It sounds to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this is happening:

KK: I bluff him.

DM: Okay, what do you tell him?

KK: I don't know. Something deceitful.

DM: So what is it? Just make something up.

KK: ... I can't. Can I just roll a bluff check?

DM: Yeah, sure, but what's the lie? What are you bluffing?

KK: Um... something deceitful.

DM: Okay, so the Bard stands there and looks at the guy with his mouth closed... deceitfully. The guy is unswayed. Anyone else?

IMO, a deceitful face character should be RP heavy. There has to be some creativity involved, or you might as well be playing a video game, yeah?

As for what now... well, you could just try and learn to come up with convincing lies. Or even unconvincing, if your skill modifiers are high enough. If not, then just ditch the bluff thing and focus on something else for this bard. How much do you have invested in being deceitful?

Since wood is scarce, why not just make that the central element of the setting?

What I mean is have it replace gold. Wealth is determined not by shiny metal but by how much wood you can get your hands on. Same with paper. Instead of paper money, ALL paper is now extremely valuable because it is rare (thanks, Kevin Costner!). Books are coveted things; this means bandits REALLY want to plunder a wizard's spellbook for the sheer value of it. Low-level casters therefore become somewhat of a liability. Inflate the price of scrolls accordingly.

"Plantations" of trees denote ridiculous excess. Mansions are filled with finely crafted wooden furniture. Poor folk, on the other hand, deal with clay, clay, clay, which itself is not terribly easy to come by because water is scarce in the desert.

Airships? Make 'em out of metal. They're going to be magically-powered, right? They can be made out of practically anything that isn't wood.

A simple forest becomes a mythical shangri-la, a "city of gold" that becomes a MacGuffin that drives the quest forward.

Dessio wrote:

joeyfixit wrote:

Steep feat tax? It's one feat with no prereqs, no?

Maybe not so steep as some others, but still worse than you make it sound. One feat yes, no prereqs to have it, but it has a steep prereq to work.. that being everyone else also has to take it. The tax goes up the larger the group.. 3 feats to sneak a 3 man group, and so on.

3 feats out of a group of three that would make them impossible to detect.

It's a teamwork feat. Other people taking it is kind of the point. Your interpretation would still make it completely nuts.

I'm still wondering if you can use it in combat at all. After all, two people don't make stealth checks on the same turn unless they are both hidden and someone is making a perception check to spot them.

Another valid point - perception. If all the modifiers stack with each other and the highest roll, the stealth score is going to quickly outpace team synergy's perception.

So say we take three 1st level goblin rogues. Their combined stealth modifiers are 50 (16+18+16). They each roll a stealth and the highest roll is a 15. So they now each have a stealth DC of 65, by Dessio's RAW interpretation. How do they continue to see each other? Darkvision or no, stealth isn't selective; there isn't anything in the skill description about being able to be seen by teammates.

It strikes me as completely impossible for these gobs to have a perception score anywhere near +45 without significant magical help (which implies that they don't need the feat and/or it's not necessary for them to sneak around anyway). So how do they see each other? The feat requires the teammates to see each other, but provides no percep bonus to do so. And in all likelihood most stealthy characters will have a better stealth than perception, except maybe inquisitors. And even they are unlikely to be able to keep up with a stealth score boosted by the feat.

In or out of combat, this feat makes less and less sense when you try to scrutinize it. Has ANYONE out there ever used it? If so, how did it work?

How exactly does this feat work? It says " add all your modifiers to stealth". For a party of rogues w/ this feat, if those modifiers stack, those numbers are going to be sky high (like 50+). Seems OP; is the RAI that everybody simply takes the highest roll and adds their personal modifier?
More questions: does this work in combat? Say you roll a 5, hide, and your buddy rolls a 20. No what? Does his roll retroactively apply to you? Do you need a better perception than his stealth, even if he started his turn in plain sight of you?
Has anyone ever taken this? How did you houserule it?