I want to shrink my PCs down and put them into orbit to retrieve an artifact from inside a dragon (that is floating in a low-planet orbit).
So how would we handle the vacuum of space? For starters, we need air bubble or a necklace of adaptation. For the pressure issues and micrometeors, I'm thinking Stoneskin. We can more or less ignore radiation issues, I think. Or possibly a helmet of underwater action.
On the other hand, necklace of adaptation specifically says that the wearer can breathe in a vacuum. It says nothing about surviving the other rigors of decompression.
Has anyone ever done this?
Subquestion: now that Air Bubble exists, wouldn't it make more sense for this to be the spell that forms a necklace of adaptation, rather than Alter Self?
If you cast a silent, still spell, does it completely negate the chance of people finding out that you're casting the spell? What if a caster is looking right at you when the spell is cast? What if they're using detect magic? Would a bluff check help?
Gear:
Headband of Charisma +6 (36k)
Ring of Freedom of Movement (40k)
Ring of Delayed Doom x3 (15k)
Necklace of Adaptation (9k)
Belt of Physical Might Dex/Con +4 (40k)
Magic Intelligent Seeking Compound Longbow +1 (+3 Strength), Echolocation 1/day (27.4k)
Agile Rapier +1 (8k)
Efficient Quiver (1.8k)
60 Arrows, Cold Iron (.06k)
10 Arrows, Adamantine (.6k)
Spell Component Pouch (.05k)
Stoneskin Components x 2 (.5k)
Scroll of Stoneskin x2 (1.5k)
Scroll of Greater Invisibility (.525k)
Scroll of Improved Life Conduit (.525k)
Handy Haversack (2k)
Hat of Disguise (1.8k)
You can hurt things with protection from good up. That's in the summoner class abilities. A switch hitting ranger doesn't have a lot on you, and your saves are ridiculous.
The zen archer and fighter archer might be pretty scary, but you have endurance on them as you can heal yourself and they cannot. The gunslinger will have difficulty hitting your touch AC reliably as you'll have a range increment of 110 ft. and he'll have 40.
You're still one creature so you don't have to worry about saving twice versus channel energy.
I forgot about the Eidelon exception to Protection from ___.
Another way around the channel negative energy problem is Undead Appearance. Doesn't even take a high level spell, since it's only a two point evolution. But now I have to wonder how that reacts with Lay on Hands. I suppose technically the Summoner can be laying the hands within the Eidelon, without actually touching it. Anyway, now he's healing the Eidelon instead of hurting it; wouldn't 'lil Paladin be feeling the hurt at that point?
As for the alchemist with simulacra: you yourself probably know of ways to combat that.
As a Synthesist? It'd be tough. I suppose I'd have to play Controller with some well-placed Wall spells to divide them up and then start picking them off one by one, flyers first. This might be where Dimensional Assault would come in handy, although I guess a magic Compound Longbow does the job fairly well.
Probably the best antidote is to be a blasting Sorcerer with a fair amount of area spells.
I can think of some more threats to my Summoner Paladin. Threats like:
A dedicated fighter archer
A Zen Archer (hoo boy)
A dedicated Bomber Alchemist (Touch AC!)
An Alchemist with numerous 7th Level Simulacra of him/herself - Touch AC for less damage but multiply it.
A properly built Gunslinger? (more touch AC?)
An Anti-Paladin (dunh dunh dunh!)
An eeevil Cleric - Even a Fused Eidelon counts as a summoned creature,
yes? So that means that I couldn't touch an evil cleric with Protection From Good up and running. Saving against Negative energy only prevents half, too. Say, does a negative energy channel hit both the Summoner and the Eidelon suit for double damage? With quickened Channel, that means a Synthesist might have to save for that damage twice in one round, taking at least half both times to both bodies. Not a bad tactic, actually, since by the Rules of Engagement I can't be Undead or a Dhampir.
A proper Switch Hitter Ranger
A 14th level Witch has access to spells like Feeblemind, Dust Form, Waves of Exhaustion (no save), Power Word Blind (no save), Ice Storm (no save), Walk Through Space (Dim Door as a Move action), and Eyebite (save, but can keep trying to sicken me every round), as well as the full Summon Monster spells all the way up to 7. Also has hexes with a DC that should be in the high 20's, including Misfortune. Also has access to an improved familiar, such as an Imp or a Quasit, that can use a wand to throw Magic Missiles at me every round. Also has access to Summoner Conduit to effectively double the damage against me, though that provides a save and she'd have to get through Spell Resistance.
An evil Inquisitor will be able to detect my alignment, effectively smite good with his judgements, Chaos Hammer, Dispel Good, Protection from Good.
Mind blank defeats see invisibility. Plus, my percep won't be tops and I have no idea what his stealth mod will be. Versus multiple characters I should expect at least one to be hard to find.
Maze does not impede your movement, you can move as fast as you like. you just happen to be in another dimension while you do it.
That seems like a very generous reading of freedom of movement to counter an 8th level spell like maze. I would not be surprised if your referee rules in favor of maze working on you.
Wizards are unable to cast 8th level spells until 15th level so he can't possibly have it prepared normally, somebody with a scroll of it is possible but that is what sunder is for.
He needs to get within 100 feet to cast it anyway, stay out of that zone and you've got no problem.
Somehow I goofed up Maze with Dimensional Anchor.
He needs to be within 60', yes? So my bow certainly helps, although the range of echolocation is only 40'. A clever wizard will be mind blanked, invisible, and silenced (so he'll need Silent Spell), and will wait for the Paladin Summoner to come within range of Maze. He needs two scrolls above his level, which is kind if pushing it but certainly within the scope of the rules, if he makes all his level checks.
I'd go Still Spell over Combat Casting. It's unfortunate that a tetori at this level will have a dimensional anchor effect attached to his grapple. If you're really worried about it, replace Toughness with Defensive Combat Training and grab Still Spell for the still grease.
EDIT: It won't help you with combat manoeuvres, but I just remembered that you have the option to make your eidolon's form small. The stat changes go -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, but you get the standard benefits of being small as well. Probably not a good idea, but it's another option for you.
After as much prep as I've done, I'd hate to end our duel in one swift stroke. He seems kind of intimidated, too, so I figure why not give him the benefit of a handicap. Besides, that frees me up to really maximize.
Found a pretty good mini tonight. I'd prefer a Bow and Arrow, but I think I can whittle that scimitar down into a rapier and maybe paint some shiny armor plating onto her.
Also, multiple foes makes me want to take dimensional full-attack mightcrawler build even more. Maybe I will take DimDoor as a spell after all.
Edge case maybe, but could a Tetori Monk be built with a high enough grapple check to pin you? 'Cause their inescapable grasp ability could cause you some trouble. (No escaping with freedom of movement or dimension door).
See, this is why combat casting. Almost seems worth Still Spell, too, sin there's no rod for it.
Okay, so what evolutions can I cast once I see a Tetori monk coming at me with winged boots or a ring of jumping? Grab, for one; I don't think Constrict would help too much against a high level dedicated grappler. I could also grease myself for the bonus to Escape Artist checks. Or I could act like a wizard and Teleport away, buff, and come back ready for action. Possibly invisible, sans Eidelon, and summoning critters every round. Can't grapple more than one at a time, right?
Tonight the kid said he had trouble choosing between which of the 4 builds he was working on. I told him to go ahead and use them all, one at a time, in any order he chooses. If I defeat one of his guys I want one round between fights to heal and/or buff buff, and reposition.
Hmm. Maybe that should be d4+1 rounds, so that when one of his guys quits/dies/runs away, his new guy has that time to prepare.
A Broodmaster would have access to 5th level spells, including Ethereal Jaunt. So he could start the battle with lots of things summoned to try and gobble me, and me with no way to damage insubstantial creatures.
With all respect to Mr. E, I think its also fair to post any way to beat this build since he is using the internet to help.
What class setup other than paladin/summoner would reliably take this thing down using the duel rules? Everything I think of can't beat the saves reliably or close in quick enough.
Not sure I follow your logic. He's free to post his own page and seek advice, yes? And I won't spy on his page.
Anyway, finding holes in the build is what y'all are for. So far I can think of Maze and a penetratey/ persistent dismissal/ banishment. Maybe a hulked-up anti-caster barbarian with some winged boots or a flying carpet.
TBD. I was there last night and the kid was still working on his character. Also, his dad neglected to tell him about the 25 point buy; I assumed he rolled him up as per DM's usual method, which is best of 4d6, reroll ones. Probably not this week.
Well you can definitely afford to up your intelligence to circumvent maze a bit. Lower your out-of-eidolon dexterity a bit.
For a little old +1? Nah, can't do it. Not for one spell. I'd sooner sack a few HP for a higher UMD and get a scroll of Spell Immunity.
But, I'm probably not going to do any of that. Since it offers SR, I'm just not going to worry about it. The kid deserves a great big golf clap if he thinks to buy that scroll.
It looks pretty good. The saves are ridiculous, and the AC is pretty top notch. A few questions:
That agile rapier looks awfully expensive. Aren't agile weapons only 8k?
How are you going to summon a swarm of bats while in eidolon form?
Pure cheese, but could you make yourself old for -3 to gnome physical scores +2 to mental scores? Every buff to that charisma score helps!
I don't think Combat Casting is necessary for this; if you're worried about your touch AC Dodge would help more, and there's nothing wrong with Improved Initiative or Weapon Focus. There's also Deadly Aim, which would give you a lot more punch.
Looking at your AC, I can only get up to 39: +14 natural armour, +4 shield bonus, +11 from dexterity. Is there a +2 I'm forgetting to count?
Ah, I got it. You were probably leaving out the +2 base nat armor bonus that comes with an Eidelon's Base Form. So +16 Natural Armor.
Not that I want to spend the feat, but I don't really get why Extra Evolution wouldn't work. So what if Fused Eidelon "replaces" the Eidelon class feature? I still have an Eidelon, right? And that Eidelon is still subject to things that only affect Eidelons, right? Like, for example, Devolution.
Been thinking about ways to kill my character today. Maze probably wouldn't be too good, since it's pretty certain to keep her off the battlefield for at least two rounds. Maybe I could Alter Self into a Minotaur and RetCon it?
Actually, since it's on the Summoner list, that might be worth a scroll...
I don't know if Dimensional Assault is worth it, especially if you're trying to focus on ranged combat. Actually, how are you casting dimension door? I don't see it on your spell list.
Synthesists get it as an SLA to replace Maker's Call and Transposition. At level 14, that's 2/day.
Alright, in that case the synthesist/paladin might be useful. I just wouldn't use dimensional assault then. Try maxing stealth out so you can get close and then full attack. Alternatively you could just summon endless lantern archons and hide, then summon eidolon and finish him when he burns his rage/spells/bombs or just take advantage of tactics. I'd also prep some spell counters just in case.Tricky casters,never know what they'll do
Why would I focus on Stealth when I've put so much into ranged attacks? It's not even a class skill.
Dimensional Assault - interesting. I may swap combat casting for that.
Do SLAs provoke AoO? Doesn't DimDoor specifically not provoke AoO?
Probably add grab and constrict evolutions, then DimDoor in and grapple. Or just charge through it and cut him up with the agile rapier. Or get a grab and a pounce and then charge.
Fair enough. Do you have any idea what you'll be fighting? What does your opponent typically like to use?
Damage dealers - thrower barbarians, rogues, universalist blaster wizard, archer ranger, sorcerer. Those are what I can think of. I wouldn't put it past him try a gunslinger, alchemist bomb chucker, or magus.
Rereading my posts, I don't think I've had enough caffeine this morning. I'm sorry, I was pretty rude.
Lol it's alright. We all end up there sooner or later. To be fair I was under the impression they faq'd the Extra Evolutions feat to work with the synthesist (shows what i know XD). My apologies if i was a bit trite on my end. No hard feelings, right?
Alright, now to the duel! How I would play this out would be to go Zen Archer. It's a fun class that i've been looking at for a long time and i personally wouldn't enjoy going against a kid with a fully optimized character (personal taste). It you were going against a munchkin it'd be different, but from all appearances you're not.
Now how to play the Monk: I would be passive aggressive. Simply ready an action to stop spellcasting if he tries to cast wind-wall and shoot him if he does. Eventually he'll get the idea and either a) stop trying to cast spells (since you can lose spells this way last i checked) or b) run out of spells to cast.
If this fails, i would have an artifact of antimagic or a wand of dispel or something of the like, just in case he does get an arrow-nerf ability off. Afterwards you can grapple him (monk beats casty in grapples typically) and just slowly punch his senses back into him.
if he ends up playing a non-caster or something just utilize your superior movement and arrows to bring him down. If he's a charger get somewhere he can't charge. If he's AM BARBARIAN then I'd question the diabolic focus of the kid you're up against.
EDIT'd for relevance
Well, first of all, kid is relative. This kid is 17, he's been playing for 5+ years, and his dad is a DM that hosts 3-4 games a week. The kid plays in all of them.
That said, he's got a lot to learn. I've been playing for a little over a year and I know more about character creation, balance, battlefield control (though he's no newb, and knows more than many). I did warn him that I'd crush him and he said he doesn't care. I think he wants the learning experience. This isn't for money, after all.
Heh. Believe it or not, it's for RP purposes, so she can appear to be something other than a 3' cutie or a scaly half-monster/ half-woman.
The character has grown beyond duel fodder to a kind of epic fantasy "Rudy" (and no, not Sam Gamgee). I'd like to have a duel-crushing machine that can also go out adventuring.
Anyway, I won't have time for another buff. And there's no way I'll have the time to cast even half of those spells - why not stick something in that fits the face part of such a high Cha build?
Anyway, I notice the spell improved life conduit, which I don't understand the use of. That eidolon's hit points and yours are constantly linked, and if your eidolon is about to die you can sacrifice your hit points to save it anyway. The spell seems superfluous for a synthesist. Other possibilities include greater invisibility, black tentacles, heroism, and displacement. Unless you know something I don't know about special uses of improved life conduit.
Action Economy.
Say he's playing a dedicated blaster, which is somewhat likely, or has a bunch of summoned monsters tearing me up. I'm not going to want to wait until all those Eidelon HP are burned up to start healing them. This way I can transfer 2d6 and then heal 1d6 of those as a Lay On Hands, and still keep action free for control spells or full attacks. If things get really serious, it's time for a Rejuvenate Heal, but in the meantime alternating Swift Actions can prevent a death by a thousand cuts.
Also handy against a horde of 7th level Alchemist Simulacra, which was my tactic in the last duel.
It looks pretty good. The saves are ridiculous, and the AC is pretty top notch. A few questions:
That agile rapier looks awfully expensive. Aren't agile weapons only 8k?
How are you going to summon a swarm of bats while in eidolon form?
Pure cheese, but could you make yourself old for -3 to gnome physical scores +2 to mental scores? Every buff to that charisma score helps!
I don't think Combat Casting is necessary for this; if you're worried about your touch AC Dodge would help more, and there's nothing wrong with Improved Initiative or Weapon Focus. There's also Deadly Aim, which would give you a lot more punch.
Looking at your AC, I can only get up to 39: +14 natural armour, +4 shield bonus, +11 from dexterity. Is there a +2 I'm forgetting to count?
I have 8k for the rapier, just marked down ring price somehow. Total is still right.
Summon Minor Monster. The Spell, not the SLA. Technically not a spell, but 1d3 or somesuch tiny creatures. This is purely to find an invisible, mind blanket opponent, since that fools Detect Evil. Also what Echolocation Spell on the bow is for. The tinies are just to increase my range, if necessary. In an actual adventuring day, they'd be good at finding traps, too.
Deadly Aim vs Combat Casting - I guess my thought was that I might find myself adjacent to a hulked-up, anti-casty Barbarian with Step-Up. Or a disruptive Teleport Tactitian Fighter with same, and needed the bonus to DimDoor or Teleport out of there. The Ring, at least, keeps me clear of Grapple Town. I'll consider it; Deadly Aim could come in handy putting down some giant monster with relatively low AC.
Improved Initiative on top of +11? Can't justify it.
Old? Nah, can't spare the Con. If the wizard makes his Knowledge Planes check after filling up my ring with hugeola save-or-dies, SuperBabe might end up banished or dismissed and leave Regular Babe relatively naked, and in dire need of HP when the Dire Lions come closing in. And since it's a duel, Regular Babe (actually, tiny Babe) can't diplomacize her way out of this.
Gear:
Headband of Charisma +6 (36k)
Ring of Freedom of Movement (40k)
Ring of Delayed Doom x3 (15k)
Necklace of Adaptation (9k)
Belt of Physical Might Dex/Con +4 (40k)
Magic Intelligent Seeking Compound Longbow +2 (+2 Strength), Echolocation 1/day (37k)
Agile Rapier +1 (40k)
Total: 185k
Haste will certainly be done pre-fight, so her flight speed will be 50. Against something within 30', she's rocking a +24/+24/+24/+19/+14 with her bow, to the tune of 2d8+10 if the first hit, and d8+5 on subsequent hits. Against something evil, like a summoned demon, add an extra 8 to both (but only 1 critter per this duel).
Cash is awfully tight. I'm considering knocking the bow down to +1 and buying a scroll of Stoneskin to free up the slot for Rejuvenate Eidelon, maybe a scroll of Blur, some adventuring gear, and some magic arrows. Also I can restore the third strength point of the compound bow. And since that'll be ten grand, maybe I can put an extra stone on that ring of delayed doom.
Oops - I guess I'll have to do that because I didn't buy ANY arrows, or a quiver to hold them. Back to the drawing board.
Ok, gang - find the weak spots. Where does this character fail? Saves seems covered, Touch AC is good, but not great for her level, especially vs True Strike or an Alchemist on speed, attack bonus is good, no one hides from Echolocation, and anybody who tries will meet the swarm of bats I send after them. If opponent is a blaster who throws out major damage spells that ignore evasion and get through SR, I have a total of 290 HP to play with. She can also heal herself (Summoner) for d6 HP as a swift action from lay on hands up to 9 times. May not seem like much, but that's 9d6 of pure healing (not transferring) that can be done during full round actions to fill up the base. Ring of Freedom keeps me free from Grapple Kings and control magic like Web or a quickened Slow.
If opponent is AM Barbarian, hopefully I'll win initiative. Also, no Synthesist Mount allowed by the rules of this engagement.
Have you included the ability to increase your Eidolon's dexterity score by up to 6 (not as an enhancement bonus either) for 2 evolution points per 2?
I do think the eidolon has a much bigger advantage in natural attacks. Your one major advantage will be evolution surging to meet just about any threat, as well as a ridiculous amount of hit points.
Also, did you mean to post with your pseudonym?
Heh. Yeah.
Ok, Mergy, I'm intrigued enough by the idea that I'm going to work up a full build based on it. Get back to you.
Constructs, creations, simulacra and summoned monsters are permitted.
No 3rd Party Material.
No deific interference (apart from powers/spells granted to divine characters.
Terrain/battlefield will be constructed by the referee.
Anything that can be purchased according to Paizo rules may be used to equip and/or prepare the character.
Characters will be placed randomly. Any gear/ creatures, vehicles/ buildings that the character has purchased, manufactured, or summoned, that cannot be held on his person will also be placed randomly, with the exception of mounted creatures.
Characters may prepare spells/extracts ahead of time, but no casting or item activation until the queue period.
Characters will each be permitted the same amount of queue prep time, equal to 1d4+1 rounds, to be determined on the day of battle.
Players may "tap out" and resign the contest at any time, regardless of turn. Characters forced to resign against their will does not end the contest.
Characters must begin on the battlefield. Characters who vacate the battlefield for more than 2 consecutive rounds are considered resigned.
Characters may have up to 2 traits and up to 2 flaws.
In the aftermath of my last, rather epic duel, the DM's teenage son has challenged me to one of his own. I've assured him he'll lose, but he wants the fight anyway. Never one to back off of a fight, I've agreed. This time, though, instead of a wizard/alchemist duel, I've proposed that neither of us know our opponent's class until the day of the battle. Also, that multiclassing is okay.
Since the kid isn't quite as savvy as his pop (whom I crushed in under 7 rounds), I'm going to get a little experimental with this one, and multiclass two classes and a race I've never played. DM rolled 2d10 for level and got a 14. So-
Gnome Paladin 7/Summoner 7 (Female)
Base scores:
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 16
Play scores:
Str 8/12 (-2 race)
Dex 18/22 (2 level)
Con 16 (1 level, 2 race)
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 18/24 (2 race)
1 Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
3 Arcane Armor Training
5 Mounted Combat
7 Mounted Archery
9 Manyshot
11 Arcane Armor Mastery
13 Deadly Aim? Combat Casting? Some third thing?
Gear:
Belt of Physical Might +4 (Strength/Dex) (40k)
Headband of Charisma +6 (36k)
Mithral Full Plate +3 (20.5k)
Ring of Protection +3 (18k)
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8k)
Cloak of Resistance +4 (16k)
LG Seeking Intelligent 120' Blindsense Longbow +2, Echolocation 1/day (36.775k)
Which leaves me almost 10 grand to spend on 3rd level Summoner Scrolls.
For Eidelon, I was thinking something like a two-headed Griffin.
Bipedal
Evolutions:
Flight 3 (60')
Pounce 1
Claws 1
Mount 1
Extra Head 2
Bite 1
Scent 1
Feats:
Multi Attack
Improved Natural Attack (bite)
Extra Evolution?
Experienced Summoners will notice that the Eidelon's attack numbers are going to be waaaaaay lower than the Paladins, and may be wondering why I'm putting everything into his attacks rather than AC. It's because I can't justify putting everything into the longbow; one well-place Wind Wall could effectively negate my offensive capability. Seven of each seems just about right; the Paladin's 8th level aura is made defunct due to the Eidelon's abilities, and Summoner levels 5-7 all add to the Paladin's BAB. Plus, I'll probably be pretty good at healing the critter.
I could use advice about the 13th level feat, and about what Achilles Heels I could be missing - the biggest one I see right now is Eidelon Saving throws, which is only partially mitigated by Paladin's Sacrifice. Of course, that's assuming my opponent knows that I'm only half Summoner, which will be tough.
Banning his mobility? Nope. Trying to keep it sane, and a duel. If he teleports away to buff for six hours, isn't he basically running away? If the wizard is better "on paper", why does he need to run away into an invincible fortress to lick his wounds and regroup? Haven't I proven the argument at that point? It was my challenge, not his. I thought I was pretty generous to give him 2 consecutive rounds off the battlefield to buff and then return. Which he could have done over and over again, if he cared to. He also could have tried to knock me off the battlefield somehow.
Without the "PC must be on the battlefield" rule, what's to stop me from sending in the Simulacra with, say, an iron golem and a bunch of zombie ogres (or dragons, or hydra) and staying home? The 200+K spent on self-protection could have had a lot of better uses if I didn't need to be there, believe me.
What you're seeing from me isn't arrogance, it's defending my victory. If "on paper" the wizard is simply a vastly superior class, I shouldn't have been able to beat him in six rounds, should I?
You keep harping on this "cat's grace" point. The point is that I poked at him with a dispelling bomb to see what his highest buff is. It wasn't a terribly bad buff, IMO; it increases his touch AC which makes it that much harder for bombs to hit. The fact that he didn't bother with a stronger buff isn't due to his being an inferior player, it's because he focused his energy on summoning things to make my life miserable (which almost worked, eventually).
And, yeah, he probably felt he didn't need to buff more than that. Because why should he? Wizards are better on paper. This alchemist doesn't stand a chance.
If the wizard is simply a vastly superior class, that means that in a fight between two equals where the only variable is class, the wizard would always win. That is, if you fight yourself, your wizard would always beat your alchemist. If I hand a gun to a toddler and then stab him with a knife, I haven't proven...
Ok, well, you weren't there and you don't know my opponent. He's a seasoned DM who runs 3-4 games a week. His attitude was similar to yours, that a wizard is simply better on paper. I challenged this attitude and I won the duel.
He wasn't prepared enough? Not my problem. We had the same amount of time to prepare. I warned him several times that my alchemist comes from a vacuum as a wizard-killing machine, and that I expected nothing less from my opponent. Partly this was to put an end to the attitude that he doesn't dare throw a high-level NPC wizard against our party because it would tpk and we'd cry like babies.
I'm almost positive that the character he used against me was exactly the same as one that mopped the floor with the party in one of his games (that I don't play in); said party is the same level as the wizard. I didn't tell him to do that. I wouldn't have done that. Fighting one guy is easier than fighting like 6 guys in theory. I opted to take a page from Treantmonk's excellent guide and changed the reality of the battlefield on him. Do I think wizards are inherently inferior to alchemists? No I don't. Could I roll up a wizard that would demolish Mister E? Sure. Never mind the AC - Mind blank, Greater Invis, project image would be my buffs. Once the battle starts I'll hide in the corner and do my summoning there, through the image. I'd place some walls to divide the enemy forces, maybe a prismatic one, too.
You don't think it was a legit win? Agree to disagree. I don't really need to prove anything to you.
If you think you can beat me, roll up a wizard and come to PA and we'll play. Maybe you'll wipe the floor with me. Then again I might win. I'd have fun either way. In the meantime I'll answer any questions you have, but I'll thank you to stop making snap judgements about a game you didn't witness.
More than one spell, you say? Why, I guess I'll hide amongst nineteen copies of myself, and make him play a guessing game as to where to put his save-or-dies.
Why is it that the wizard who summons critters to soak up damage is a crafty genius, but the alchemist who crafts simulacra "just got lucky"? Is the wiz who uses a bonded object, or a ring of wizardry, or his own ring of spell turning (the magic jar was there in part to test for the possibility of this) "getting lucky" or "relying on items"?
I made sure he knew which one was me because it was clear by round 4 that he had invested in save or dies and little else. This is why I stopped hiding and tried the rope-a-dope tactic.
Really I think what hamstrung him was the rule "only Paizo material only." He was a 3.5 player/DM and uses 3.5 material in his games constantly. People who are used to 3.5 brokenness take it for granted that wizards are untouchable. He, like many, doesn't realize just how mug balance...
Oh please, stop acting as if you masterfully beat a skilled opponent.
Quote:
Dispel check is high and gets rid of his highest buff - cat's grace.
I think you've shown much more arrogance after your win than your opponent showed by challenging you to the fight.
You spent hours upon hours preparing, I would be surprised if he even read through all of the spells that he had available.
That's not arrogance, that's laziness.
As for the rules, banning his mobility was far worse than restricting it to current edition rules.
Banning his mobility? Nope. Trying to keep it sane, and a duel. If he teleports away to buff for six hours, isn't he basically running away? If the wizard is better "on paper", why does he need to run away into an invincible fortress to lick his wounds and regroup? Haven't I proven the argument at that point? It was my challenge, not his. I thought I was pretty generous to give him 2 consecutive rounds off the battlefield to buff and then return. Which he could have done over and over again, if he cared to. He also could have tried to knock me off the battlefield somehow.
Without the "PC must be on the battlefield" rule, what's to stop me from sending in the Simulacra with, say, an iron golem and a bunch of zombie ogres (or dragons, or hydra) and staying home? The 200+K spent on self-protection could have had a lot of better uses if I didn't need to be there, believe me.
What you're seeing from me isn't arrogance, it's defending my victory. If "on paper" the wizard is simply a vastly superior class, I shouldn't have been able to beat him in six rounds, should I?
You keep harping on this "cat's grace" point. The point is that I poked at him with a dispelling bomb to see what his highest buff is. It wasn't a terribly bad buff, IMO; it increases his touch AC which makes it that much harder for bombs to hit. The fact that he didn't bother with a stronger buff isn't due to his being an inferior player, it's because he focused his energy on summoning things to make my life miserable (which almost worked, eventually).
And, yeah, he probably felt he didn't need to buff more than that. Because why should he? Wizards are better on paper. This alchemist doesn't stand a chance.
I don't think anyone would have bet money on you vs a wizard.
My opponent once thought as you do.
He's dead now.
This is like saying that straight up boxing is better than cross-training because fighter A won over fighter B in an MMA fight. You won because of an item, an item that's not specific to the alchemist and on top of that the item is extremely easy to beat. What are you going to do against a wizard that targets you with more than one spell? Ready action to re-activate the Ring of Spell Turning?
You won because of sheer luck if your battle report is to be believed. You spent more time prepping, your opponent was not even a divination wizard and had no tactics to face you. He didn't even have any area effect spells. All the rules were tailored to help you and you still had to rely on an item to have any chance at all of winning.
More than one spell, you say? Why, I guess I'll hide amongst nineteen copies of myself, and make him play a guessing game as to where to put his save-or-dies.
Why is it that the wizard who summons critters to soak up damage is a crafty genius, but the alchemist who crafts simulacra "just got lucky"? Is the wiz who uses a bonded object, or a ring of wizardry, or his own ring of spell turning (the magic jar was there in part to test for the possibility of this) "getting lucky" or "relying on items"?
I made sure he knew which one was me because it was clear by round 4 that he had invested in save or dies and little else. This is why I stopped hiding and tried the rope-a-dope tactic.
Really I think what hamstrung him was the rule "only Paizo material only." He was a 3.5 player/DM and uses 3.5 material in his games constantly. People who are used to 3.5 brokenness take it for granted that wizards are untouchable. He, like many, doesn't realize just how mug balance Pathfinder has built into it. If you're determined to take down a wizard, there's always a way.
The biggest Achilles heel of the wizard is their arrogance. The arrogance of "on paper, a wizard beats an alchemist every time" is the same arrogance that tries to end a fight with a save-or-die.
Let's be clear - my argument was never "Alchemist is a more powerful class than wizard". It was always "I reject the attitude that wizard is inherently GOBS more powerful than all other classes; to prove it I'll roll up an alchemist that can beat a wizard." My point was that an alchemist is a great class that can be devastatingly powerful in the right hands. I think I proved my point.
I used battlefield control tactics effectively for every round of that battle. The succubi were wasting their time attached to simulacra who stayed up round after round despite being grappled and smooched. Elephant goes around stomping minions instead of me. Control creatures were doing their job. Check. He had no idea which was the real me due to a good stealth roll. Real guy hidden. Check. I used a dispelling bomb to knock down his touch AC 2 points. Minions can more easily harass him with bombs, so he has to use transmutation kill magic on them. Check. Three bad spells that didn't go my way. (my battle record isn't flawless, because somewhere in there I used a Death Ward on myself also). Used a magic jar to poke at his inevitably nerfed will save and test his spell resistance. Check. No SR, no spell turning. Time to reveal, let him save-or-die me with a metamagic'd killer spell. Boom. Fight over.
Not luck, buddy. Strategy.
The only point in which I was threatened at all is when he sent his succubus after me (which I had not considered, assuming he'd go straight for the kill when he knew which was the real me). I blew my will save and blew my reroll. Losing a level in a duel with a wizard is no joke.
1) Don't try save-or-dies against a guy who has 240K to spend and access to a ring of spell turning.
2) There's no buff that gets you COMPLETELY immune to an alchemist's bomb damage. That said, DR is very effective against them, and creatures like succubi can take a lot of pounding from concussive bombs and still be standing. Wind wall will cut down on some of them, wind wall + displacement will cut down on a lot, but splash damage is not your friend and you should count on some direct hits getting through anyway.
3) Core does not "trump" newer base classes. Preparation does trump overconfidence.
4) The Alchemist has a lot of diversity and can still be extremely effective. Alchemical Simulacrum is a great way to illustrate this.
5) As written, the clone master is a worthless archetype. Almost all of the goodies can be gotten via discoveries, the simulacra will cost less, and you won't have to nerf bombs or poison resistance. The same can pretty much be said for the reanimator (though this at least seems like it would make a decent villain NPC).
The battle took about five hours. We played on a 22x31 battlemap, forest with various trees, rocks, stumps scattered about more or less randomly. A large body of water ran through the middle, which was thankfully only 4 feet (d10) at it's deepest. Some friends helped keep track by keeping track of initiative and rolling to place all of Mister E's simulacra and Monolo (sp?) the Transmuter wizard and his 3 succubi and onyx elephant. 3 rounds to buff, so Mister E gets to take cognatogen, command his ring of spell turning, and take nondetection. 3 rounds mean all are immune to poison and have resistance against all four basic forms of energy.
Wizard player laughs real hard when he sees the sheer number of Simulacra playing against him. Gone is his trash talk along the lines of "I give you three rounds, then you're dead. Then I rape your corpse." OOC, he admits that he failed to memorize any area spells, which he now sees was a terrible miscalculation.
Round 1 - Mister E is high in the initiative order (behind some of the sims). By some miracle the wizard is dead last in initiative order. He pokes at the wizard with 1 dispelling bomb (though he could throw three as a full round). Dispel check is high and gets rid of his highest buff - cat's grace. Which surprised me. Sims poke at the succubi with concussive bombs and at Wizard with concussive until one decides to toss fire his way. No fire resistance from wizard. One of the snipers critically fumbles and the judges decide that his crossbow is broken; the other misses. Sim who tried to cast antimagic field fizzled, mishaph, spell did 2d6 damage. The two suicide bombers (who are buffed with amplify elixir) move toward the wizard (who is not invisible) and take detonate. Elephant, late in initiative order, tramples many sims down. Village idiot sim (buffed by true strike) successfully hits Wiz for 5 Intel damage. Wizard casts fickle winds on himself and two succubi. (30% miss chance for bombs).
Round 2 - Mister E stealths behind a bush and drinks magic jar elixir. Succubi ignore him and start grappling and kissing random sims. Sims attack succubi and elephant. Elephant tramples. One detonate goes off (forgot that the other was supposed to go off - what can I say, 20 characters is a lot of paperwork). I roll kind of low on damage but wizard takes full, flubs save. Fire damage, so succubi aren't affected. (oops). Second sniper is knocked down, can't reload because it's a full round action. A few sims attack Wizard. A few get through for mucho flame damage. Wizard casts flesh to ooze on Greatsword-wielding true strike buff'd alchemist marching his way.
Round 3 - Mister E tries magic jar on Monolo. Wizard makes his save (but at this point, player seems worried because Mister E is pretty well prepared). More succubi level draining. More trample. Second Detonator goes off. Rolls pretty high damage, several 8s. Wizard takes full, fails reflex save. Elephant is downed. One of the sims sees the onyx, tosses it toward wizard with intent to trample. Gelatinous cube goes after wizard, who is closest creature. Wizard makes his save to avoid absorption and cube fails to hit. Wizard baleful polymorphs a sim into a mouse.
Round 4 - By now, wielder of touch of idiocy wand is dead. Sims know that there's a wand of dimensional anchor in his bag, move to retrieve it. One succubi stops kissing and casts charm monster on revived elephant. Elephant fails save. Arg. More trampling. Wizard casts temporal stasis on a sim. Mister E gets back in his body and stands up.
Round 5 - More kissing. More trampling. Mister E chucks a dispelling bomb at Wizard. Misses.
Heck with it. No more games.
Mister E chucks another, which hits. Bad dispel check. Chucks a third bomb. This one is force damage, and aimed adjacent to him. He takes force damage from splash. Now wizard knows that Mister E #5 is the "real" Mister E (actually a doppelganger simulacram/ his body is made of the same stuff as the sims to fool True Seeing). Wizard commands succubus to kiss Mister E. He gets grappled due to his terrible CMD. Fails his will save. Fails his Iron Will reroll. Kisses succubus and takes a negative level. Despite this, wizard decides to bug out and casts Mage's Magnificent Mansion, with intent to hang out in it for 32 hours and buff, presumably get whole new slew of spells. I call shenanigans, since the rules of engagement states that "any character who leaves the battlefield for more than 2 consecutive rounds is considered resigned" (this allows the wizard to teleport away, buff, and return, but not ad infinitum, since basically this means that the character has effectively fled). I argue that the extradimensional space of the mansion is not on the battlefield. He says that it is. We haggle a bit and I concede that his character knows the rules and offer him a new spell in its slot if he would rather change his mind. He takes me up on it.
Mansion spell is retconned, instead he hits Mister E with a heightened, persistant feeblemind. This is the moment he's been waiting for.
But so has Mister E. Spell is reflected back at him via Ring of Spell Turning. He fails his save. He is feebleminded.
Round 6 - Sim comes at him with a firebomb, hits, wizard dead. Summoned creatures vanish.
Duel postponed until tomorrow night. Meantime I've started rolling up extra (and simpler) Alchemists, since he's pretty confident of speedy victory and says he's found a way to "nullify" bombs (my guess is wind wall/displacement, any other ideas?).
Anti-magic field... but that hurts him more since you can just close and beat him down.
I equipped one with a scroll of AF and gave another a Greatsword to try this tactic it failed.
We have just finished round 4. Things are going fairly well for me so far. No mind blank, no invisibility. Magic jar failed, but the attempt didn't kill me. 5 sims are down. 1 from flesh to jelly, one from baleful polymorph. 2 detonated (amplified). More from his onyx elephant's trample.
Rod of cancellation vs fickle winds spell - does this work?
Wiz has fickle winds, along with 2/3 of summoned succubi.
Duel postponed until tomorrow night. Meantime I've started rolling up extra (and simpler) Alchemists, since he's pretty confident of speedy victory and says he's found a way to "nullify" bombs (my guess is wind wall/displacement, any other ideas?).
My DM and I are going to have a duel. He's going to play a Wizard and me an Alchemist. We have not set the date for this duel.
So far the rules are:
level 15 (via 2d10)
20 Point Buy
Core Races Only
Pathfinder Spells Only (no 3.5 imports).
3rd party Ref (GM, really).
A few rules I'm going to suggest:
No 3rd Party Material - stick to CRB, APG, UM, UC, Bestiary.
3rd Party Ref designs the dungeon in which we'll duel and decides which of us has "home court advantage" via dice rolling.
No leadership NPCs or hired goons, but summoned critters/created critters (i.e. zombies, simulacra) are permitted.
Any thoughts? My initial thoughts are:
Human, mindchemist.
Fast Bombs. Overland Flight. Mummification+cold bombs+cold detonate.
Greater Iron Will, Cloak of Resistance.
Doppelganger simulacrum. At least 2 clones. Assume 1st clone will be squished/crunched by 15th level God Wizard. Outfit with what appears to be decent gear but is actually traps and cursed items (so that the first casualty will not feed him any decent gear).
Any constructive advice is appreciated.
Ta!
Rules of the duel? Magic items? There's a "ring", or no space limitations?
How many buffs?
Btw, this use of rpg doesn't have much sense ;)
Keep reading. I answer those questions in a post on page 3. The ring will pretty much be the map at his house (it's pretty big). Probably it'll be a dungeon, to keep the material on board.
Bad use of RPG? For you, maybe. For us it's a nice duel of wits and lets us blow off some aggression; DM gets to wail on me without it f#%$ing up a campaign or hurting feelings, and I get his A game without a TPK.
No one ever answered the "how a non-caster puts reach metamagic on a wand" question.
A Caster applies Metamagic to a Wand during item creation, so you should be able to get a Metamagic Wand the same way you get every other Magic item that you didn´t create yourself. Just adjust the cost to the increased spell level, so a Wand whith a first level spell and a metamagic that increases the spells level by 1 has the cost of a second level wand.
So that effectively doubles the price of the wand, which is a shot in the dark to force him to cover melee to begin with.
Nah. True Strike is much cheaper, and it'll be terribly disappointing when the dupe goes up in flames as is.
Just remember that Touch of Idiocy don't stack with itself (you only use the largest penalty).
I'm not seeing this anywhere.
Touch of Idiocy: With a touch, you reduce the target's mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can't reduce any of these scores below 1.
This spell's effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level.
This makes sense to me. In the same way that multiple fox's cunning's wouldn't make one super duper smart, multiple touch of idiocies (touches of idiocy) shouldn't render one moronic. Hopefully I can get it down to the low 20's, though.
I also argue that an alchemist's bombs can't critically fumble because they can't critically hit. A 1 is simply a guaranteed miss, just as a 20 is simply a guaranteed hit. Anyone else go by this rule?
No one ever answered the "how a non-caster puts reach metamagic on a wand" question.
Well, I'm not so sure. I'm confident of going first because between me and the boy's I'll be rolling 20 seperate initiatives. All of them will have Improved Init and at least two of them will be operating under Anticipate Peril. So unless he's playing a diviner, I'm counting on at least half of them beating my opponent.
But what if he simply allows himself to be destroyed, wakes up in his clone, picks the appropriate magic item off his shelf, and teleports in with a delayed blast fireball? I full expect that this could happen. I thought about it myself, but the helm of Teleportation is way more expensive than 19 armed copies.
I realize I'm coming late to this party, but looking through here there was a thought that crossed my mind and I didn't see suggested.
Have you considered the Implant Bomb feat? Where you're looking at having a small contingent of helpers with you, this could potentially be a good way for you to turn the tables on the wizard, particularly if the arena that is chosen features enclosed spaces, where the wizard will be up close to the creatures when he destroys them.
And since you can apply any of your bomb affecting discoveries to implanted bombs, you could use this as an easy means of creating zones that are difficult for the wizard to go through. A couple dispelling bombs inside your creatures could really put a hole in any preparations he makes.
Just a thought.
It's interesting, but I see a few problems:
1. It sucks up two feat/discovery slots (one for the delayed bomb, one for implant bomb).
2. Dispelling bombs have no splash damage (or any damage at all), and only dispel on a direct hit.
3. At 8d4 Force damage, that means 1200 per implanted bomb, more than doubling the cost of the simulacra. And if I'm just going to 4d6/4d4 Sim Bombs, why bother?
4. The splash damage is just as likely to hit the other simulacra.
5. The duration is 24 hours, and it eats up my available bombs, and I'll need lots to chuck at my opponent via fast bombs.
6. Wiz will almost certainly be flying and it will be very difficult to exercise battlefield control against him, so I'm focusing on straight blasting.
Alchemists have terrific control elements in their toolbox (bottled oozes, zombies, strafing, poison bomb) but they're mostly restricted to landbound battles. If this were an infiltration job, I could see trying it, but this will be an arena battle.
This seems way more like a villain/NPC feat to me. An interesting challenge to get the bomb out of the princess/key witness/informant before it goes off. Or BBEG could send out kids with implanted bombs, and now the PCs really have a reason to hate him.
But I like the out-of-the-box ideas. Keep 'em coming.
