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Uqbarian wrote: I think they've always been like this. Which isn't to say I think all APs are bad, more that they all have high points and low points. This is definitely true for me, even my most liked AP's have a weak book in them where either the plot goes off the rails for a tangent or it just feels like it's not giving to the same standards of other books in the same AP. It's also more often than not a later book, usually a bk4 or a bk5.![]()
Frogliacci wrote:
Your issue though is one created by available materials. A huge percentage of 1st ed stuff was printed for and about Avistan with only sampler looks at outside regions. Thus the real reason Ap were set up to begin in Avistan and feature Avistani characters is because that's where all your options were. I've said before that the next Tian AP should start somewhere in Tian, and I still hold to that, but it's going to require support materials from Paizo to give you the depth you need to make your local PC's feel part of the setting and the setting feel like home to them. ![]()
Eliandra Giltessan wrote: So, I assumed Barzillai Thrune's edict against night tea was him imposing his values regarding when people should and should not drink caffeine on others. But one of my players pointed out to be that the Adventurers Armory has an herb called "night tea" that's brewed into a contraceptive. So is Thrune's proclamation really about birth control? I like your take better than the official answer. If/when I get around to doing HR I'll definitely steal it. ![]()
pjrogers wrote: Wounded Wisp has a whole section on The Shrine of the Fallen, and it seems that folks are regularly trying and failing the Test of the Starstone. If I recall correctly there's a little group that tend and update a memorial to all the failed candidates quite close by. ![]()
Arachnofiend wrote:
I completely agree, Jade Regent takes too long to get to where you want to be. A future Tian Xia AP really needs to start somewhere in the region. ![]()
Darth Game Master wrote:
Yes and no. I mean Cheliax may have viewed Sargava as it's colony in the same way Taldor, still views Andoran, Galt, and Cheliax, as it's colonies but it wasn't actually still a colony as such, in the fact it was run by people who lived there without taking any notice of the home nations.Also I quite like the idea of historical colonies, it's a reminder of how greedy the old Taldor Empire and the more recent Chelish empire were/are.
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Kasoh wrote: I mean, they made a CR 25 creature in the Bestiary, and its only the first one printed. We'll see more high level monsters of which Tar-Baphon is undoubtedly one of. Lot's I expect, and I should imagine there will be some discussion about if/how to introduce some equivalent to mythic in 2e, and if they decide they will, you may not see the Tyrant's new stats until then. Also what's the CR 25 monster please? And was it that good in 1st ed? (I didn't move to 2e so I'm only looking at getting lore books now) ![]()
Rysky wrote: And that is where our tastes differ. Yeah we're always going to be at opposite ends of this one I think. Still, opinions are what keeps the board going, and for me learning. I've only been with PF for just over two years and there's a lot I didn't know or realise until I came to the boards. ![]()
The major thing I like to change is adding a decent amount of foreshadowing for major NPC's and major enemies who are not supposed to be a surprise before the party meets them. Even just a few rumours or name drops helps. For me this worked particularly well for Kingmaker and made my second time DMing it far more well received than my first. The main thing I like to take out on the other hand are the many Ap specific rules sub systems. I have a special dislike for the caravan system in Jade Regent, but the one in Hell's Rebels' doesn't fill me with joy either. ![]()
Neriathale wrote:
Do you not find all AP's have a weak book though? Even with my beloved Curse of the Crimson Throne I read bk 4 and thought 'er why'. Also, over here penguins are chocolate biscuits, and delicious! ![]()
Cori Marie wrote: Heroic sacrifices that accomplish the mission are a lot different from a generic TPK. Sturm Brightblade for example. Gandalf in Moria. The whole cast of Rogue One. It's obviously a trope you hate, but you're not the sole audience. With the exception of Sturm, those are books & films and even then DL leaned towards books made into modules and Sturm didn't have the rest of his party die with him and then have it called a win. There is, or should be, a different set of rules for modules, and although James Jacobs and others will not like me using this term again it requires putting the players and their characters ahead of the writers precious NPC. Every time. ![]()
Darth Game Master wrote:
My Cheliax is a little more Spain oriented than you would draw from the sourcebooks, although that probably comes from little more than where it is on the map. ![]()
Phillip Gastone wrote: Or just pick up Way of the Wicked for all your evil needs. I'm almost certainly going to be a minority of one here. But I thought way of the Wicked was pretty poor and that as an adventure Hells Vengeance is a better AP. I'm by no means saying I loved HV, it's not really my thing, I like to root for the good guys. But if I had to pick one, HV over WotW every time ![]()
Cori Marie wrote: "Feels like" is very subjective. I for one would not feel that this ending is a loss for my character, nor a win for the bad guy. You obviously do, and that's fine. Not every AP is for everyone. I had no desire to play Skulls & Shackles or Hell's Vengeance, that doesn't make either AP a bad AP for those that did. To be fair most of my opinions are subjective, this is not the kind of thing you can really bring evidence to. I 100% take your point about not every AP is for everyone, but this one tends to divide opinions less along theme and setting and more along writers decisions. Again I'm the exception, I thought it was a pretty bad AP from book 1 before I knew the ending and really only collected it for a complete the set of 1st ed thing. ![]()
Cole Deschain wrote:
The power that was invented for him for this AP you mean and he didn't really need to cause the world a ton of trouble previously. I'm afraid I don't buy into any of the TG apologist points of view. If it feels like a loss for the PC's and a win for the bad guy then it probably is one. Maybe the Tyrant didn't achieve all his aims, but he's still kicking and the party are not. ![]()
CorvusMask wrote:
That's because your leaders keep secret the hobgoblin menace from the east (or west depending on your home country). Beware the green peril! ![]()
Even ignoring Geb himself, I think an AP set there would be a really tough ask for a party unless they were somehow either acting as or pretending to act as agents of either the state or a powerful in country sponsor. I'm not saying a tough AP would be a bad thing, but you may have to go in prepared to see PCs die if they make a wrong move. To me it would almost like being the resistance in a war movie if not played for evil. ![]()
CorvusMask wrote: I do sometimes feel like in 1e they could have cut art from cool action images to show more old school handout images. Though that might be some sort of weird nostalgia speaking since I have never played original D&D adventures, but I like "ooh retro" stuff whenever I read them through :D I would certainly have preferred a few less beautifully crafted full page spreads of Iconics in action in the story line in favour of NPC's or locations that the PC's will actually see and interact with. ![]()
Set wrote:
Or even just an ambitious would be successor. ![]()
Curse of the Crimson Throne for me too, it may be a little linear for some but it's a good story, the separate parts roll together nicely and it's got a couple of nice surprises for the PC party along the way. Kingmaker is a good story and with a bit of work in foreshadowing threats becomes very enjoyable. The Kingdom building mechanics are not to my taste, but I can disassociate that from the plotline in ranking the AP ![]()
A proper high fantasy Arabian Knight style adventure with evil wizards, flying carpets, genies and treasure of princely worth. All set in the heart of the Padishah Empire where you rise from commoner to national hero. I'd even be quite happy with "a rescue the prince from the evil wizard" adventure (it doesn't have to be a princess, royal young men can get captured too) ![]()
I was pondering in an idle moment what's going to happen next with Razmir.
Or be the focus of maybe a PFS story where we learn a bit more of what's going on with him and what he's plotting. Or do you think it will be a while before he crops up and nothing concrete is currently planned for him? Please chip in with your opinions of where, how or even you think Razmir is going to make an impression. ![]()
James Jacobs wrote:
Okay then James, thank you for at least noting my complaint even though you clearly don't agree. I wanted Paizo to understand that I and perhaps others saw an issue and now you do, so I'll leave it be. ![]()
Rysky wrote:
So Xanderghul can take a plot bullet but Sorshen can't? It could have just as easily been written in to give the PC's a crack at her tooI wouldn't
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Zaister wrote:
The evidence lies in her background and the history of Thassilon. Are you trying to suggest she was never a monster or are you arguing the party would not know it? ![]()
Rysky wrote:
1) So was Xanderghul but it was made so he could be killed by the party half way through the AP 2) really I'd assume by the time you're even part way through this AP without even touching on any research you'd have a pretty good idea how vile the runelords were. ![]()
vagrant-poet wrote:
What peculiar outburst. Are you suggesting then that everyone who visits another country is doing so out of colonial privilege, not tourism, not expanding their minds or any other reason that could equally apply to foreign adventurers, but because they think they should own it.![]()
Michael Sayre wrote:
When I asked you to stop being so precious with your NPC's it wasn't a confrontational thing or indeed patronizing. It was meant as a sincere plea not to keep making the same mistakes you have been making with NPC's in 1st edition. If no one ever has the stones to call out Paizo on this you will never know your customers find this an issue. Nowhere did I suggest on the way to victory players should not be challenged, forced to change their styles to survive, adapt, or face loss. However the object of the game is co-operative storytelling and in such a way that guarantees player satisfaction. For many that means a win and it certainly should never mean that an enemy or potential enemy NPC placed in an adventure be made untouchable for whatever reason. I have said this before and I will say it again and many adventure writers have offered this advice to starting DM's over the years too. If you do not want the party to kill your bad guy then do not put him in the adventure with the party. And that advice goes all the way back to Gygax and through many others since. And with that if you find me annoying, confrontational or patronising, I suggest you take a look at my user name. ![]()
Rysky wrote: There is info for if your party doesn't want to work with either and/or if they attack, but your characters aren't really coming across as Good if they attack Sorshen in Return. They also wouldn't survive that. And your last sentence, is the nature of my complaint. The other runelords are fair game but they do their level best to make sure even if you go after Sorshen you cannot get her. And why would they not be good, she is a monstrous evil with a list of crimes against humanity Genghis Khan would be proud of. At no time can you justify that she deserves to be let off just because "she isn't like that anymore" without it coming across as protecting the NPC ![]()
Rysky wrote: You did direct this to a Paizo employee. Yes because it was his opinion I was quoting, and his colleagues that are responsible for the matter in question. There would be little point in addressing such a complaint to fellow board members attention as they have no control over what's published.![]()
Rysky wrote:
Why do they need to be allies at all? They are clearly NPC's the characters should be opposed to based on the mindset of a good party. Introducing such characters if you're going to writer armour them just leaves an unsatisfactory feeling. I'm not saying you have to kill them but the option should be there to allow you to do so, and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that some will want to.I'm harking back a couple of years now but I think you can kill Vordecai permanently in Kingmaker, but other than Carrion Crown I'm not sure I can recall fighting another lich, not that I've played or Dm'd every AP ![]()
Rysky wrote:
We're never going to agree on whether the ending of bk 6 was sufficient reward for the party or not. Being nuked isn't so bad when you can come back from it. And I would also like to disagree whole heartedly with your second point. The Whispering Tyrant is one of several too precious NPC's Sorshen and Noticula also spring to mind. Even up to and including the fact that Return of the Runelords was written in such a way to protect Sorshen from having to fight the PC's And liches have been killed before, especially while they're reforming. It's only impossible because the writers say so. ![]()
I thought Ruins of Azlant was the last decent AP, it's not perfect but I'd certainly run it and I intend to at some point. I have a couple of issues with War For the Crown that left me feeling largely dissatisfied with the whole thing. But I won't bore you at length details of my personal dislikes of it here (I can always bore you somewhere else instead) My problem with Return was very similar to Dracovar, I wanted to be able to kill all of the Runelords and finish the AP with a full set accounted for. I felt cheated out of Sorshen's much deserved demise at the partys hands through what is essentially writer armour. That should have prepared me for Tyrant's Grasp where Writer Armour overshadows the whole book and spoils what could have been a great finale to 1st ed. ![]()
Michael Sayre wrote:
Please stop being so precious with your NPC's, particularly this one. THE ultimate point of the game is for the PC's to defeat every single one of your bad guys and then queue up for the next lot that comes along. This BBEG has already suffered from a severe case of writers armour, please don't make it any worse. ![]()
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Why yes I did, thank you for asking. I am hoping for a setting that features an expy of the native people of what is now the USA and also southern Canada, but stopping short of the area that now comprises Central America.Also well done for working out that America, which is how the USA is commonly referred to abroad, can also be misconstrued to mean the entire continent for pedantic purposes although sadly not amusing ones. ![]()
Zi Mishkal wrote:
You know what, this is a message board for people's opinions, including those other than your own, but no one is going to come to your house in the middle of the night and make you read them. ![]()
Ron Lundeen wrote: Arcadia is enormous. We have much, much more to say about it than the few locations we've already shared. If there's something you wish Arcadia had that you haven't seen, keep in mind you haven't seen all of it! So there is still hope for a Native American part of Arcadia then. You have reinvigorated my interest good sir ![]()
![]() On criticizing people who haven't played it: I agree that people who have played the system have a more valid opinion of how things work, but I also think that the "initial read" is important. It's worth pointing out that putting together an RPG session takes effort and buy-in from a group. I love to try new RPG systems. There are tons and tons of systems that I'd like to try but will probably never in my life play because most of the gamers I know are not this way, they find a system that works for them and then heavily resist trying anything new for even a single session unless they think it is very likely it will increase their fun. I think 5e casting is a good example of how to tone down power while keeping things fun. Caster/martial balance was bothering some players. 5e nerfed casting overall but still gave casters some fun things that 3.5/PF casters couldn't do and even buffed some spells (like Prestidigitation!), so even the players who liked to play casters were intrigued and willing to give it a try. So what can my PF2 wizard do that my PF1 wizard can't? It seems the main answer is "avoid overshadowing others". Which is all well and good, but it's not very sexy if you like to play wizards. ![]()
![]() I think the simple explanation is that a race represents having certain innate talents, but talent is nothing without training (i.e. experience). Just as being an Olympian requires both a certain level of talents/genetics and a lot of training. You might have the world's greatest swimmer's body, but if you seldom jump in a pool, it doesn't count for much. Dwarves are taught to hate giants, and taught stories about the weaknesses of giants their whole lives, but to a growing dwarf, those are just stories. Once the dwarf starts to learn about the hack and slash of combat, and begins to see how justified those hatreds are, he finally understands the importance of those lessons and how they can be applied to the chaotic hack and slash of combat. Many half-orcs have low-light vision, but developing this into darkvision is harder for them than pure-blooded orcs. It takes training, practice, focus, and discipline, and when they're among ordinary folk, they don't really feel the need to develop it. Only once they start adventuring do they appreciate how truly dark and full of terrors the night can be and find it within themselves to develop this latent talent. ![]()
![]() The point of Signature Skills is clearly to maintain some semblance of class vs. cross-class skills. You had to invest resources (e.g. a trait) to make a PF1 character proficient in a cross-class skill. The idea is that a typical Rogue has an easier time learning how to sneak or pickpocket than a typical Cleric, which I think most people would agree this is iconic to D&D as a system, even if we also celebrate having tools to break out of that mold. So maybe part of the problem is just not having those tools. Now whether Signature Skills is the right way to implement this, I'm not sure. I can see the concerns. Maybe one idea: you can spend a skill upgrade to make a non-Signature skill into a Signature skill. I do agree with the complaint about imbalance of skill picks. As a frequent Cleric player, I'm ecstatic about finally having 5 skills and finally knowing more about my deity than the average man on the street, but I don't see why the Fighter can't have just as many. ![]()
![]() Lay on Hands has a Somatic component, which gives it the Manipulate trait. The Manipulate trait provokes attacks of opportunity (from the apparent minority of creatures that now have that ability). So for practical purposes, Warded Touch reads "Lay on Hands no longer provokes attacks of opportunity". ![]()
![]() Agree that Colette is making some leaps in tone. I'd be more speculative right now. But speaking of Fighters and archetypes, I wonder if Fighter Dedication might be borderline must-have for a lot of classes. For an investment of just 2 class feats, it seems a caster can become fairly competent at weapon-based fighting. This might become a lot like Longarms proficiency + specialization in Starfinder, which were almost essential for casters to pull their weight in combat. Fighter Dedication does seem to outstrip most of the caster Feats that improve their weapon. Abilities like the Cleric's Deadly Simplicity, Channel Smite, Align Armament. Or the Sorcerer/Wizard's Magical Striker. The offset to this is that they'll have to invest some resources in their weapon to keep up with the Cantrip scaling. I don't have a sense of how big a tax on resources that is. ![]()
![]() I'm generally with Xenocrat. I think it's a misnomer to call this linear/quadratic when really the "problem" seems to be that martials are better at fighting and casters are better at utility and support. The classic linear/quadratic problem was that late-game casters dominate both in and out of combat. The classic problem that casting overpowers skill monkeying in the late game might still sort of be here, but maybe in a weaker form. But that problem is really tough to solve entirely without making magic feel weak. ![]()
![]() As others have pointed out, melee drones tend to suffer but can be viable, for certain meanings of "viable". After all, they are still a body with a reasonable attack bonus that can carry a weapon. And if you have relatively few encounters per day, then even if they die every encounter, that's not so bad. It does suck if you have 4 encounters and they die on the first though. The melee drone tends to suffer from four issues: 1. Lower AC than a proper tank, even with the Armor mod. 2. Less HP than even a 10-CON Technomancer (SP+HP). 3. They are extremely difficult to heal. 4. Drones suffer from action economy issues, and melee characters need to move + attack more often than ranged characters. Also, unlike Soldiers or Solarians, they never get options like a standard action charge. ![]()
![]() I second Porridge's idea giving flexibility on when to take Archetype powers (and what class powers to give up). Though my thought would be to maybe expand the list of class features that can be given up. So maybe an Envoy could give up an Expertise Talent instead of an Improvisation, for example, in exchange for gaining a 2nd level archetype power at level 3. But I guess that could make the balance challenge even greater. Good observation on Cache Capacitor. I think this is by far the worst ability that can be swapped out with an Archetype, and practically every 6th-level Archetype feature is better. Cache Capacitor 1 (the only one relevant to SFS) is bad enough that you may never make use of it, as you have to weigh the feature against the opportunity cost: a 1st level spell slot (and spell known). ![]()
![]() Deranged Stabby-Man wrote:
Whoa, calling the Fabricate hacks "borderline mandatory" is pretty strong. I don't think they're necessarily even optimal, though they're certainly viable. Much of the time a TM should be able to do better things in combat than spend a round and a top-tier spell creating a short-lived weapon. As for Fabricate Tech, its viability probably depends on the GM and the campaign. I wouldn't expect it to be very good in SFS. OTOH in a more open-ended campaign, it can be be pretty handy. Some GMs might even be lenient enough to allow some broken abuses, since it is pretty open-ended. Overall, I think the Spell Hacks support a few different viable approaches, which is really the best we can hope for at this stage. ![]()
![]() MatthewHudson wrote:
I think you hit the nail on the head here. Full Actions consuming your Swift is seeming more and more like a bad rule change. Is there some specific abuse that it's meant to prevent? A lot of swift actions are investments of resources to reduce a move to a swift (examples are Kip Up / Ysoki and various methods of quick drawing). Is it fun to say, "Actually, in this situation where you want to do that thing quickly that you built your character to be able to do quickly, it will not actually help you do it more quickly in any practical way?" |